The character below has been updated with suggestions and personal touches. Please review this post again as there are some changes.
This is the third and possibly final personal revision. I am still considering replacing Quicken Spell and Divine Metamagic: Quicken Spell.
I want my character to deal some serious damage in melee and still be feared from a distance because of my spellcasting abilities, hopefully I have obtained that goal.
Race: Human
Classes: Cleric 4 / Ordained Champion 3 / Prestige Paladin of Tyranny 3 / Bone Knight 10
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Religion: Hextor, God of Tyranny
Stats:
Strength - 18 (+4)
Dexterity - 10 (+0)
Constitution - 16 (+3)
Intelligence - 13 (+1)
Wisdom - 17 (+3)
Charisma - 16 (+3)
Level 4, 8, 12 Bonus: +1 Wisdom
Level 16, 20 Bonus: + 1 Strength
Domains: War, Hunger, and Travel (Bonus)
Skills:
Craft (Armor) - 6 Ranks [Bone Knight]
Knowledge (Religion) - 7 Ranks [Prestige Paladin, Ordained Champion, Bone Knight]
Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) - 2 Ranks [Prestige Paladin]
Ride - 6 Ranks [Prestige Paladin, Bone Knight]
Class Benefits:
1 Cleric - Aura of Evil, Domains (War, Hunger), Turn Undead
2 Cleric
3 Cleric
4 Cleric
5 Ordained Champion - Bonus Domain (Travel), War Spontineity
6 Ordained Champion - Diehard, Smite
7 Ordained Champion - Channel Spell, Divine Bulwark
8 Prestige Paladin - Detect Good, Smite Good
9 Prestige Paladin - Deadly Touch, Divine Grace, Special Mount
10 Prestige Paladin - Aura of Despair, Divine Health
11 Bone Knight - Bonecraft Armor, Paladin Conversion, Rebuke Undead
12 Bone Knight - Bone March, Skeletal Steed
13 Bone Knight - Master of the White Banner
14 Bone Knight Improved Bonecraft Armor
15 Bone Knight Fill the Ranks 1/day
16 Bone Knight Bonecraft Weapon
17 Bone Knight Improved Bonecraft Armor
18 Bone Knight Exoskeleton of Undeath
19 Bone Knight Death Strike 1/day
20 Bone Knight Improved Bonecraft Armor
Character Creation Feat Selection:
Racial Feat: Able Learner
Human Bonus Feat: Practiced Spellcaster (Divine)
Domain Bonus Feat 1: Weapon Proficiency (Light Flail)
Domain Bonus Feat 2: Weapon Focus (Light Flail)
Flaw Bonus Feat 1: Power Attack
Flaw Bonus Feat 2: Mounted Combat
Flaws: Murky-Eyed (2 miss chances when opponent is concealed), Shaky (-2 to ranged attack spells)
Leveling Feat Selection:
1st Level Feat: Extend Spell
3rd Level Feat: Persistent Spell
6th Level Feat: Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell
6th Level Bonus Feat (Ordained Champion): Diehard
9th Level Feat: Reach Spell
12th Level Feat: Chain Spell
15th Level Feat: Quicken Spell
18th Level Feat: Divine Metamagic: Quicken Spell
House Rules:
+ Extra Turning for Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell
+ Extra Turning for Divine Metamagic: Quicken Spell
Drop Strength Devotion. It lets you bypass hardness, not DR, and the slam is less useful than you'd think.
Pick up Mounted Combat. (Hear me out here.)
Replace replace one level of Cleric with one level of Prestige Paladin.... of Tyranny.
(Combining the variants isn't usually a good idea, but here, they line up just fine.)
If you want, consider if the last two levels of Ordained Champion are worth it; you now have the option of two more levels of Prestige Paladin of Tyranny, which gives you an aura and a special mount based on your caster level.
Your base attack will be a bit higher,you'll get a few extra class features which are actually pretty useful, and most importantly you get all the paladin spells as well.
I've been working with a similar build for a while; yours is more focused on casting than mine, but it looks reasonably similar.
Stats:Strength - 18 (+4)
Dexterity - 10 (+0)
Constitution - 16 (+3)
Intelligence - 13 (+1)
Wisdom - 17 (+3)
Charisma - 16 (+3)Level 4 Bonus: +1 Wisdom
Level 8, 12, 16, 20 Bonuses: +1 Strength
I know nothing about the Ordained Champion or Bone Knight (including books in which they're found), but if you're going to have access to 9th-level spells, I would recommend hitting Wis 19 by 16th level.
Stats:Strength - 18 (+4)
Dexterity - 10 (+0)
Constitution - 16 (+3)
Intelligence - 13 (+1)
Wisdom - 17 (+3)
Charisma - 16 (+3)Level 4 Bonus: +1 Wisdom
Level 8, 12, 16, 20 Bonuses: +1 Strength
I know nothing about the Ordained Champion or Bone Knight (including books in which they're found), but if you're going to have access to 9th-level spells, I would recommend hitting Wis 19 by 16th level.
Seconding this. Especially if you keep OC 5, which lets you use your Wisdom score in place of your Strength score in every place that matters.
Ordained Champion is in Complete Cheeseball. It's a full-base-attack class that you can enter with just four levels of cleric, so long as you've got the right god(s). [Btw, the "right gods" basically amount to any War-domain god.] It costs you two caster levels (1st and 4th), but otherwise the chassis is amazing. It's got a bunch of 'sacrifice a spell slot or turn attempt to gain combat benefits based on your class level' abilities, all of which are welcome. It also grants a bonus domain (War if you don't have it, free choice if you do) and allows you to exchange some domain benefits for Fighter bonus feats, and in its only real drawback, replaces your spontaneous casting with War domain spells. (i.e. you can no longer spontaneously heal things.) It also, surprisingly, grants one of the best Smites in the game (it costs you a turn attempt to do and uses your effective turning level as your smite class level - you'll note this gives cleric/OCs significantly better smiting than paladins.). It combines very nicely with Bone Knight and Prestige Paladin, particularly since all of these classes advance turning, and OC gives all the missing class skills to qualify for both PrCs (i.e. Ride and Knowledge:Nobility).
