| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| #1tdsaw111May 10, 2008 17:34:44 | Ok, so I am trying to make a DMM Cleric in Ebberon. I have looked at several threads but am just having a rough time bringing it all together. I am using rolled stats. Books are Core, Complete, SRD, and anything else I can try to get approved but after a couple of seriously overwhelming builds, I am on a short leash. So here is what I have at the moment. Middle-Aged Human Cloistered Cleric 6. Stats: Str 9 Dex 14 Con 10 Int 15 Wis 17 Cha 18 I am focusing on using the increased Skills, and Knowledges to take ranks in just about every knowledge so as to per able to always make a knowledge check. This is mainly a flavor thing. Domains: Planning to get Exend Spell for free, Time for Imp. Init. and Haste, and of course Knowledge since it is free. As far as I know my DM is most likely not going to allow me to have Night Sticks, or Reliquary Holy Symbols, so I am most likely limited in this regard. So, I have decided to try this. Feats: Persistant Spell (Human Bonus) Extra Turning(1st level) DMM Persistant(3rd Level) Extra Turning (6th level) Ok so this will allow me to persist 2 spells a day, right now I am thinking most likely Haste will be one as the majority of the party are melee combatants. Any thing I am missing? I have also looked for a good PrC but cant find anything I really felt I could justify. I liked Contemplative, but since I am going to have to worship The Dragon (fill in the blank I cant remember) and it is in Ebberon where the actual meeting of Gods or their messengers is more than a little rare, I cant really make the prereq's. I also like the idea of Hierophant at least for the free Reach Spell, and the Metamagic Feats that I can take. But that is a minimum entry of like level 12. So I am at a loss. No idea what to do, or where to go. Any help would be great! Thanks guys. |
| #2tdsaw111May 10, 2008 22:53:58 | Really any help is more than appreciated. |
| #3aftercrescentMay 10, 2008 23:23:49 | Assuming you started with 10/15/11/14/16/17 Arrange as follows 10 14 15 11 17 16 Middle age makes you 9 13 14 12 18 17 I'm almost tempted to say being middle age doesn't really help you all this much, but it does a little. Either way will work Get planning and undeath for domains. Imp Init is nice, but not essential here. You can't persist haste, so it's not needed either. Haste has a close range, not a fixed range. So Planning, Undeath, and Knowledge. Not a bad choice, but I'd almost say to drop the CC and go regular cleric here, for the heavy armor. But then again, it depends on what kind of cleric you want. (this will change your stat placement, though) If you're in Eberron two prestige classes come to mind. Bone Knight and Sovereign Speaker. Can you use either of those? If not, I'd suggest looking at divine oracle for what you want. It's a decent investment for 1 feat. Feat: Extend/Extra turning from domains Persist/DMM Persist from 1 and human feats 3 is either extra turning or a qualifier feat for one of your PrC. 6 is extra turning. You'll be good to go. As for spells to persist, see if you can get the Spell Compendium okay'd (I hope so), which has some great spells to persist, like mass lesser vigor... |
| #4tdsaw111May 11, 2008 7:09:37 | Which book are those PrC from? I am pretty sure if they are from an Ebberon book that the DM has he will let me use them. I didn't realize Haste was unpersistable. Oh well. I kinda wanted to avoid the undead stuff but, perhaps I make the character be from Karrnath instead. The Undeath domain would fit thematically with that. Any way to get Haste other that taking the Time or Celerity domains? I mainly want it because the group is so Melee heavy and I cant rely on the arcane caster taking group buffs because he cant get through the idea that while rolling x number of dice for damage is nifty, granting the party with 3 heavy melee fighters and a rogue, an extra attack, bonus AC, to hit, and movement tends to actually come out at a hell of a lot more damage than his fireball, which he can't use without hitting the party anyway. I will look into the spell compendium, not sure if I can get it okayed or not. I have a PDF of it but the DM is on a kick about only allowing books that I are physically available. Any suggestions for other spells to Persist? It looks like if I take the Undeath domain I may be able to pick up either quicken, and later DMM quicken, or another Extra Turning to push more Persists. |
