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Cleric Build: If you WERE FORCED to have your first level be a fighter type

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
lokilokss
May 29, 2008 10:52:05 The general question is this:

If you were going to make a cleric and you had to have your VERY FIRST level for a campaign be a fighter type class, which would it be and why?

General comments are cool, but specifically these are some stats and a scenario:

Str: 14
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 18
Cha: 20

Starting level 6, campaign set to end by level 12.

Core books + Completes + Unearthed Arcana Variants are good to go.

I'm trying to use DMM Quicken in the build as well.

What are your thoughts?

LokiLoks
#2
hogarth
May 29, 2008 10:56:17 Fighter 1/Cleric 4/Prestige Paladin X?
#3
aftercrescent
May 29, 2008 10:56:51 My initial thought was Crusader, but that's not in your allowed sources...

I'd consider Paladin or Hexblade... Possibly Fighter... Possibly ranger. Maybe even monk

What kind of cleric?

PS: Check the sig
#4
Dictum_Mortuum
May 29, 2008 10:57:09 crusader.
#5
cjerowe
May 29, 2008 11:06:42 If you're good, probably have to say paladin. A major concern here is the skill points at first level matching what you need as a cleric. Paladins get concentration, heal, knowledge religion, etc...

If you're going this route, I might suggest taking level two as well because of that Charisma you're carrying around (+5 to all saves would be nice). Lay on hands at that level would be meh...

Make you're cleric have the war and strength domains and you're set as a frontline combatant type. Later add on some DMM Persistant Divine power / Righteous Might and start spreading the word with extreme prejudice!
#6
carnivore
May 29, 2008 11:15:44 for Non-ToB build...... always Ranger.... 2 good saves, Great Skills, Alternate class feature: Trapfinding is great... also if playing Wood Elf.. Elven Sub lvl 1 is great((8 Skill points+ Int bonus)x4) @ 1st lvl)

with ToB... Crusader or Warblade

another approach might be:

Duskblade 2/ Cleric 8/ Mystic Theurge 10

with Precocious Apprentice

:D
#7
wizu
May 29, 2008 11:39:35 Definetly barbarian with whirling frenzy rage substitution, lion totem barbarian substitution for pounce and extra rage féat.

And I wouldnt regret it one bit.
#8
lokilokss
May 29, 2008 11:44:20 So far we have votes for the following:

2 for Paladin - good skill synergy
1 for Hexblade - ? with a 10 int?
1 for Duskblade - ? again with a 10 int?
2 for Fighter - I'm assuming the bonus feat is the kicker?
1 for Ranger - for saves, skills, & alt class feature.
1 for Barbarian - for whirling frenzy rage, lion totem barbarian, pounce & extra rage féat.

Questions asked are:

What type of cleric? Definitely melee Combat, no Archers, Possibly a tank. Quicken DMM is a must. I was hoping to bust a beat down with Divine Might.

What alignment? I can be Neutral, CN, or LG with a helm of Opposite Alignment (-4000gp)

Someone earlier suggested Ur-Cleric, but I don't see how to make that happen anytime soon.

LokiLoks
#9
aftercrescent
May 29, 2008 11:48:08 Definitely Fighter 1 for the feat or Paladin 2 for the Cha synergy. I'd stick with Fighter 1, personally.

Neutral Alignment FTW!
#10
davethemagicweasel
May 29, 2008 12:02:17 Lion Totem Barbarian.

Even if you don't use your rage, pounce is worth -1 CL (especially if you HAVE to lose one anyway). And you can quite feasibly buff for a round or two and then rage - it's not ideal, but if nowt else it's summat for when you run out of spell slots.
#11
lokilokss
May 29, 2008 12:05:35 So far we have votes for the following:

2 for Paladin - good skill synergy
1 for Hexblade - ? with a 10 int?
1 for Duskblade - ? again with a 10 int?
2 for Fighter - I'm assuming the bonus feat is the kicker?
1 for Ranger - for saves, skills, & alt class feature.
2 for Barbarian - for whirling frenzy rage, lion totem barbarian, pounce & extra rage feat.

Re: Barbarian pounce/rage - That's going to screw with the armour options, and given the dex of 12 is it a good idea?

Re: Duskblade/Hexblade - I'm still curious about what the benefit is with these.

