1) That i am not first one to come up with this idea
2) this beat assumption of many people that Druid is most powerful class in game.
As most optimized clerics this ones Invincibility is based on DMM Persist, but it can even work without it with just MM Extend and MM Persist. It Does require 2 additional feats - Endurance and Diehard
Most people like persisting Divine Power or similar spells - well how about persisting something that makes DMM really broken ?
How about spell that gives you unlimited HP and you don't die when you go below -9 HP ?
Most of you guessed right on the spot - Delay Death - spell which when combined with DMM brings out full cheesy power of Clerics - just to have some more fun - Cleric with Animal and Time domain gain Shapechange and Time Stop so it can toy with his enemies - you can be Atomic Ant or any of your unstoppable super heroes from childhood with just this spell and standard action!
Only problem that can occur with this is insufficient number of healing spells but even this problem is overcame with wands of cure.
Dial and get your own cheesy Cleric right now!
555-Overpowered-Clerics
Hmmm.
I really would like to know the answer to this one.
Would spells that have touch range, such as spell resistance, be considered to have a fixed range, and therefore be usable with the Persistent Spell feat? No. Range touch is not “fixed” for purposes of the Persistent Spell feat. The spell must affect the caster’s person (personal range) or have some effect that radiates from the caster’s person (a fixed range, expressed in feet).
That's from the Official D&D FAQ.
It has to literally say 'Range: Personal' or have a listed distance as a range, without any kind of modifier. For example, Range: 30ft is applicable. Range: 30ft + 5 ft/level is not. Touch is not applicable as that is neither 'Personal' nor a listed numeric distance.
Any way we could make this work?? Is there any way to change the range of a spell?? Or a way to increase the effectiveness of the persistent spell feat??
I'm intrigued to see if this is really possible.
See the twice betrayer of Mystra(?)
It has to literally say 'Range: Personal' or have a listed distance as a range, without any kind of modifier. For example, Range: 30ft is applicable. Range: 30ft + 5 ft/level is not. Touch is not applicable as that is neither 'Personal' nor a listed numeric distance.
That's from the Official D&D FAQ.
Well if you read it like that, that makes it only works on personal, as i know of very few to none spells that got fixed range ... every spell beside personal doesn't got fixed range in that manner - at least that i can remember now ...
Well if you read it like that, that makes it only works on personal, as i know of very few to none spells that got fixed range ... every spell beside personal doesn't got fixed range in that manner - at least that i can remember now ...
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectMagic.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/globeOfInvulnerabilityLesser.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prismaticSphere.htm
http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/spells.php?ID=4795
I will stop now for I think you get my point.
Range
A spell’s range indicates how far from you it can reach, as defined in the Range entry of the spell description. A spell’s range is the maximum distance from you that the spell’s effect can occur, as well as the maximum distance at which you can designate the spell’s point of origin. If any portion of the spell’s area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted. Standard ranges include the following.
Personal
The spell affects only you.
Touch
You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch as many willing targets as you can reach as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell.
Close
The spell reaches as far as 25 feet away from you. The maximum range increases by 5 feet for every two full caster levels.
Medium
The spell reaches as far as 100 feet + 10 feet per caster level.
Long
The spell reaches as far as 400 feet + 40 feet per caster level.
Unlimited
The spell reaches anywhere on the same plane of existence.
Range Expressed in Feet
Some spells have no standard range category, just a range expressed in feet.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm
Note the Ranged Expressed in Feat, Personal, and Touch are separate categories.
Even if you could persist it, you are a dispel check away from dying. And diehard lets you act between -1 and -9, if someone drops you to -10 or less you cannot act, thus you are going to die eventually when the effects wears off.
Moreover spells that kill you outright work. They don't check your hp.
Anyway, it's a nice little trick, but by no means makes you invincible.
Anyway, it's a nice little trick, but by no means makes you invincible.
+1. This
Everyone has already pointed out the reasons this doesn't work. You can't normally persist Delay Death. You can use Reach Spell (CD) or Ocular Spell (LoM) to give it a fixed range and persist it, but then it can be dispelled. Even if you give it a sickening dispel DC, you still can't act at -10 or below with Diehard.
