Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 mortetheskull May 15, 2013 1:12:42	So, I'm playing a Walker in the Waste in a campaign.  I found the Walker in the Waste handbook ( community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... ) very helpful in general, but one thing is notably missing that I'd like some help on.  Namely, I'm interested in planning ahead a bit and seeing what class would be a good choice AFTER I've finished being a Walker in the Waste, become a Dry Lich, etc. My character is Chaotic Neutral, and if possible I want to stay that way and not go all-out evil.  That said, my DM is pretty lax about alignment restrictions, so if there's an evil-only class that could logically be justified to not be evil, it's probably fair game. My race is Gnoll, although it's not a standard DnD gnoll, but instead a homebrew race the DM made because he doesn't like DnD gnolls and prefers something more coyote-like, with small boosts to WIS and DEX and a penalty to INT (and no level adjustment). I'm entering Walker in the Waste with the standard Cleric 3 entry, taking the Sand domain so I qualify spell-wise by that point (my other domain in Planning, and I worship an adaptation of the Egyptian god Set).  I'm doing divine metamagic/persist.  I also, unconventionally I realize, channel positive energy, by which I mean I spontaneously cure wounds and I turn, rather than rebuke, undead.  I'll still be getting undead minion through animate dead, though.  This is a role-playing thing, and I realize it's sub-optimal, especially after I become a lich, but it's how I want to do that particular class feature. So, basically, I was interested in what would be a good prestige class after becoming a Dry Lich at level 13.  Obviously I want something that progresses my casting.  Beyond that, I have a few ideas I was interested in going with. 1. Pure caster.  Take a prestige class focused on making certain spells better/granting SLAs. 2. Get some physical abilities. Take a prestige class that (while still progressing my casting) gives me weapon and armor proficiencies, BAB progression, and some martial options.  That would be fun, since once I become a Lich I'll actually be fairly imposing physically, and can use my persisted spells on myself to be quite fearsome. 3. Something very necromancy-focused.  Not sure beyond that, because while good most necromancy PrCs have pretty hefty feat requirements or aren't full divine casting.  Theoretically, though, increasing my fear effects, getting more touch attack type things, increasing the HD on undead I can animate are all of interest to me. Things I have considered (and with seven levels to fill, it would probably be a combination of a few of these): Divine Disciple (player's guide to faerun): No heavy requirements, five levels of full casting, some neat abilities including a bonus domain, at the end I become a native outsider, which I'm not ENTIRELY sure how that stacks with being Undead and if that's beneficial at that point, but seems interesting. Contemplative: One level for bonus domain.  This is almost certainly going on my build at some point.  I may even do this before I finish Walker in the Waste, once I'm high enough level to qualify.  Take the Undeath domain for my bonus, get extra turning...this seems like a given, unless there's a PrC I really want exactly seven levels of. Divine Oracle: Two levels for Evasion in any armor and the Oracle domain is pretty good. Bone Knight: Thought about this, but I'm not sure if I want to give up the caster level at the beginning, I can only take it for seven levels, and it has some skill requirements I'm not sure I feel like working towards. Paragnostic Apostle: Not terribly optimal, but I have three levels of Cloistered Cleric and progressing lore a bit more would be kind of cool.  None of the class abilities are great, but slight boosts to caster level for some spells also aren't terrible. So, basically, any advice?  Any good choices I'm missing?
#2 draco1119 May 15, 2013 7:09:01	Have you checked Libris Mortis? It's got PrCs for the undead.
#3 EruditeApe May 15, 2013 8:33:48	LA. Don't take the last level of Walker in the Waste until level 20, or whatever the final level will be.
#4 draco1119 May 15, 2013 8:59:49	It helps if you explain WHY, dood.
#5 EruditeApe May 15, 2013 9:11:59	It helps if you explain WHY, dood. I did. First two letters of my post. I mean, I know OTTers don't actually read other's posts, but two letters isn't that much, is it?
#6 draco1119 May 15, 2013 9:59:51	Ah. See, I don't have It's Hot Outside, so I didn't know that the capstone of Walker gives you an automatic Level Adjustment. I thought it was built in, like the Dragon Disciple's.
#7 EruditeApe May 15, 2013 10:20:31	Ah. See, I don't have It's Hot Outside, so I didn't know that the capstone of Walker gives you an automatic Level Adjustment. I thought it was built in, like the Dragon Disciple's. Nope. Dry Liches have LA and WitW doesn't waive it, and you actually get the template, unlike Dread Necro. Of course, I personally waive that sort of thing in any games I run, but that's beside the point here.
#8 StevenO May 15, 2013 11:34:44	It's easy to see why draco missed "LA" as the reason NOT to take WotW10 until your last level.  When you throw out two letters without any context it isn't always clear what those letters mean. I don't have "IHO" either and thus lack the actual reference but based on the handbook I'll agree that WotW does NOT negate the Dry Lich's LA.  With the Dragon Disciple if you pull the half-dragon template out of the class (and with it three 'levels' while leaving the three additional HD) you may have a usable class.  If WotW is 8/10 spellcasting a Dry Lich is +5 LA pulling the template out would leave 8 levels of spellcasting for five class levels; you can agrue the LA is to high but it's still too much by my reckoning.
