Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 bibbiri Mar 19, 2013 8:16:03	so in our team my role is the melee-dps with some back-up utilities (buffs mostly). I was aiming at a cleric with this setting: starting from level 3, cleric lesser aasimar with feral template (so actually a level 6 character who payed the cost of LA) this is the situation so far: S.Points: 28 - balance concentration 6 craft  6(armorsmith) craft 6 (weaponsmith) *handle animal diplomacy heal intimidate jump knowledge history religion 4  arcane planes *nobility royalty* martial lore profession spellcraft ride 6 for 16 dex 12 cos 16 int 12 wis 16  car 15 1 crusader  (worldly focus) 2 crusader 3 crusader - cleric 1 (practiced spellcaster) 4  cleric 5 cleric - bone knight 1 6 bone knight 7 bone knight 8 bone knight 9 bone knight 10 bone knight 11 bone knight 12 bone knight 13 bone knight 14 bone knight - sovereign speaker 15 sovereign speaker 16 sovereign speaker 17 sovereign speaker 18 sovereign speaker - ordained champion (heironeus) 19 ordained champion              20 ordained champion i wanted to dump all extra dominions (air, travel etc. i don't know if i can say so in this language) for talents as i switch divinity. the problem now is that i don't know at all what talent i should be taking excpet for the ones at level 1-3, any idea?
#2 Seeron Mar 19, 2013 9:04:29	Always a good starting point for feat selection is the cleric Handbook: www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=123... For the feats: The "standard" route for melee clerics is extend, persistent and then Divine Metamagic:persistent. With that, you can have your melee spells on all day. Power Attack is nearly a must on any melee. Especially when you get 4th level spells and Divine Power with it. Also, trade cleric in for Cloistered Cleric from Unearthed Arcana. With only 3 levels, you wont loose much HP instead gaining the Knowledge Domain (or more likely the Knowledge Devotion Feat). BAB won't matter much for you anyway cause of the spell Divine Power. With your Deity, you will have problems, cause Sovereign Speaker demands to worship the complete Pantheon, while Ordained Champion explictly states only Heironeus or Hextor, neither of them being part of the Pantheon. So speak with your DM for allowing it. When you have access to such a huge number of Domains, Spontaneous Domains is really, really awesome, giving you a huge versatility in spells. Some of the Domains could be traded in for the matching Devotion feat, best Travel, Law and Animal(dont have the Domains of the Pantheon in my mind, so could be, that they dont offer all of them).
#3 bibbiri Mar 19, 2013 9:28:48	i based many choices on that handbook indeed i just lack the game experience with this class :< the deity part is a bit of exploit: since i'm changing i've arranged a deal with my DM saying that i'm trading all the domains i wouldn't know with heironeus for talents. i remember that the sovereign speaker pantheon gives access to all domains or like 10+ so i really don't know what to take. also if i recall it right, i can take only warrior or warrior-like talents.
#4 draco1119 Mar 19, 2013 9:34:47	If you're going crusader and cleric, you should take the crusader levels later, and you should really, REALLY think about using the Ruby Knight Vindicator. Also... Just how many different pantheons does your game use?! The Sovereign Host is world-specific, while Heironeous & Hextor (and Wee Jas) aren't part of that world.
#5 bibbiri Mar 19, 2013 10:10:56	custom setting containing every sort of divinity created, the story behind the multiple divinities is to be explained through the campaign since our DM said it would cover leveling from 1 to XX. like a sort of total war among pantheons and followers not realizing they are (mostly) saying the same thing using different words. i went crusader for the thicket since i'll be playing spear-shield or 2H spear melee-ish.
#6 frost.fire Mar 19, 2013 10:11:57	I wouldn't worry too much about domains just yet. Obviously for feats I would aim to meet your preqs since your trying to make quite a few prcs. I would on your first free feat take power attack. That way you can pump out impressive damage with a sexy 2 hander. Then I would look into the obvious divine metamagic and extend spell when you can. This looks very similiar to a character I'm actually building in a campagin. Which is a paladin 4/cleric 1/ binder 1/ divine crusader/soverign speaker. Which is just a melee monster character that has a str/cha focus. Its not super optimized or broken but its fun to play due to options and decent damage output.
#7 draco1119 Mar 19, 2013 10:13:54	You won't get Thicket that way, bro. Cleric 4/Crusader 1/Cleric +2/Crusader +1 is how you do that. And, again, RKV is a really good option. It's full casting, full turning, and full maneuver progression.
