Character Help 3.5 - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Character Help 3.5

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
casus
Aug 05, 2010 1:43:08 Okay. So, my character died and im starting a new one this week.

Here are the stats I rolled: 17, 17, 16, 14, 13, 10.

I prefer not to play races with ECL.

I am starting level 5.

Would like to play either a Melee damage machine or a Melee Tank.

Can anyone suggest a level 1-20 build with feats and some tactics? I have never been very good at this aspect and usually just try to stay alive and not kill the party.

We have all core books and most complete. We also have some of the others like UE, BoED, and Spell compendium etc. If we don't have it i can probably ask our DM if we can research a feat/game mechanic.

Please help. I need a decent build by Sunday.
#2
casus
Aug 05, 2010 1:56:41 Almost forgot. Party make-up is a Mage, Druid, and a Paladin (played by a new guy.)

Was playing Cleric before and we all agreed that we don't necessarily need a cleric for healing because we employ the "cleric in a bag" mentality by purchasing wands for the druid. I am not opposed to playing a cleric again but need more help playing it better than I was (took a 2 level fighter dip which I have come to find out is unnecessary.)
#3
Senevri
Aug 05, 2010 8:04:32 Hm. Okay, here's what I'll suggest.

Half-orc,
Stats: STR 17->19 Dex 13 Con 16 Int 14->12 Wis 10 Cha 17->15.

*edit* You could also totally be a Wood Elf, which is +2 STR, +2 DEX, -2 CON, -2 INT, in which case you'd put 17 on CON, 16 on INT and 14 on CHA. Your first stat-up would go to Con and the second to STR.

Build: Barb 1/Bard 4.

I suggest Extra Rage for a first level feat, if possible. not sure of prereqs.

You're a raging barbarian, with decent HP, which should be fun.
Bard nets you spells:
1st : nothing in Core, but Spell Compendium has: Shock and Awe, Inspirational Boost, Improvisation, Beastland Ferocity and Critical Strike to choose from. This already gives you up to +4 to hit, +2 to damage, if 2 rounds for inspirational boost + improvisation. Shock And Awe is something you might want to use every time you get the chance. Beastland Ferocity will keep you fighting 'til death, and even grant another +4 enhancement to your STR.

2nd: Mirror Image, Alter Self, Also Rage, but it's underwhelming by comparison. SpC has so many nice things, too. War Cry, Whirling Blade, Tactical Precision,

Feat-wise, consider melodious casting and song of the white raven (which doesn't play well with inspirational boost, but would give you access to +1 atk, damage in every combat).
----
Okay, so you're a Barb 1/Bard 4 with a fun bag of tricks, now what?
Dragon Disciple. 4 levels.
- medium BAB, d12 HD, +2 nat AC, +4 STR meaning +1 to hit over full BAB, and 2 points of damage, 3 points two-handed. Also, three spell slots.
So now, you have, presuming you put one point in STR by now, and let's say the other went to dex:
STR 24(28 raging) Dex 14 Con 16(20 raging) Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 15.
HP: 79=12+4d12+4d6+27
Effectively no penalty to AC in rage thanks to +2 nat AC.
Attack of +14 by default, so in practice...
let's see, +14, +2 bard song, +2 improvisation, +1 mwk weapon, enhancement to STR...
+21 to hit, total. Damage would be around 2d6+18 or so, per hit, with BAB of +7, so two hits, even. And of course, a high AB means more points for power attack to sack, so your maximum damage and minimum to-hit would be +14, at 2d6+32 damage. At that rate, it'll take you three hits to down a CR 9 opponent, and you have a 50% chance to hit. Without power attack, you should hit CR 9 on a roll of 2, fully buffed, or on a roll of 4 presuming a +2 STR item.

Okay, so, we're in a good spot right now, but it's all downhill from here, right?
Not quite, there are few (by which I mean, lots) of options to go from here.
With ToB, you can get tons and tons of fun by just dipping warblade and crusader, including some decent healing.
With Song of White Raven, warblade and crusader levels would even stack with Bard for inspire courage, meaning WB 2/Crusader 2, or 4 of either, would put you at +2, another point to hit and damage.

