I'm a newbie when it comes to CO and would like to know if anyone has cooked this process down to a generic step procedure to follow.
1. What is the basic procedure for CO of any character using only the Core books?
2. What is the basic procedure for CO of any character using the Core books plus Accessory books (for those who have them)?
3. How is the CO approach different in creating a higher level (example 10th level) character from scratch versues a 1st level character that will level up with play?
I think a basic, generic procedure for CO would be helpful to many players, especially to those of us who are new to the CO process. A general step procedure focused on the Core books provides a starting point from which to build. More specifics can be picked up, along with use of accessory books, as one advances.
Any guidance would be appreciated. Thanks for your time.
Sincerely,
Nisha
1. Figure out what gives you the most power for the cheapest cost, go with it. I'm not sure there is really a process other than learning what works and manipulating it to fit an idea.
2. Figure out what gives you the most power for the cheapest cost from a large amount of sources (basically enyclopedic knowledge is required or lots of time spent over books for this one).
3. A higher level character if you are starting there can SUCK at low levels, because you never have to play through them. That's a BIG difference in comparison to a character played all the way from low levels. It's two totally different approaches.
I don't have a link, but Surreal's Index does: The commandments of optimization are the best I can think of for a list of things to start with.
Optimization is a bit of an artform. It takes an ability to think outside the box and make strange connections between abilities. I suggest that a person read through all the current builds (well the big crazy ones) and also read what the abilities listed are word for word from the books they were printed in.
If you find that trying to understand the way a certain super build works, "twists" at your brain, then you're probably not ready to do CO on that kind of level yet. But when you read it and you get the feeling "why of course! that makes perfect sense! why did I not think of that?!" then you're ready to do that stuff.
Also you need to make sure you read and re-read the books/materials/sections you are using. A lot of stuff works on very strict RAW interpreteations, so you want to make sure you read the RAW properly and aren't applying it incorrectly.
EDIT: also, sometimes the greatest game break things started out pretty unoptimized. like an idea in some one's head. Let's link this and this, what happens? Often times in checking the hunch, they'll build a poor character that is virtually unplayable, but he'll have a nice one trick.
then, in time either the creator, or this board, with chisle away at him and refine him until he becomes scary broken.
IIRC Pun-Pun started off as merely an idea, then he was a 17th level wizard or something, then he multiclassed and became obscenely low level super optimized.
then some one pointed out he could get divine ranks.. and it was game over. lol well.. basically it went something like that. lots of refinements and additions.
First get yourself a concept. How you envision the character working.
Second start looking for efficient ways to do what your vision is going to do.
Third start evaluating the options from two. Pick ones that are going to be more synergistic, and have less cost for what you get out of it.
Fourth turn back to Step 1 and repeat until you are satisfied that your character will work well.
Further Strategies to keep in Mind
Sound simple? It isn't. Here are a few tips aside from the steps that will make it work well.
Don't overoptimize yourself out of a game. Try to match the general power level of the other players. This is my personal primary rule.
Know your campaign, DM, and what your fights will be before you start creating your character. Many players have been really angry by playing a social-based bard when they found their game was a pure dungeon crawl.
Get as much feedback about your concepts as you can. These boards are a great resource for that, and feel free to use the various guides and builds already here, build on them, or just copy them.
Be exhaustive in Step 2 above. Items, feats, skills, spells, and attributes do not exist in a vacuum - the strongest combination for one concept in one campaign may not be the same for another.
1. Q: What is the basic procedure for CO of any character using only the Core books?
A: Play a druid. Well, just kidding. Basically, the CO rules I always follow start by looking at your role in a party.
Core trap-finder: You're either a cleric using Find Traps, or a rogue. 99% of the time, you're a rogue, possibly multiclassed.
Core social skills: You have a high charisma and some of the talkie skills. Bard is the natural, followed by rogue, cleric, and paladin.
Core healer: Cleric, then druid, then rogue/bard/paladin/ranger
Core Damage: Usually a barbarian/fighter/ranger or a blasting wizard or druid. Lots of classes can do this.
