1) Be specific - the more details about your character and the game, the better.
2) There are many useful threads out there which may already have the answers you want. Don't forget to try, either - it really isn't that hard. Remember - whether you think you can, or you think you can't - you're right.
3) Say things like "please" and "thank you". Be good to your fellow Humanoids,
Welcome to the Character Optimization Boards, a land of Kobold overgods, infinite possibilities, nasty tricks, useful collections, but most of all, incredible collective skill at making solid D&D characters. It's probably all a bit confusing at first, but pay close attention to the basics, and soon you'll be on your way to making your own top-notch characters, combinations, and perhaps helping others out with the same.
Whenever you want ask for help on the Character Optimization (CO) Boards, remember these three things:
1) Share with Us
In order to help you make a cool character, we have to know what you know about the character and the game it will be in. Here are some things to consider:
- What D&D books you can use?
- What type of character you want it to be?
- What levels will this character be played at?
- Any house rules or particular details about your DM or the other characters in the game?
- What specifically you are looking for help with?
2) Put in an Effort
This means being polite, using good grammar and punctuation. (We know not everyone is a native English speaker, and that's OK - but its a language that most people know). Check to see if what you want is already out there on the CO Boards - there's a very good chance you're not the only one with that idea or question. 3 pages is about 12 hours worth of posts. Use these valuable resources to answer your questions before starting a new thread:
- The Optimization Library: Links to handbooks and tactical help threads.
- Surreal's Handy Links: A collection of most of the important CO threads.
- The CO Board FAQ: Answers to questions about optimization and the CO Board itself.
- Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer: Post quick questions about optimization here.
Keep in mind that the best form of help is self-help. Try your hand at the build - you might be surprised at what you do know, and you will receive more focused advice for your character. If you do the work, you'll reap the rewards!
3) Follow Through
This does not mean bumping the thread every 20 minutes. It means checking in and commenting on people's suggestions, asking for clarification about things you don't understand, and generally guiding the discussion towards what you want. If the creator of a thread sticks around to follow through, you're much more likely to get what you want out of the Character Optimization boards. Don't be discouraged if your post doesn't get any hits immediately - perhaps the one who will help you lives on the other side of the planet and is just waking up. And don't forget to thank the people who help out with suggestions, links, and advice. They're kind-hearted volunteers and fellow D&D players/DMs, not Wizards of the Coast employees.
[u]Sample Posts[/u]
There is nothing more we like to do here than help people, but if you ask for help one way, you could get no useful advice. Ask another way, and you could get more information than you can digest! The following two "posts" are examples of posts we might see here at the Character Optimizations Boards.
The Bad Example wrote:
Suggestions? Here is a link where the 1st and 2nd drafts of the guidelines reside.
One thought though.
You very nicely cover what a new player to the board should do to maximize the help they receive, perhaps a little chunck at the end to help new players help other people and remind the old timers that everyone isn't a master at DnD-fu?
Still, nice going.
As a content management professional, I can tell you that the more you use conciseness and brevity in your posts, the better the eyeball retention of your target audience.
Resist the need to expand your post. If you have to add more stuff, either pare something back or generalize/condense your revised statements. The longer the post gets, the more people will gloss over the details or even bypass reading any of it at all.
In fact, expect a significant number of people who link to it to not even want to read any of it at all right off the bat. Some people just want super-condensed one-paragraph FAQs, Rule Lists, Guidelines, etc. (shrug)
I'm also looking for two phrases to replace "dirty tricks" and "handy collections" in the first sentence - I want to avoid referencing any particular individual. If possible, try to keep the same two-word thing going on - I like the cadence.
Very nice, Phoenix.
As a content management professional, I can tell you that the more you use conciseness and brevity in your posts, the better the eyeball retention of your target audience.
Resist the need to expand your post. If you have to add more stuff, either pare something back or generalize/condense your revised statements. The longer the post gets, the more people will gloss over the details or even bypass reading any of it at all.