#9 mortetheskull May 15, 2013 11:41:17	The overwhelming concensus in the 3.5 community, and indeed on these boards as a whole, seems to be that WitW does wave the LA when it becomes a Dry Lich.  This has been argued back and forth to death and it's unlikely anyone is going to convince anyone else one way or the other at this point, but for this build we're going by the assumption that this is how it works, since my DM agrees with this general concensus.  My personal opinion is to agree with that, since otherwise there's virtually no advantage to the class ability, and other PrCs which gain templates don't take on level adjustments, but if you feel otherwise, that's cool, just not applicable to my situation.  This has been discussed a lot in the past, and I'm not terribly interested in hearing all the reasons one way is unbalanced as compared to the other, rules as written, rules as intended, etc.  I've seen the arguments both ways, but what it comes down to is my DM is allowing it without LA, so, no need to open up that situation again. And yeah, I've looked at the undead PrCs in Libris Mortis, but none of them seem to progress casting.  If there was one that did, it'd certainly be my preference.
#10 EruditeApe May 15, 2013 11:42:21	Because I'm going to be talking about Los Angeles on a D&D forum? Really? The overwhelming concensus in the 3.5 community, and indeed on these boards as a whole, seems to be that WitW does wave the LA when it becomes a Dry Lich. Wrong. See, the majority of the 3.5 community plays Dungeons and Dragons, not dolls and tea parties.  This has been argued back and forth to death and it's unlikely anyone is going to convince anyone else one way or the other at this point, but for this build we're going by the assumption that this is how it works, since my DM agrees with this general concensus.  My personal opinion is to agree with that, since otherwise there's virtually no advantage to the class ability, and other PrCs which gain templates don't take on level adjustments, but if you feel otherwise, that's cool, just not applicable to my situation. See, you should tell us this. It's important to know what rules you feel like tearing out and using as kindling or toilet paper before hand.
#11 mortetheskull May 15, 2013 12:03:16	Chill out, bro.  Holy crap.  Do you know how much of a jerk you look like right now, being so absurdly rude at such little provocation?  Just relax a little bit, haha.  If you don't like how this is be handled, fine, cool, but don't pretend the WitW level adjustment thing is a one-sided issue.  This has been a debate for a long time.  No need to get personally offended because someone doesn't view it the same way as you, and no need to respond to "here's some more information" so rudely.
#12 draco1119 May 15, 2013 12:17:19	Just ignore him; the rest of us usually do. I really like Contemplative. Bone Knight (Five Nations) might be an interesting choice, too.
#13 EruditeApe May 15, 2013 12:29:44	Chill out, bro.  Holy crap.  Do you know how much of a jerk you look like right now, being so absurdly rude at such little provocation? I have a decent idea. Just relax a little bit, haha. I am actually completely relaxed. This is a hobby.   If you don't like how this is be handled, fine, I have no objection to how it's being handled, in fact I honestly believe that's the best way to handle it. I have an objection to you claiming a houserule is the actual rules. don't pretend the WitW level adjustment thing is a one-sided issue. Except it is completely one-sided. The rules don't say you get out of the LA. Therefore you don't. This has been a debate for a long time. Sure. Evolution has been "debated" for a long time. Basic economic facts have been "debated" for decades. The heliocentric model and gravity were debated, and now some nutjobspeople are saying the entire field of embryology is "up for debate." In other words, despite what CNN would tell you, there being two sides does not mean that they are equally valid. No need to get personally offended because someone doesn't view it the same way as you, and no need to respond to "here's some more information" so rudely. I was not responding to "here's more information," I was responding to a false asserion, and I'd respond the same way to an assertion of universe being a few thousand years old, crocoducks, grass being pink and purple polka dotted, or Countdown to Final Crisis being anything but god-awful. Just ignore him; the rest of us usually do. No, you just ignore your own ignorance and bias. But, hey, whatever makes you feel better. I really like Contemplative. Bone Knight (Five Nations) might be an interesting choice, too. Contemplative is a good choice, but I have to recommend against Bone Knight. You give up a lot for the prereqs and lost CL and don't gain much.
#14 draco1119 May 15, 2013 12:39:36	Just had a thought: what about the Deadgrim from Magic of Eberron? All it takes is non-evil, Knowledge (Religion), and the ability to cast divine spells. It turns you into an undead-hunting undead anyway, so why not make it MOAR!?
#15 mortetheskull May 15, 2013 13:12:05	Deadgrim doesn't seem terribly appealing.  I lose one level of casting, and as far as I can tell all of the abilities I gain are either for combatting undead (which probably won't come up often enough to be a huge factor) or do things that I already basically have by merit of being a Lich.  Unless I'm missing something, I don't see how it's any better than just going back into Cleric, honestly.  Thanks for the suggestion, though! Any thoughts of Divine Disciple/how becoming a Native Outsider might/might not interact with being undead?
#16 Chrome-Gnome May 29, 2013 11:21:49	I suggest possibly going Evolved Undead. What level are you at now? Did you do early entry? You could always take more levels in your first class.