LokiLoks
#12
davethemagicweasel
May 29, 2008 12:21:02
So far we have votes for the following:

2 for Paladin - good skill synergy
1 for Hexblade - ? with a 10 int?
1 for Duskblade - ? again with a 10 int?
2 for Fighter - I'm assuming the bonus feat is the kicker?
1 for Ranger - for saves, skills, & alt class feature.
2 for Barbarian - for whirling frenzy rage, lion totem barbarian, pounce & extra rage feat.

Re: Barbarian pounce/rage - That's going to screw with the armour options, and given the dex of 12 is it a good idea?

Re: Duskblade/Hexblade - I'm still curious about what the benefit is with these.

LokiLoks

Even with a crappy Dex Greater Luminous Armour would still be my choice once you've got the CL to make it last all day (and a Magic Vestment on your clothes).

But there's nothing about Lion Totem requiring light armour. Fast Movement does, but you're replacing that anyway.
#13
MenhirRocksolid
May 29, 2008 12:42:02 # Barbarian

Great HP, decent skills, pounce, and its more fun to play anyhow then a pally.
#14
lokilokss
May 29, 2008 13:16:28 The barbarian pounce/rage/extra rage looks impressive

Is there any way to get to have Quicken DMM, Extra Rage, and Divine Might with it at 6th without the bonus human feat?

This might be so sick my gm might freak about it so I'd like to look into one more option.

Thanks for the input guys!

LokiLoks
#15
davethemagicweasel
May 29, 2008 13:39:24 #1 Flaws

#2 Barbarian 1 / Cleric 3 / Ordained Champion 2 - Use the Ordained Champion ability to swap feats out to get more (might not work, I think only Power Attack is a Fighter feat - but a human could do it with Human: Quicken Spell, 1: Extra Rage, 3: DMM (Quicken), OC: Power Attack, 6: Divine Might).

However, if you're using turns for DMM Quicken, then I probably wouldn't bother with Divine Might personally. You'll just spread yourself too thin.
#16
lokilokss
May 29, 2008 14:51:21 Ok, I'm writing up a Barbarian 1 Cleric 5 option. I'm not too into Heironeous or Hextor so I'm going to avoid the Ordained Champion.

Assuming that the barbarian is denied, which of the other options recommended work the best?

LokiLoks
#17
cru
May 29, 2008 15:21:41 maybe human paragon? is that a fighter class? for the later +2 stat increase and bonus feat and skills?
#18
aftercrescent
May 29, 2008 17:23:16 Actually cru has a decent idea

Human Paragon 1/Cleric 3/Paragon 2-3 is a good start.
#19
lokilokss
May 29, 2008 18:38:44 I asked and human paragon is not considered a fighter type by the gm.

Fighter type possibilities are:

Barbarian
Barbarian Totem
Duskblade
Fighter
Hexblade
Knight
Paladin of Freedom
Ranger
Samurai
Swashbuckler, and
Thug

I'm trying to figure out how duskblade or hexblade could be used. I'm thinking I may just be best off with Paladin of Freedom 2 and Cleric 4.

LokiLoks
#20
aftercrescent
May 29, 2008 20:43:00 Maybe. If the campaign is only going to 12, I wouldn't lose more than 1 CL, though. Fighter 1 is likely your best option.
#21
jaronk
May 29, 2008 20:56:54 Lion Totem/Whirling Frenzy Barbarian all the way. Accept no substitutes!

JaronK
#22
ShakaUVM
May 29, 2008 21:54:15 In a high magic campaign, monk clerics are actually pretty broken.

It's funny watching a touch attack of 30 miss.
#23
manic_man
May 29, 2008 22:12:42 Lion Totem Barbarian with Planning Domain, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic, Power attack, Leap attack
#24
bejik
May 30, 2008 16:17:16 I would suggest crusader. Take one level of crusader and that can qualify you for ruby knight vindicator which is a good PrC that won't stop you from getting 9ths. Even if the PrC isn't for you a dip in crusader can be really nice because it means some healing maneuvers and stances as well as damage. That is my two cents at least.
#25
lokilokss
May 30, 2008 17:09:01 Crusader isn't in the core books or the completes.