| #5tdsaw111May 11, 2008 13:17:16 | Ok so Mass Lesser Vigor is actually in CD. SO that is taken care of. I looked at Bone Knight, and while nifty for a necromancer not really what I want to go with. I am having trouble as it is with the idea of the Undeath domain. Also Soveirgn Speaker, I have not been able to actually locate but just guessing that you would have to worship the Soveriegn Host, which to take Planning, Undeath, or even Time I can not. I am kinda forced to Worship the Dragon Above to get access to the Domains I need to make this feasable. Also not really seeing the goodness of Divine Oracle. I mean I like the idea of getting evasion and and all but just doesn't really do anything else to help. I might as well just buy a ring of Evasion. Is there any way to get access to an extra Domain?? |
| #6chibishuffleMay 11, 2008 13:59:08 | The best way to get access to an extra domain IMO is contemplative from complete divine. |
| #7auxitiusMay 11, 2008 18:00:06 | The best way to get access to an extra domain IMO is contemplative from complete divine. Remember though that Contemplative requires 13 ranks in Knowledge [Religion] to enter the prestige class. |
| #8manic_manMay 11, 2008 18:28:38 | Is there any way to get access to an extra Domain?? Contemplative 1: Bonus domain (Any) Ordained Champion 1: Bonus domain (War or Any if War already taken) Warpriest 1: Bonus domain (Glory or Domination) Dracolyte 1: Bonus domain (Glory or Domination) Church Inquisitor 1: Inquisition domain Divine Oracle 1: Oracle domain Sovereign Speaker 1: Bonus domain (Any) |
| #9tdsaw111May 11, 2008 18:37:15 | I do like Contemplative, however being in Ebberon, and worshipping The Dragon Above, I don't really see how I am going to meet a direct representative of my diety, whom is destroyed, and it is the remnants of their power scattered through the realm that I am actually drawing off.Any way to get around that and I would be a happy camper. I suppose that since Dragons in general are descendant of Syberus than perhaps meeting a dragon could be figured to count. Especially one that is a follower of the Draconic Prophecy. Yes? No? Too far out there? I really do like the Contemplative, and the Hierophant. Both are thematically good, have good abilities, and if I can convince my DM to let me say I was taught the ways of a Cleric by a Dragon, whom is a follower of the Draconic Prophecy, and hence a representative of Syberus, than I could get in. Unfortunately that is at level 11 at earliest. Hierophant I think is level 12 or 15 if I remember correctly. I am strongly considering that Time is a much better domain, and am strongly considering taking that in the place of Undeath. Yes Undeath does help push out the persist but I have no domain spells I will be casting regularly so that comes down to effectively losing a spell each level each day. Not really worth the extra turning attempts in my opinion. |
| #10ChristopherGrovesMay 11, 2008 18:46:01 | Is there any way to get access to an extra Domain?? The easiest way to get access to 9 domains is Sovereign Speaker ;) |
| #11aftercrescentMay 11, 2008 19:32:45 | Sovereign Speaker is from Faiths of Eberron. Another idea: Don't worship a deity. Worship yourself. And create your own motto/belief structure. Then you can use your own domains, that you pick. Another easy option for qualifying for Contemplative is meeting someone that exemplifies an alignment. If you are LE, meet a devil. Bam. Problem solved. I understand the allure of Heirophant, but no. It loses 5 levels of casting. A dip into it may be acceptable in certain builds, but in general, No. Contemplative 1 is nice. Divine Oracle 3 is nice. Remember, it's not evasion. It works in ANY armor (again, more useful for standard clerics). If you can get spell compendium, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful is strictly better than haste, IMO. |
| #12auxitiusMay 11, 2008 20:07:27 | I do like Contemplative, however being in Ebberon, and worshipping The Dragon Above, I don't really see how I am going to meet a direct representative of my diety, whom is destroyed, and it is the remnants of their power scattered through the realm that I am actually drawing off.Any way to get around that and I would be a happy camper. I suppose that since Dragons in general are descendant of Syberus than perhaps meeting a dragon could be figured to count. Especially one that is a follower of the Draconic Prophecy. Yes? No? Too far out there? A big enough Dragonshard perhaps? :P Seriously, it depends on your DM how well it will fly. |