Bone Knight is in Five Nations, and it's the Karrnath PrC. As the name and location suggests, it's basically a necromantic paladin, but the PrC also works with Good characters (although it relies on Eberron's relaxing of alignment-based casting to do it, you could be a Lawful Good leader of an undead army). It's not too difficult to qualify for as a cleric or a paladin (slightly easier for paladins, but the benefits are better for clerics), and is full base attack with 9/10 casting (lose at 1st). It relaxes the paladin oaths slightly, alters their powers slightly to interact better with undead (i.e. your special mount becomes a skeletal horse, and Lay on Hands can heal undead), and contains two "themes" of abilities. The first is undead leadership, giving you a separate pool of HD to control (beyond rebuking and animating) and a few special abilities based around having an undead retinue, including the apparently unique ability to raise Karrnathi skeletons and zombies. The second is bone armor - you craft your own suit of skeletal armor that, with class levels, eventually gives you most of the benefits of being Undead without actually making you undead. It's one of the few PrCs that the portrait tells you nearly everything you need to know.
Combining the two is a classic way to make a warrior-cleric, provided you're comfortable around the undead. Adding in Prestige Paladin of Tyranny as I suggested above (to bootstrap up the Bone Knight's paladin advancement and expand the spell list even more) is a less common addition that, as near as I can tell, wasn't actually brought up on these boards during the heyday of Complete Cheeseball.
Here's the build I was working on, using two flaws and mixing in Prestige Paladin 3 early on. The working title is
"Lord of the Fallen".
Note: The initial domains were chosen for prerequisite feats (you need both here); the bonus domain was chosen as Spell for access to Anyspell (Divine Persist arcane spells now?). The bonus domain from OC does not grant its granted ability (that was traded in to get feats), so it's not a bad choice here. That said, if you don't like Spell, pick any other extra domain on the basis of its spells.
Human. Works with Strongheart Halfling, but is less effective. Azurin or Silverbrow Human also work, but the lost skill points make qualification tough.
Initial 28pb scores: 13/8/12/10/15/14.
Boost Str at 4 (early enough for it to matter), then Wisdom all the way Once Wisdom hits 18 (9th level spells only come online at 20th, and you can probably tome to 19 or 20 with ease), switch to pumping Charisma (which you should also be toming if you can, regardless of your wisdom).
Higher point-buys should round Strength to 14 and then boost Constitution; boosting a 14 or 15 (Cha/Wis) gets diminishing returns but remains a valid alternative.
If traits are allowed too, include Slow - you're mounted most of the time, and that trait's basically a free Improved Toughness if you're mounted. I'm also a fan of the Aggressive trait - it's a cheap way to boost Initiative if you aren't all that Dexterity-heavy, and heavy armor easily ameliorates the lost AC.
Ideal flaws for this guy include the usual Murky-Eyed (which, btw, Awesome Smite can work through) and Shaky (few ranged attacks), but I'm a fan of the Dragon flaws, particularly Insomniac (as you don't depend on fitful sleep to regain divine spells, you get a high Fortitude save anyway, and eventually become immune to fatigue).
Note: The initial domains were chosen for prerequisite feats (you need both here); the bonus domain was chosen as Spell for access to Anyspell (Divine Persist arcane spells now?). The bonus domain from OC does not grant its granted ability (that was traded in to get feats), so it's not a bad choice here. That said, if you don't like Spell, pick any other extra domain on the basis of its spells.
Human. Works with Strongheart Halfling, but is less effective. Azurin or Silverbrow Human also work, but the lost skill points make qualification tough.
Initial 28pb scores: 13/8/12/10/15/14.
Boost Str at 4 (early enough for it to matter), then Wisdom all the way Once Wisdom hits 18 (9th level spells only come online at 20th, and you can probably tome to 19 or 20 with ease), switch to pumping Charisma (which you should also be toming if you can, regardless of your wisdom).
Higher point-buys should round Strength to 14 and then boost Constitution; boosting a 14 or 15 (Cha/Wis) gets diminishing returns but remains a valid alternative.
If traits are allowed too, include Slow - you're mounted most of the time, and that trait's basically a free Improved Toughness if you're mounted. I'm also a fan of the Aggressive trait - it's a cheap way to boost Initiative if you aren't all that Dexterity-heavy, and heavy armor easily ameliorates the lost AC.
Ideal flaws for this guy include the usual Murky-Eyed (which, btw, Awesome Smite can work through) and Shaky (few ranged attacks), but I'm a fan of the Dragon flaws, particularly Insomniac (as you don't depend on fitful sleep to regain divine spells, you get a high Fortitude save anyway, and eventually become immune to fatigue).