I've found that if for some reason I decided to go into ur-cleric Hexblade would work with Cloistered Cleric to get me to it at 6th level. I'd be able to cast 1st level spells! (it appears that ur-cleric is lame)

If I have to go some route other than Barbarian it appears that Skill Synergy works with the paladin or Ranger but the extra feat from Fighter is just too good IMO.

The 2 levels of paladin for the cha to saves is nice, but I'd be down to 2nd level spells until I gain a level, kinda hard to imagine playing with the big boys that way.

If the GM disallows the totem thing I'm going Fighter unless someone can give me a good reason not to.

LokiLoks
#26
bejik
May 30, 2008 20:38:15 I'm sorry I totally missed that, I read the original post a few days ago and posted today sorry. Yeah ignore that then. Probably Fighter is actually one of your better bets, though Paladin isn't bad either, though a 2 level dip into pally is good because of the Cha to saves that will synch with getting lots of turn attempts for the fun that is DMM. If you can get ToB on your list I would really consider it. That's my 2 cents in you currency, the previous was Canadian or something. (unless you are Canadian then it's US) :P
#27
Chaos_Redefined
May 31, 2008 18:20:38 4 possible situations:
1) If it was my choice to have the first level as a fighter-type class, I'd check whatever I'm eating for drugs.

2) If it was my DM forcing me to have the first level as a fighter-type class, I'd tell him that I'd prefer to have my character as a full cleric, and fighter-type classes do not fit the character mechanically or flavor-wise. If he persists, I'd walk.

3) If it's another player forcing me to take the first level as a fighter-type class, I'd tell him to leave me alone and let me make my own character. If he persists, I'd tell him that I will do it if I get to make his character as well.

4) If it's someone not involved in the game, then I will tell them to not involve themselves with my character, unless I ask for advice, and if I ask for advice, it is up to me to take it. If the reasons I give for why I shouldn't take it are questionable, then you can tell me the problems with them. But you do not have any right to force me to make a character a particular way.

Did I miss anything?

Oh... one other thing. Clerics can be considered fighter types, and I would be quite happy to get the cleric to play a tank role before the wizard or the rogue would be considered.
#28
blargney_the_second
May 31, 2008 19:46:53 You could actually make yourself a decent archer in fullplate with Zen Archery. Fighter would be a good way to set yourself up for PBS & Precise Shot.
-blarg

