Has someone done an extensive analysis of Cleric spells similar to that done and being done for the Wizard spell list? I would certainly find it useful as my perusal of their spell list left me scratching my head and the Cleric Handbook's meager section on spells didn't alleviate my concerns.
DMM is the best divine feat, but there are other divine feats that are pretty broken for melee clerics.
Healing in combat is a weak action choice. Healing outside of combat is essential to the survival of the party, and the cleric has the best tools to do that.
The cleric also has some very useful long-duration buffs such as mass conviction and mass resistance.
Also, the cleric has a very versatile spell list. He has spells that are good for specific cases, and although every class has them, the cleric and druid are the best to deal with those spells because they don't have to learn them or scribe them into a book.
Also, you're forgetting to take domain into consideration. It may appear that two domains won't make much of a difference, but they do. If the cleric takes the right domains, it could grant him access to some really powerful or really handy spells, or grant him a good bonus feat or good ability. In some cases (like Destiny domain) - it's both!
Also, clerics can fill any role the party needs. Sometimes they can fill two roles efficiently. Look at the CO Project that had clerics by themes - you can find a link in the Handy Links thread.
The fact that he also likely has the highest AC in any given group, and that he can blast and/or turn into a combat machine easily on par with.. well, any melee (or ranged for that matter) class available, and often beyond, is just icing on the cake.
The class is very strong even without DMM, and with it, it becomes godlike. Also, talking about clerics without DMM is a lot like talking about druids without NS. Rare. With that sort of flexibility and raw power, it is very hard to pick something over a well built cleric when assembling a party. Anything.
And let's not forget that aside from his (at first look) limited spell list, the cleric also gets a d8 hit die, two strong saves, a decent BAB progression, armor and shield proficiencies (without ever having to worry about spell failiure), as well as domain powers and related feats (which can be quite potent in their own right). PrCs just take the whole thing to a higher level, depending on what your focus is. Besides, while their list is limited, they automatically have access to all spells that are on it (and with various splatbooks, that number has risen substantially).
And bringing up things like DMM or prestige classes like RKV, Ordained Champion, or Knight of the Raven is a fallacy. Druids (since we're talkin' bout CoDzilla) can merely multiclass dip into a PrC that grants turning and there you have it. But clerics can't do the same thing when it comes to powerful and unique druid PrCs like Master of Many Forms or Planar Shepard. A druid can do ANYTHING a cleric can do and more, a cleric can't say the same.
In fact, if it wasn't for the unique "Initiate" feats that clerics of certain deities can get and the alternative class feature that allows them to forgo a domain in order to add any arcane necromancy/abjuration/divination spell to their spell list, they wouldn't even be worthy of being mentioned in the same league as wizards and druids.
Honestly, aside from Gate, I can't think of a cleric spell that really stands out. When you compare it to the pinnacle of druid spells, Shapechange, (since you can shapeshift into a planetar and get to cast cleric spells) it pales.
And bringing up things like DMM or prestige classes like RKV, Ordained Champion, or Knight of the Raven is a fallacy. Druids (since we're talkin' bout CoDzilla) can merely multiclass dip into a PrC that grants turning and there you have it. But clerics can't do the same thing when it comes to powerful and unique druid PrCs like Master of Many Forms or Planar Shepard. A druid can do ANYTHING a cleric can do and more, a cleric can't say the same.
In fact, if it wasn't for the unique "Initiate" feats that clerics of certain deities can get and the alternative class feature that allows them to forgo a domain in order to add any arcane necromancy/abjuration/divination spell to their spell list, they wouldn't even be worthy of being mentioned in the same league as wizards and druids.
Those are my feelings exactly. The druid spell list I would rate only slightly weaker than the Wizard spell list (the strongest collection of spells, IMO) and they get something akin to Polymorph at level 5. Despite the melee power of a fully buffed cleric, I think a well-chosen Wild Shape form can hold its own and you get all the utility that Wild Shape can afford you. Furthermore, almost all the good cleric utility and heal spells the Druid gets or has an equivalent for, so I fail to see the reason for all the praise of the cleric. Yes, they can overshadow a fighter at its own thing, but that is not a feat worthy of praise for a spellcaster.
Neither of the two proponents of the cleric addressed my main concern, which is the viability of the cleric as something other than a melee specialist, a very weak role all around. Yes, they can throw party buffs around, but in the first few combat rounds spent buffing, other spellcasters are ending fights. It just seems Czilla isn't really worthy of its title.
Clerics are amazingly powerful when played by someone who has access to good splats and knows the spell-list well. Given 24 hours they can probably get around any non-combat obstacle the party may face. They do that while keeping the party alive, removing all those Save-or-Sucks the Wizard types throw on the party, and doing the fighter's job better than the fighter. Remember, saying the cleric is better than the fighter isn't saying much. Saying the cleric makes a good Big Stupid Fighter is great. Someone has to draw attention and hits.
Clerics become more powerful with every splat the DM allows.
This is true for any class isn't it? Especially druids and wizards.
If you want to argue that clerics are overall weaker than druids, cool. I don't know that I agree with you, but that isn't important to me. Pointing out good PrC's isn't a fallacy at all. Those classes are pretty much made for the Cleric.
But they're not really made for a cleric. If they were they'd be much harder for other classes to get into. As just one example, compare how easy it is for a druid to get into the Knight of the Raven PrC (or Dweomerkeepr or RKV or Bone Knight, easily considered the best PrCs for a cleric) vs how easy it is for a cleric to get into the Planar Shepard PrC or MoMF PrC. The druid can EASILY become a KotR, but it's all but IMPOSSIBLE for a cleric to become a Planar Shepard. And don't even compare the spell lists. If a cleric doesn't choose a deity with the Animal or Skalykind domain, he doesn't get access to the most powerful spell in the game.
There's nothing a cleric can do that a druid can't do better (with the exception of turning undead. But turn undead sucks so badly, it's only use is to power DMM).
PS I hope I'm not coming off as confrontational. I just like discussions involving divine spellcasters.
But the thing of it is, without those two classes in the equation, there's not much left that can challenge the cleric... And since WoD would be too reminiscent of the White Wolf setting name, and DoW just sounds stupid, the term 'CoDzilla' will remain in use, whether you're fond of it or not.
Assuming that is not what you were aiming at, what is? Are you trying to tell us that clerics are underpowered? Or perhaps that druids are overpowered? Both quite hilarious if you ask me.
The cleric does have its uses. It was never meant to fill the role of a wizard, and therefore that comparison is entirely irrelevant.
There is always the sanctified spell list for good casters...
Miracle to emulate a spell?
But the cleric has a very easy way of gaining access to new spells, even if they for only once per day........domains? Anyspell line from the spell domain? You can make that extra domain spell go a long way if you throw DMM persist into the mix.
There is always the sanctified spell list for good casters...
Miracle to emulate a spell?
This. They can also buy Pearls of Power to get more domain spells, and make/use magic items with them (Staves, etc). Or take the option that lets them spontaneously cast domain spells.
Plus, clerics get Animate Dead at 5th level. By casting Desecrate first, they can animate a 20 HD meat shield that can thrash most equal level fighter-types. And that's just their cheap pet. It is hard to maintain undead that are on par with the things you fight as you level, but at the point when you get them, they are quite strong.