In fact, expect a significant number of people who link to it to not even want to read any of it at all right off the bat. Some people just want super-condensed one-paragraph FAQs, Rule Lists, Guidelines, etc. (shrug)
This is good advice.
While feedback and backslaps are nice from your fellow CharOp regulars, it's way more important to get feedback from the new folks who needed this info and actually went to click on this document.
As it is right now, I think it's way too long. You need to tighten it up or you will lose a lot of people half way through it. New posters who are forced to read through all those paragraphs just to post a few themselves seems highly improbable.
That's just constructive criticism, Phoenix. I think the whole initiative by you and LoP is fantastic. My apologies if this sounds too abrupt.
I agree that the guidelines have to be something that someone WILL read if they point their browser in this direction and I agree that I want new people to make comments as well.
Go to Google .com
Click advanced search
Type in your search tearms
In the Ninth line, named Domain, in the Box titled "return results from the site or domain" enter "boards1.wizards.com"
OR
In the main search box at google.com type
search tearms you want to look for site:boards1.wizards.com
Revised, since there have been a few more people inquiring into it. Just so its clear, I'm not taking credit for the work - LordofProcrastination did most of it, I'm just his editor, because he's not around to finish it.
I'm also looking for two phrases to replace "dirty tricks" and "handy collections" in the first sentence - I want to avoid referencing any particular individual. If possible, try to keep the same two-word thing going on - I like the cadence.
Cheesy might be a good replacement adjective, as it's used quite often on the boards. Useful is a natural fit to replace "handy."
N00b OP: Hi! After my third Eberron character in the past 6 months died miserably, one of my fellow players directed me to this board for advice. I've decided my new character will be a Gnome Paladin 2/Sorcerer 2 aimed at Knight Phantom. For stats, after adjustments I've got 12 13 14 9 12 17. I'd like to focus on a reach weapon. I can use any Eberron source as well as SRD and Races of Stone/Destiny/Wild. I read the Sorcerer thread and the Paladin thread, but didn't see what I was after. Any help would be appreciated.
CO Board First Responder: There's already a handbook for Gish characters, and Paladin/Sorcerer is a Gish.
Sometimes, the first responder will choose to link the thread the OP missed. Sometimes, this choice is not made. In both cases, the response is not especially helpful to the OP, since it doesn't actually deal with his/her original question. Simply pointing to previous sources is not even necessarily useful, since new material can make last year's Gish of Awesome R0XX0Rness into this year's pedestrial attempt at optimization.
I'm also looking for two phrases to replace "dirty tricks" and "handy collections" in the first sentence - I want to avoid referencing any particular individual. If possible, try to keep the same two-word thing going on - I like the cadence.
How about "cheesy combos" and "informative libraries"?
Maybe the "Sample Posts" section should be edited into your second post? It seems a natural break, and allows the first section to stand alone for those who are really seeking brevity.
As a corrolary to 'Put In An Effort', the CO regs need to remember that not everyone is as adept at finding board source-material.
There's the sticky thread at the top, and lots of people have Surreal's index in their sig, and there are links to it in the Posting Guidelines - that is no excuse.
Further, we need to recognize that the source-material might not contain bits relavent to the OPs question. By way of example, I've seen threads go something like this before:
Handbook materials are supposed to teach and instruct, not answer every damn question. I'm so tired of hearing people say "but THOSE guides use books I don't have - MY question is different." NO ITS NOT. In your particular example, the error on the responder's part was to not link the Gish handbook. Whether or not the response addresses the specifics is almost irrelevant as long as the Gish handbook is shown & made known to them. IF the new poster does read that Gish handbook, hopefully "Hey, that Knight Phantom PrC looks a lot like the Eldritch Knight!" will occur and we have TAUGHT something as opposed to GIVEN something.
Give a man a fish or teach a man to fish - I would rather be a fishing instructor than a distributor of fish, wouldn't you?
Give a man a fish or teach a man to fish - I would rather be a fishing instructor than a distributor of fish, wouldn't you?