Core tanking: Usually a barbarian/fighter/druid
Core battlefield control: wizard, druid
Core scout: wizard, druid, rogue, ranger, bard
Core useless or worse than other classes that do the same thing: sorcerer, monk, paladin, possibly bard
After I've got my role down (let's say I am the group's HEALER), then I look at my possible classes. Let's say I roll with Druid. :D
Then I figure out what I want to do when I'm not healing. Usually in core I go with buffing and fighting in melee as a wildshaped animal, but you could also go with blasting with lightning spells, or with conjuring animals.
Then I choose my stats. let's say I got an 8, 10, 12, 12, 12, 13. Yippee. Well, 13 in Wisdom, 12 in Con, Dex, Str, 10 in int, and 8 in Cha.
Then I choose my feats. I type them out like this:
Character 1:
Char 3:
Char 6: Natural Spell
Char 9:
Char 12:
Char 15:
Char 18:
Then I start to fill them in.
Character 1: Power Attack
Char 3: Cleave
Char 6: Natural Spell
Char 9: Spell Penetration
Char 12: Improved Initiative
Char 15: Great Cleave
Char 18: Quicken Spell
Then I eyeball it and think it over. Let's say this time I go for a more spells-focused build who throws lightning bolts around. I change some stuff around...
Character 1: Extend Spell
Char 3: Quicken Spell
Char 6: Natural Spell
Char 9: Spell Penetration
Char 12: Improved Initiative
Char 15: Empower Spell
Char 18: Greater Spell Penetration
OK. Now I look at the build again. How can I arrange these feats to be more useful at the levels I get them?
Extend Spell is +1 spell adjustment, so I move it to 3rd level, when I first get 2nd level spells. Improved Initiative doesn't require anything and helps from 1st to 20th, so I put that at 1st. Natural Spell goes at 6th. I can start using quickened 1st level spells at 9th level, but 5th level druid slots are quite nice - so instead I might take empower spell and cast empowered 2nd level spells in 4th level slots. Then later on in the game (12+), more and more creatures get spell resistance, so I take spell penetration then.
Character 1: Improved Initiative
Char 3: Extend Spell
Char 6: Natural Spell
Char 9: Empower Spell
Char 12: Quicken Spell
Char 15: Spell Penetration
Char 18: Greater Spell Penetration
OK. So once I have my feats down, I look at the races. I typically default to dwarf or human in 3.5 - and in this case, I don't really want any more feats at 1st level, so dwarf it is for +2 to Con and -2 to the useless Charisma.
Once I get that down, I'm 80% done. I quickly chart out the skills (Concentration, Knowledge (Nature), Diplomacy, and Handle Animal, usually), then look at the gear. Hmm...hide armor, a longspear, and a sling it is. Maybe a club too, and a few alchemical items or a potion of cure light wounds for when I'm bleeding to death.
Lastly, I choose my animal companion (a riding dog) and my spells (entangle, cure light wounds, speak with animals). Then I go back and look over stuff. I might buy some armor for my dog, for example, or switch survival with Ride or something.
FINALLY, I take all my modifiers and add them together (Hmm, 10 +1 Dex +3 Hide = 14 AC, etc.), and come up with a physical description, some basic goals and quirks, alignment, and relationship to his deity and party.
To summarize:
1. Party Role and Class
2. Stats
3. Feats
4. Revise feats
5. Race
6. Skills
7. Equipment
8. Spells
9. Class features
10. Run over all the previous, especially feats
11. Add everything up.
12. Alignment, role-playing stuff.
2. What is the basic procedure for CO of any character using the Core books plus Accessory books (for those who have them)?
Pretty much the same thing, except that when choosing stuff you should keep prestige classes in the back of your mind. For the druid above, for example, I would put ranks into Knowledge (the Planes) so he could enter Planar Shepherd.
3. How is the CO approach different in creating a higher level (example 10th level) character from scratch versues a 1st level character that will level up with play?
