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Cleric-driven gish?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
ChristopherGroves
Mar 24, 2008 21:56:06 So ... I'm a big fan of the cleric dip. Can't help it. Devotions and/or domain powers. YAr.

One of the other threads got me thinking about gishes and whether or not you could do one without the typical fighter/etc. dip and use Cleric instead.

Core gish PrCs are:
Eldritch Knight - needs spellcasting, all martial weapons
Spellsword - needs bab, heavy armor and all martial weapons
Knight Phantom - needs specific spell, all martial weapons
Abjurant Champion - needs bab, one martial weapon

Dragonslayer gets special note - it requires bab, two feats (Dodge, Iron Will) but grants weapon and armor profs.

Thing is, starting with a cleric dip is going to immediately sink you one BAB. Cloistered will sink you armor profs too, so badness.

Cleric / Wizard gishes are also only possible with a race that has no favored class or cleric/wizard as its favored class.

The Chaond or however it is spelled is a +1 LA outsider with no favored class ... and if it gets the outsider traits, that's proficiency with all martial weapons. So a Chaond-cleric could pull it off.

Eveyrone else I think would have to go Dragonslayer, else you're losing too many caster levels.
#2
neraagile
Mar 24, 2008 22:00:43 Why? PrC don't count towards XP penalties ...and neither does paragons (though the only ones of note in this case has fav class in whats needed)
Taking a prestige class does not incur the experience point penalties normally associated with multiclassing.

#3
22_Over_7
Mar 24, 2008 23:36:21
Why? PrC don't count towards XP penalties ...and neither does paragons (though the only ones of note in this case has fav class in whats needed)

Except that unless Cleric, Wizard or "any" is your favored class, a Cleric X/Wizard X+Y where Y>=2 incurs XP penalties.
#4
neraagile
Mar 25, 2008 0:14:47
Except that unless Cleric, Wizard or "any" is your favored class, a Cleric X/Wizard X+Y where Y>=2 incurs XP penalties.

True, True :P
#5
aftercrescent
Mar 25, 2008 0:43:43 If LA buy-off is allowed, I'd take that over a prestige that requires so much to qualify. Might as well take a level of fighter, that gets prof and other goodies. Chaond doesn't have anything really useful for a LA+1, according to the 3.5 update.
#6
phaedrusxy
Mar 25, 2008 1:14:24
Might as well take a level of fighter, that gets prof and other goodies.

Like what? A point of BAB and one feat? With the right domains, you can get 2 feats from a cleric dip, or one of the Devotion abilities instead. And the ability to use cleric-based magic items. Cleric is easily better than fighter for alot of builds, if you plan on getting your BAB back via Divine Might or something, anyway.
Chaond doesn't have anything really useful for a LA+1, according to the 3.5 update.

It opens up all kinds of abuse with the Polymorph chain of spells, and just the fact that your type is outsider has several benefits.
#7
aftercrescent
Mar 25, 2008 1:19:15 Yes, which is why I said if LA buyoff was in, take the chaond. Outsider type is nice. Stat-wise they give you nothing special. Why not take another LA+1 outsider? I'm sure you can find one with the right favored class.

The fighter comment was in regard to the OP's suggestion of using Draonslayer. A one level dip that requires 2 feats to get into? I'd just take the fighter level for the extra feat and no reqs.
#8
phaedrusxy
Mar 25, 2008 1:25:15
Yes, which is why I said if LA buyoff was in, take the chaond. Outsider type is nice. Stat-wise they give you nothing special. Why not take another LA+1 outsider? I'm sure you can find one with the right favored class.

The fighter comment was in regard to the OP's suggestion of using Draonslayer. A one level dip that requires 2 feats to get into? I'd just take the fighter level for the extra feat and no reqs.

Ah, yeah. I agree. I misunderstood what you were saying before.
#9
nightwyrm
Mar 25, 2008 11:47:19 I think you might have underestimated the impact of the lower cleric BAB. As you have pointed out, most gish PrC requires a minimum BAB. Dipping cleric as opposed to fighter means that you'll be delaying entry into those PrCs. Currently, one of the most common way to enter a gish build is wiz6/ftr1 (which has +4 BAB) then going into one level of EK or spellsword (+5 BAB) then into Abj champ. By dipping cleric, you'll need another level of something to make up for the BAB requirements, either 2 more lvs in wiz or by going to cleric 2. If you have all martial weapon prof from somewhere else then you can go into EK, but if you don't then the trade off might not be worth it. Even dragonslayer requires +5 BAB to get into, in addition to two feats.
#10
ChristopherGroves
Mar 25, 2008 11:54:53 I'm not underestimating the impact of the lower cleric BAB.