If you give a man fire, you keep him warm for the night. If you set a man on fire, you keep him warm for life.
Otherwise, nice job PI.
Point the second: What "approach" exactly do you propose?
Spoonfeeding answers to newcomers is counter productive to the purpose of the boards, which is to create a COMMUNITY of optimizers - not just a question/answer and/or build-review service. No one got good at this just by begging for builds - all of us have invested a lot of time into learning the ins-and-outs of the rules, and many of us have invested a lot of money into this to obtain the new material. We should encourage others, but the education process is a two-way street (a fact that is lost in the debate around the American education system, in case someone out there is a lawmaker). This is NOT the Matrix - we CANNOT just "plug you in" if you want to get good at what we do. If all you want is to have us review builds, then fine - but that's what the handbooks are for.
Point the first: Rarely does "latest and greatest" change the equation for any particular build concept. For example Knight Phantom did not change the Fighter/Mage archetype, and Sanctified Mind did not change the Fighter/Psy archetype - does it really matter if we use Eldritch Knight or Illithid Slayer to illustrate how those PrCs are used?
Yes, it does, IMO, because Knight Phantom has different prereqs, different strengths & weaknesses, and in all a different *feel* than Eldritch Knight.
I'm so tired of hearing people say "but THOSE guides use books I don't have - MY question is different." NO ITS NOT.
So, a new poster comes in and phrases a request well to explain that she needs help with a Barbarian build in a FR campaign where she can't use CW, and the response that points her to multiple builds dealing with CW helps her in what way, exactly? I suppose it tells her not to come asking for help with a build; is that really helpful?
Spoonfeeding answers to newcomers is counter productive to the purpose of the boards, which is to create a COMMUNITY of optimizers
I don't understand how responses of 'we already have a handbook for that, n00b', no matter how delicately phrased, fosters the creation of a COMMUNITY. It fosters the creation of a CLIQUE, where those in the know can point to their vast optimization prowess and look down upon those who need help to get there.
Overall, I feel that the overall "helpfullness" of the boards has increased in the past little while. Before that, I think people were overdoing it (and bordering on rude) with just saying "look at the guidelines" with no helpful input at all.
But a bump to remind folks of this thread doesn't hurt either
I'd like to make a point - I've noticed a lot of new posters coming around (which is good) that walk in and ask "gimmie build" and a lot of people jumping in to help. What is the point of having these posting guidelines is no one is going to try to get them in place? Is this effort a lost cause?
Actually, I've noticed the guidelines linked to several times. And I agree with Surreal that it seems the general attitude is shifting a little bit on the CO Board.
But as I have said before, people will always do what they want. If you see a lot of people jumping in to help, regardless of the OP's etiquette, it should be obvious that they are not particular about the request, and that they want to help anyways. This shouldn't be a problem.
For example: WTF is a Gish? I'm not sure if it's because I'm from New Zealand, but I'd never heard this term before. So if I asked about a Fighter/Mage-y type and got "Gish n00b!!1!" as a response, I'd be pretty annoyed.
One sidenote: I'm pretty new here, and even after spending hours and hours reading the various handbooks, I'm still not 100% up to speed on all the terminology that these boards use over and above standard D&D terminology.
For example: WTF is a Gish? I'm not sure if it's because I'm from New Zealand, but I'd never heard this term before. So if I asked about a Fighter/Mage-y type and got "Gish n00b!!1!" as a response, I'd be pretty annoyed.
A gish is a warrior-mage. Optimimally it has 9th level spells, caster level 20 (with practiced spellcaster) and at least Base Attack Bonus +16. In most cases as long as it has a lot of BAB and Spellcaster levels, and can do cool things by being both a warrior and a mage, it qualifies as a Gish.
The bard is a weak Gish for example. A Duskblade (Player's Handbook II) is already much more like one, in fact it's WotC's attemps at making a Gish base class (and it's not too bad an attemp really). A Warblade/Psion/[Illithid] Slayer is a Psi-Gish, a psionic version of the Gish. There are also Divine Gishes.