1 Cleric Turn Undead, Domains (War, Planning) Dreadful Wrath, Mounted Combat, Power Attack, Ride-By Attack, +Extend Spell +Weapon Focus
2 Cleric
3 Cleric Extra Turning
4 Cleric
5 Ordained Champion War Spontineity, Spell domain Spirited Charge
6 Ordained Champion Smite Diehard, Persistent Spell
7 Prestige Paladin Detect/Smite [Good/Evil]
8 Prestige Paladin Special Mount, Divine Grace, [Deadly Touch/Lay on Hands]
9 Prestige Paladin Divine Health, Aura of [Courage /Despair /Resolve /Debilitation] Awesome Smite
10 Bone Knight Bonecraft armor, rebuke undead, Paladin Conversion
11 Bone Knight Bone March, Skeletal Steed
12 Bone Knight Master of the White Banner Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)
13 Bone Knight Improved bonecraft armor
14 Bone Knight Fill the Ranks 1/day
15 Bone Knight Bonecraft weapon Practiced Spellcaster
16 Bone Knight Improved bonecraft armor
17 Bone Knight Exoskeleton of Undeath
18 Bone Knight Death Strike 1/day Holy Warrior OR Extra Turning
19 Bone Knight Improved bonecraft armor
20 Ordained Champion Channel Spell, Divine Bulwark
Base attack +19, casts as a 17th level cleric at CL 20, full turning and between casting/turning/Bone March, can command up to 140HD worth of undead (hence the "Lord" part of the title; the "fallen" is a double pun). Capable smite effects (effective level 20) and a damn good charger on the side, particularly from the back of his skeletal mount (effective paladin level 16, so it gets all the goodies there too). Also comes with the usual Divine Persist effects, but also packs Anyspell, so he can persist a few good arcane spells as well (which lets you work in shapechanging if you want). Also gets amazing Charisma synergy (all saves, Lay on Hands, Turn attempts, a Turn-Undead based Smite, turn resistance to your undead allies, and the usual fear goodies, plus the DC on a few of your abilities). Assuming no equipment except this particular type's typical ability score boosters (+6 Cha/Wis, +4 Str/Con - I'm excluding tomes here as they're less ubiquitous), it also gets amazing saving throws (+25/+10/+27) and a respectable average HP (186 with the Slow trait), as well as virtually every immunity undead have (the only missing ones are the Fort-save immunity and mind-affecting) and some DR (5/Bludgeoning).
Interestingly, it is NOT dependent upon alignment - it can work with any of the paladin alignments, even changing between them mid-game (post level 10, the only thing he loses between Atonements is his smite ability and spontaneous casting), so he can work well with the Heel/Face Revolving Door or any corruption or redemption narratives. All you need is a deity with access to the War domain who is not True Neutral, and you're good to go. (For every little +1 you can find, you want Favored Weapon (Lance) as well, but realistically that doesn't matter much. Remember that in Eberron, clerics are NOT bound to alignment on their spells (although casting spells of a given alignment is an act of that alignment, which interferes with the paladin code until you get Paladin Conversion).
The feat timing is rather loose and can be adjusted as you want, particularly adjusting when Divine Metamagic comes online. The possible Extra Turning / Holy Warrior choice is made based on whether +Charisma items or Nightsticks are available; if no, you want the turns, if yes, you want Holy Warrior. (That feat is actually nifty enough here that you might want to take it earlier when melee matters more - since you spontaneously cast War spells, it just looks at your highest-level uncast spell.)
If you don't like mixing Faerun and Eberron material, drop Dreadful Wrath (Player's Guide to Faerun) and Awesome Smite (a smite-based tactical feat) to pick up Improved Bull Rush and Shock Trooper (oldies but goodies; here I wanted to see if I could do a decent charger without them). If you have to make do without flaws, or you want Shock Trooper without dropping Awesome Smite, drop Ride-By Attack and Spirited Charge and focus on being on the ground instead. (You still need Mounted Combat as a feat for Prestige Paladin, so you can't just "get its benefits" from magic items; you actually need the feat.) If you drop these feats, you can still get the Ride-By Attack effect (allowing repeated charging) with Riding Boots (MIC); if you happen to keep Spirited Charge, they come with an extra benefit for you as well.
A build I've toyed around with is something like:
Cleric 1 / Crusader 4 / Ur-Priest 2 / Bone Knight 10 / XXX 3 (I was musing with Ruby Knight Vindicator)
The straight core paladin can't become a bone knight.
I had to point out the relevant alignment adn undead stuff with Keith Baker before he agreed I was right
You can potentially be a LG Bone Knight...you just can't be a LG Paladin.==Aelryinth
Feats:Flaw 1 Bonus: Power Strike
Flaw 2 Bonus: Mounted Combat
Human Bonus: Law Devotion
War Domain: Weapon Proficiency (Light Flail)
War Domain: Weapon Focus (Light Flail)
Racial Feat: Able Learner
1st Level Feat: Tomb-Tainted Soul
3rd Level Feat: Reach Spell
6th Level Feat: Chain Spell
7th Level Feat (Ordained Champion): Diehard
9th Level Feat: Quicken Spell
10th Level Feat (Ordained Champion): Holy Warrior
12th Level Feat: Divine Metamagic: Quicken Spell
15th Level Feat: Heighten Spell
18th Level Feat: Divine Metamagic: Heighten Spell
Umm... Why aren't you Persisting like crazy? If you don't need Tomb-Tainted for a PrC, and it's availble after first level, you could have DMM (Persist Spell) at level 6. Just in time for fun things like Divine Power and Freedom of Movement.
What do you mean about not needed Tomb-Tainted Soul?
Keep in mind I'm new, just want to point that out if my ignorance in the these questions might insult you somehow
.Tomb-Tainted Soul is only good if everyone in the party has it and the group has copious amounts of negative energy damage (Dread Necromancer, for example).
Keep in mind that using Animate Dead, negative energy and the like are Evil acts under the paladin code. A paladin who enters the PrC promptly becomes an Ex-paladin...unless you're using 'of Tyranny' or the like, where being Good is unneccessary.
The straight core paladin can't become a bone knight.
I had to point out the relevant alignment adn undead stuff with Keith Baker before he agreed I was right
==Aelryinth
Ahem.
Paladin Conversion: If you were a paladin or ex-paladin before becoming a bone knight, you can never again advance levels as a paladin, since your association with the undead forever taints you. However, you retain (or regain) certain paladin abilities, including divine grace, lay on hands, aura of courage, divine health, and spellcasting. You cannot detect or smite evil or remove disease. You can use your lay on hands ability to cure living or undead creatures. You lose the service of your special mount (but see the summon skeletal steed ability, below).