I think druids might be more powerful at most of the levels between 1 and 14 or so, but after that clerics can equal or beat them. And even for some of those levels (levels 5-7 for evil clerics, for example), clerics can arguably pull ahead.
Assuming that is not what you were aiming at, what is? Are you trying to tell us that clerics are underpowered? Or perhaps that druids are overpowered?
I can't speak for the OP but for me, it's definitely the fact that clerics are UNDERPOWERED when compared to wizards, psions, and druids.
Both quite hilarious if you ask me.
Why is it hilarious? With just one spell, Shapechange/Greater Metamorphosis, a druid/wizard/psion can cast ANY cleric spell. That right there should be a dead giveaway that something is very wrong. So not only does the druid (and wizard and psion) have the better spell list, it also has access to ALL cleric spells.
To make things worse, all of the clerics best PrC's can be easily gotten into with a druid. The same isn't the case for the cleric (just try getting access to MoMF and Planar Shepard).
I can't speak for the OP but for me, it's definitely the fact that clerics are UNDERPOWERED when compared to wizards, psions, and druids.
Heelarious.
Why is it hilarious? With just one spell, Shapechange/Greater Metamorphosis, a druid/wizard/psion can cast ANY cleric spell.
Not in any real D&D game you (or I) will ever play in. This is just a ridiculous argument.
To make things worse, all of the clerics best PrC's can be easily gotten into with a druid. The same isn't the case for the cleric (just try getting access to MoMF and Planar Shepard).
Not true. Alot of them require Turn/Rebuke. Druids can get that, but they have to dip into other PrCs first, some of which don't have easy entry reqs themselves.
But the cleric has a very easy way of gaining access to new spells, even if they for only once per day........domains? Anyspell line from the spell domain? You can make that extra domain spell go a long way if you throw DMM persist into the mix.
Be a lawful neutral/neutral good druid that worships Mystra and then take a one level dip in the Contemplative PrC to get the Spells domain.
There is always the sanctified spell list for good casters...
Neutral good druids have access to these as well no?
Miracle to emulate a spell?
Druid ---> Shapechange into Planetar ----> 9th level cleric spells at caster level 17.
Plus, clerics get Animate Dead at 5th level. By casting Desecrate first, they can animate a 20 HD meat shield that can thrash most equal level fighter-types. And that's just their cheap pet. It is hard to maintain undead that are on par with the things you fight as you level, but at the point when you get them, they are quite strong.
And for the price of one feat, druids get the insanely powerful "greenbound summoning". I think it's available at level 1.
Heelarious.
But true
Not in any real D&D game you (or I) will ever play in. This is just a ridiculous argument.
In the "War to end all wars" thread, a board member asked custserv if a shapechanged druid would get access to a planetar's spellcasting. Custserv said yes, since spellcasting is an EX ability (and shapechage grants EX as well as SU abilities).
Not true. Alot of them require Turn/Rebuke. Druids can get that, but they have to dip into other PrCs first, some of which don't have easy entry reqs themselves.
Check out Knight of the Raven. Very powerful Prc (it's in a Ravenloft thread on this board). Grants turn undead at level 3, advances spellcasting, BAB as a fighter, and merely requires you to be good and have a BAB of +6 I believe.
...Yeah, some of us still care about that.
Also, I wouldn't let you use DMM to power druid spells. They may count as divine, but it's a different subset, and DMM was not written with druids in mind and you know that as well as I do.
If anything, the planetar spellcasting abuse should be banned. I know I wouldn't allow it in my games. It's just silly. Especially for druids. In terms of style above anything else.
...Yeah, some of us still care about that.
Also, I wouldn't let you use DMM to power druid spells. They may count as divine, but it's a different subset, and DMM was not written with druids in mind and you know that as well as I do.
Those are house rules though.
As written, the OP has a point.
Does losing to Bruce Lee mean that you're a weakling? Not necessarily. In fact, you may actually be considered a god by the average people. Take Chuck Norris for example.
And bringing up things like DMM or prestige classes like RKV, Ordained Champion, or Knight of the Raven is a fallacy. Druids (since we're talkin' bout CoDzilla) can merely multiclass dip into a PrC that grants turning and there you have it.
You're awesome at DMM because you can get turning later than Paladins?
As far as offense:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=605481
(with the exception of turning undead. But turn undead sucks so badly, it's only use is to power DMM).
PS I hope I'm not coming off as confrontational. I just like discussions involving divine spellcasters.
Just wanted to comment on Turn undead - it Hardly Sucks - if You optimize for it - you can make undead and most outsiders (and some other creature types depending on domain) essentially Autolose on sight of you - igredients, 1 part decent char score (16 will do), 1 part sun domain + 1 level in RSOP (or soemthing else that gives grater turning - i think knight of the raven does), 1 part the spell "turn anathema" from complete champion - (let you turn outsiders with alignment opposites to you). and since there are simply Tons of items (and spells) that let you incerase your level as far as turning is concerned (i reached level 23 at level 12 cleric and i only invested about 10k gold in it), if you have a PRC that advance turning you turn undead and outsiders - argubaly 2 of the most dangrous types of enemies in the game into dust.
btw - even without greater turning - making the enemies run away for 10 rounds is usually as good as a win.
and do i need to remind everyone - turning has no Save and No SR...
To make things worse, all of the clerics best PrC's can be easily gotten into with a druid. The same isn't the case for the cleric (just try getting access to MoMF and Planar Shepard).
No DM I know allows Planar Shepard.
The fact that you think that MoMF is a powerhouse class really makes your other arguments look bad. DM's should BEG clerics to take MoMF. It would be a nerf.
- Cleric spellcasting for shapechange has been banned, this will be the case for 99% of your D&D games, the other 1% deserves a slap in the head.
-Cleric won the second match, simply because the druid couldn't do ANYTHING, and let me tell you, it ain't gonna get easier for the third.
As soon as cleric gets his hands on DMM persist, some pretty amazing spells can be cast, at the begining of day, with an amazing caster level, spells such as spell resistance.
Oh, and clerics can get shapechange. Just FYI. Any good spell the druid has, the cleric can get.
I thought this discussion was whether clerics deserve to be part of the title CoDzilla, and even if druids are more powerful, that doesn't mean that cleric isn't an extremely powerful class. It was already proven in this thread that clerics are powerful, and the only arguements against it were that other classes are slightly more broken than cleric, mainly because they have shapechange, a spell which any DM in his right mind should ban.
Also, there was an arguement that druids can get turn undead easily. How, exactly? They can't take Sacred Exorcist, and any other way requires loss of caster levels along with some very harsh requirements.
Just taking core for a second since I'm doing this from memory:
Druids have moderate defense, moderate buffing, low healing, moderate offense and strong battlefield control abilities.
Clerics have very strong defense, buffing, strong healing, weak offense and weak battlefield control abilities.
We can wash out the direct cleric buffs compared to wildshape for simplicity.
While the Druid list looks better at a first look, a druid lacks some staple party necessities such as magic vestment, shield of faith, spell resistance and greater magic weapon.