I hope I answered your question.
The warrior aspect is maximized usually via BAB and the caster aspect is maximized through caster levels. The ideal would net you a BAB of +16 and a caster/manifsester level of 17.
I guess that was also a pretty good example of how you should try to eliminate vagueness and focus your thoughts too. :P
PS. Could this, or a consolidated posting guidelines thread be stickied? I know it woulda helped me to know how to go about things.
PS. Could this, or a consolidated posting guidelines thread be stickied? I know it woulda helped me to know how to go about things.
After reading a couple of first page threads, I came here specifically to ask this question.
Now, I realize that this thread is linked in the Important Threads Index sticky, but apparently many people either don't know this or refuse to acknowledge it. It's extremely frustrating as a pseudo-regular to constantly have threads popping up with "build me this" or "what's the best this you can build" with no effort whatsoever by the OP. The number of times I've posted a link to these guidelines is exasperating!
In an effort to keep the boards clean, streamlined and traversable, I vote to have this thread the top sticky on the CO page. (If possible, with big red letters saying, "Read this prior to posting...no, seriously!")
Finally, kudos to you, PhoenixInferno, for grabbing the torch on this topic. It is a invaluable and unequivocal guide. Well done!
Too many new folks aren't reading these. Again.Perhaps repost these rules a 4th time -- to clean up the thread a bit.
Motion 2: Add links to the various FAQs, optimization library, and Surreal's list in this thread's OP to increase its usefulness, thereby replacing the function of the CO board FAQ completely.
All in favor?
Motion 1: Sticky this thread separately. I find these far more useful than the useless CO board FAQ (which is nothing more than a page that links the Optimization library to me). We could move the existing CO FAQ to the important thread's index.
Perhaps repost these rules a 4th time -- to clean up the thread a bit.
Can't do it - only 3 sticky threads at a time.
Motion 2: Add links to the various FAQs, optimization library, and Surreal's list in this thread's OP to increase its usefulness, thereby replacing the function of the CO board FAQ completely.
All in favor?
They ARE in the OP. See? Nobody reads this!
Can't do it - only 3 sticky threads at a time.
Hence my proposal for this to replace the (in my opinion) useless FAQ thread. The FAQ could be placed in the Important Thread index. (Which would be the 2nd sticky) leaving a third sticky open for contest use.
They ARE in the OP. See? Nobody reads this!
:embarrass
Well, I *did* read them a long time ago... I had since forgotten the linked list. Please don't smite me.
I don't think your going that route, but you gotta be speciific.
I think you'll have to be specific about that. Some people like building characters. Sometimes you get newbies who really have no idea where to go with a build. Really though, its mostly average players(average PG's) looking for a little boost and they might feel that they may be asking too much.
I don't think your going that route, but you gotta be speciific.
I know. We can hammer out the specifics later though. But when I say "this isn't a store", I'm talking about things like this and this. Heck, its not even providing all the details up front - we can coax that information out (or club it out if we have to). Its the entitlement mentality.
Heck, its not even providing all the details up front - we can coax that information out (or club it out if we have to).
That makes me feel better, looking at this thread I was kinda worried about a "no books no stats no service" stance being taken. To be honest I've read the posting guidlines more than a few times but the information still slips my mind when I post. It doesn't even really occur to me that I forgot something until someone brings it up. I'd hate to get cold shouldered because people think I don't care enough to bother adding more information. Anyway, just the thoughts of a newbie.
If you feel offended because someone hasn't adequately researched their question (which is just as likely to be due to poor internet skills or poor splatbook access then to laziness) you really have no right to. Point them in the right direction, sure, but complaining about n00bs cluttering the boards reeks of orgiastic onanism.
In my opninion there is nothing quite so patheitc on these boards as some self-styled internet hero abusing n00bs for rudeness. Don't think the request is polite enough? Then don't post.
Lofnazareth
(Yes, I am aware of the irony of this post)
in hopes for sticky Too many new folks coming not doing their homework.EDIT: If I see a really bad "help-me" thread, I will immortalize it. Is this a good idea or bad idea?