You're an ex-paladin by merely taking one level of bone knight anyway, but you retain pretty much everything that mattered from the class. Interestingly, the prerequisites and all of the abilities, with the only exceptions of actually Rebuking or raising undead yourself via Fill the Ranks (which is an SLA of Animate Dead, inheriting the Evil descriptor), are not evil acts.
Yep, that's right. All the bonecraft armor abilities, and even the ability to summon skeletal steeds and even control undead via Bone March, are NOT evil acts, nor do the involve channelling negative energy. Even the death strike avoids that problem (as, interestingly enough, death effects are not themselves evil; just ask the Slayer of Domiel. Nor are they against the paladin code, unless they involve poison. The only way they could be against the code is if they're delivered dishonorably, and it's quite easy to use a death strike with honor). Thanks to paladin conversion, even Lay on Hands is unchanged, despite healing undead now. Still not negative energy - in fact, it's whatever undescribed energy (presumably but not clearly positive energy) that it used before. (Oddly, it seems it can still be used to damage undead, as the conversion ability only changes what it can heal, not what it can damage.)
The only Evil acts associated with the class are actually raising undead with Evil spells (while the ability to get Karrnathi skeletons and zombies is a loss early on, you have Bone March, which lets you control the better undead that your cleric-based buddy (or, given that this is Karrnath, the military) can pass to you; later on, the fact that Fill the Ranks only creates Karrnathi skeletons and zombies means that it becomes irrelevant compared to the undead you can simply assume control of, freeing up the allied cleric's ability to command the Corps of the Honored Dead), and rebuking undead (also big whoop, you're spending those attempts on divine feats and Ordained Champion smites anyway, so you never actually rebuke). These are not required to enter the class, nor are they required to play it. By your logic, the freaking Master of Radiance is an evil PrC because people entering it can learn to cast Animate Dead and might choose to use it.
Thanks to Paladin Conversion, the only paladin abilities you lose, as a Lawful Good Paladin entering Bone Knight, are access to Detect Evil and Smite Evil, along with the gamebreakingly powerful ability that everyone's lining up to get, Remove Disease Fewer Times A Week Than Your Adept Hireling Can Cast Before Lunchtime. (Whoop de doo, most PrCs (including BK) don't advance either ability, so after a while the former is a good ticket to you getting stunned and the latter becomes irrelevant (+4 damage once a day, whee); Ordained Champion's smite is significantly better). Incidentally, it would appear (through substitution) that even a paladin of tyranny would lose his Detect and Smite abilities as well thanks to this ability, but the remainder would still function just peachy. It's also worth noting that Conversion says "retain (or regain)", clearly indicating different verbs if you're dealing with a paladin in good standing and an ex-paladin.
I don't see any mechanical support for your claim that a straight paladin can't become a bone knight. He most certainly can, and even continue to use most paladin abilities - in effect, he doesn't ever actually fall. He just gives up the ability to level up as a paladin, which is a far cry from falling (unless you'd argue that a LG Paladin 3 / Fighter 2 who lives and breathes the Code and alignment has "fallen" simply because he can't take more levels of paladin - note that the wording ). He also gives up detect and smite, and gets a different mount. Everything else remains exactly the same.
In fact, this is a nice corollary to the way Karrnath sees the Corps of the Honored Dead. The association with undeath may taint you, but you can still serve alongside them and fulfil your paladin vows (although other faiths may be too dogmatic to understand, particularly those zealots from Thrane, hence the secondary fluff quote from Dania ir’Vran).
And all of this remains valid with the prestige paladin as well, as it has an identical code of conduct to the paladin.
Ferinus, I am of the opinion that levels 4 and 5 of OC are less useful than 2 and 3 of the prestige paladin of tyranny, particularly if you have Bone Knight levels. (I.e. choosing between Prestige Paladin 1 / Ordained Champion 5, and Prestige Paladin 3 / Ordained Champion 3.) Both approaches cost you one caster level and provide identical increases in base attack, so realistically the difference is going to be the class features. Let's look at which one gives you better abilities. (Hint: There's a reason I chose PrPal 3 in the Lord of the Fallen build.)
Ordained Champion 4-5 gives you two extra rounds of DR*/Chaotic (*=level of sacrificed spell, i.e. usually not a good tradeoff), the Fist of the Gods ability (not bad, but see below), Rapid Spontaneous Spellcasting (of WAR spells? This is the best ability you'd get from these levels, and it's painfully limited), +2 CL to War spells (every one of them (except Divine Power, which is less useful here since you have nearly full base attack anyway) have a hard cap coded into them, which means this boost isn't as useful as it looks), and the Holy Warrior ability (different from the feat of the same name, and this is less useful to you since your Strength is so high relative to your Wisdom). You also get +1 Will relative to the paladin, and two extra rounds of the Travel domain (assuming you didn't trade it in), as none of your other domains provide level-based abilities
[Note: I see a small mistake here: The 5th level of OC grants an Ability called Holy Warrior, not the Holy Warrior feat. The ability lets you swap Wisdom for Strength in combat if you burn turn attempts (which could be used to smite or metamagic, ergo trap). The feat is basically a superior version of Fist of the Gods - since you have the ability to spontaneously cast war spells, the feat automatically adds +[your highest uncast spell slot, minimum +4] to all melee damage, while the ability requires you to spend your swift action (d'oh!) and a spell slot to add one whole point of damage over what Holy Warrior would give you if that slot remained uncast, and the ability doesn't last all that long either. If you like Fist of the Gods, take the Holy Warrior feat and never look back.]