You can't pick Earth Spell without getting your WIS to 13, but if you do, you'll still qualify for Sublime Chord for Rebuild, even! This would allow you to play screw the reality with other broken classes, if that's your thing.

Oh, a level of crusader or warblade and you qualify for Jade Phoenix Mage, and I believe, Abjurant Champion, for what it's worth.

If no ToB, you could even just dip Fighter to get the feats to go Frenzied Berserker, and - especially with Steadfast Determination - you probably wouldn't even murder your party, what with +8 to Will save, and +5 from Con - you'd succeed on DC 15 on a roll of 2.
----
But, that's getting ahead of meself. A single level of Warblade, and you could get goodies like Blood in the Water (which is very orc, and very barbarian, as well as an awesome stance), you could even reach Iron Heart Surge at this point, or go for Emerald Razor for that maximum Power Attack, or just get Sudden Leap and Charging Minotaur, both very fun and useful. ( with your STR, charging minotaur will easily fling weaker opponents several squares away. )
#4
casus
Aug 05, 2010 20:30:14 That's a very interesting idea. Anyone else have any suggestions?
#5
spiral_rider_h
Aug 05, 2010 21:07:16 If you want a melee monster, I do have this idea for a monk. It works best as an Illumian from Races of Destiny, but a human could probably pull it off, too. Also, you'd have to see if your DM will allow the character to worship Tem-Et-Nu from Sandstorm. It gives access to the War domain, allows you to remain Lawful (Neutral), and requires you eventually get Weapon Focus with a kama so you can enter Divine Crusader (which is a weapon monks are proficient with). Without further ado:

Monk 6/Fist of the Forest 3/Divine Crusader 1/Sacred Fist 10

If you go the Illumian route, the Illumian word combinations of Vauluur or Uurkrau. I'd probably suggest Uurkrau so you can dump Charisma.

For stats I'd suggest Str 14, Dex 17, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 17, Cha 10, and get your Dexterity up to 19 by the time you'd qualify for your ninth level spell slot.

Feat selection is:

1 - Great Fortitude (for Fist of the Forest), Stunning Fist (monk bonus Feat)
2 - Combat Reflexes (monk bonus Feat)
3 - Power Attack (for Fist of the Forest)
6 - Weapon Focus (kama) (for Divine Crusader), Improved Disarm (monk bonus Feat)
9 - Combat Casting (for Sacred Fist)
12 - Weapon Finesse
15 - Holy Warrior
18 - Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike)

The monk bonus feat Improved Disarm isn't required for anything in the build, so if you want to take something different, you can feel free. Unearthed Arcana has some interesting options in that regard. (edited for miscommunication of information)

The downsides to this build are that feats are mostly tied up for getting into prestige classes (of particular note is the Weapon Focus, since you can't even use manufactured weapons after becoming a Sacred Fist), and it gets more mileage out of the "Text trumps table" rule. That rule is listed on any printed errata, but DM word is law.

But what you get is: Con to AC, ability to hit incorporeal undead, 4d8+Str modifier+9 damage per attack, six attacks with a flurry of blows, and full access to spells from the War domain. Oh, and your lowest base save (Will) is still +11 before Feats, equipment, or ability modifiers.

Just something to consider. I've got other ideas if you don't like this one.
#6
casus
Aug 05, 2010 23:10:15 Another great idea. Never played a monk before and it could be fun.

Wondering if anyone has a heavy armor damage pumper or a tank.

I definitely have some good ideas to look at already though.
#7
dandu
Aug 05, 2010 23:25:50
Another great idea. Never played a monk before and it could be fun.