EDIT: If I see a really bad "help-me" thread, I will immortalize it. Is this a good idea or bad idea?
Hm. My knee-jerk reaction is "bad idea". It'll just encourage flamwars, especially from noobs and people like the guy below:
Well I'm a long-time lurker and I don't normally post much but I thought I might weigh-in here. Basically I think that there is far too much self-righteousness on these boards generally and also too many people who claim to speak on behalf of the majority. It doesn't really matter how old-skool you are, or how high your post-count is or how 1337 your haX0rZ optimising is, the boards do not belong to anyone.
If you feel offended because someone hasn't adequately researched their question (which is just as likely to be due to poor internet skills or poor splatbook access then to laziness) you really have no right to. Point them in the right direction, sure, but complaining about n00bs cluttering the boards reeks of orgiastic onanism.
In my opninion there is nothing quite so patheitc on these boards as some self-styled internet hero abusing n00bs for rudeness. Don't think the request is polite enough? Then don't post.
Lofnazareth
(Yes, I am aware of the irony of this post)
It's not self-righteousness to expect people to be polite, especially if they want something. As was mentioned just above your post, in this generation there are many people who believe that simply asking a question means they are entitled to an answer. Even scientists and the mainstream media are beginning to realize that the current generation is the most self-centered, narcissistic one in awhile.
That said, the sword cuts both ways. Those on the expert side of things do need to keep in mind that not everyone reads the FAQ or the instruction manual; hell, you usually don't yourself, did you? It is unreasonable that someone will always know whether or not a question has already been asked, or always be able to even understand that a particular library thread may apply to them. Courtesy, consideration, and politeness are necessary on both sides of the question/answer divide. It would do good for both sides to remember that the other is not the only one who has to watch himself.
That's why new posters are either not reading it to completion ... or losing focus of its objective once half-way through the read.
Guidelines as such do not need to have new nuggets of advice or wisdom tacked on. They need to be condensed to the easiest-to-swallow and eye-friendliest dimensions. While that may mean crucial details and criteria-points may go unheeded, you will have to concede some aspect of the guidelines structure efficacy just to get people to actually finish reading the whole thing.
Phoenix, keep in mind - this is all constructive criticism as content management on web sites is what I do for a living. Online rules, terms-of-use, CoC docs and whatnot are rarely RARELY ever read to completion. They are usually eyeball scanned for relevant phrases. Or people just crap-out (due to boredom) after reading 1 or 2 of the beginning sentences.
While you and the other CO regulars may love the precise detail of this fabulously scripted guideline document, the real proof of efficacy comes from feedback of new posters who were guided to the doc and "attempted" an actual read of the thing.
share with us, put in an effort, and follow through all in plain English.
As in your "bad example," I hate reading misspelled words (especially those from common sources such as Rogue) and the use of improper grammar makes my brain ache.
Of course, though, all of this is done in vain because we all know that no one would actually read this even if we did have it stickied. *sigh* It's worth it though, I suppose.
:D
1. Give as many details on the situation as you can
2. Include some of your own research on the situation
3. Be considerate and patient
Also, it'd be nice to see a "Reply Guideline"
Something to the effect of:
1. Is it on topic?
2. Have you read the OP and the rest of the thread?
3. Is it respectful of the OP and others?
If you answered no to any of the above for your reply, DON'T POST THAT REPLY.
Also, it'd be nice to see a "Reply Guideline"
Something to the effect of:
1. Is it on topic?
2. Have you read the OP and the rest of the thread?
3. Is it respectful of the OP and others?
If you answered no to any of the above for your reply, DON'T POST THAT REPLY.
Best. Idea. Ever.
I'm not sure I like the executive summary -- It's not clear without having read the actual guidelines. Here's my take:
1. Give as many details on the situation as you can
2. Include some of your own research on the situation
3. Be considerate and patient
Indeed. Maybe even including an extra line of justification for each:
1. Give as many details on the situation as you can.
Details like your vision for the character, house rules, allowed books are especially important for coming up with appropriate builds.