In addition, clerics have the ability to snatch a handful of the good druid spells with careful domain choice.
Basically, unlike druid spells - cleric spells come in three varieties: those you have scrolls of for emergencies and prep on down days when it isn't (the vast majority of the list like raise dead), those that are going to be used too often to prep (cure spells) which end up in wands & finally a handful of very strong spells that together with your domain spells form your bread and butter.
When combat starts, they assess the situation, then assist the wizard in battlefield control (with spells like Wall of Stone) or drop a spot buff depending on circumstance (short duration stuff like Righteous Wrath or Recitation or both). The whole time they are watching for enemy spellcasters using Battlemagic Perception and/or Rings of Greater Counterspelling with Greater Dispel Magic ready. If a spell is cast that they don't have a solution for (or the party isn't already protected against) then it gets countered. By this time, the wizard has brought some force to bear, and the melee have closed or started damaging and the ranged have already opened up a couple volleys. The cleric can then drop a Heal if needed, or a Mass Cure Light if there is prelevent AoE damage, the melee mops up, everyone packs their things, divees up the loot, uses any pearls of power as needed, lessor vigors up anyone less than full, and move along to the next encounter. Its a little more thankless, but no less vital than the wizard or melee damage.
In special circumstances, the cleric pulls out the Holy Word or the Turn Undead, both of which require a little optimization to keep at full effect, but are so very worth it. These end mook and undead events respectively with minimal resources expended.
Those are house rules though.
As written, the OP has a point.
As long as you spend those 8 hours sleeping and preparing the spells, yes.
As long as you spend those 8 hours sleeping and preparing the spells, yes.
Divine casters, at least Druids and Clerics, don't need to sleep to prepare spells.
You get the point though right? It isn't "free".
Still powerful, but not instantaneous free. "I shape change into a Planetar with EXACTLY THE SPELL LIST I WANT"
"Oh noes! I need a cleric spell! We'll let's shapechange into a whatever and we'll ahve whatever spell we need next round!"
It is still powerful, but it is what it is. It's one of the stronger spells but (as demonstrated), Gate is pretty powerful too.
Hell, with gate you could call in "a being with this spell list" if you absoutely needed to ...
The Cleric list is excellent for self-buffing and you can't just write that off and say the Druid is stronger because of it, because you're then phrasing the question to play to the Druid's strengths. In Core-only I'd say the Cleric list is definitely best for buffs, when you start adding in SC for Wraithstrike, Bite of the WereX, etc then the gishes and melee druids start to catch up. But when you expand sources like that then DMM also comes into play and that really is such a boon to the self-buffer that it still pushes them ahead.
Also, for party buffing the Cleric wins out over the Druid. Just sticking Magic Vestment and Gtr Magic Weapon on your whole party in the morning is an enormous boost, and a dedicated DMM (Chain) buffing Cleric is an excellent buffer. While the Wiz/Sorc can compete with that via War Weaver, the Druid can't, because even if you dip for Turn Undead to replicate the DMM Chain many of the good Druid buffs are either self-only or animals-only.
And on the topic of dipping for Turn Undead - it's costing you at least one caster level to do it, as well as one level of Wild Shape. If you do it via Knight of the Raven its 3 lost levels to get Turning, which is a significant loss of power. So I wouldn't accept the Druid can do DMM as well as the Cleric can.
Finally, there's also things like Banishment and Dismissal earlier than other casters, and Divine CL tends to be easier to boost with things like Divine Spell Power, etc. And given how powerful many outsiders are that's a big thing, and something Druid's don't have up their sleeves.
So, yeah, Druids are strong and have advantages over a Cleric, but the Cleric still has plenty going for him.
It is still powerful, but it is what it is.
Do you by any chance work in my office? EVERYBODY in my office says that all the time. It just sort of creeped me out.
[/threadderail]
Yeah, I honestly have yet to see a melee cleric, even with DMM:Persist, who can hold a candle to a charging fighter/barb mutt build. Sure, they may have the versitility of spell, and high level spells are powerful, but then they are clericing and not bashing.
No DM I know allows Planar Shepard.
Not really fair since it's an official PrC. Not to mention that Shapechage is every bit as powerful as this 10 level PrC. The only thing the Planar Shepard allows that Shapechage doesn't is spell-like abilities(but Shapechange is far more versatile since it allows you to take shapes the Planar Shepard can't). If Planar Shepard is banned by DMs you know, then Shapechange should be as well.
The fact that you think that MoMF is a powerhouse class really makes your other arguments look bad. DM's should BEG clerics to take MoMF. It would be a nerf.
Ever since the official ruling came down that the spellcasting abilities (not spell-like powers) of various creatures in the game is considered an EX ability, MoMF jumped up several steps in terms of power. Just pick a race that's considered an outsider (like Aasimar's) so that you have access to outsider forms and you have a monster in terms of power. Want to get access to 9th level wizard spells? Wildshape into a black etherguant. Need access to cleric spells? Wildshape into a planetar. Need some druid spells? Wildshape into that naga (i forgot it's name) that has access up to level 8 druid spells. Add to the fact that your wildshpe is a SU ability that cannot be dispelled!
An aasimar druid 5/MoMF 10/nature's warrior 5 is a terror in terms of sheer power. Much more so than straight cleric 20, since it has access to 3 classes spell lists (wizard, cleric, and druid).
Oh yes, I agree. Gate is amazing as well and Clerics can easily get their hands on both Shapechange and Gate.
A cleric can indeed easily get their hands on the shapechange spell (gate is already on their spell list). BUT a) a cleric MUST choose a deity with the Animal or Skalykind domains, and b) even then they only get to cast it once. One disjunction and they are out of luck.
Not really fair since it's an official PrC. Not to mention that Shapechage is every bit as powerful as this 10 level PrC. The only thing the Planar Shepard allows that Shapechage doesn't is spell-like abilities(but Shapechange is far more versatile since it allows you to take shapes the Planar Shepard can't). If Planar Shepard is banned by DMs you know, then Shapechange should be as well.
No, it can also give you 10 rounds of actions for every 1 your enemy takes. It is so horribly broken I can't imagine anyone letting someone play it to its full potential.
Ever since the official ruling came down that the spellcasting abilities (not spell-like powers) of various creatures in the game is considered an EX ability, MoMF jumped up several steps in terms of power. Just pick a race that's considered an outsider (like Aasimar's) so that you have access to outsider forms and you have a monster in terms of power. Want to get access to 9th level wizard spells? Wildshape into a black etherguant. Need access to cleric spells? Wildshape into a planetar. Need some druid spells? Wildshape into that naga (i forgot it's name) that has access up to level 8 druid spells. Add to the fact that your wildshpe is a SU ability that cannot be dispelled!
An aasimar druid 5/MoMF 10/nature's warrior 5 is a terror in terms of sheer power. Much more so than straight cleric 20, since it has access to 3 classes spell lists (wizard, cleric, and druid).
Customer service is retarded. You keep making this ridiculous argument over and over again, but as has been pointed out repeatedly, NOONE is going to let druids get access to spellcasting this way. In the past I've argued against bringing up house rules in debates like this, and I know what the Oberoni fallacy is. However, in this case, if we're talking about the "real" power of the classes, rather than the "theoretical" power, then you and I both know (I hope at least) that this "Druids can cast all spells via Shapechange" just isn't realistic.