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 lokilokss May 29, 2008 10:52:05	The general question is this: If you were going to make a cleric and you had to have your VERY FIRST level for a campaign be a fighter type class, which would it be and why? General comments are cool, but specifically these are some stats and a scenario: Str: 14 Dex: 12 Con: 14 Int: 10 Wis: 18 Cha: 20 Starting level 6, campaign set to end by level 12. Core books + Completes + Unearthed Arcana Variants are good to go. I'm trying to use DMM Quicken in the build as well. What are your thoughts? LokiLoks
#2 hogarth May 29, 2008 10:56:17	Fighter 1/Cleric 4/Prestige Paladin X?
#3 aftercrescent May 29, 2008 10:56:51	My initial thought was Crusader, but that's not in your allowed sources... I'd consider Paladin or Hexblade... Possibly Fighter... Possibly ranger. Maybe even monk What kind of cleric? PS: Check the sig
#4 Dictum_Mortuum May 29, 2008 10:57:09	crusader.
#5 cjerowe May 29, 2008 11:06:42	If you're good, probably have to say paladin. A major concern here is the skill points at first level matching what you need as a cleric. Paladins get concentration, heal, knowledge religion, etc... If you're going this route, I might suggest taking level two as well because of that Charisma you're carrying around (+5 to all saves would be nice). Lay on hands at that level would be meh... Make you're cleric have the war and strength domains and you're set as a frontline combatant type. Later add on some DMM Persistant Divine power / Righteous Might and start spreading the word with extreme prejudice!
#6 carnivore May 29, 2008 11:15:44	for Non-ToB build...... always Ranger.... 2 good saves, Great Skills, Alternate class feature: Trapfinding is great... also if playing Wood Elf.. Elven Sub lvl 1 is great((8 Skill points+ Int bonus)x4) @ 1st lvl) with ToB... Crusader or Warblade another approach might be: Duskblade 2/ Cleric 8/ Mystic Theurge 10 with Precocious Apprentice :D
#7 wizu May 29, 2008 11:39:35	Definetly barbarian with whirling frenzy rage substitution, lion totem barbarian substitution for pounce and extra rage féat. And I wouldnt regret it one bit.
#8 lokilokss May 29, 2008 11:44:20	So far we have votes for the following: 2 for Paladin - good skill synergy 1 for Hexblade - ? with a 10 int? 1 for Duskblade - ? again with a 10 int? 2 for Fighter - I'm assuming the bonus feat is the kicker? 1 for Ranger - for saves, skills, & alt class feature. 1 for Barbarian - for whirling frenzy rage, lion totem barbarian, pounce & extra rage féat. Questions asked are: What type of cleric? Definitely melee Combat, no Archers, Possibly a tank. Quicken DMM is a must. I was hoping to bust a beat down with Divine Might. What alignment? I can be Neutral, CN, or LG with a helm of Opposite Alignment (-4000gp) Someone earlier suggested Ur-Cleric, but I don't see how to make that happen anytime soon. LokiLoks
#9 aftercrescent May 29, 2008 11:48:08	Definitely Fighter 1 for the feat or Paladin 2 for the Cha synergy. I'd stick with Fighter 1, personally. Neutral Alignment FTW!
#10 davethemagicweasel May 29, 2008 12:02:17	Lion Totem Barbarian. Even if you don't use your rage, pounce is worth -1 CL (especially if you HAVE to lose one anyway). And you can quite feasibly buff for a round or two and then rage - it's not ideal, but if nowt else it's summat for when you run out of spell slots.
#11 lokilokss May 29, 2008 12:05:35	So far we have votes for the following: 2 for Paladin - good skill synergy 1 for Hexblade - ? with a 10 int? 1 for Duskblade - ? again with a 10 int? 2 for Fighter - I'm assuming the bonus feat is the kicker? 1 for Ranger - for saves, skills, & alt class feature. 2 for Barbarian - for whirling frenzy rage, lion totem barbarian, pounce & extra rage feat. Re: Barbarian pounce/rage - That's going to screw with the armour options, and given the dex of 12 is it a good idea? Re: Duskblade/Hexblade - I'm still curious about what the benefit is with these. LokiLoks
#12 davethemagicweasel May 29, 2008 12:21:02	So far we have votes for the following: 2 for Paladin - good skill synergy 1 for Hexblade - ? with a 10 int? 1 for Duskblade - ? again with a 10 int? 2 for Fighter - I'm assuming the bonus feat is the kicker? 1 for Ranger - for saves, skills, & alt class feature. 2 for Barbarian - for whirling frenzy rage, lion totem barbarian, pounce & extra rage feat. Re: Barbarian pounce/rage - That's going to screw with the armour options, and given the dex of 12 is it a good idea? Re: Duskblade/Hexblade - I'm still curious about what the benefit is with these. LokiLoks Even with a crappy Dex Greater Luminous Armour would still be my choice once you've got the CL to make it last all day (and a Magic Vestment on your clothes). But there's nothing about Lion Totem requiring light armour. Fast Movement does, but you're replacing that anyway.
#13 MenhirRocksolid May 29, 2008 12:42:02	# Barbarian Great HP, decent skills, pounce, and its more fun to play anyhow then a pally.
#14 lokilokss May 29, 2008 13:16:28	The barbarian pounce/rage/extra rage looks impressive Is there any way to get to have Quicken DMM, Extra Rage, and Divine Might with it at 6th without the bonus human feat? This might be so sick my gm might freak about it so I'd like to look into one more option. Thanks for the input guys! LokiLoks