Prestige Paladin 2-3 gives DIVINE GRACE (i.e. "No, I don't think that will stop me either"), a weak lay on hands / Deadly Touch ability (more useful for topping up your undead, I'm afraid), several extra levels towards your skeletal mount (note that this puppy doesn't get Constitution, so every boost to HD really helps keeping it alive), AURA OF DESPAIR (the real ZOMG of Paladin of Tyranny, always useful, and amazing synergy with OC3's Channel Spell or any killer touch spell), and Divine Health (not all that useful, but it can be obtained earlier than the bone knight's immunity). You also get +4 HP relative to the OC.
[Aside: Two extra prestige paladin levels gives you five extra levels related to the mount (the prestige paladin starts it off with a big boost), which is more than enough to go from the second line on the mount table to the last line. This means your mount gets four extra HD, four extra natural armor, +2 Strength, +2 Intelligence, the "Command creatures of its kind" ability (which depends on how you interpret it - if it lets you command just skeleton horses, it's meek, but if it affects other undead? Wow.) and SPELL RESISTANCE. (Not all that much, mind you (should be SR 21), but it's still significantly better than nothing, particularly if the marginal cost to get it is so low.)]
In my opinion, Divine Grace and Aura of Despair (both always-on abilities that clearly synergize with the rest of your build), along with the superior mount (to the point where it isn't a liability anymore) clearly outweigh two extra rounds of under-par DR, a few unsynergistic class features (seriously, did the authors even look at what was on the war domain when they wrote it?), and a few nifty class features which are less useful in your particular build due to your domain and ability score choices.
(If you were using another prestige paladin, the tradeoff is a bit less clear since their auras are nowhere near as desirable as the Tyranny paladin's.)
Your words intrigue me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
The main reason I am not (although yes those extra turning feats scream for me to) is because we already have a bard to handle buffs. If you can help suggest some nice damage bonuses that can come from Persist I might want to pick it up (perhaps trade Law Devotion).
Divine Power, 4th-level spell: BAB = caster level (which can be higher than your HD with a couple of items [and using the Practiced Caster feat, which isn't really necessary]) and adds a significant enhancement bonus to Str
Righteous Might, 5th-level spell: Become Large, even bigger size bonus to Str & Con, enhancement bonus to natural armor, DR based on caster level
And that's just the stuff in the PHB. There's more in the Spell Compendium, PHB2, et al.
What do you mean about not needed Tomb-Tainted Soul?
If it's not a prereq for one of your PrCs, and it's not a "1st level only" feat, like Able Learner, then you shouldn't take it at 1st level. Level 1 - Extend Spell, Level 3 - Persist Spell, Level 6 - DMM (Persist)
Keep in mind I'm new, just want to point that out if my ignorance in the these questions might insult you somehow
Absolutely not. I still learn new things here, myself.
Tempest,
Your words intrigue me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
This.
And then argue around the point. Heh.
Basically, if you are a paladin and enter Bone Knight, you become an ex-paladin and lose it all. The PrC then allows you to 'get back' certain abilities...the ones that are actually useful to the class. Practically, there's no difference.
i.e. another case of an overpowered PrC. Kinda like the Grey Guardian...hey, I can do evil acts now and don't lose my paladinhood, I just need to atone! type of thing.
The Bone Knight is considered one of the most overpowered PrC's in the game. Eberron had several of them (Citadel Agent, Weretouched Master, etc). Nicely overpowered setting, and true to the PrC's must be better then core class concept.
==Aelryinth
i.e. another case of an overpowered PrC. Kinda like the Grey Guardian...hey, I can do evil acts now and don't lose my paladinhood, I just need to atone! type of thing.
How is the Gray Guard an example of being overpowered? Half of its special abilities are just being able to use your smite freely, and most of the other half are about being act a little bit more freely. It otherwise only gains a couple of minor abilities over the standard paladin, for which it gives up five levels of paladin spellcasting, special mount advancement, remove disease uses, and turn undead strength (not that these last two are of any real significance for the typical paladin).
Considering replacing DMM Quicken Spell (because I'll probably burn all my turn attempts on good buff each day with Persistant Spell). I am now getting the Dragon Steed feat as its replacement.
Problem: Bone knight forces your mount to have the Skeletal template. Skeletons lose any fly speed that wasn't magic (i.e. a Nightmare will still fly). Dragons, who fly with wings, will be grounded if skeletal. The only mounts worth investing resources into (without using Supermount! schenatigans) all fly. Basically, Dragon Steed + Bone Knight is a waste.
(Note: I know there's a dragon skeleton and dragon zombie template out there, but I don't remember them offhand. I'd be willing to bet that the skeleton zombie still doesn't fly, though.)
You'd get much more mileage - and perhaps a book to the face - by taking Undead Leadership. Zombie dragons still fly, if you insist on a dragon mount.
Tempest, you do realize that what you did was say: Aelryinth is right, and here's the posting saying so?
And then argue around the point. Heh.
Basically, if you are a paladin and enter Bone Knight, you become an ex-paladin and lose it all. The PrC then allows you to 'get back' certain abilities...the ones that are actually useful to the class. Practically, there's no difference.
Not really. Let me illustrate.
Ael, you're a Lawful Good Paladin 2. You take a level of Fighter. This trips the paladin multiclass clause, so you can never again take a level of paladin. However, you retain all your paladin class features, so long as you continue to follow the paladin code. Are you an "ex-Paladin" (a term the D&D rules use only sparingly, and tend to use synonymously with "fallen paladin")? Or can you simply not take levels of paladin anymore?