Also, I'd hardly consider some edge case insane "clarification" from Customer Service to be "official". When it is put in the FAQ (which will never happen), then we can call it official, IMO.
Also, there was an arguement that druids can get turn undead easily. How, exactly? They can't take Sacred Exorcist, and any other way requires loss of caster levels along with some very harsh requirements.
Knight of the Raven PrC from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. Requires a BAB of +6 and good alignment. That's it. At level 3, you get turn undead. Now you can DMM till you get sick of it. The only thing you lose is 1 caster level. The KotR is a full BAB PrC with 9/10 casting. And if the 1 level loss to your wildshape and animal companion level bother you. Merely take the "Natural Bond" feat that adds +3 to your druid level in regard to your animal companions abilities and that other feat, forgot it's name, that adds +4 to your wildshape in terms of HD and forms you can assume.
No, it can also give you 10 rounds of actions for every 1 your enemy takes. It is so horribly broken I can't imagine anyone letting someone play it to its full potential.
And Shapechange let's you assume the form of a Zodar. Now you are immune to ALL damage except bludgeoning. Which is worse?
Customer service is retarded.
I agree with you 1000%. But as it stands, its an official response no? Both the fact that Planar Shepards are an official WotC approved class AND the fact that shapechange grants you access to a creatures spellcasting are kosher.
And Shapechange let's you assume the form of a Zodar. Now you are immune to ALL damage except bludgeoning. Which is worse?
Getting ten rounds to their one is far better than being immune to all but bludgeoning damage. If you haven't managed to either kill them in those ten rounds or run away, something is seriously wrong.
Besides, they can still kill you with bludeoning damage. ;)
And Shapechange let's you assume the form of a Zodar. Now you are immune to ALL damage except bludgeoning. Which is worse?
The 10 rounds of actions. Without a shadow of a doubt
Edit: Ninja'd. Point proven :P
Knight of the Raven PrC from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. Requires a BAB of +6 and good alignment. That's it. At level 3, you get turn undead. Now you can DMM till you get sick of it. The only thing you lose is 1 caster level. The KotR is a full BAB PrC with 9/10 casting. And if the 1 level loss to your wildshape and animal companion level bother you. Merely take the "Natural Bond" feat that adds +3 to your druid level in regard to your animal companions abilities and that other feat, forgot it's name, that adds +4 to your wildshape in terms of HD and forms you can assume.
Okay, so basically you're saying that it's very simple for a cleric to get DMM (Persist), since all it has to do is give up a spellcasting level, take 2 feats to make up for the 3 levels of wild shape and animal companion he had lost, and also take the 3 feats that he needs for DMM (persist). Oh, and then there's Extra Turning feats that you need even if you buy Nightsticks. And don't forget Natural Spell. Considering the fact that druids only have 7 feat in a normal 20-level build that uses human or strongheart halfling, this hardly seems like something that a druid can achieve "easily". Especially when you consider the fact that clerics have 2 domains that give bonus feats that are important to this strategy.
A cleric can indeed easily get their hands on the shapechange spell (gate is already on their spell list). BUT a) a cleric MUST choose a deity with the Animal or Skalykind domains, and b) even then they only get to cast it once. One disjunction and they are out of luck.
a) A cleric can just take any two domains he wants if you don't choose to worship a deity, but instead you choose to worship an ideal.
b) A cleric can take the Spontaneous Domain Casting alternate class feature from PH2 and convert 9th level spells into Shapechange, that way he could get it even more times per day than a druid or wizard of the same level.
Knight of the Raven PrC from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. Requires a BAB of +6 and good alignment. That's it. At level 3, you get turn undead. Now you can DMM till you get sick of it. The only thing you lose is 1 caster level. The KotR is a full BAB PrC with 9/10 casting. And if the 1 level loss to your wildshape and animal companion level bother you. Merely take the "Natural Bond" feat that adds +3 to your druid level in regard to your animal companions abilities and that other feat, forgot it's name, that adds +4 to your wildshape in terms of HD and forms you can assume.
There's a feat that does that?
But at that point you're going to be really starving yourself on feats - and locking up taking anything useful (like lion's pounce) while only hitting dmm in the late game (with a minimum number of turning attempts).
H.) Extend Spell
1.) Spell focus: conjuration
3.) Augment Summoning
6.) Natural Spell
9.) "that" wildshape feat or multiattack or persistant spell?
12.) Natural bond or multiattack or persistant spell or that wildshape feat or DMM persist?
15.) Natural bond or multiattack or persistant spell or that wildshape feat or DMM persist?
18.) Natural bond or multiattack or persistant spell or that wildshape feat or DMM persist?
There's a feat that does that?
Yes. But you can't abuse it to wildshape in creatures with more HD than your character level. It's basically a "practiced caster" for your wildshape ability.
But at that point you're going to be really starving yourself on feats
My point was you don't HAVE to take those feats merely that they exist if you really don't want to give up 3 levels in your animal companion abilities or your wildshape. I wouldn't take those feats. Merely being able to DMM your spells more than makes up for it. The druid would then have the better spell list AND the ability to persist his sick spells all day long. One of the best abilities of a cleric now available to the druid. Now let's see that cleric wildshape (the plant forms are incredible) or have an uber powerful companion like the druid.
a) A cleric can just take any two domains he wants if you don't choose to worship a deity, but instead you choose to worship an ideal.
b) A cleric can take the Spontaneous Domain Casting alternate class feature from PH2 and convert 9th level spells into Shapechange, that way he could get it even more times per day than a druid or wizard of the same level.
Wait, wait, wait. Is this true?
If anyone can confirm points a and b, I'll shut up right now. :embarrassNow let's see that cleric wildshape (the plant forms are incredible) or have an uber powerful companion like the druid.
1) Shapechange, if he wants it. It is good, but I think Gate is actually more powerful if you're willing to pay the XP cost for casting it. Timestop is also as good or better.
2) Uber companion: Necrotic Cyst for permanent enslavement, Rebuked Undead, Animated Awakened Undead.
Wait, wait, wait. Is this true?
Of course its true...
Wait, wait, wait. Is this true?
You can see the alternate class feature for yourself in PH2, thus confirming point b.
As for point a, read the second paragraph in the "Religion" section in page 30 of the PHB, and page 32 of the same book reads:
If your cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, you still select two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities.
Most optimized cleric builds don't worship a particular deity in order to get access to optimal domains.
Most optimized cleric builds don't worship a particular deity in order to get access to optimal domains.
Hmm..... One quick question, how does this "not worshipping a deity" work with PrCs that grant additional domains (like Contemplative)?
Basically what I'm asking is : Can I make a cleric of no particular deity with the ACF Spontaneous Domain Casting and choose the magic domain. Then give up my second domain for the ACF called "divine magician". Then dip into the Contemplative PrC to get the Animal or Skalykind domain?
Hmm..... One quick question, how does this "not worshipping a deity" work with PrCs that grant additional domains (like Contemplative)?