#8 frost.fire Mar 19, 2013 10:39:12	If you are willing to change the flavour ruby knight vindicator is definitly a positive undertaking for your character. It is probably better then bone knight if you aren't planning on focusing on undead. That being said it will be better then soverign speaker and ordained champion assuming your set on bone knight. But this will also fix your problem of 18 bajillion pantheons.
#9 frost.fire Mar 19, 2013 10:42:58	If you are willing to change the flavour ruby knight vindicator is definitly a positive undertaking for your character. It is probably better then bone knight if you aren't planning on focusing on undead. That being said it will be better then soverign speaker and ordained champion assuming your set on bone knight. But this will also fix your problem of 18 bajillion pantheons.
#10 bibbiri Mar 19, 2013 10:58:41	i remember skills were only prerewuisite to meet and i have pallend it already some lines up in my first post. EDIT to first post: i noticed now the mistake, my ctrl-v failed. our DM considers every multiclassing/ prestige-classing happening in the middle of a level, so i would get thicket of blades at 3rd level. For every parameter adjustmen the new class is taken into account but the previous class is considered raised by 1 level. I'm taking the bone knight for the uber-pg condition. i've always liked the immune-to-all thingy. so: - i'm taking metamagic and persisted talents; - power attack; - the 2 talents i listed; what else? i have like 10 talents that i can take from fighter list after change to ordained champion.
#11 EruditeApe Mar 19, 2013 11:33:59	Bone Knight is crap. Well, unless you're a Pally or the Twice-Betrayer. If you want crusader, go RKV or drop crusader. Remember the First Commandment? Thou Shall Not Lose Caster Levels.Sovereign Speaker sucks here, drop it.   Now you want to get actually good classes. Dweomerkeeper is a good start. Frog God's Fane makes Divine Oracle pretty pro, too. Just, seriously, don't lose caster levels until after you're level 17. Also drop the LA. Buyoff or no, Feral is awful on any caster that's not totally Wis-SAD.
#12 draco1119 Mar 19, 2013 11:35:54	How do you get Thicket at 3rd level? It's a 3rd-level maneuver, which requires an initiator level of FIVE. Also, how are you buying off a +3 LA at level 6? You can't even buy off the first part of that until level 9.
#13 frost.fire Mar 19, 2013 11:59:59	He said he's using lesser aasimar but paying the la for it and feral is la 1 which means he's only got a total of 2 anyway since aasimar is only one iirc
#14 bibbiri Mar 19, 2013 12:00:44	lesser aasimar has no LA, only +1 from template. about the thicket, the tome speaks about maneuvers and stances and the requirement table speaks of maneuvers, so i assumed it was another thing, i'll make a change in crusader leveling. @erudite: i took a talent for keeping caster level even with character's. those 2 classes make the character too caster- oriented. EDIT: i can't change thread name, can't i? i realized jsut now how misleading the title is...
#15 EruditeApe Mar 19, 2013 14:25:25	First off, what the hell do you mean by "talent?" Second, no. Improving CL doesn't give you higher level spells. So don't lose caster levels.
#16 draco1119 Mar 19, 2013 14:41:16	EA, I think he's ESL, and "talent" is the closest translation to feat in his language. Just a guess, though. @OP: what EA said. There are limited times when losing casting levels is ok (Gish qualification comes to mind), but you keep that minimized.
#17 EruditeApe Mar 19, 2013 14:46:30	@OP: what EA said. There are limited times when losing casting levels is ok (Gish qualification comes to mind), but you keep that minimized. The issue is, one does not lose caster levels unnecessarily, like here, and one only does it when there's serious synergy, like Sorcadins or RKV. And one never, ever, under any circumstances, loses 9s.
#18 bibbiri Mar 19, 2013 16:19:20	i completely forgot talenti = feats, it's just too normal for me to think of talents (instead of feats) since the meaning is literally the one used in my language and also the concept is the same. however, since i get multi classes and prestige classes mid level from the current level (sort of gaining to levels at once), when the newly acquired class would give me no +1 to existing etc etc. i still have the level acquired from the previous class. the issue should regard only crusader but i guess i should just drop it. i honestly thought that practiced spellcaster was a way to bypass the delay in learning new spell caused by crusader levels.