2. Include some of your own research on the situation
There are many useful threads out there which may already have the answers you want. It may be quicker to run a search to see if what you need is already available.
3. Be considerate and patient
Remember that you're asking fellow gaming enthusiasts--volunteers, basically--for answers to your questions. Noone's getting paid for this, and as such everyone here is free to ignore a rude post.
Most importantly, don't hide the summary beneath an sblock. Display it proudly, in big letters. It's for the people that don't want to make an effort, right? Shove it in their face; don't hide it away.
Also, it'd be nice to see a "Reply Guideline"
Something to the effect of:
1. Is it on topic?
2. Have you read the OP and the rest of the thread?
3. Is it respectful of the OP and others?
If you answered no to any of the above for your reply, DON'T POST THAT REPLY.
Absolutely. Both sides need the help here, not just the posters themselves.
I Can't see why WotC employees (like customer service or something) don't deserve beeing treated with manners. They are people after all.
Dont get me wrong. You are right, everyone should be polite around here. It's just that the way you say it dosent seems the best way to make your point clear. It sounds like you can be ungrateful with someone with a payday.
anyway I just want to say Thank you for listening my opinion.
3) Say things like "please" and "thank you". We're volunteers, not WotC employees.
I Can't see why WotC employees (like customer service or something) don't deserve beeing treated with manners. They are people after all.
Dont get me wrong. You are right, everyone should be polite around here. It's just that the way you say it dosent seems the best way to make your point clear. It sounds like you can be ungrateful with someone with a payday.
That is a very good point.
That is a very good point.
Ok. thanks.
In your OP, last paragraph, your colors change. Your Share is always red, that one is good, but your Effort and Follow change color in the last paragraph. Put in an Effort changes from blue to green, and Follow Through changes from green to blue.
I don't know if you care...it's just that I noticed it.
And
cause i feel that this thread is very useful.Thanks for these guidelines,
Shandiris
that was an example of a bad post:P
Ohh!!! Phoenix, you just got Punk'd!!!
P.S. Sorry about punking you like that.;)
books allowed that i own
PHB
PHB2
DMG
MM1
(DM doesn't want monstrous races or subraces. his slots are all used for these races)
rules
28 point buy
hp is half max hit die +1 + con modifer
What i want, A surviving melee trapfinding machine, (balance of skills and melee capacity)
ecl 7
human or elf (too many dwarves)
Feats
skills
classes to take
equipment 19,000 gp
must haves
Disable device, Open lock, search, Use magic device, melee capacity, guaranteed to do damage at most if not all times, must have secondarey damage source (cannot solely depend on sneak attack), must be minmax.
house rules
wondrous items may be on different slots if reasonable (Gloves to Bracers, Shoulders to to headwear, and vice versa)
retroactive skillpoints are gained (bumping intellegence in permanent methods give retroactive skillpoints)
no xp penalty for multiclassing
Weapons i'm debating on, (need help choosing)
spiked gauntlet (the cost of 1 weapon gets you a pair, guantlets are always in pairs, much like shoes or gloves, you can also hold a torch while two weapon figthing, this could be a very animeish weapon though, sleevelike gauntlets with retractable daggers. also a historical ninja weapon, so it works for rogues, motion based draw as you strike, never take quick draw again)
Rapier (highest threat range of any martial weapon, plus even though it is onehanded weapon, it is a light weapon in all mechanics, even dual wielding, most plain vanilla rogues carry one of these)
Wakizashi (cheaper masterwork shortsword, only requires shortsword proficiency, less nickle and diming, very rogueish, flavorwise, a thin straight blade worn in a sheath across the lower back, 2 of these in opposite sides of same sheath equal Aoshi Shinimori)
Equipment picked out, mitrhal shirt (+1 or +2, which one?), masterwork thieves tools, standard adventuerers kit
Sigged.