Well, you just choose a third domain that fits with the ideal the character worships.
Basically what I'm asking is : Can I make a cleric of no particular deity with the ACF Spontaneous Domain Casting and choose the magic domain. Then give up my second domain for the ACF called "divine magician". Then dip into the Contemplative PrC to get the Animal or Skalykind domain?
I'm pretty sure that sort of thing can be done.
EDIT: Yes, that's perfectly legal. This is a quote from page 20 in CD:
Sometimes a domain is specified, and other times a character can choose from any domains offered by her deity (or can choose any domain if he doesn't worship a specific god).
Pretty rockzor eh?
Yes. But you can't abuse it to wildshape in creatures with more HD than your character level. It's basically a "practiced caster" for your wildshape ability.
What book is it from? I couldn't find it in the feat index.
What book is it from? I couldn't find it in the feat index.
I could have sworn I saw it on the boards (possibly the Druid handbook)? I'll try to find it then PM you the link.
@Alastar, rhig, PhaedrusXY
Thanks guys. I guess I underestimated clerics. CoDzilla LIVES! :P
What book is it from? I couldn't find it in the feat index.
he is wrong, there is an item in one of the dragon magaizines that stacks +4 to druid level, one in Magic of Faerun +4 to druid level, and one in mic or complete champion (don't remember that adds +1 to wildshape level but unlike the prveious two can push it over your ECL).
Shapechange
Miracle
Restoration
Resurgence
(Persistent) Divine Power
(Persistent) Righteous Might
(Persistent) Divine Favor
Domain Powers / Devotion Feats
Good Saves and Prestige Classes
And they can do everything any other class can do.
Things that are popping into my head, that may or may not be accurate, someone may want to confirm.
-You can only choose an alignment based domain if you are that alignment.
Which doesn't really matter all that much from an optimization perspective though, as the alignment domains aren't all that powerful, but you don't have absolute free reign.
I'm continually amazed at how many DMs apparently not only allow the DMM persist cheese, but the shapechange cheese as well.
If you are going to allow the retarded Polymorph/Shapechange line of spells, you might as well allow DMM: Persistent.
What I find absolutely hilarious is the number of DMs that allow Shapechange but scream bloody murder at DMM: Persist. It is as if downgrading a Cleric into a featless Warrior that is vulnerable to being dispelled back into rat status, susceptible to MAD, etc., is actually more powerful than turning into a spell-casting, intelligent, flying Tarrasque!
If you are going to allow the retarded Polymorph/Shapechange line of spells, you might as well allow DMM: Persistent.
What I find absolutely hilarious is the number of DMs that allow Shapechange but scream bloody murder at DMM: Persist. It is as if downgrading a Cleric into a featless Warrior that is vulnerable to being dispelled back into rat status, susceptible to MAD, etc., is actually more powerful than turning into a spell-casting, intelligent, flying Tarrasque!
Polymorph's not too bad if run by a clever enough DM who reigns in some of the exploits.
I don't have my books available, but I think that there are still a few restrictions on non-deity cleric domains.
Things that are popping into my head, that may or may not be accurate, someone may want to confirm.
-You can only choose an alignment based domain if you are that alignment.
Which doesn't really matter all that much from an optimization perspective though, as the alignment domains aren't all that powerful, but you don't have absolute free reign.
Yes, that restriction does exist, but that's about the only restriction.
DMM: Persist is generally used for perma-buffing the Cleric for him to take the melee role. So, he devotes at least 2 feats on it from his LIMITED pre-feats just to get DMM. Then he blows several of his spells and a chunk of his change to become the BSF. Then, if he wants to be good at his job, he blows even more feats and change on BSF stuff.
All this to turn a CoDzilla into a BSF.
Then, you compare that with a casting optimised Cleric that uses Shapechange.
Yet more people howl about DMM than Shapechange. I have groups of players/DMs absolutely terrified of it, but throw Polymorph, Shapechange and Gate around like they were chump change. It absolutely amuses me no end to see this.
I'm continually amazed at how many DMs apparently not only allow the DMM persist cheese, but the shapechange cheese as well.
As a DM I really don't have a problem with any of the stuff posted on these boards except for the extreme things like infinite loops and the like.
I do however make sure that the players know that their characters aren't the only ones in the game world with access to those things, kind of a gentleman's agreement if you will. I know I can keep up with them in terms of optimizing, it's up to them to determine how far they want to go ;)
~Bowen
I also allow poly and shapechange, but I retain the right to ban anything I dislike. No one has tried to massively abuse it so far, so no complaints there either. I guess it all comes down to adopting a common-sense-above-rules approach... Which should always go without saying of course, but some people have trouble grasping the concept.
Kriskey, that is the Oberoni Fallacy and besides the point.
DMM: Persist is generally used for perma-buffing the Cleric for him to take the melee role. So, he devotes at least 2 feats on it from his LIMITED pre-feats just to get DMM. Then he blows several of his spells and a chunk of his change to become the BSF. Then, if he wants to be good at his job, he blows even more feats and change on BSF stuff.
I admit I derailed this thread, and I apologize.
I will stick to my opinion that DMM: Persist makes the game less fun, however.
The post-errata DMM is fine. I keep it as a motivational tool for picking cleric. No matter how strong the CoDzilla gets, many people will always try their best to avoid playing 'the healer'. So far DMM persist hasn't caused me any trouble at all... It's barely noticable in-game, requires 3 feats (no matter where you get them from), either 18 charisma or extra turnings (more feat slots expended), and essentially means losing the Turn Undead ability. All that for making a spell (or two) last all day. Since clerics only ever get 7 feats in total, that's pretty steep.
I also allow poly and shapechange, but I retain the right to ban anything I dislike. No one has tried to massively abuse it so far, so no complaints there either. I guess it all comes down to adopting a common-sense-above-rules approach... Which should always go without saying of course, but some people have trouble grasping the concept.
That sounds much better to me. I wouldn't mind that campaign. At least post-errata, the cleric would need to link up his DMM with a specific feat. So, he's sacrificing something substantial to become a solid fighter.
That sounds much better to me. I wouldn't mind that campaign. At least post-errata, the cleric would need to link up his DMM with a specific feat. So, he's sacrificing something substantial to become a solid fighter.
Umm... That has been DMM since its inception. The only thing the errata changed was that it has to be used on a divine spell only...
Umm... That has been DMM since its inception. The only thing the errata changed was that it has to be used on a divine spell only...
It was unclear before the errata, but the errata fixed the uncertainty as well as the "can only be used on divine spells".
Umm... That has been DMM since its inception. The only thing the errata changed was that it has to be used on a divine spell only...
Actually no. As far as i know, it previously didn't require the metamagic feats it was applied to, according to the RAW. Just the ability to turn or rebuke undead. Many people have used it in that form for a long time.
You can easily extend out a couple shapechanges to have it up most of the day (heirophant + animal domain + a cheap rod), and then you spend a round to buff, and away you go.
Remember, once you can quicken divine power, clerics are just head and shoulders above all other melee classes.
The thing is, if you really hate DMM: Persist, Quicken spell works nearly as well, and saves you the hassle of DMM.
