Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 thorhauge Dec 24, 2012 5:03:16	Hey all, First of all, I posted this in the "What's a player to do" thread since I didn't know any better. It definitely fits better here. Previous post: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... Basically, I am with a group of five people in total all of which are new to D&D, but with a seasoned DM. With my limited knowledge of D&D I know very little of optimization and the limitations of frameset of the rules. My idea is to make a stealthy character who opens combat with sneak attacks and handles open combat with a dual wield, enhancing his combat abilties primarily with touch attacks to paralyze, drain life and damage opponents. Browsing through the books an overwhelming amount of options appear, with combinations of various classes and prestige classes. I have sort of thought that starting up as a rogue to level 2 for lots of skill points, evasion and trapfinding would be useful and then multiclassing to Duskblade picking up Able Learner to keep Rogue skills high since the group doesn't have any other skillmonkey or trapfinder. Other possible options include combinations of either or none of these with; Beguiler Factotum Swordsage Daggerspell Mage Unseen Seer Arcane Trickster ... and many others So the idea was to create a stealthy, dual wielding character with hints of touch spells sprinkled in, in open combat. Any advice or even telling me it isn't possible will be appreciated. Remember, I don't have any experience whatsoever with D&D previously but the group and myself are looking very much forward to our first session. Thanks in advance      Thorhauge
#2 draco1119 Dec 24, 2012 6:42:27	How tied to actually casting spells are you? The Swordsage (Tome of Battle) could easily be flavored as its maneuvers being spells (especially Desert Wind & Shadow Hand schools). That would also allow you to take the Shadow Blade feat, which adds your Dex mod to damage. Able Learner is Human & Doppelgänger only (though Illumians, changelings, and arguably half-elves & half-orcs can also use it), but more importantly, it's 1st-level only.
#3 thorhauge Dec 24, 2012 7:31:17	Thanks for your reply, I was thinking that, spells would be a nice complement to melee combat, adding to efficiency - but not becoming the main source of damage. The Swordsage looks really interesting as far as a fighter/caster hybrid in one base class. I am a little concerned that they don't seem to be able to integrate spells into an attack as with the Daggerspell Mage's Daggercast and the Duskblade's Arcane Channeling. They also don't seem to have stealth-play incorporated, but I guess I could multiclass myself out of that by starting off as a rogue? Thanks again for your input - I will be home again after 2 days away for christmas
#4 Andarious-Rosethorn Dec 24, 2012 9:07:34	Sword sages get Hide and Move silently as class skills, they get the Shadow Hand discipline which covers a lot of stealth as well (Cloak of Deception= 1 round duration swift improved invisibility). They also don't really cast spells at all but use supernatural abilities which are often very similar to spells. Some of these indeed combine a "spell" with an attack, like Salamander Charge and many other Desert Wind maneuvers, not to mention various Shadow Hand maneuvers. That said, if what you want is Stealth, Melee Combat and Magic your best bet may be Rogue/Wiz/Unseen Seer. Bard can do this shockingly well also, it just takes some digging for the right spells.
#5 StevenO Dec 24, 2012 13:16:01	Although it may not always be the most desirable thing another way to keep Rogue skills up is to just take a level in classes with those skills occasionally.  While you can only buy skill for the class you are levelling in at the class rate there is NOTHING that says you can only buy one rank each level; this means that a level of Rogue could let you add +4 ranks (or potentially more) to two different skills.
#6 draco1119 Dec 24, 2012 23:50:05	I'm impressed, CJ. That was actually helpful, and almost not dickish.
#7 thorhauge Dec 25, 2012 13:00:16	I get the feeling I should feel privileged to avoid the flaming of Cyclone_Joker. Merry christmas, CJ. Thanks for the advice people - it's super helpful. I am not to keen on Factotum. It does seem to be a bit of a more jack-of-all-trades as opposed to a melee character with some minor (touch) magic sprinkled in. (As with the duskblade for instance) It also doesn't seem like a stealth oriented character, so I am unsure how I could guide it in the direction of a stealth-oriented character with a touch of magic. I am liking the Swordsage. The Shadow Hand maneuvers look really cool. This is a melee character with some minor magical abilties to enhance performance. To top it off he/she also has stealth abilties. I am guessing the swordsage does not have an arcane level and as such wouldn't let me qualify for Daggerspell Mage. How about starting up the first two levels as rogue? (Have mercy CJ) to gain trapfinding, evasion and sneak attack which seems to have decent synergy with a lot of the shadow hand maneuvers. Also, I believe I have heard Rogues are great at the first levels to gain a lot of skillpoints. So how about a mostly Swordsage minor Rogue build?
#8 draco1119 Dec 25, 2012 13:53:37	If you insist on going Rogue, never EVER take even levels.
#9 thorhauge Dec 25, 2012 14:01:32	I just figured stopping at level 2 to gain evasion as well, but nothing more would be ok, but you feel the subsequent sneak attacks would be too strong to neglect? I do not insist on being a rouge, I just figured that the shadow hand school and perhaps the Gloom Razor feat from Tome of Battle would synergize well with sneak attacks. But you also feel strongly against including rogue?
#10 thorhauge Dec 25, 2012 14:46:36	Duuuuude, I think I just started comprehending factotum on another level. I can make intelligence bonuses to Dex (and Str) abilties like move silently? I can also gain Iajitsu Focus which is basically a sneak attack? Arcane Dilletante will allow me to cast spells... I am Dire Straits, however. The DM would rather I start up as a class from Player's Handbook 3.5E. This is understandable due to the fact that all of us are newbs and it'd be a lot simpler for everyone. It sounds to me, like anything but a rogue would do from your viewpoint...
#11 Lashius Dec 25, 2012 15:06:56	My suggestion would be to play a bard if the DM wants you to stay within the core books and since your new. The mechanics of a bard will cover a few bases that will teach you a lot. It gets decent skills and base skill points without relying on intel to get them (which will help teach you how to prioritize your skill points well still giving you a little variety), it has decent (if not minor) spell casting capacity. It has average base attack which is a bit of a downside, but if you utilize bardic music effectively that should be somewhat negate it. Most importantly your class options aid in teaching a person decent teamwork tactics. Over all there are more powerful options, but bard should give you a decent amount to work with well teaching you the ropes.
#12 draco1119 Dec 25, 2012 18:48:50	Well, all he said was that the base class had to be core, and variants weren't allowed. It would seem that feats & such from splatbooks are ok.