The good: You can take feats and skills that suck early on but will be great at your level. For example, taking Quicken Spell at 1st level so you have a metamagic feat to qualify at 3rd level for a prestige class, and the feat will be useful to you at 15th level. You also have more control over your equipment and spells, which is very nice.
The bad: Often an interesting concept turns out to be bad in actual play. A grappling monk, for example, or a paladin acting as a healer in combat.
It's worse at high levels because the power disparity between classes is much more pronounced - a 17th level grappling monk, for example, is not nearly useful as the wizard who casts Summon Monster IX for a gargantuan scorpion with +37 to its grapple check, and then in the same round casts a quickened evard's black tentacles to grapple another 17 opponents as well.
Any guidance would be appreciated. Thanks for your time.
Sincerely,
Nisha
No, thank you for asking the question!
For what it's worth, I got into CO by reading handbooks, then working on my own to develop a build that was viable from 1st to 20th based on the advice in the handbook. Pretty much because I had moved to a new place, had no friends, and a really weak internet connection - but lots of D&D books and enough internet to surf the forums here.
Look below for some good handbooks (I started with the Red Wizard).
Handbooks:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1011784
Red wizard:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1063876
- learn the rules. know the abilities. read the books. look at optimized builds, study the obscure feats/variants in use. hard to optimize if you don't know / understand the abilities.
- learn to separate the fluff from the gist
- there are many-many books, you cannot read everything. focus on important things (classes, PrC, feats, equip, variants, spells)
- you don't have to know everything, but at least a general idea where to look can help. CO boards have lot of resources that will make your life easier
- certain things are notoriously known as good (human, druid, polymorph, shapechange, timestop, twohanded weapons, HorizonWalker6)
- some suck (monk, great cleave, halfelf). learn this
- cherrypick abilities by dipping, but don't overdo it
- don't dip fighter if you're a full caster
- don't lose caster levels unless you have a reason (there are few in core, if any)
- check the handbooks on this and other boards
- use online/electronic resources. it's faster than books
- don't hesitate to ask (be polite and follow the rules of the forum)
Cru's quick and dirty is a pretty good summary of some of the essentials.
ShowI'll try and write out what goes through my head when somebody says "Hey Acererak! Wanna play in a level 4 game? We need a 3rd player!"
1. Q: What is the basic procedure for CO of any character using only the Core books?
A: Play a druid. Well, just kidding. Basically, the CO rules I always follow start by looking at your role in a party.
Core trap-finder: You're either a cleric using Find Traps, or a rogue. 99% of the time, you're a rogue, possibly multiclassed.
Core social skills: You have a high charisma and some of the talkie skills. Bard is the natural, followed by rogue, cleric, and paladin.
Core healer: Cleric, then druid, then rogue/bard/paladin/ranger
Core Damage: Usually a barbarian/fighter/ranger or a blasting wizard or druid. Lots of classes can do this.
Core tanking: Usually a barbarian/fighter/druid
Core battlefield control: wizard, druid
Core scout: wizard, druid, rogue, ranger, bard
Core useless or worse than other classes that do the same thing: sorcerer, monk, paladin, possibly bard
After I've got my role down (let's say I am the group's HEALER), then I look at my possible classes. Let's say I roll with Druid. :D
Then I figure out what I want to do when I'm not healing. Usually in core I go with buffing and fighting in melee as a wildshaped animal, but you could also go with blasting with lightning spells, or with conjuring animals.
Then I choose my stats. let's say I got an 8, 10, 12, 12, 12, 13. Yippee. Well, 13 in Wisdom, 12 in Con, Dex, Str, 10 in int, and 8 in Cha.
Then I choose my feats. I type them out like this:
Character 1:
Char 3:
Char 6: Natural Spell
Char 9:
Char 12:
Char 15:
Char 18:
Then I start to fill them in.