The answer to that question is identical to what happens to a Lawful Good Paladin who takes a level of bone knight, provided he does not rebuke undead (which is explicitly an evil act - not that it matters, you're still just using the attempts for divine feats anyway) and does not use his Fill the Ranks ability (which copies an [Evil] spell). He can still use his bonecraft armor and linked class features, his skeletal steed (this alters his Special Mount spell-like ability, and isn't an evil effect), his death strike (as the Slayer of Domiel shows, death effects are not evil; the paladin merely has to deliver the strike "honorably"), and - surprisingly - even his Bone March / Master of the White Banner abilities (neither is Evil nor do they involve negative energy - Bone March simply is a transfer of control of one or more undead from someone else to you).
If you're a LG paladin, and enter Bone Knight, you do not lose it all, any more than you 'lose it all' and become a fallen paladin if you take a level in, say, Devoted Defender or Eternal Blade (or indeed any other PrC that doesn't say "paladins can continue to advance as paladins"). So long as you continue to uphold the code, you lose only what is mentioned under Paladin Conversion. And that same ability, you'll note, says RETAIN - i.e. you do not lose the abilities in the first place. (It also says "Regain" in the case of an ex-paladin taking levels in bone knight - they've lost their abilities and now regain them. But in the case of a paladin in good standing, they "retain" their powers - i.e. they never lose them, i.e. they never fall).
If the Paladin / Bone Knight strays from the paladin code, though, all bets are off - they fall. However, the Paladin Conversion ability is not tied to the paladin code, so if he does fall, he doesn't actually lose anything that he didn't already lose already thanks to that ability. (The same is true for bone knight spellcasting, which applies the same principle explicitly to paladin spellcasting.)
Read up on Karrnath. The undead do not have the same stigma as they do just about everywhere else - it's called the Corps of the Honored Dead for a reason. A poor commander leads their men into death - a great commander leads them through it. Remember that Eberron is a world of grey morality, one that explicitly removes the alignment-based restriction from divine casters. The spells themselves retain their aligned nature, but you aren't blanket-banned from using them. (As I said, though, more traditional paladin orders do exist, particularly in Thrane.) As such, judging them by Gygaxian Greyhawk standards is about as silly as judging Greyhawk characters by Dark Sun standards ("What's that? You're reading? Do you want to provoke the police?").
i.e. another case of an overpowered PrC. Kinda like the Grey Guardian...hey, I can do evil acts now and don't lose my paladinhood, I just need to atone! type of thing.
You're letting your AD&D bias show again, Ael. The paladin (even with Grey Guard) suffers from BIJNTU - But It's Just Not That Uber. Their reputation as being so amazing you needed to adhere to a code to prevent you from going over the top and steamrolling everyone else came from editions prior to third, and even there that was largely an informed ability.
The Bone Knight is considered one of the most overpowered PrC's in the game. Eberron had several of them (Citadel Agent, Weretouched Master, etc). Nicely overpowered setting, and true to the PrC's must be better then core class concept.
I love how you zero in on the Citadel Agent and Weretouched Master but ignore the real brokenness that appeared in Eberron (Planar Shepherd in particular - gee, let's make a PrC that's better than the druid - but Sovereign Speaker comes a close second). I admit Bone Knight is strong, but a huge portion of that is how overpowering clerics are - entering it with a paladin core results in a character who isn't a waste of space. (The first few levels of paladin are fine but tend to grant diminishing returns past level 2; any level past 5 is a waste and even then it's not always worth going that far.)
i.e. another case of an overpowered PrC. Kinda like the Grey Guardian...hey, I can do evil acts now and don't lose my paladinhood, I just need to atone! type of thing.
The Grey Guardian is kind of awful...?
It gives reduced costs for atonement quests. Even when I was first getting into DND and played with people who enforced paladin falls, we never had anyone go on an atonement quest. The idea that you would devote a prestige class to it baffels me. If you really cared about it, you could probably argue your actions as not evil anyway?
The only reason I would consider one is if your DM is known for having paladins fall, tells a really good story, and is starting at a high enough level that you can finish the entire class before the game begins. Even then, I'd still be tempted to just not play a paladin in name that game. And refluff a fighter or cleric.
The Bone Knight is considered one of the most overpowered PrC's in the game. Eberron had several of them (Citadel Agent, Weretouched Master, etc). Nicely overpowered setting, and true to the PrC's must be better then core class concept.
I love how you zero in on the Citadel Agent and Weretouched Master but ignore the real brokenness that appeared in Eberron (Planar Shepherd in particular - gee, let's make a PrC that's better than the druid - but Sovereign Speaker comes a close second).
*sigh*
I'm working on building my Eberron collection. I have the ECS, PGtE, RoE, MoE, and Explorer's Handbook. I have Five Nations on order (and due to arrive in a couple days). IIRC, the Weretouched Master is in the ECS; I know (thanks to this thread) the BK is in 5N, but where are the others found?
The Bone Knight is considered one of the most overpowered PrC's in the game. Eberron had several of them (Citadel Agent, Weretouched Master, etc). Nicely overpowered setting, and true to the PrC's must be better then core class concept.
I love how you zero in on the Citadel Agent and Weretouched Master but ignore the real brokenness that appeared in Eberron (Planar Shepherd in particular - gee, let's make a PrC that's better than the druid - but Sovereign Speaker comes a close second).
*sigh*
I'm working on building my Eberron collection. I have the ECS, PGtE, RoE, MoE, and Explorer's Handbook. I have Five Nations on order (and due to arrive in a couple days). IIRC, the Weretouched Master is in the ECS; I know (thanks to this thread) the BK is in 5N, but where are the others found?
The Citadel Agent is in Sharn: City of Towers (actually one of my favorite Eberron books, even though it's got next to no crunch in it and what's there isn't all that memorable), while the other two are in Faiths of Eberron. (Remember, for any X, the divine version of X >>>>>>> X. Nowhere in all of 3.5 is that more obvious than the Planar Shepherd (why, yes, I do think I'll take ten minutes of actions on my turn, thank you very much); the Sovereign Speaker isn't much better.)