You can easily extend out a couple shapechanges to have it up most of the day (heirophant + animal domain + a cheap rod), and then you spend a round to buff, and away you go.
Remember, once you can quicken divine power, clerics are just head and shoulders above all other melee classes.
Umm... I once saw a DM devastate an entire party with a lone Cleric of the party's ECL (12). The party consisted of a Fighter, Evoker, Druid + kitty cat and Sorcerer. The silly party gave the Cleric a couple of rounds to buff (there were a couple of level 2 mooks in the way) and that was it. End of story.
There were cries of Persistent Cheese, Nightsticks and stuff (the Cleric was in another room, so the PCs didn't see the Cleric buffing) from the party whiner (the Fighter), but when the DM revealed the Cleric's character sheet (much, much later in the campaign), the guy only had DMM: Quicken and no Nightsticks.
It was ugly. The Cleric was buffed with Spell Resistance, Divine Power, Righteous Might, Magic Vestments, GMW, etc., and on the first round, he dropped two Spiritual Weapons on the Evoker. By the end of the second round, the Evoker was pretty much dead. The Fighter had some template on that gave him DR/magic or some crap like that. The Cleric sliced him almost in half in the second round (he had a magic sword or something). The Cleric's SR stopped everything that round cast at him from the Druid and the Sorcerer.
It was pretty much downhill from there. Final result: Dead Fighter, dead Evoker, dead kitty-cat. Druid mauled half to hell, and the Sorcerer pounded on. The Cleric windwalked away after sustaining 70-80% hit point loss. The only reason that happened was because the Sorcerer is a Draconic Heritage guy with Draconic Breath. Because of the SR, he was sac-ing spell slots to hit him with his breath weapon. The Sorcerer basically saved the party...
I don't know, in pure melee form, I'd throw in one of my fighter builds anytime agaisn't a buffed up cleric, and i do believe i could win.
There in lies the problem, no decent Cleric build is a one-trick melee monster. Match starts, he hits you with a Mordekainen's Disjunction and laughs like a maniac.
There in lies the problem, no decent Cleric build is a one-trick melee monster. Match starts, he hits you with a Mordekainen's Disjunction and laughs like a maniac.
Or Gate in a Solar and laugh even harder...
Or casts a Maximized Time Stop, Gates in 5 Solars, and then Teleports to the beach to hang out with the Wizard.
Bah! 4 Solars and a Succubus and teleport to the beach with the latter to hang out with the Wizard. If you are going to overkil AND show up the Wizard, you might as well do it in style.
And there are way better things to gate in than a solar.
It's your CL x2 in HD, epic level handbook anyone?
And as a warrior, i would flee right there, probably succeeding since i'm such a tank.
And then try again, until the cleric has no more exp.
Good gods, who is this warrior of yours? Chuck Norris or Samuel L Jackson? :D
Oh, by the way, a level 20 Cleric with an xp of 0 is still a level 20 Cleric...
Yeah, except that just cost him 5000 exp.
And there are way better things to gate in than a solar.
It's your CL x2 in HD, epic level handbook anyone?
And as a warrior, i would flee right there, probably succeeding since i'm such a tank.
And then try again, until the cleric has no more exp.
You would, however, get a lot more than 5000xp for defeating that encounter, right?
And gating in Uvuudaums is a lot better an option. They have Nailed to the sky, Contingent resurrection, Time duplicate and Time stop as SLAs among heaps of lower level spells. You know, they just teleport that melee guy out to the orbit, cast Contingent resurrection on you and you can go and have a party.
Flee? Against something with cleric casting AND fast flight modes AND firing multiple die or take a bundle of damage arrows from his monster bow?
Good gods, who is this warrior of yours? Chuck Norris or Samuel L Jackson? :D
Oh, by the way, a level 20 Cleric with an xp of 0 is still a level 20 Cleric...
First of all.
Yes, he is a combination of both.
Second of all.
Boots of teleport? naaaaaaaaaaaaaan that'd be farfetched, i mean, WHO GETS THOSE!!!!???
And yeah, but he can't gate in solars can he, wich means he has to face me. One on one, mano to mano.
I'm pretty sure a cleric can be lockdowned.
And in that particular situation, the cleric teleported away from the battle, so i can just as easily teleport away, and leave the solars flabbergasted.
First of all.
Yes, he is a combination of both.
Second of all.
Boots of teleport? naaaaaaaaaaaaaan that'd be farfetched, i mean, WHO GETS THOSE!!!!???
And yeah, but he can't gate in solars can he, wich means he has to face me. One on one, mano to mano.
I'm pretty sure a cleric can be lockdowned.
And in that particular situation, the cleric teleported away from the battle, so i can just as easily teleport away, and leave the solars flabbergasted.
Repulsion Will save.
Expanded Anti-Life Shell.
And what do you mean he cannot gate in stuff? This is still the first combat. Your boots of Teleport is not at will, you know. How many times can your Fighter do that before the Cleric wises up and hit you with a Dimensional Anchor before you can even squeak? Once?
And before you say anything else, the Cleric has a lot more gold to spend on items than you have, even if he is just trying to match you item for item. GMW, Spikes, MV, etc. are just that good. So don't even bother bringing in items. That is just stupid.
EDIT:
Actually, screw that. I gate in a Pit Fiend/Balor/Solar. I promise said being all of the warrior's equipment in exchange for his death plus a little extra if it will bring me the warrior's head. For the Solar, I'd say that the warrior is a child molester or something to sweeten the deal. I am sure that about 3/4 million gp worth of magic items would be tempting.
So, no time limit, and we have a bunch of guys chasing the warrior wherever he goes for the rest of his life. I sit back and cast an occassional Scry to watch the fun with my Wizard buddy and the Succubus.
I don't know, in pure melee form, I'd throw in one of my fighter builds anytime agaisn't a buffed up cleric, and i do believe i could win.
I think that Alastar was merely talking about a cleric not being able to out-melee a fighter, which is true. Of course, who needs to out-melee a fighter when you have 50 different ways to dispose of said fighter using spells.
I think that Alastar was merely talking about a cleric not being able to out-melee a fighter, which is true. Of course, who needs to out-melee a fighter when you have 50 different ways to dispose of said fighter using spells.
THANK you!!!
Finally someone who understands me.
And andyjames
The cleric is chilling on the beach in the first battle, remember. He's with the wizard.
he also used 1000 exp to gate in a succubi, for some reason....
A second level spell, from Complete Champion:Substitute Domain.
Now you can do your buffing in the morning, and then switch your Domains to something else entirely. Last 1 day-per level.
You would probably need a God with said domains, due to the wording of the spell.
It might also be useful for some one who wanted to have a Rebuked army of creatures from all 4 elements.Trick out your Turning, and go to town.
Bah! 4 Solars and a Succubus and teleport to the beach with the latter to hang out with the Wizard. If you are going to overkil AND show up the Wizard, you might as well do it in style.
Repulsion Will save.
Expanded Anti-Life Shell.
And what do you mean he cannot gate in stuff? This is still the first combat. Your boots of Teleport is not at will, you know. How many times can your Fighter do that before the Cleric wises up and hit you with a Dimensional Anchor before you can even squeak? Once?