If you're really looking for invulnerability, check out the the Cheater of Mystra by FunnySlaughter. My only advice is adjusting that build is to take Extraordinary Spell Aim (CAdv) so everything you use can work in AMF. Also fling in some Bone Knight for crit and massive damage immunity. (Yes, I realize that crosses settings).
So all in all, an okay trick, nothing new, and nothing game breaking, really.
You can act below -10 with Beastland ferocity though.
which is a bard/druid spell :P
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectMagic.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/globeOfInvulnerabilityLesser.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prismaticSphere.htm
http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/spells.php?ID=4795
I will stop now for I think you get my point.
Prismatic Sphere
Level: Protection 9, Sor/Wiz 9, Sun 9
Antimagic Field
Level: Clr 8, Magic 6, Protection 6, Sor/Wiz 6
Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Only good point you made is Antimagic Field, as i believe no one would want to persist DetectMagic - its totally useless to persist it
which is a bard/druid spell :P
Greater anyspell/Limited Wish/Miracle?
IIRC that FAQ is 3.0, but i it still works. I don't like people persisting touch spells.
Even if you could persist it, you are a dispel check away from dying. And diehard lets you act between -1 and -9, if someone drops you to -10 or less you cannot act, thus you are going to die eventually when the effects wears off.
Moreover spells that kill you outright work. They don't check your hp.
Anyway, it's a nice little trick, but by no means makes you invincible.
Nope ... it says that i don't need to roll d100 between -1 to -9 and that i can act like i am disabled at negative hit points, it doesn't say anything about it being from -1 to -9
You can act below -10 with Beastland ferocity though.
No you can't ... you get +4 to Str while at -1 to -9 but you die normally at -10.
Diehard + Delay Death is only way you can overcome dying at -10 - at least that i know of for now.
As for save or die effects - its easy - Death Ward, lvl 4 spell, and if you are really into it, you can persist it as well - 3 + 4 (cha) + 4 from extra turning + night stick.
Also by the time you get to DMM Persist Delay Death, you got higher lvl buffs that are going to be dispelled first...
Dunno, it would work out perfectly, only problem is that i overlooked Persistent Spell
Nope ... it says that i don't need to roll d100 between -1 to -9 and that i can act like i am disabled at negative hit points, it doesn't say anything about it being from -1 to -9
The same feat says that you die if you reach -10 hp, not because of hp loss, but as an effect without a save.
RAW is not a good thing.
As for save or die effects - its easy - Death Ward, lvl 4 spell, and if you are really into it, you can persist it as well - 3 + 4 (cha) + 4 from extra turning + night stick.
dispel magic, disjunction, disintegrate is not a death effect, and the list goes on :P
Prismatic Sphere
Level: Protection 9, Sor/Wiz 9, Sun 9
Antimagic Field
Level: Clr 8, Magic 6, Protection 6, Sor/Wiz 6
Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Only good point you made is Antimagic Field, as i believe no one would want to persist DetectMagic - its totally useless to persist it
I was listing spells that can be persisted, for they have a fixed range. And there are many ways to persist arcane spells. Some of which involve a cleric instead of an arcane spellcaster.
That, or cast lesser vigor on yourself and have one of your friends dunk your head in water for a single round. Instantly recover from -1,000,000 hp in time for the DM to make proverbial rocks fall.
Just don't get hit by a disintegrate while you are negative, or you'll be dusted, no save, since you'll take damage from it, and your hp will be below 0. Unless you have Mettle!
The same feat says that you die if you reach -10 hp, not because of hp loss, but as an effect without a save.
RAW is not a good thing.
Yup what you say its true for Diehard alone ... but read DieHard and than read Delay Death.
Diehard says that when you reach -10 hp you immediately die, but Delay Death removes that limit ...
And i am not really a RAW type of player i go by my logic, sometimes i agree with RAW sometimes i don't but combining these 2 makes sense to me.
It is overpowering effect that breaks the game, but on other hand you need to dedicate 6 out of 8(9 if you are human) feats to get this and even than you are only invincible against non-spellcasters and by the time you get to use this nifty little trick there will be more and more spell casters ...
Yup what you say its true for Diehard alone ... but read DieHard and than read Delay Death.