The Citadel Agent is in Sharn: City of Towers (actually one of my favorite Eberron books, even though it's got next to no crunch in it and what's there isn't all that memorable), while the other two are in Faiths of Eberron. (Remember, for any X, the divine version of X >>>>>>> X. Nowhere in all of 3.5 is that more obvious than the Planar Shepherd (why, yes, I do think I'll take ten minutes of actions on my turn, thank you very much); the Sovereign Speaker isn't much better.)
Thanks for the info. I admit to hoping that you were going to tell me that the Citadel Agent was the Brelish entry in 5N. Oh, well.
One level of Grey Guard means you can 'cheat' and do Evil things and not fall, forever. You don't need to take ten levels of the class for that, correct?
Likewise, Tempest's examples basically come around to 'as long as you don't use the evil things the class is capable of, you stay a paladin.' Which means, as long as you don't use the class the way its supposed to be used, and your DM allows it, you're not good.
And Tempest, I'd have to oppose you on a couple grounds. Having an undead mount is definitely going to violate the paladin code. Likewise, taking control of undead for purposes other then putting them to rest is going to violate the paladin code. I'll agree that bone armor specifically does not...but the effects of the bone armor, effectively giving you undead immunities without being undead, are a stupendous class benefit even without everything else the class hands out.
I'm fully aware of Karnath's take on things. But Karnath is a LE=biased nation. What it considers 'good for the nation' is not Good in the slightest, as the adherents of the Silver Flame are more then happy to point out. Karnath's willingness to bend morals has no effect on the paladin's code. Good is something far greater then one nation.
And yeah, I knew about the Planar Shepherd and the Sovereign SPeaker and how they could be abused, but they're like Incantatrixes...so broken it's not even worth calling them abusable. I mean, seriously, wildshaping into efreet for 3 free wishes a day>? Nine different domains and their bonus spells at one time?
The fact being a bone knight makes a paladin 'worthwhile' is a completely different argument then what we are having. I personally believe if you took all the undead control/command stuff out of the class, and just gave it bone armor and paladin caster levels, you'd be FINE...it'd be a great anti-undead class.
Making it an undead controlling/leading class is something that should belong to fighter/clerics and FALLEN paladins.
==Aelryinth
The Citadel Agent is in Sharn: City of Towers (actually one of my favorite Eberron books, even though it's got next to no crunch in it and what's there isn't all that memorable), while the other two are in Faiths of Eberron. (Remember, for any X, the divine version of X >>>>>>> X. Nowhere in all of 3.5 is that more obvious than the Planar Shepherd (why, yes, I do think I'll take ten minutes of actions on my turn, thank you very much); the Sovereign Speaker isn't much better.)
Thanks for the info. I admit to hoping that you were going to tell me that the Citadel Agent was the Brelish entry in 5N. Oh, well.
Note that the Citadel Agent and Weretouched Master have both been errata'd. The Citadel Agent lost his anti-Dex ability and something else, and the WM lost basically all the werebeast stat buffs (I mean, seriously, +16 Str bonus and more for 5 levels in a class?).
In a nod to Tempest, I don't believe Planar Shepherd and Sovereign Speaker ever were.
==Aelryinth
I was pointing out the the Bone Knight gives a paladin the ability to walk around his code, if the DM allows it...Just liek the Grey Guardian does.
One level of Grey Guard means you can 'cheat' and do Evil things and not fall, forever. You don't need to take ten levels of the class for that, correct?
Sacrament of trust (that 1st-level ability of the gray guard) doesn't prevent you from falling; you still fall if you break your code of conduct, it's just easier to atone and regain your abilities if you did it for a good reason, because the person casting atonement for you doesn't lose XP for doing so.
Sacrament of the true faith does prevent you from falling, but that's the 10th-level ability.
I was pointing out the the Bone Knight gives a paladin the ability to walk around his code, if the DM allows it...Just liek the Grey Guardian does.
No, not really. If you stray from the straight and narrow, you aren't a paladin anymore (it's just that the effects of the fall aren't as noticable). And, in fact, Paladin Conversion actually strips powers from you (Detect Evil and Smite Evil) even if you remain on the straight and narrow.
You're still letting your previous editions bias show, though - the paladin is not uber enough in 3.5 to justify its obscene, argument-causing, player-friendship-ending nature, so a class like the grey guard isn't worth fainting over.
One level of Grey Guard means you can 'cheat' and do Evil things and not fall, forever. You don't need to take ten levels of the class for that, correct?
As Slagger points out, no, you do need TEN levels in Grey Guard for it to be even close to what you're suggesting. A one-level dip means that your code of conduct is no longer on a grim trigger, but rather is exactly on par with every other code of conduct ever printed in 3.5 that wasn't a carbon copy of the paladin's. You CAN pull a full Goldwater and employ extremism in the defense of the faith, or you can make a simple mistake (remember, the paladin code is very unforgiving), but you're still saddled with an Atonement if you want your (BIJNTU) paladin powers back - and Atonement is expressly stated to usually require a Quest before they'll be used. That's not exactly a trivial revolving door.
Now, there's a problem with this - namely, Atonement is available to PCs and the cost isn't substantial (500xp is pretty trivial). I know the typical solution is simple: if the party cleric requests an Atonement, their god simply says "no" if they foresee the cleric using it on the paladin without performing a Quest first. This isn't ideal, though, since the rules for granting divine spells oddly do not allow this kind of natural decision. Personally, I'd just make Atonement one of those ill-defined rituals that only NPCs can do (by acting as the vessel of the deity itself), and they expressly require a Quest to do it. But I'm not writing 3e now, am I?
Likewise, Tempest's examples basically come around to 'as long as you don't use the evil things the class is capable of, you stay a paladin.' Which means, as long as you don't use the class the way its supposed to be used, and your DM allows it, you're not good.