Be sure to stock up on partially charged wands.
#8
casus
Aug 05, 2010 23:59:22 Okay. You got me. Why?
#9
Senevri
Aug 06, 2010 4:47:21 So you can pretend to be a wizard. T_T
You MUST be illumian as divine crusader casts from Charisma.
Still, not bad, +14 damage from Sacred Flames, you get Wis+Con to AC, you have the base fist damage of a 19th-level monk, (+INA), and while Divine Crusader doesn't give you _that_ much, it does power holy warrior, which is another +9 to damage. So, that's 4d8+2+23 damage per hit, naked, with Sacred Flames

Your flurry pattern is bite/hit/hit before iteratives. Rather decent.

However! This matures rather late! You don't get Holy Warrior before 15th, nor Sacred Flames before 14th. You're going to hate life at some point between here and there.

For high AC, the Forcerer gets something like +30 naked as a teen, easily topping 40 if so inclined, and the same tricks can work for any build- Argent Savant 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Paragnostic Apostle 1 nets you: +2 AC on all force AC spells, +2 AC on all spells granting armor bonus, and Abjurant Champion gives level to all abjuration AC spells (= shield).
So, that's a +11 shield and +10 mage armor. you could also go uncanny trickster for another +2 from abchamp. And of course, Troglodyte skin via Alter Self is another +7, in nat armor.

You might want more of argent savant (since you've paid the CL loss already) or paragnostic apostle, too.

*edit* the following needs Races of Stone!
For actual armor, a Dwarven Plated Battlesmith already gets +12 AC. Start as Ranger 3/Fighter 2, for least suck and more skills. You can also pick up a shield for another +2, so that's 24 without magic items or DEX right there. Two levels of Deepwarden snatch CON to AC, so that's easily another +4 there, and in fact, you could pick a level of Barbarian, and lose NO Con while raging.
Or, dip PsyWar or psion and enter Iron Mind for DR 3/- and some manifesting.

So... Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Deepwarden 2/Battlesmith 4.
use ranger skillpoints to get Climb, Heal, Jump, K:Dungeoneering and Survival to 5 (doable by level 2 with int of 10), leaving you with 14 skill points, and Deepwarden netting another 12, which you use on craft(armorsmithing) and craft(weaponsmithing). Weapon first, as you need to create a Dwarvencraft weapon for yourself and use it in the battle. DC 22, so 10 ranks won't be enough for a Take Ten. If you can spare int 14, you're good. Craft your Mountain Plate yourself to get it half price.

Feats: 1 fre 3 free 6 dwarven armor proficiency, fighter 4 WF Warhammer, 5 Power Attack.

Your final AC should be around 45 without further class investments, just presuming some attention towards right item choices. An old red dragon will have to work to hit you, which is a pretty good standard. A 55 AC would be a good finish. For damage, you could still pull off the Divine Crusader/Holy Warrior combo, for an example.
#10
Gavinfox
Aug 06, 2010 19:47:12 If you want to play a melee monster, than yes, Cleric can do FINE. Just ignore any access to in combat healing and instead buff up big time.

Alternately, look for Tome of Battle -- Warblade and Crusader can DEFINITELY tank it up. Or maybe look at the Barbarian handbook, and focus on the rage sort of thing?

Alternately, Psychic Warrior is a great melee class.

By the way... monks have a lot of parodying associated with them on this forum, since it requires SOOO MUUUUCCCH to get them to be 'feasible at doing their job'. One of the common parodies is UMDing wands for buffs in order to pretend to be a wizard...