| #13tdsaw111May 11, 2008 21:12:39 | Sovereign Speaker is from Faiths of Eberron. Ebberon has specific rules for clerics. You must worship either a deity listed, or The Dragon Above, or The Dragon Below. The Dragon Above, allows access to any domain you want, essentially like being a Cleric of an ideal in any other setting. So, I can not worship myself or an ideal. Anyway, I forgot about the beig that exemplifies the alignment of your deity. However I can not find an alignment for The Dragon Above. I would lean toward NG, but that is merely from reading what fluff I could find. However Ebberon does give me the niftyness of not having to worry so much about alignment, as spell descriptors such as good/evil, tend not to have as much impact. And Clerics are not required to be of an alignment even similar to their deity. Perhaps, I can convince my DM, that meeting a significantly powerful being of a like alignment to myself, should count. The Dragonshard idea could be doable. |
| #14aftercrescentMay 11, 2008 22:07:12 | "Or with an enlightened being embodying the highest principles of an alignment (a solar, for example)." It doesn't have to be the Dragon Above's alignment. Or your alignment. Just an embodiment of an alignment. Talk to you DM though, because some could argue that animals are the embodiment of Neutral and Undead the embodiment of evil. All very simple qualifications to meet. Plus by 10th level you can plane shift, so that solves that problem as well. Meet an elemental or something. Whatever. Honestly, What do you want the cleric to do? That's very important. And "use DMM" is not a response. Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 4/Divine Oracle 2/Bone Knight 10/Contemplative 1 (not necessarily in that order) Can be a rocking powerhouse at whatever you want in Eberron. |
| #15manic_manMay 12, 2008 3:28:06 | Perhaps, I can convince my DM, that meeting a significantly powerful being of a like alignment to myself, should count. The Dragonshard idea could be doable. The fastest way to qualify is to summon a planar being of the same alignment as the deity. Its easier than its sounds because of lesser planar ally. Just point to its alignment subtype as evidence that it "embodying the highest principles of an alignment" |
| #16tdsaw111May 12, 2008 5:16:01 | Basically I want the cleric to be a support role. Hence taking the Cloistered Cleric. I wanted access to the knowledges so as to support the group. My group seldom focuses on things of that nature. For example, recently go our asses handed to use because no one had any knowledge (nature), to identify a Troll, or it's weakness. Ended up spending insane amounts of time hacking it, having it come back, etc. Fight would have been over in a lost less time, had we figured that out. Same situation different knowledge when dealing with a Bodak. With Assassin Vines. So basically I want him to e the font of knowledge, and to be able to really back the party with buffs. From what I can see, the best way to do that is DMM. I also figure that if I make him less threatening, then the DMM is not as broken. I am going to really look into Contemplative. Seems my best option for now. |
| #17ChristopherGrovesMay 12, 2008 7:36:45 | Faits of Eberron, Sovereign Speaker. Made of awesome. |
| #18aftercrescentMay 12, 2008 13:07:39 | Basically I want the cleric to be a support role. Hence taking the Cloistered Cleric. This is not good logic. Cleric can play a support role just as well as a cloistered cleric can. I wanted access to the knowledges so as to support the group. My group seldom focuses on things of that nature. For example, recently go our asses handed to use because no one had any knowledge (nature), to identify a Troll, or it's weakness. Ended up spending insane amounts of time hacking it, having it come back, etc. Fight would have been over in a lost less time, had we figured that out. Same situation different knowledge when dealing with a Bodak. With Assassin Vines. So basically I want him to e the font of knowledge, This is an okay reason to take cloistered cleric, although you can easily do this without it. Think about this. Cleric with that 15 in Int. Add the knowledge domain and be human and you can cover any Knowledge skill that can identify a monster. Problem solved. And now you can wear heavy armor and actually take a hit. Why is this a good idea? Becuase if you want to play the support role, you may need to be in the midst of melee, supporting the melee combatants. Being way the [beep] in the back won't help you play a support role. and to be able to really back the party with buffs. From what I can see, the best way to do that is DMM. This is incredibly true. However, DMM