And before you say anything else, the Cleric has a lot more gold to spend on items than you have, even if he is just trying to match you item for item. GMW, Spikes, MV, etc. are just that good. So don't even bother bringing in items. That is just stupid.
All I'm saying is that you said that the cleric could kill the fighter while being on the beach, and I'm showing you it's very unlikely he can.
But as was pointed out before, I'm only saying that as a melee only guy, the fighter is the better of the two. All your exemples include not being melee. Now please don't get insulting.
@Aftercrescent:
Sure, why not, can tshern be the DM, i like his style.
Oh and also, No polymorph of any kind, i'm sick of that ****.
i mean, i know CO usually focuses on 20th level builds but, in most games there are in fact like, 17 levels before you get access to them.
More insanely game breaking? Who cares?! Either class, left to it's own devices with nothing other than the PHB to work with, can completely destroy the balance, pacing, storyline, fun factor, and any other aspect of any campaign if the player wants to. This is kind of the 'cut off' limit for power levels: anything more than that is simply overkill and doesn't really matter.
All I'm saying is that you said that the cleric could kill the fighter while being on the beach, and I'm showing you it's very unlikely he can.
But as was pointed out before, I'm only saying that as a melee only guy, the fighter is the better of the two. All your exemples include not being melee. Now please don't get insulting.
@Aftercrescent:
Sure, why not, can tshern be the DM, i like his style.
Oh and also, No polymorph of any kind, i'm sick of that ****.
Bull. You keep going back to the fight, claiming that your warrior can pin the Cleric. We never got past the fight to the sunning himself on the beach yet because you can't seem to get past the fact that a Cleric will tool your warrior simply because he has OTHER OPTIONS instead of just melee-ing. Anyway you look at it, the Cleric tools your warrior. Gate alone kicks your rear. Not only once, but indefinitely, with the whole complete a task clause of Gate.
You know what? Forget it. I have neither the time nor the inclination to talk to someone that thinks he is funny by trying to take the mikey out of everything instead of actually discussing something because he knows he has been beaten. That is such an immature way of debating, and I just don't have the patience for it.
So, you win. Yada yada yada. Whatever.
I semi-followed the cleric/druid battle, so let's do something similar.
Best 2 rounds out of 3 per setting. What settings do you have in mind?
Besides any polymorphing (I'm not a fan either, honestly) anything else we should get out of the way first? Cleric only v Fighter only or what?
Oh and also, No polymorph of any kind, i'm sick of that ****.
Ok. But then the fighter can't use any weapon. :P
Seriously, there's not much point to the melee if you start ignoring advantages of the cleric. Either as a whole, the fighter is of equal martial ability or it doesn't.
@Aftercrescent:
Sure, why not, can tshern be the DM, i like his style.
Oh and also, No polymorph of any kind, i'm sick of that ****.
@ Alastar: Sure, if Tshern is up for it, I'm cool with him DMing.
Sure. I can't do it before Sunday, because I've got all week full already, but you make a thread for this and all that, I'll be ready.
Is this going to be pure melee or can the Cleric use his brain as well?
Feat expenditure:
Persistant Spell, Maximise Spell
DMM Persist, DMM Maximise
Power Attack
+1 Huge Proficient Spiked chain. Strongarm Bracers. Greater Magic Weapon. Infernal Transformation. Divine Power. Divine Favour. 2 or 3 Signs/day for +4 initiative. Greater Visage of the Deity. Owl's Insight via Miracle. My CL is already through the roof, now my stats are, too, I'm large, have tons of HP. I have a tail that attacks at full Bab and does Str. damage poison. vs fort. Any will-save spell I could throw at him now will have a DC he will very probably never make, even if I never took on Spell Focus. (My wis score at that point is: 18+5+5+2+6+15 = 51. My Con score is 18+5+4+6+4+4 = 41. My Str. Score is 10+3+100 = 113. My melee attack bonus is 20+6+51+5 = 82)
P.S. I forgot the second Miracle for Bite of the Werebear, in which case it looks even worse. Now I'm a Half-fiend Werebear Bone Devil.
Have fun fighter.
Case 1: Win Inititiative, hopefully, Cast Max Time Stop, Buff (or have Nightsticks, in which case I am fully buffed, I can go without the time stop), and Dimensional Anchor.
Trip the fighter with the first attack every round and whack him with the others. Fighter is not tripped on his natural 20 or my natural 1, because my strength mod is at least 20 above his. I have 20ft reach, the fighter only 10. I'm sure I could even come up with more reach. If he takes a double move he'll approach me, but I can still trip him again on the way. Next round I take a five food step and start again.
Case 2: Fighter wins initiative, does his thang one round. He'll practically auto-lose any opposed strength checks. I have a gazillion Hitpoints from tons of con and temp HP on top. After his first round I'll probably be standing there laughing. Switch to case 1.
Let's not forget every one of my hits will do 3d6+75+40+5+6 = 3D6 + 126 damage.
The only chance he has is dropping me completely in round one, and only a dire-charging Barb could pull that off, IMHO. Oh, dire charge was epic.
I'm looking forward to Fighter builds to beat this in melee.
Can we multiclass?? Or does this HAVE to be Fighter 20 vs cleric 20.
Cause if not I'd probably get warblade levels.
Warblade offers a lot more options, and works by different mechanics. I'm pretty certain a warblade could do it, but I'm not very familiar with it, so I'm looking foward to your build.
If you could make both, I would be very obliged.
Do you want to make this a formal duel like the C/D duels? I'm in Germany, so quite a different time-zone. If you could translate times for me into GMT that would be good.
What item rules do we use? Multiple effect items or just single effect?
I would want to use the following multiple effect items:
Monk's Belt of Magnificence: 230000 G; If that doesn't work I could put the Monk's effect on a robe, since my armour slot is free anyway.
Strongarm Bracers of Armour +8, although I could also make do with a large spiked chain. Huge is just for effect.
On these, the cheaper effect would come at a 50% increase in price.
Other items I would use:
+1 Speed, Proficient hardened adamantine Spiked chain (large or huge)
Nightsticks, 8
Multiple Holy symbols, since I'm level 20 I know all about people trying to sunder them.
Ion Stone for +1 CL
Animated Heavy adamantine shield +5.
Vest of resistances +5.
I'm a cleric, so I would be very stupid indeed to buy tomes, but just for the sake of the game, I'll buy them for Wis and Con and a +3 for Str so I can legally take PA.
I'm a bit too lazy to calculate everything now. Does it look like I've gone over my budget?
I just remembered that one thing that COULD put an early stop to me is massive damage. I'm not familiar with those rules, because we always play without massive damage, so you'll have to enlighten me.
Do also mind that if you sunder my weapon I'll have not much choice but to use spells.
Do you want to make this a formal duel like the C/D duels? I'm in Germany, so quite a different time-zone. If you could translate times for me into GMT that would be good.
I am in Finland, ever worse.
Use whatever items you want as long as you keep within the rules. You seem to lack Beads of Karma.
Does it have to be in MELEE, or can the fighter be something else, say, a dagger throwing man.