and, yes, it is true that a commoner with enough cross class ranks in UMD and enough money can get enough partially charged wands such that they are an okay melee combatant, by basically burning money... but if you want to be good at melee, you generally want to do so via class abilities!
#11
casus
Aug 07, 2010 5:08:21 More great advice. Still got one more day before character creation. Anyone else have any last minute ideas I can pull from?
#12
lycanthrope0
Aug 07, 2010 10:36:31 Starting at Fifth level you can also play a gish. i personaly like human paragon 3/wizard 3/Eldritch knight 2/ Abjurant champion 5 for the base. then you can go with a divine power gish using Eldritch Disciple to get you the war domain or you can add 2 levels of wizard to take it that way. or a mortraditional gish build fom the base with things like spell sword and more classes that add +1 casting and base attack bonus.
#13
casus
Aug 08, 2010 12:36:06 Last couple hours before I go start character gen. Anyone have any last minute ideas that I can take with me?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 casus Aug 05, 2010 1:43:08	Okay. So, my character died and im starting a new one this week. Here are the stats I rolled: 17, 17, 16, 14, 13, 10. I prefer not to play races with ECL. I am starting level 5. Would like to play either a Melee damage machine or a Melee Tank. Can anyone suggest a level 1-20 build with feats and some tactics? I have never been very good at this aspect and usually just try to stay alive and not kill the party. We have all core books and most complete. We also have some of the others like UE, BoED, and Spell compendium etc. If we don't have it i can probably ask our DM if we can research a feat/game mechanic. Please help. I need a decent build by Sunday.
#2 casus Aug 05, 2010 1:56:41	Almost forgot. Party make-up is a Mage, Druid, and a Paladin (played by a new guy.) Was playing Cleric before and we all agreed that we don't necessarily need a cleric for healing because we employ the "cleric in a bag" mentality by purchasing wands for the druid. I am not opposed to playing a cleric again but need more help playing it better than I was (took a 2 level fighter dip which I have come to find out is unnecessary.)
#3 Senevri Aug 05, 2010 8:04:32	Hm. Okay, here's what I'll suggest. Half-orc, Stats: STR 17->19 Dex 13 Con 16 Int 14->12 Wis 10 Cha 17->15. edit You could also totally be a Wood Elf, which is +2 STR, +2 DEX, -2 CON, -2 INT, in which case you'd put 17 on CON, 16 on INT and 14 on CHA. Your first stat-up would go to Con and the second to STR. Build: Barb 1/Bard 4. I suggest Extra Rage for a first level feat, if possible. not sure of prereqs. You're a raging barbarian, with decent HP, which should be fun. Bard nets you spells: 1st : nothing in Core, but Spell Compendium has: Shock and Awe, Inspirational Boost, Improvisation, Beastland Ferocity and Critical Strike to choose from. This already gives you up to +4 to hit, +2 to damage, if 2 rounds for inspirational boost + improvisation. Shock And Awe is something you might want to use every time you get the chance. Beastland Ferocity will keep you fighting 'til death, and even grant another +4 enhancement to your STR. 2nd: Mirror Image, Alter Self, Also Rage, but it's underwhelming by comparison. SpC has so many nice things, too. War Cry, Whirling Blade, Tactical Precision, Feat-wise, consider melodious casting and song of the white raven (which doesn't play well with inspirational boost, but would give you access to +1 atk, damage in every combat). ---- Okay, so you're a Barb 1/Bard 4 with a fun bag of tricks, now what? Dragon Disciple. 4 levels. - medium BAB, d12 HD, +2 nat AC, +4 STR meaning +1 to hit over full BAB, and 2 points of damage, 3 points two-handed. Also, three spell slots. So now, you have, presuming you put one point in STR by now, and let's say the other went to dex: STR 24(28 raging) Dex 14 Con 16(20 raging) Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 15. HP: 79=12+4d12+4d6+27 Effectively no penalty to AC in rage thanks to +2 nat AC. Attack of +14 by default, so in practice... let's see, +14, +2 bard song, +2 improvisation, +1 mwk weapon, enhancement to STR... +21 to hit, total. Damage would be around 2d6+18 or so, per hit, with BAB of +7, so two hits, even. And of course, a high AB means more points for power attack to sack, so your maximum damage and minimum to-hit would be +14, at 2d6+32 damage. At that rate, it'll take you three hits to down a CR 9 opponent, and