I'm trying to gauge it in my head when paired with something like (for instance) Knowledge, Travel and Animal devotion. Is +1 BAB worth that?
#11
nightwyrm
Mar 25, 2008 11:59:24 I'm not talking about the impact of +1 BAB on play (btw, the stuff you pointed out I think are worthy tradeoffs with a simple +1 BAB). I am concerned about the impact of delaying entry into full (or almost full) casting gish PrC because of entry requirements, a delay that could cost you wiz casting levels (and that is where I don't think the tradeoff is worth it).
#12
squashmonster
Mar 25, 2008 13:06:41 Random Outsider Race
Cleric 1 / Wizard 6 / Eldritch Knight 1 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Eldritch Knight +6

With LA-buyoff makes for CL 18 and 16 BAB, which is the bare minimums for a respectable gish. Compare to CL 18 and 17 BAB for the standard.

I'd say it's worth it. You get could get Turn Undead, Travel Devotion, and Knowledge Devotion, in exchange for 1 BAB and being forced to play an outsider.

EDIT: Neraph from Planar Handbook sounds like a great race for this. No LA, outsider, and gets a nifty ability that makes opponents flatfooted on charges. Looks like a great choice if you don't use multiclass penalties.
#13
bowensilverclaw1986
Mar 25, 2008 13:44:58 As for proficiencies, the Militia feat should do the trick, or pick up Otherworldly for outsider goodness

~Bowen
#14
nightwyrm
Mar 25, 2008 21:22:46 Although if you're getting martial weapon prof via the militia feat or outsider, why not just go straight into EK after wiz 5.