#15 davethemagicweasel May 29, 2008 13:39:24	#1 Flaws #2 Barbarian 1 / Cleric 3 / Ordained Champion 2 - Use the Ordained Champion ability to swap feats out to get more (might not work, I think only Power Attack is a Fighter feat - but a human could do it with Human: Quicken Spell, 1: Extra Rage, 3: DMM (Quicken), OC: Power Attack, 6: Divine Might). However, if you're using turns for DMM Quicken, then I probably wouldn't bother with Divine Might personally. You'll just spread yourself too thin.
#16 lokilokss May 29, 2008 14:51:21	Ok, I'm writing up a Barbarian 1 Cleric 5 option. I'm not too into Heironeous or Hextor so I'm going to avoid the Ordained Champion. Assuming that the barbarian is denied, which of the other options recommended work the best? LokiLoks
#17 cru May 29, 2008 15:21:41	maybe human paragon? is that a fighter class? for the later +2 stat increase and bonus feat and skills?
#18 aftercrescent May 29, 2008 17:23:16	Actually cru has a decent idea Human Paragon 1/Cleric 3/Paragon 2-3 is a good start.
#19 lokilokss May 29, 2008 18:38:44	I asked and human paragon is not considered a fighter type by the gm. Fighter type possibilities are: Barbarian Barbarian Totem Duskblade Fighter Hexblade Knight Paladin of Freedom Ranger Samurai Swashbuckler, and Thug I'm trying to figure out how duskblade or hexblade could be used. I'm thinking I may just be best off with Paladin of Freedom 2 and Cleric 4. LokiLoks
#20 aftercrescent May 29, 2008 20:43:00	Maybe. If the campaign is only going to 12, I wouldn't lose more than 1 CL, though. Fighter 1 is likely your best option.
#21 jaronk May 29, 2008 20:56:54	Lion Totem/Whirling Frenzy Barbarian all the way. Accept no substitutes! JaronK
#22 ShakaUVM May 29, 2008 21:54:15	In a high magic campaign, monk clerics are actually pretty broken. It's funny watching a touch attack of 30 miss.
#23 manic_man May 29, 2008 22:12:42	Lion Totem Barbarian with Planning Domain, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic, Power attack, Leap attack
#24 bejik May 30, 2008 16:17:16	I would suggest crusader. Take one level of crusader and that can qualify you for ruby knight vindicator which is a good PrC that won't stop you from getting 9ths. Even if the PrC isn't for you a dip in crusader can be really nice because it means some healing maneuvers and stances as well as damage. That is my two cents at least.
#25 lokilokss May 30, 2008 17:09:01	Crusader isn't in the core books or the completes. I've found that if for some reason I decided to go into ur-cleric Hexblade would work with Cloistered Cleric to get me to it at 6th level. I'd be able to cast 1st level spells! (it appears that ur-cleric is lame) If I have to go some route other than Barbarian it appears that Skill Synergy works with the paladin or Ranger but the extra feat from Fighter is just too good IMO. The 2 levels of paladin for the cha to saves is nice, but I'd be down to 2nd level spells until I gain a level, kinda hard to imagine playing with the big boys that way. If the GM disallows the totem thing I'm going Fighter unless someone can give me a good reason not to. LokiLoks
#26 bejik May 30, 2008 20:38:15	I'm sorry I totally missed that, I read the original post a few days ago and posted today sorry. Yeah ignore that then. Probably Fighter is actually one of your better bets, though Paladin isn't bad either, though a 2 level dip into pally is good because of the Cha to saves that will synch with getting lots of turn attempts for the fun that is DMM. If you can get ToB on your list I would really consider it. That's my 2 cents in you currency, the previous was Canadian or something. (unless you are Canadian then it's US) :P
#27 Chaos_Redefined May 31, 2008 18:20:38	4 possible situations: 1) If it was my choice to have the first level as a fighter-type class, I'd check whatever I'm eating for drugs. 2) If it was my DM forcing me to have the first level as a fighter-type class, I'd tell him that I'd prefer to have my character as a full cleric, and fighter-type classes do not fit the character mechanically or flavor-wise. If he persists, I'd walk. 3) If it's another player forcing me to take the first level as a fighter-type class, I'd tell him to leave me alone and let me make my own character. If he persists, I'd tell him that I will do it if I get to make his character as well. 4) If it's someone not involved in the game, then I will tell them to not involve themselves with my character, unless I ask for advice, and if I ask for advice, it is up to me to take it. If the reasons I give for why I shouldn't take it are questionable, then you can tell me the problems with them. But you do not have any right to force me to make a character a particular way. Did I miss anything? Oh... one other thing. Clerics can be considered fighter types, and I would be quite happy to get the cleric to play a tank role before the wizard or the rogue would be considered.
#28 blargney_the_second May 31, 2008 19:46:53	You could actually make yourself a decent archer in fullplate with Zen Archery. Fighter would be a good way to set yourself up for PBS & Precise Shot. -blarg