Diehard says that when you reach -10 hp you immediately die, but Delay Death removes that limit ...
And i am not really a RAW type of player i go by my logic, sometimes i agree with RAW sometimes i don't but combining these 2 makes sense to me.
It is overpowering effect that breaks the game, but on other hand you need to dedicate 6 out of 8(9 if you are human) feats to get this and even than you are only invincible against non-spellcasters and by the time you get to use this nifty little trick there will be more and more spell casters ...
It doesn't kill you due to hit point damage :P Although that's what it's meant to do. It's like saying "if you are sickened, you instead die", "if you wear a red scarf, you die", etc :P
And it's not that broken. As it doesn't work :P. Well, except if you use ocular spell, but that's super-cheesy anyway :P
which is a bard/druid spell :P
Beastland ferocity.
We have a druid in the party....
I take the feat Reach Spell...
With the Extend Spell/Persistent Spell and Divine MetaMagic
Would this work??
Beastland Ferocity says between -1 and -9 you gain +4 str. At -10 die. With Delayed Death persisted from Reach Spell could you act normally past -10 HP??
Yup what you say its true for Diehard alone ... but read DieHard and than read Delay Death.
Diehard says that when you reach -10 hp you immediately die, but Delay Death removes that limit ...
And i am not really a RAW type of player i go by my logic, sometimes i agree with RAW sometimes i don't but combining these 2 makes sense to me.
I agree with this.
This has been done before: Soak, the whipping boy wizard
Delay Death removes the general rule that you die at -10. Die Hard the feat, makes you die at -10, not from damage, that's just what it does. If you had a houserule that you die at -Con score, and you took DieHard, you'd die at -10, even if your Con was a 26. Delay death keeps you from dying due to hp loss. Yay. DieHard makes you die at -10HP, boo. You have to read things carefully if you really want to argue RAW. *shrug*
Is there a way to function a (-)HP without Death a -10????
Is there a way to function a (-)HP without Death a -10????
Yes. In some way shape or form, acquire the Ferocity (Ex): of a boar/dire boar.
Yes. In some way shape or form, acquire the Ferocity (Ex): of a boar/dire boar.
Short of a wish/miracle or polymorph???
I can't think of any.
Short of a wish/miracle or polymorph???
I can't think of any.
Wildshaping is the only other way that comes to mind.
That's the point. it's not really a great trick. It's okay, at best. Lots of other cleric tricks that are actually SOOOOOOO much better.
Edit: If you are really, super eager to get this ability check out the Bone Knight in 5 Nations (an Eberron supplement). Combined with Ocular/Reach spell and DMM Persist you can pull this off.
Wildshaping is the only other way that comes to mind.
That's the point. it's not really a great trick. It's okay, at best. Lots of other cleric tricks that are actually SOOOOOOO much better.
Edit: If you are really, super eager to get this ability check out the Bone Knight in 5 Nations (an Eberron supplement). Combined with Ocular/Reach spell and DMM Persist you can pull this off.
Sorry no Eberron.
FR and Main(greyhawk)
Cleric/Sunmaster?
I'll just have to find another type of cheese.:D
Delay Death removes the general rule that you die at -10. Die Hard the feat, makes you die at -10, not from damage, that's just what it does. If you had a houserule that you die at -Con score, and you took DieHard, you'd die at -10, even if your Con was a 26. Delay death keeps you from dying due to hp loss. Yay. DieHard makes you die at -10HP, boo. You have to read things carefully if you really want to argue RAW. *shrug*
As i mentioned above, i am not RAW type of player, i go by my logic.
And while feat Diehard says that you die at -10, thats cause they never though that someone would use Diehard and Delay Death in combination, that doesn't mean on other hand that their effects do not stack.
Its plain and simply, without Delay Death or other spells like this, you die once you reach -10 (still not counting in house rules, being that house rule might say that all Humans look like purple rabbits with orange dots on them and that they shine in moonlight) thats why they mentioned it in Diehard, cause without that part of sentence you could go as far as -100000000 without bothering to heal and be stuck on standard or move action for the rest of campaign - but you would have infinite HP.