you have a 50% chance to hit. Without power attack, you should hit CR 9 on a roll of 2, fully buffed, or on a roll of 4 presuming a +2 STR item. Okay, so, we're in a good spot right now, but it's all downhill from here, right? Not quite, there are few (by which I mean, lots) of options to go from here. With ToB, you can get tons and tons of fun by just dipping warblade and crusader, including some decent healing. With Song of White Raven, warblade and crusader levels would even stack with Bard for inspire courage, meaning WB 2/Crusader 2, or 4 of either, would put you at +2, another point to hit and damage. You can't pick Earth Spell without getting your WIS to 13, but if you do, you'll still qualify for Sublime Chord for Rebuild, even! This would allow you to play screw the reality with other broken classes, if that's your thing. Oh, a level of crusader or warblade and you qualify for Jade Phoenix Mage, and I believe, Abjurant Champion, for what it's worth. If no ToB, you could even just dip Fighter to get the feats to go Frenzied Berserker, and - especially with Steadfast Determination - you probably wouldn't even murder your party, what with +8 to Will save, and +5 from Con - you'd succeed on DC 15 on a roll of 2. ---- But, that's getting ahead of meself. A single level of Warblade, and you could get goodies like Blood in the Water (which is very orc, and very barbarian, as well as an awesome stance), you could even reach Iron Heart Surge at this point, or go for Emerald Razor for that maximum Power Attack, or just get Sudden Leap and Charging Minotaur, both very fun and useful. ( with your STR, charging minotaur will easily fling weaker opponents several squares away. )
#4 casus Aug 05, 2010 20:30:14	That's a very interesting idea. Anyone else have any suggestions?
#5 spiral_rider_h Aug 05, 2010 21:07:16	If you want a melee monster, I do have this idea for a monk. It works best as an Illumian from Races of Destiny, but a human could probably pull it off, too. Also, you'd have to see if your DM will allow the character to worship Tem-Et-Nu from Sandstorm. It gives access to the War domain, allows you to remain Lawful (Neutral), and requires you eventually get Weapon Focus with a kama so you can enter Divine Crusader (which is a weapon monks are proficient with). Without further ado: Monk 6/Fist of the Forest 3/Divine Crusader 1/Sacred Fist 10 If you go the Illumian route, the Illumian word combinations of Vauluur or Uurkrau. I'd probably suggest Uurkrau so you can dump Charisma. For stats I'd suggest Str 14, Dex 17, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 17, Cha 10, and get your Dexterity up to 19 by the time you'd qualify for your ninth level spell slot. Feat selection is: 1 - Great Fortitude (for Fist of the Forest), Stunning Fist (monk bonus Feat) 2 - Combat Reflexes (monk bonus Feat) 3 - Power Attack (for Fist of the Forest) 6 - Weapon Focus (kama) (for Divine Crusader), Improved Disarm (monk bonus Feat) 9 - Combat Casting (for Sacred Fist) 12 - Weapon Finesse 15 - Holy Warrior 18 - Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike) The monk bonus feat Improved Disarm isn't required for anything in the build, so if you want to take something different, you can feel free. Unearthed Arcana has some interesting options in that regard. (edited for miscommunication of information) The downsides to this build are that feats are mostly tied up for getting into prestige classes (of particular note is the Weapon Focus, since you can't even use manufactured weapons after becoming a Sacred Fist), and it gets more mileage out of the "Text trumps table" rule. That rule is listed on any printed errata, but DM word is law. But what you get is: Con to AC, ability to hit incorporeal undead, 4d8+Str modifier+9 damage per attack, six attacks with a flurry of blows, and full access to spells from the War domain. Oh, and your lowest base save (Will) is still +11 before Feats, equipment, or ability modifiers. Just something to consider. I've got other ideas if you don't like this one.
#6 casus Aug 05, 2010 23:10:15	Another great idea. Never played a monk before and it could be fun. Wondering if anyone has a heavy armor damage pumper or a tank. I definitely have some good ideas to look at already though.
#7 dandu Aug 05, 2010 23:25:50	Another great idea. Never played a monk before and it could be fun. Be sure to stock up on partially charged wands.
#8 casus Aug 05, 2010 23:59:22	Okay. You got me. Why?