#19 Seeron Mar 19, 2013 16:33:26	Just an idea, that came to my mind, while I was sitting in the train. What about a Human Cloistered Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 3/Crusader1/RKV X rough build would be:  1 - Cleric: Domains: Planning, Knowledge, one of own Choise; Extend Spell(Planning domain), Persitant Spell, Divine Metamagic: Persitant. 2 - Cleric: Nothing. 3 - Cleric: Power Attack. Collectors of all Stories Skilltrick 4 - Church Inquisitor(CI); Knowledge Devotion(instead of Inquisiton Domain), Detect Evil 5 -  CI: immune to Charms 6 -  CI: Pierce Illusions; Power Attack. 7 - Crusader: Furious counterstrike, steely resolve;                      Maneuver: 1 Devoted Spirit(best Foehammer), rest open                     Stances:  Iron Guard's Glare or Martial Spirit 8 - Ruby Knight Vindicator: Thicket of Blades And so on After RKV, finish off with full casting PRCs. You will then get 9th on lvl 20,  loosing 3 BAB early on, but you have Knowledge Devotion for that. and later on you have Divine Power persitant anyway. Also every class has at least 4+int skillpoints. The first 3 levels you are really squichy, cause of the d4 HD.
#20 EruditeApe Mar 19, 2013 17:19:03	Seeron is right on the money here. That's pretty much one of the best builds of RKV that doesn't involve Ur-Priest. I would like to note though, that you messed up. KnowDev is achieved at level 1 by forfieting the knowledge domain. Pretty good deal on a gish.
#21 bibbiri Mar 19, 2013 17:31:24	call me fanboy, but this whole thing spun around my interest in playing a bone knight(-ed) character with cleric utilities.
#22 draco1119 Mar 19, 2013 17:47:54	In that case, Tempest came up with a Cleric/Prestige Paladin/Bone Knight that works better than what you're doing.
#23 Seeron Mar 20, 2013 0:50:34	Ea i kept knowledge domain, for still having all knowledges as class skills, while leveling cloistered cleric
#24 bibbiri Mar 20, 2013 6:47:16	nice, do you remember what is called that optimization? i'll make a custom search in the meanwhile. EDIT: i found the gestalt NPC build and nothing else, tempest talked about a lord of the fallen for a pc version but i guess it's still not out.
#25 EruditeApe Mar 20, 2013 15:07:55	Ea i kept knowledge domain, for still having all knowledges as class skills, while leveling cloistered cleric Why bother? Especially since it obviously has them anyways.
#26 draco1119 Mar 20, 2013 15:30:36	My motherboard took a dump last week, so I can only post from my phone right now. If nobody else can find it, I'll try to link it Friday when I go to the library. It's not in his Pps Showcase; it's in a thread started by someone else, and it's from ~12-15 months ago.
#27 bibbiri Mar 20, 2013 17:02:05	oh ok sorry, i thought it was from the showcase. then i'll make another search tomorrow and include also those other threads, thx for the tip.
#28 Seeron Mar 20, 2013 18:31:09	its no deep impact, but so is inquisition. and cloi. cleric say "and all Knowledge skills (from the Knowledge domain, see below)." so without knowledge domain, they wont get the knowledges. they will still have arcana, religion and the planes, so all important ones.
#29 bibbiri Mar 21, 2013 6:38:47	@draco: found it.
#30 draco1119 Mar 21, 2013 7:06:10	Since the PP is from Unearthed Arcana, you may have to run it by your DM (although if it's in the SRD, it should be automatically allowed). The real problem is if you're trying to be a non-LG paladin, though that should only take some tweaking.
#31 bibbiri Mar 21, 2013 10:49:32	hmm not at all, i see both builds can fit almost every alignment but true neutral. still, i don't enjoy mounted combat much.
#32 draco1119 Mar 21, 2013 11:30:21	Then don't use it. Just because you can doesn't mean you have to. Either way, your mount isn't there if you don't want it to be.
#33 bibbiri Mar 21, 2013 14:13:25	so i'll just change that couple of feats that involve mounted combat
#34 draco1119 Mar 21, 2013 14:32:08	Unless they're prereqs, of course. They might be, since the paladin (and bone knight) get a "horse" as a class feature.
#35 EruditeApe Mar 24, 2013 16:36:59	its no deep impact, but so is inquisition. and cloi. cleric say "and all Knowledge skills (from the Knowledge domain, see below)." so without knowledge domain, they wont get the knowledges. they will still have arcana, religion and the planes, so all important ones. It really doesn't matter. It still says you have all knowledge skills. That's really all that matters.
#36 Seeron Mar 24, 2013 17:42:56	ok. again we found a point of "ask your DM". both interpretations could be possible.
#37 EruditeApe Mar 24, 2013 20:12:00	Actually the rules themselves are incredibly clear. It makes even more sense logically, as swapping out the feat or no, the cleric is still a cloistered guy. But, sure, ask the DM I guess.