Then, the comparison would be more of wiz 5/EK 10/AC 5 vs. clr 1/wiz 5/EK 9/AC 5.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ChristopherGroves Mar 24, 2008 21:56:06	So ... I'm a big fan of the cleric dip. Can't help it. Devotions and/or domain powers. YAr. One of the other threads got me thinking about gishes and whether or not you could do one without the typical fighter/etc. dip and use Cleric instead. Core gish PrCs are: Eldritch Knight - needs spellcasting, all martial weapons Spellsword - needs bab, heavy armor and all martial weapons Knight Phantom - needs specific spell, all martial weapons Abjurant Champion - needs bab, one martial weapon Dragonslayer gets special note - it requires bab, two feats (Dodge, Iron Will) but grants weapon and armor profs. Thing is, starting with a cleric dip is going to immediately sink you one BAB. Cloistered will sink you armor profs too, so badness. Cleric / Wizard gishes are also only possible with a race that has no favored class or cleric/wizard as its favored class. The Chaond or however it is spelled is a +1 LA outsider with no favored class ... and if it gets the outsider traits, that's proficiency with all martial weapons. So a Chaond-cleric could pull it off. Eveyrone else I think would have to go Dragonslayer, else you're losing too many caster levels.
#2 neraagile Mar 24, 2008 22:00:43	Why? PrC don't count towards XP penalties ...and neither does paragons (though the only ones of note in this case has fav class in whats needed) Taking a prestige class does not incur the experience point penalties normally associated with multiclassing.
#3 22_Over_7 Mar 24, 2008 23:36:21	Why? PrC don't count towards XP penalties ...and neither does paragons (though the only ones of note in this case has fav class in whats needed) Except that unless Cleric, Wizard or "any" is your favored class, a Cleric X/Wizard X+Y where Y>=2 incurs XP penalties.
#4 neraagile Mar 25, 2008 0:14:47	Except that unless Cleric, Wizard or "any" is your favored class, a Cleric X/Wizard X+Y where Y>=2 incurs XP penalties. True, True :P
#5 aftercrescent Mar 25, 2008 0:43:43	If LA buy-off is allowed, I'd take that over a prestige that requires so much to qualify. Might as well take a level of fighter, that gets prof and other goodies. Chaond doesn't have anything really useful for a LA+1, according to the 3.5 update.
#6 phaedrusxy Mar 25, 2008 1:14:24	Might as well take a level of fighter, that gets prof and other goodies. Like what? A point of BAB and one feat? With the right domains, you can get 2 feats from a cleric dip, or one of the Devotion abilities instead. And the ability to use cleric-based magic items. Cleric is easily better than fighter for alot of builds, if you plan on getting your BAB back via Divine Might or something, anyway. Chaond doesn't have anything really useful for a LA+1, according to the 3.5 update. It opens up all kinds of abuse with the Polymorph chain of spells, and just the fact that your type is outsider has several benefits.
#7 aftercrescent Mar 25, 2008 1:19:15	Yes, which is why I said if LA buyoff was in, take the chaond. Outsider type is nice. Stat-wise they give you nothing special. Why not take another LA+1 outsider? I'm sure you can find one with the right favored class. The fighter comment was in regard to the OP's suggestion of using Draonslayer. A one level dip that requires 2 feats to get into? I'd just take the fighter level for the extra feat and no reqs.
#8 phaedrusxy Mar 25, 2008 1:25:15	Yes, which is why I said if LA buyoff was in, take the chaond. Outsider type is nice. Stat-wise they give you nothing special. Why not take another LA+1 outsider? I'm sure you can find one with the right favored class. The fighter comment was in regard to the OP's suggestion of using Draonslayer. A one level dip that requires 2 feats to get into? I'd just take the fighter level for the extra feat and no reqs. Ah, yeah. I agree. I misunderstood what you were saying before.
#9 nightwyrm Mar 25, 2008 11:47:19	I think you might have underestimated the impact of the lower cleric BAB. As you have pointed out, most gish PrC requires a minimum BAB. Dipping cleric as opposed to fighter means that you'll be delaying entry into those PrCs. Currently, one of the most common way to enter a gish build is wiz6/ftr1 (which has +4 BAB) then going into one level of EK or spellsword (+5 BAB) then into Abj champ. By dipping cleric, you'll need another level of something to make up for the BAB requirements, either 2 more lvs in wiz or by going to cleric 2. If you have all martial weapon prof from somewhere else then you can go into EK, but if you don't then the trade off might not be worth it. Even dragonslayer requires +5 BAB to get into, in addition to two feats.
#10 ChristopherGroves Mar 25, 2008 11:54:53	I'm not underestimating the impact of the lower cleric BAB. I'm trying to gauge it in my head when paired with something like (for instance) Knowledge, Travel and Animal devotion. Is +1 BAB worth that?
#11 nightwyrm Mar 25, 2008 11:59:24	I'm not talking about the impact of +1 BAB on play (btw, the stuff you pointed out I think are worthy tradeoffs with a simple +1 BAB). I am concerned about the impact of delaying entry into full (or almost full) casting gish PrC because of entry requirements, a delay that could cost you wiz casting levels (and that is where I don't think the tradeoff is worth it).
#12 squashmonster Mar 25, 2008 13:06:41	Random Outsider Race Cleric 1 / Wizard 6 / Eldritch Knight 1 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Eldritch Knight +6 With LA-buyoff makes for CL 18 and 16 BAB, which is the bare minimums for a respectable gish. Compare to CL 18 and 17 BAB for the standard. I'd say it's worth it. You get could get Turn Undead, Travel Devotion, and Knowledge Devotion, in exchange for 1 BAB and being forced to play an outsider. EDIT: Neraph from Planar Handbook sounds like a great race for this. No LA, outsider, and gets a nifty ability that makes opponents flatfooted on charges. Looks like a great choice if you don't use multiclass penalties.
#13 bowensilverclaw1986 Mar 25, 2008 13:44:58	As for proficiencies, the Militia feat should do the trick, or pick up Otherworldly for outsider goodness ~Bowen
#14 nightwyrm Mar 25, 2008 21:22:46	Although if you're getting martial weapon prof via the militia feat or outsider, why not just go straight into EK after wiz 5. Then, the comparison would be more of wiz 5/EK 10/AC 5 vs. clr 1/wiz 5/EK 9/AC 5.