without nightsticks or items can get you really only 4-5 MAX! persisted buffs, and that's at high levels. As you can clearly see, that's 1/2 a minute in the morning, then what do you do? As a Cloistered Cleric, it'll be harder for you to take a hit, so being in combat, provided those comfy round/level touch spell buffs will be much more life threatening for you, as well. You need to think about the rest of the day, not just the persisting. This is why, in this case, being a Cleric 3/Church Inq 4/Divine Oracle 2/Sovereign Speaker10 (or Bone Knight10)/Contemplative will give you at least 2 of your self selected domains. I'd pick planning and undeath and go bone knight, but that's only 1 option. Sovereign Speaker is a VERY nice prestige class with good domain choices, and a nice spell list that can provide good support. I also figure that if I make him less threatening, then the DMM is not as broken. I am going to really look into Contemplative. Seems my best option for now. DMM is not broken. Nope. Never has been, never will be. As long as people actually read it and understand it and don't pull out cheese like stacking nightsticks, it's functional. Contemplative is a good option, at level 11. You most assuredly should PrC out of Cleric before then, though. |
| #19tdsaw111May 12, 2008 19:00:46 | Ok, so I am going to go back over it all tonight and try to figure out the best route to go. I must say the main thing I love about CC is the skill boost. It is just ridiculous that a Cleric gets only 2+Int. Especially since you are basically required to take at least a few ranks in Concentration, Know. Religion, and Spellcraft. There are all the skills for a Human Cleric with out an Int Bonus. The only other problem I run into with the build you suggest is that I have no means of getting Planning with this build until level 11 when I eventually take Contemplative. Church Inquisitor only gives me the Inquisition domain, Divine Oracle gives me the Oracle Domain, and while Soveirgn Speaker gives me a hell of a lot of domains, none are Undeath, or Planning. That means I will have to try to cram Extend Spell into an already over crowded feat list, just to be able to get to persist. Which means I will lose one Extra Turning, which will drop me down to only a single persisted spell a day. Not exactly great for what I am going for. Great for a general Cleric build, as it gives a ton of power, but really hinders DMM Persist. With that build I would have to go something like this Feat wise: H: Extend Spell 1: Persist 3: DMM Pursist 6: Wordly Focus (required to get into Sovereign Speaker) This means I get to persist 1 spell a day. And it would be at least 15th level before I can Persist another one. |
| #20ChristopherGrovesMay 12, 2008 20:44:47 | Hmm. Are items restricted? Nightsticks, CHA boosters, Reliquary Holy Symbols? |
| #21aelryinthMay 12, 2008 21:04:22 | He already noted that they are not being allowed. And as you've seen, Persistent Spell isn't broken unless you've unlimited amounts of turning attempts. Ignore that stuff, and 1 or 2 Persistent spells is basically saving you a combat buff or a permanent magic item, while at the same time leaving you way down if you get Dispelled. Also note, most clerics use Persist Spell for combat buffs, and most cleric PrC's have medium BRB. Start taking a bunch of PrC's and your BAB stays in the toilet, practically forcing you to Persist Divine Might to be decent in a fight. As for a representative of Siberys, run into a couatl! They are the Children of Siberys. ===Aelryinth |
| #22aftercrescentMay 13, 2008 1:27:15 | I see no reason why one of your domains cannot be Planning and/or Undeath. While they may not work with sovereign speaker, they'd work well with a number of other PrC. That was just an example. And as Aelryinth pointed out, Persist is at most a moderate buff method. Especially with your restrictions. Have you considered the DMM Quicken route? It's fairly effective. And works well if you wanted to go a RKV route. Another option is to continue CC and focus on ranged support. Be an archer and use DMM Reach, etc. Lots of options with DMM. :D |
| #23tdsaw111May 13, 2008 5:10:14 | Worshipping the Dragon Above I can take the domains I want, it is worshiping the Sovereign Host that loses me the domains. I have been considering other options than persist. Does anyone know if you can split ray a reach spelled spell? For example, I cast a Reach Spelled Bull's Strength, can I Split Ray the spell to hit 2 fighter types, effectively getting a 2for1 or does this not work? What about Chain Spell? |