Delay Death on other hand removes -10 cap and with that at least by my logic it also removes -10 cap on Diehard feat being that thats one and the same -10 cap.
You brought this trick here, Smrtac. We're just telling you that the rules don't allow for what you are trying to accomplish. If your DM allows it or you are the DM and allow it, you are making it a houserule. The rules, as they exist in the books and errata (i.e. RAW), which is what we deal with here, state that your suggested combination does not work.
FR??!?! Cheater of Mystra? Invulnerability is but a small step away.
What is Cheater of Mystra??
Pardon my STUPIDNESS.
:D
The original is by FunnySlaughter here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=248239
The feat Initiate of Mystra in Player's Guide to Faerun allows your cleric spells to work in an AMF. Extraordinary Spell Aim from Complete Adventurer allows you to be unaffected by your AMF. Play a Human, Grab Widen Spell, Extraordinary Spell Aim, Initiate of Mystra, Extend, Persist, DMM Persist and either spend the rest as extra turning if your DM does not allow nightstick stacking or grab a bunch of those. You are a walking death machine. Your buffs/items are unaffected by your giant AMF that nullifies all magical gear of your enemies (spells too). Makes you a beast. That's my personal modification, though.
The original is by FunnySlaughter here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=248239
Cleric 1-5/Sunmaster 1-10/Cleric 6-10
I'd do the feat "Initiate of Mystra" but I'm an "Initiate of Amaunator."
Night sticks are good and if not I'll just Extra Turning the last feats.
Feats at the moment are:
Human: Servant of the Fallen (Amaunator) LEoF
1st: Extend Spell (PHB)(retrain at 7th SM to Improved Turning RHS +3turns)
2nd: Persistent Spell (CA)
3rd: Divine Metamagic (CD)(Already have 5 ranks of Religion, +2 turn from Reliquary Holy Symbol)
6th: Initiate of Amaunator (PoF)
9th:
12th:
15th:
18th:
Oh: as a plus, the unkillable character at negative hit points needs to save or die instantly when he gets within thirty feet. ;)
All of this sort of fails to address the point, though: I don't think anyone has ever claimed that a Druid is more powerful than a Cleric, particularly in a game with unlimited access to books. The Druid is a more versatile choice, particularly in a core-only game. General consensus, though, is that the cleric is more powerful at very high levels.
why get improved turning? You can retrain to extra turning and take +4 turns instead of +1.
True but I was actually looking at the +1 level to turn bonus.
Since I'll be a 5th level Cleric for 10 levels I thought the +1 level to turn would be handy at later levels. That and with the Sun Domain greater turn this could be benificial to the party.
I on the Nightsticks stack Policy. So I just need to locate a few and I'll be good.
Thanks for the thought though. If for some reason I can't use the nightsticks then extra turning will be the next prime choice.
True but I was actually looking at the +1 level to turn bonus.
Since I'll be a 5th level Cleric for 10 levels I thought the +1 level to turn would be handy at later levels. That and with the Sun Domain greater turn this could be benificial to the party.
I on the Nightsticks stack Policy. So I just need to locate a few and I'll be good.
Thanks for the thought though. If for some reason I can't use the nightsticks then extra turning will be the next prime choice.
Boosting your turning level is easy. Check the turning handbook.
Since I'll be a 5th level Cleric for 10 levels I thought the +1 level to turn would be handy at later levels. That and with the Sun Domain greater turn this could be benificial to the party.
Turning is only a good choice if you are maximizing turning. If you start losing turning levels, you are better off just forgoing them and using them for Divine feats.
Check the handy links for carnivore's guide to turning, if that's what you want. If so, you'll likely need to rebuild the character, if possible.
Oh: as a plus, the unkillable character at negative hit points needs to save or die instantly when he gets within thirty feet. ;)
Make that Greater consumptive field and anything with 9 hitpoints or less need to make a save or die...
Make that Greater consumptive field and anything with 9 hitpoints or less need to make a save or die...
Cause that'll make you a lot of friends...
:P
Cause that'll make you a lot of friends...
:P
a lot of swarm friends :P
Cause that'll make you a lot of friends...
:P
If you are walking around with Consumptive field, chances are you are not exactly looking for penpals anyway.