Well, you claimed your "fighter build" could defeat any buffed melee cleric. I suppose you could go ahead, but at this point it seems as if you have to HEAVILY stack the deck in your favor, allowing yourself many more options than your willing to allow the Cleric, to come up with a winnable build.
Alastar, let's make one melee duel, where you can multiclass, and one duel at any distance, where you are fighter 20. Is that ok with you? I'll try the same build for either of those.
I'm feeling a bit ill right now, and my thinking is all muddled. I'll see if I can complete a build by tomorrow or the day after, is that ok?
If you still want me to run this you don't need to bother yourself before Sunday. I have places to be and duties to fulfill before that. For some odd reason, all holidays seem to be full of action, at least that's the case with me.
.I'll also be away for the weekend, I'll only be back tuesday. So we do it next week.
Did we just kick me out of this duel? I'm pretty sure I got first dibs on Alastar ;)
I have to run to class, but I'll make a thread for it later today.
For example, if at 9th level Druids are casting Control Winds or the Wizard is stacking Cloudkill on another fog spell, the Cleric is casting what? Righteous Might, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Spell Resistance? So you can either be ending fights or buffing for a protracted fight? Basically the Cleric can turn himself into a BSF (and admittedly a very good one) with a little extra utility thrown in. Certainly not weak, but at all deserving of its status?
GASP
BLASPHEMY!!!! (CL28)
Yes, at those levels, where it's easy to have 18 strenght a greatsword, weapon focus, giving you +6 to hit, meaning you have around 50-60% chance of killing.... just about anything thrown at you.
With 18 strenght, a lvl 1 fighter deals 2d6 +6, so that's 13 average damage with a greatsword.
THrow in a glaive to get that AoO and kill more stuff.
Heck, GET CLEAVE!!!! Oh yeah, i said it, GET CLEAVE!!!
Level 1 is one of the levels where the fighter can really feel useful!
Or Precocious Apprentice with a Invisibility in the second level slot and then cast Sleep, with Colour Spray in reserve.
For example, Spikes, Magic Vestments x2 and Greater Magic Weapon means that you can play a very effective sword and board fighter (probably the only one in existence that is close to TWF ot THF) when coupled with Divine Power, Righteous Might, Divine Favour, Greater Visage of the Deity, etc. Get Greater Mighty Wallop with Extra Spell and have a Tigerskull Club do up to 8d6 base damage a pop, or an ordinary humble club do 4d6 base a pop. Burn another feat on Bite of the Werebear and go to town.
Note that you have not spent a single gp on weapons or armour yet. Not that you can find a Medium-sized weapon that you can wield one-handed that does 4d6+20+(HUGE)str+extras like Divine Favour damage and optional stuff like by-passing alignment DR, etc., even if you can afford to pay for it. You will have to pay for the Nightsticks.
A naked Cleric with his divine focus can be a credible melee threat with nothing more than a wooden table leg. Few other classes can claim the same.
-Cleric won the second match, simply because the druid couldn't do ANYTHING, and let me tell you, it ain't gonna get easier for the third
1) I forced a HOUSERULE so that I wouldn't have BETTER cleric casting than you.
2) I used identical tactics as the core only match. I just flipped around two feats (for more init) and added one item that didnt come into play.
Basically I got cocky and let you metagame against me. Bad planning on my part.
1) I forced a HOUSERULE so that I wouldn't have BETTER cleric casting than you.
2) I used identical tactics as the core only match. I just flipped around two feats (for more init) and added one item that didnt come into play.
Basically I got cocky and let you metagame against me. Bad planning on my part.
You wouldn't have gotten better Cleric casting than he did. However, Solar gives you 20th level casting, which is exactly as good as he did.
About your cockiness, I figured as much, but didn't want to say anything. After all, DM's job is to DM, not to tell how to win duels.
You wouldn't have gotten better Cleric casting than he did. However, Solar gives you 20th level casting, which is exactly as good as he did.
About your cockiness, I figured as much, but didn't want to say anything. After all, DM's job is to DM, not to tell how to win duels.
Higher wisdom from timeless body.
But yeah, i figured as much, last duel was pretty much downhill. Can't wait till you can do the third one ;)
Check out Knight of the Raven. Very powerful Prc (it's in a Ravenloft thread on this board). Grants turn undead at level 3, advances spellcasting, BAB as a fighter, and merely requires you to be good and have a BAB of +6 I believe.
It also requires you find the ancient chapel of the KotR, and pray there. Good luck getting there. Good luck finding a DM who will let you play a KotR in an non-Ravenloft setting, too.
People keep forgetting that the idea behind a PrC is that you join a Prestige Organization, and learn their (quite often secret) techniques. You can't just say "okay, I'm going to be a Knight of the Weave now. in Eberron." Well, okay unless your DM okays it.
It also requires you find the ancient chapel of the KotR, and pray there. Good luck getting there. Good luck finding a DM who will let you play a KotR in an non-Ravenloft setting, too.
People keep forgetting that the idea behind a PrC is that you join a Prestige Organization, and learn their (quite often secret) techniques.
The flavor is pretty darn easy to adapt. Meshes nicely with RSoP.
People keep forgetting that the idea behind a PrC is that you join a Prestige Organization, and learn their (quite often secret) techniques. You can't just say "okay, I'm going to be a Knight of the Weave now. in Eberron." Well, okay unless your DM okays it.
What is this, the Character Development board?
What is this, the Character Development board?
Just pointing out that "Well X can do Y" doesn't prove anything. Especially if no DM will actually let you play X.
Planar Shepherd being a case in point. No sane DM is going to let you be a Planar Shepherd associated with Dal Quor. Why people brougt it up here is beyond me.
Just pointing out that "Well X can do Y" doesn't prove anything. Especially if no DM will actually let you play X.
Planar Shepherd being a case in point. No sane DM is going to let you be a Planar Shepherd associated with Dal Quor. Why people brougt it up here is beyond me.
No sane DM will let you play any planar sheperd period.
No sane DM will let you play any planar sheperd period.
Don't agree with that. I just promised to play a supportive character each time and I never outshined anyone simply because I didn't want to and they had no idea about my true powers.
Though I also was pointing out that playing a KotR meant playing a character competent/lucky enough to get into the KotR prestige organization. Not something you can just take for granted.
If you just go by the table, you can get into Unseen Seer without any ranks in social skills. However, to join the Seekers of Truth, you need to make a DC 20 gather information check in a size-able city. Prestige Classes are (supposed to be) a bit more than the advancement they grant your character. But I suppose that;s silly CharDev stuff.
Okay, yeah, point. DM's often allow all sorts of sillyness if they like the player enough.
Though I also was pointing out that playing a KotR meant playing a character competent/lucky enough to get into the KotR prestige organization. Not something you can just take for granted.
If you just go by the table, you can get into Unseen Seer without any ranks in social skills. However, to join the Seekers of Truth, you need to make a DC 20 gather information check in a size-able city. Prestige Classes are (supposed to be) a bit more than the advancement they grant your character. But I suppose that;s silly CharDev stuff.
Not 'silly Char Dev' stuff, but it is stuff that varies wildly from campaign to campaign, especially when flavor is mutable and joining organizations isn't hard. And you can always take twenty on a gather information check if you have the time.