Really, Ael? Take another look at the Bone Knight. It grants a lot of class features and full casting. The only ones it has that violates the paladin code are its ability to create undead (which actually gets pretty bad as you go up in levels since it can only create two specific low-CR undead) and its ability to rebuke undead (which no one uses anyway). He can still assume control of undead (Bone March), grant them turn resistance (Master of the White Banner), wear some pretty badass armor (Bonecraft Armor), and deliver death strikes (Death Strike). The "evil" things the class is capable of are pretty minor.
Here's an analogous situation: You're a cleric with, for some reason, the old prohibition against edged weapons. You enter a class that grants full casting, loads of generally useful class features (which, for sake of argument, aren't tied to specific weapons).... and Weapon Focus (Longsword). Do you cry because the character isn't using all the edged things that this class is capable of? See why I don't find this argument convincing?
And Tempest, I'd have to oppose you on a couple grounds. Having an undead mount is definitely going to violate the paladin code. Likewise, taking control of undead for purposes other then putting them to rest is going to violate the paladin code. I'll agree that bone armor specifically does not...but the effects of the bone armor, effectively giving you undead immunities without being undead, are a stupendous class benefit even without everything else the class hands out.
A refresher: Here's the paladin's code in Third Edition.
Code of Conduct:A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Note that the code says nothing about undead in this edition - nothing about forcing them to put undead to rest or having an undead mount. If I wanted, I could even play a necropolitan paladin (or a paladin of any sort of undead that could exist as lawful good).
I believe the AD&D rules were more explicit on this, but they also prevented paladins from owning more than ten magic items, if I recall correctly.
(Incidentally, if you wanted virtually every immunity that class grants, you could get almost all of them at level 1 by playing a warforged. (In fact, since most of the immunities come with Exoskeleton of Undeath, which prevents you from removing your armor, they're more similar than you'd think.) There are a couple of advantages to the bone knight immunities, most obviously the immunity to stunning, but the rest? BIJNTU.)
I'm fully aware of Karnath's take on things. But Karnath is a LE=biased nation. What it considers 'good for the nation' is not Good in the slightest, as the adherents of the Silver Flame are more then happy to point out. Karnath's willingness to bend morals has no effect on the paladin's code. Good is something far greater then one nation.
The paladin code isn't synonymous with Good or even lower-case good - in fact, according to the Book of Exalted Deeds, Sir Masochist Von Genocide is a paladin in Greyhawk.
Personally, if I were designing Eberron, I'd've banned the paladin, or given it a substantial rewrite to reflect the changes to the cleric. (For example, note how they handled the bard in Eberron, where you can trade out the normally fixed bardic music effects? Or how they managed to make ranger organizations distinct? Perhaps something like that mechanically. As for fluff, it wouldn't be too hard to adjust it for a world where the gods might not even exist - perhaps all paladins are descendants of champions of some sort, who train in the class as a way of taking up that legacy. Think the Belmont clan here.) The Paladin, as it appears in the core books, is too specific to one particular ideal, and that doesn't jive well with a world of grey morality. WotC were already pretty close to this anyway - clerics are considered the martial champions of the churches in Eberron, which is traditionally the paladin's role - but I can see why they couldn't (the paladin is too entrenched in player mentality to justify slashing it).
Making it an undead controlling/leading class is something that should belong to fighter/clerics and FALLEN paladins.
You still didn't answer my question: Is a Lawful Good Paladin 2 / Fighter 1 "fallen"?
The term "fallen", as near as I can tell, never shows up in any mechanical sense in all of 3e with the singular exception of the paladins-turning-into-blackguards sidebar, where it isn't defined. (Note that as a consequence of that sidebar, a paladin can go straight from Lawful Good into being a 10th-level Blackguard in one fell swoop via trading in levels - that's pretty clearly a fall, but it doesn't need to happen before becoming a blackguard.) The term used throughout all of the splatbooks is "ex-paladin", but even there it's never specified if it refers to a paladin who has lost his class features, or a paladin who is simply unable to advance as a paladin (say, by multiclassing with a class that lacks a paladin exception). And even then, there's a pretty solid moral distinction between paladins who have lost their class features and are seeking to redeem themselves, and those who have lost their features because they have given up on the way of the paladin.
A refresher: Here's the paladin's code in Third Edition.
Code of Conduct:A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.Note that the code says nothing about undead in this edition - nothing about forcing them to put undead to rest or having an undead mount. If I wanted, I could even play a necropolitan paladin (or a paladin of any sort of undead that could exist as lawful good).
I believe the AD&D rules were more explicit on this, but they also prevented paladins from owning more than ten magic items, if I recall correctly.
Actually, in the novel Pool of Radiance one of the main characters is an undead Paladin of Tyr, who is then restored to life after the Hammer of Tyr is recovered.
The term "fallen", as near as I can tell, never shows up in any mechanical sense in all of 3e with the singular exception of the paladins-turning-into-blackguards sidebar, where it isn't defined.
Complete Adventurer, page 69. Also ill-defined, but it refers to Shadowbane Inquisitors who fall.
(Note that as a consequence of that sidebar, a paladin can go straight from Lawful Good into being a 10th-level Blackguard in one fell swoop via trading in levels - that's pretty clearly a fall, but it doesn't need to happen before becoming a blackguard.)
Technically speaking, a paladin couldn't go straight from being Lawful Good to being a 10th-level blackguard by trading levels, since she'd need to already be evil-aligned upon levelling in order to qualify for the prestige class and gain access to the trading option.
Well, maybe she could if she already had levels in blackguard before becoming LG (disqualifying her from being a blackguard) and then changed directly back to an evil alignment (causing her to become a blackguard again and be immediately able to make the trade) once she had some paladin levels to trade in, but that's kind of a corner case.