I'm wonnwy....so wonnwy!!!!
Huh??
Turning is only a good choice if you are maximizing turning. If you start losing turning levels, you are better off just forgoing them and using them for Divine feats.
Check the handy links for carnivore's guide to turning, if that's what you want. If so, you'll likely need to rebuild the character, if possible.
How can you rebuild Cleric 5/Sunmaster 10??
Only the feats...
How can you rebuild Cleric 5/Sunmaster 10??
Only the feats...
Are you asking what I would rebuild it into? Or how, mechanically, you do it?
Bust open your PHB2 and read about rebuilding quests. My point is simple - regardless of the overall effectiveness of your current build (Full cleric casting is always effective, imo) the turning of a 5th-6th level cleric is HORRIBLY INEFFECTIVE AND USELESS in a level ~15 game. It's actually fairly subpar in a level 6-7 game, considering undead in 3.5 have turn resistance something like 70% of the time. *shrug*
Huh??
Sorry, reference to the song Kim Jong Il sings in Team America:World Police with respect to the fact that having a Persistant Greater Consumptive Field running would make about as many friends as being part of an oppressive dictatorship striving to develop nuclear weapons. In the end, you'd end up with a lot of dead allies and enemies, and a whole pile of additional enemies.
Watch the movie...that part in particular is hillarious.
[/thread derailment]
Didn't the Twice Betrayer use something like this?
Yes, in addition to a lot of other immunity granting spells, though it was based on the premise that Ocular spell allows you to persist touch spells, which some believe is not legal (the debate still goes on, I think).
If that's the kind of thing you're going for, that's where you start.
Sorry, reference to the song Kim Jong Il sings in Team America:World Police with respect to the fact that having a Persistant Greater Consumptive Field running would make about as many friends as being part of an oppressive dictatorship striving to develop nuclear weapons. In the end, you'd end up with a lot of dead allies and enemies, and a whole pile of additional enemies.
Watch the movie...that part in particular is hillarious.
[/thread derailment]
That makes more sense now...:D
I have not watched that one but I'll look into it.
Thanks.
Are you asking what I would rebuild it into? Or how, mechanically, you do it?
Bust open your PHB2 and read about rebuilding quests. My point is simple - regardless of the overall effectiveness of your current build (Full cleric casting is always effective, imo) the turning of a 5th-6th level cleric is HORRIBLY INEFFECTIVE AND USELESS in a level ~15 game. It's actually fairly subpar in a level 6-7 game, considering undead in 3.5 have turn resistance something like 70% of the time. *shrug*
I know about the PHB 2 stuff. We haven't actually started the quest yet and I'll be Level 1. I'm not looking at turning undead on a regular basis so I bypass the Undead gunk for now.
:D
"I'll take Extra Turning for 4." Player
"Answer is Divine Metamagic Batteries" Alex Trebec
"What is Nightsticks?" Player
:D
I know about the PHB 2 stuff. We haven't actually started the quest yet and I'll be Level 1. I'm not looking at turning undead on a regular basis so I bypass the Undead gunk for now.
Ah, starting at level one? Are you looking for clerical advice? I suggest checking the handbook I've recently written. If not, well then I'm just flaunting myself :P But seriously, feel free to toss up a thread for advice if you'd like some help. Here or BG (BG will get a quicker response from me, I'll be honest)
"I'll take Extra Turning for 4." Player
"Answer is Divine Metamagic Batteries" Alex Trebec
"What is Nightsticks?" Player
Ah, starting at level one? Are you looking for clerical advice? I suggest checking the handbook I've recently written. If not, well then I'm just flaunting myself :P But seriously, feel free to toss up a thread for advice if you'd like some help. Here or BG (BG will get a quicker response from me, I'll be honest)
Sunmaster of Amaunator Forgotten Realms
Sunmaster of Amaunator d20 Op
I've got these 2 threads going right now. 1 in FR the other in d20 Char OP.
I'm great at the cleric thing but I'm burnt out on it. Every one in the party wants me to play the cleric so I said "Okay, but I'm not going to play the STANDARD cleric."
I know about the DMM persist and I've never had to do it but I think this will work great to make me front line fighter cleric. Then heal when the fighting's done.