1) Pounce gives a full attack after a charge. ToB has several manouvers thate state "as part of this manouver, you charge an opponent", think war masters charge, war leader's charge, battle leader's charge, searing charge, doom charge, radiant charge... you get the idea. Then they give some extra damage. How does this work? Do you get the extra damage once, or on every attack?
2) The Leading the charge stance gives a +initiator level bonus on charge attacks for allies, this does include yourself, right?
3) And what happens when combined with a spell like rhino rush, which doubles damage on a charge, or when a crit is scored? Normally, I thought, extra dice don't get multiplied but fixed numbers do... does that mean that the 5d6 from searing charge won't get mulptiplied, but the +35 from war leaders charge does?
Thnx in advance!
The rest of your questions however, I'm not as certain about. I want to say you're right with your third question, but as to the first, I'm leaning towards not believing that you can pounce durring a maneuver.
2) Yes, you count as your own ally for that. While by RAW you can WRT yourself, most people will tell you it's in bad taste to do so and to restrict it to allies.
3) Your understanding is correct. The WR charge maneuvers can get really scary mounted when you're doing x3 damage without even much optimizing.
1) By RAW you migh be able to use pounce with those maneuvers. If so, I'd say the extra damage only applies to the first attack. That said, I don't care what the RAW is, I would not let a Lion Totem Barb 1 / adept x use pounce on a charging maneuver to begin with (with the exception of Pouncing Charge maneuver, of course). Use the regular charge action and pounce; or use the charge maneuver and get the one attack. Just like...use a standard action for a melee attack, or use a standard action for a strike maneuver.
Ghehe, I simply wouldn't allow the lion totem barb. It's simply too silly, mechanically and balance-wise. If some player makes a real effort to gain pounce, by taking 10 levels of binder or go for the lion of talisid prestige class, well... then that 10 / 35/ 50 extra damage from some manouvers don't matter that much anymore, since even a mildly optimized pouncer deals crazy amounts of damage already.
2) Yes, you count as your own ally for that. While by RAW you can WRT yourself, most people will tell you it's in bad taste to do so and to restrict it to allies.
Yeah, I think in one of the handbooks for ToB I read that the custemorservice answerd that you could, only that the sage (who/whatever that may be) ruled against it. Seems nonsensical to use it on yourself indeed.
3) Your understanding is correct. The WR charge maneuvers can get really scary mounted when you're doing x3 damage without even much optimizing.
This is what I'm actually curious about: does that really work? Somehow, the "charge from mount" thing seems something really different then the "charge yourself". Does a mounted charge really work for all the stuff that goes with a normal charge, like rhino rush, charging ToB manouvers, shocktrooper?
I personally rule that modifications not specifically applying to all attacks do not apply to subsequent attacks made on a pounce. My justification is the line, "it can follow with a full attack," loosely implying that the other attacks are not considered part of the actual charge. I think the better justification is that Pounce is too good of a mechanic anyway, and ruling on it strictly still yields characters able to deal enough damage to justify their feat/level/skill/gear investment.
Manuver bonus damage is NEVER multiplied. It is always added at the end, be it fixed or dice. This is why the 9th level Ironheart Strike is not broken...+100 dmg multiplied on a crit would end someone's day. It never happens.
Damage multipliers on a charge apply only to the first attack, not to all of them, AFAIK. You could rule that both ways, but applying it to all attacks really overpowers Pounce.
==Aelryinth
Unless a manuver specifically states it can be used with a Charge, Pounce and Manuvers don't stack. Most manuvers are standard actions.
It doesn't have to say that, the rules are quite clear on this:
MM1: "Pounce (Ex): When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack [...]."
Sample Maneuver: "You must make a charge attack as part of this maneuver." or: "This maneuver is considered a charge attack when determining if feats and other abilities apply to your attack."
I.e., if you have pounce and charge, you can make a full attack afterwards. If you make a charge as part of a maneuver, you do make a charge, thus you can pounce off of it. Whether that's balanced is another issue.
And what does maneuvers being standard actions have anything to do with it? Since you already can charge as a standard action by the core rules (and thus pounce off of it) [PHB, p.155], I fail to see the relevance of that comment.
The exception being if the manuver specifically involves a charge as part of the manuver. If it is not so mentioned, then they can't be combined.
===Aelryinth
Just curious though, Aelryinth, where did you find the ruling that manouver damage is never multiplied? The SRD states explicitly that extra dice are never multiplied, so fixed numbers should be, as far as I can see. Or is it somewhere in ToB? I understand your +100 damage example though, why it shouldn't.
manuvers are their own form of standard action. Charges are their own form of standard action. You can't use a manuver during a charge anymore then you can cast a spell as part of a charge.
The exception being if the manuver specifically involves a charge as part of the manuver. If it is not so mentioned, then they can't be combined.
As it stands, all that pounce requires is a charge. There is no requirement to have that charge come from a full-round action, a standard action or as part of a maneuver. Several maneuvers explicitly state that you do a charge as part of them, so pounce applies. If you have RAW to back you up on the contrary (instead of mere assertions), please cite it.
And nobody aruged that you can't use a maneuver during a charge, so please keep that out of the discussion.
Just curious though, Aelryinth, where did you find the ruling that manouver damage is never multiplied? The SRD states explicitly that extra dice are never multiplied, so fixed numbers should be, as far as I can see. Or is it somewhere in ToB? I understand your +100 damage example though, why it shouldn't.
See ToB, p. 43: "You do not multiply extra damage from a strike with a successful critical hit.".
This is an axception to the rule that fixed damage modifiers are multiplied on a critical hit.
Just curious though, Aelryinth, where did you find the ruling that manouver damage is never multiplied? The SRD states explicitly that extra dice are never multiplied, so fixed numbers should be, as far as I can see. Or is it somewhere in ToB? I understand your +100 damage example though, why it shouldn't.
See ToB, p. 43: "You do not multiply extra damage from a strike with a successful critical hit.".
This is an axception to the rule that fixed damage modifiers are multiplied on a critical hit.
Good catch. Still doesn't prevent the WR charge maneuvers that add flat bonus damage from getting multiplied via mounted combat cheese (lance, spirited charge, Rhino's Rush, etc...), though.
Also just to be nit-picky: Someone mentioned "charge is its own standard action." I know what he was trying to say, but it should be made clear: Charge is a full round action normally. You can only* charge as a standard action (at half the movement range) if you can only take a standard or move action on that round (say, due to it being a surprise round, you're slowed, or if you're a zombie).
*There are Boots of the Battlecharger, Cometary Collision, and some other exceptions. But...I was trying to not make this too complicated.
I don't have a problem with that, because Mounted Combat situations are rare enough that if I do manage to lance that T-Rex, I deserve to do some hefty damage!
==Aelryinth
That's probably why the fixed dmg bonuses from the charge are so much lower then the strikes of the same level...because they can get doubled on a charge.
I don't have a problem with that, because Mounted Combat situations are rare enough that if I do manage to lance that T-Rex, I deserve to do some hefty damage!
==Aelryinth
Oh, I don't mind, either. If any discipline should rock with mounted charges, it's White Raven.