#9 Senevri Aug 06, 2010 4:47:21	So you can pretend to be a wizard. T_T You MUST be illumian as divine crusader casts from Charisma. Still, not bad, +14 damage from Sacred Flames, you get Wis+Con to AC, you have the base fist damage of a 19th-level monk, (+INA), and while Divine Crusader doesn't give you _that_ much, it does power holy warrior, which is another +9 to damage. So, that's 4d8+2+23 damage per hit, naked, with Sacred Flames Your flurry pattern is bite/hit/hit before iteratives. Rather decent. However! This matures rather late! You don't get Holy Warrior before 15th, nor Sacred Flames before 14th. You're going to hate life at some point between here and there. For high AC, the Forcerer gets something like +30 naked as a teen, easily topping 40 if so inclined, and the same tricks can work for any build- Argent Savant 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Paragnostic Apostle 1 nets you: +2 AC on all force AC spells, +2 AC on all spells granting armor bonus, and Abjurant Champion gives level to all abjuration AC spells (= shield). So, that's a +11 shield and +10 mage armor. you could also go uncanny trickster for another +2 from abchamp. And of course, Troglodyte skin via Alter Self is another +7, in nat armor. You might want more of argent savant (since you've paid the CL loss already) or paragnostic apostle, too. edit the following needs Races of Stone! For actual armor, a Dwarven Plated Battlesmith already gets +12 AC. Start as Ranger 3/Fighter 2, for least suck and more skills. You can also pick up a shield for another +2, so that's 24 without magic items or DEX right there. Two levels of Deepwarden snatch CON to AC, so that's easily another +4 there, and in fact, you could pick a level of Barbarian, and lose NO Con while raging. Or, dip PsyWar or psion and enter Iron Mind for DR 3/- and some manifesting. So... Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Deepwarden 2/Battlesmith 4. use ranger skillpoints to get Climb, Heal, Jump, K:Dungeoneering and Survival to 5 (doable by level 2 with int of 10), leaving you with 14 skill points, and Deepwarden netting another 12, which you use on craft(armorsmithing) and craft(weaponsmithing). Weapon first, as you need to create a Dwarvencraft weapon for yourself and use it in the battle. DC 22, so 10 ranks won't be enough for a Take Ten. If you can spare int 14, you're good. Craft your Mountain Plate yourself to get it half price. Feats: 1 fre 3 free 6 dwarven armor proficiency, fighter 4 WF Warhammer, 5 Power Attack. Your final AC should be around 45 without further class investments, just presuming some attention towards right item choices. An old red dragon will have to work to hit you, which is a pretty good standard. A 55 AC would be a good finish. For damage, you could still pull off the Divine Crusader/Holy Warrior combo, for an example.
#10 Gavinfox Aug 06, 2010 19:47:12	If you want to play a melee monster, than yes, Cleric can do FINE. Just ignore any access to in combat healing and instead buff up big time. Alternately, look for Tome of Battle -- Warblade and Crusader can DEFINITELY tank it up. Or maybe look at the Barbarian handbook, and focus on the rage sort of thing? Alternately, Psychic Warrior is a great melee class. By the way... monks have a lot of parodying associated with them on this forum, since it requires SOOO MUUUUCCCH to get them to be 'feasible at doing their job'. One of the common parodies is UMDing wands for buffs in order to pretend to be a wizard... and, yes, it is true that a commoner with enough cross class ranks in UMD and enough money can get enough partially charged wands such that they are an okay melee combatant, by basically burning money... but if you want to be good at melee, you generally want to do so via class abilities!
#11 casus Aug 07, 2010 5:08:21	More great advice. Still got one more day before character creation. Anyone else have any last minute ideas I can pull from?
#12 lycanthrope0 Aug 07, 2010 10:36:31	Starting at Fifth level you can also play a gish. i personaly like human paragon 3/wizard 3/Eldritch knight 2/ Abjurant champion 5 for the base. then you can go with a divine power gish using Eldritch Disciple to get you the war domain or you can add 2 levels of wizard to take it that way. or a mortraditional gish build fom the base with things like spell sword and more classes that add +1 casting and base attack bonus.
#13 casus Aug 08, 2010 12:36:06	Last couple hours before I go start character gen. Anyone have any last minute ideas that I can take with me?