Character 1: Power Attack
Char 3: Cleave
Char 6: Natural Spell
Char 9: Spell Penetration
Char 12: Improved Initiative
Char 15: Great Cleave
Char 18: Quicken Spell
Then I eyeball it and think it over. Let's say this time I go for a more spells-focused build who throws lightning bolts around. I change some stuff around...
Character 1: Extend Spell
Char 3: Quicken Spell
Char 6: Natural Spell
Char 9: Spell Penetration
Char 12: Improved Initiative
Char 15: Empower Spell
Char 18: Greater Spell Penetration
OK. Now I look at the build again. How can I arrange these feats to be more useful at the levels I get them?
Extend Spell is +1 spell adjustment, so I move it to 3rd level, when I first get 2nd level spells. Improved Initiative doesn't require anything and helps from 1st to 20th, so I put that at 1st. Natural Spell goes at 6th. I can start using quickened 1st level spells at 9th level, but 5th level druid slots are quite nice - so instead I might take empower spell and cast empowered 2nd level spells in 4th level slots. Then later on in the game (12+), more and more creatures get spell resistance, so I take spell penetration then.
Character 1: Improved Initiative
Char 3: Extend Spell
Char 6: Natural Spell
Char 9: Empower Spell
Char 12: Quicken Spell
Char 15: Spell Penetration
Char 18: Greater Spell Penetration
OK. So once I have my feats down, I look at the races. I typically default to dwarf or human in 3.5 - and in this case, I don't really want any more feats at 1st level, so dwarf it is for +2 to Con and -2 to the useless Charisma.
Once I get that down, I'm 80% done. I quickly chart out the skills (Concentration, Knowledge (Nature), Diplomacy, and Handle Animal, usually), then look at the gear. Hmm...hide armor, a longspear, and a sling it is. Maybe a club too, and a few alchemical items or a potion of cure light wounds for when I'm bleeding to death.
Lastly, I choose my animal companion (a riding dog) and my spells (entangle, cure light wounds, speak with animals). Then I go back and look over stuff. I might buy some armor for my dog, for example, or switch survival with Ride or something.
FINALLY, I take all my modifiers and add them together (Hmm, 10 +1 Dex +3 Hide = 14 AC, etc.), and come up with a physical description, some basic goals and quirks, alignment, and relationship to his deity and party.
To summarize:
1. Party Role and Class
2. Stats
3. Feats
4. Revise feats
5. Race
6. Skills
7. Equipment
8. Spells
9. Class features
10. Run over all the previous, especially feats
11. Add everything up.
12. Alignment, role-playing stuff.
2. What is the basic procedure for CO of any character using the Core books plus Accessory books (for those who have them)?
Pretty much the same thing, except that when choosing stuff you should keep prestige classes in the back of your mind. For the druid above, for example, I would put ranks into Knowledge (the Planes) so he could enter Planar Shepherd.
3. How is the CO approach different in creating a higher level (example 10th level) character from scratch versues a 1st level character that will level up with play?
The good: You can take feats and skills that suck early on but will be great at your level. For example, taking Quicken Spell at 1st level so you have a metamagic feat to qualify at 3rd level for a prestige class, and the feat will be useful to you at 15th level. You also have more control over your equipment and spells, which is very nice.
The bad: Often an interesting concept turns out to be bad in actual play. A grappling monk, for example, or a paladin acting as a healer in combat.
It's worse at high levels because the power disparity between classes is much more pronounced - a 17th level grappling monk, for example, is not nearly useful as the wizard who casts Summon Monster IX for a gargantuan scorpion with +37 to its grapple check, and then in the same round casts a quickened evard's black tentacles to grapple another 17 opponents as well.
Any guidance would be appreciated. Thanks for your time.
Sincerely,
Nisha
No, thank you for asking the question!
For what it's worth, I got into CO by reading handbooks, then working on my own to develop a build that was viable from 1st to 20th based on the advice in the handbook. Pretty much because I had moved to a new place, had no friends, and a really weak internet connection - but lots of D&D books and enough internet to surf the forums here.
Look below for some good handbooks (I started with the Red Wizard).
Handbooks:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1011784
Red wizard:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1063876
Sincerely,
Nisha
Thank you for the responses. I appreciate the assistance and will continue to research this subject as I get more involved with it.
Sincerely,
Nisha
Your sincerity means a lot, at least to me. It's good to know that you have interests that are broad enough to ask how one might go about finding out how one might go about finding out something.
:pile:
What started as a moderate-sized guide soon turned comprehensive. I searched and cataloged for over a month while writing the guide and noticed, "These abilities synergize in ways the authors probably didn't intend!" This happened time after time and I realized there should be an optimal order in which to take these abilities. For example:
-Dragoons are acrobatic fighters that typically use polearms.
-A Rogue level would help fill this archetype with Jump and Tumble.
-Conveniently, Rogues are proficient with all simple weapons and longspears are simple polearms.
-Rogues have a variant to trade Sneak Attack for a Fighter feat.
-Battle Jump is a Fighter feat.
-Battle Jump allows me to charge by attacking someone from above but doesn't function with magical flight or levitation.
-Lion Totem Barbarian allows me to make a full attack on a charge.
-Vertical Jump checks get ridiculously high for Large and larger creatures.
-Boosting my land speed also increases my Jump checks.
-Expeditious retreat is a level 1 Wizard spell and I can get longstrider as a level 1 domain spell.
-The feat Leap of the Heavens treats all standing jumps as running jumps.
-Up the Walls is a psionic feat that allows me to run up and along walls and fall on foes, but it requires 13 WIS.
-Psychic Warrior1 gives a psionic or Fighter feat, but I need 14 WIS to get a power point.
-Jump checks alone don't negate most falling damage.
-Tumble checks help, but the DCs ramp up quickly.
-Raptorans and Dragonborn negate falling damage, eventually fly, and get +10 racial Jump.
-A Dragonborn Water Half-Orc gets a STR boost and swim speed but a Dragonborn Fire Elf gets +2 INT and a negligible -2 CHA. A Dragonborn Nezumi gets +4 CON, -2 CHA, and a spiffy 40' base move speed as a medium creature for no LA.
-Each round I get a standard, move, and swift action.
-Charging is a full round (standard & move) action.
-Most the time I'm not using my swift action.
-The Travel Devotion allows me to move as a swift action a certain number of times per day.
-Taking 1 Cleric level can get me the Travel Devotion and another domain, plus a bunch of other stuff.
-Battle Jump when properly set up allows me to down most foes in one hit.
-Valorous weapons, the feat Headlong Rush, and a Halberd of Vaulting increase my charge damage and thus Battle Jump multiplier.
-If I had more attacks each round, I could down more foes.
-Combat Reflexes, Cleave, Great Cleave, haste, and Whirling Frenzy grant more attacks.
-I need some means of boosting my Will and Reflex saves.
-Moment of Perfect Mind is a level 1 Warblade maneuver and Action Before Thought is a level 2 Warblade maneuver.
-I can get those maneuvers with 1 Warblade level if I take Warblade at 5 or later.
-Evasion is handy to have for negating area damaging effects.
-I already have a Rogue level.
-Rogue2 provides spiffy synergy.
-I want my allies to contribute as well.
-They can only contribute if they get a turn.
-White Raven Tactics is a level 3 Warblade maneuver that gives an ally within 10' another turn.
1. It seems that none of the mêlée classes are viable 1-20, at least not compared to the mages. The point of diminishing returns varies, for example:
-Fighters stop at level 4 (unless the dungeon crasher variant is involved)
-Don't ever take a monk past level 6- even that can be too far
-Barbarians can be taken for twenty levels, but they can also serve as a pleasant one level dip
2. Don't lose caster levels, its been said before, but it is really that important.
3. Mystic Theurge classes aren't usually worth it- my Fochlucan Lyrist is a terribly interesting character but whofully underpowered when faced with real bards and druids
4. A druid hitting level six take natural spell.
Actually, thats all that comes to mind, I'll post more if I can think of it.