Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 elondir Jun 10, 2009 14:16:19	I have an idea. Let's take various builds and apply Upper Krust's CR Revision system to them like Pun Pun received here. This would sort of index all the CO builds out there by a uniform power level system. Simply put, IT'S OVER 9000!!!!! State which revision of the CR was used for each build. I would post raw ECL, golden rule ECL, recursive golden rule ECL (described in the link), silver rule ECL, CR (~2/3 of ECL), and finally EL. Here's Pun Pun and the hulking hurler's (using values stated in the link):
#2 phaedrusxy Jun 10, 2009 14:18:33	I'm not going to bother clicking the link because anything that rates the Hulking Hurler higher than Pun-Pun is obviously not working properly.
#3 elondir Jun 10, 2009 14:28:23	It states that hulking hurler's EL does not apply to divine beings, nor anyone who can deflect arrows. Also, Pun Pun is going to be roasted by anything in the CR 400 range, let alone the 24000 range.
#4 BloodDragon Jun 10, 2009 14:35:31	It states that hulking hurler's EL does not apply to divine beings, nor anyone who can deflect arrows. Also, Pun Pun is going to be roasted by anything in the CR 400 range, let alone the 24000 range. Excuse me?
#5 sofawall Jun 10, 2009 14:37:31	What do you mean Pun-Pun will lose to a CR 400? Do you know what Pun-Pun is? Lord of NI? The unkillable? Higher stats than anything? How could he possibly lose?
#6 flawless_p Jun 10, 2009 14:57:17	What do you mean Pun-Pun will lose to a CR 400? Do you know what Pun-Pun is? Lord of NI? The unkillable? Higher stats than anything? How could he possibly lose? Pun-Pun = My lord an Savior.... Also known as my plot device character akin to Q from star trek. Most useful tool in game to give the DM a face so to speak.
#7 Senevri Jun 10, 2009 15:08:40	Isn't the HD for Pun-pun totally wrong there, too? It should be either NI or infinite, not sure which, which would affect the CR calculations. Even if you go by initial HD, then it should be 1. Also, failure in logic - PP HAS all of Hulking Hurler's capabilities. In fact, by Splitting or cloning and with sufficient psychirurgery to tone down the stats, PP can GENERATE NI Hurlers per round. On anyone's turn, as an immediate action, what with it's EX(anticipatory strike) and EX(time stop), EX(temporal acceleration) capabilities. There was a thread a while back with PP vs. some insane monstrosity, and the arguments basically hinged on not allowing PP access to the same rules as the other guy was using. Not to mention that this all is with a toned-down PP, possessing only every published ability, instead of the true PP with the following ability: I win(ex) Pun-pun wins. As in "They have a fight, Pun-pun wins." I admit, I'm curious: How would 1d2 Crusader rate? Or a, if necessary, epic, 1d2 Chuck build? Punch everyone on the sphere in the face for truly infinite damage? That gotta hurt... (keeping in mind, PP has these abilities, too.)
#8 sofawall Jun 10, 2009 15:12:24	Pun-Pun's HD is NI. This means his CR is NI as well. And that's ignoring everything else he can do.
#9 jgumbyrx Jun 10, 2009 15:15:39	It states that hulking hurler's EL does not apply to divine beings, nor anyone who can deflect arrows. Also, Pun Pun is going to be roasted by anything in the CR 400 range, let alone the 24000 range. I don't think you quite realize what you just did, or the can of worms that just got opened. I recommend you pray forgiveness to the gods of CO, and lay forth a great sacrificial offering.
#10 bomaz Jun 10, 2009 15:18:14	It states that hulking hurler's EL does not apply to divine beings, nor anyone who can deflect arrows. Also, Pun Pun is going to be roasted by anything in the CR 400 range, let alone the 24000 range. please elaborate as to what can do infinite dmg as that is the hp of PP. what can penetrate the "none except that one can harm you at all" ability when it is possesed twice by the same character directed at 2 different persons what can do damage that he has no immunity to cover? what can evade his infinite reach etc...
#11 jameswilliamogle Jun 10, 2009 15:21:48	more of the above expressed by me as well.
#12 elondir Jun 10, 2009 15:39:41	Here's a quote from the above link Pun Pun Just for fun, I thought I'd calculate Pun Pun's CR according to Ascension. OMNIFIC ABILITIES Arbitrary [Ability Score] x6 Indissoluble Omniparity TRANSCENDANT ABILITIES Transilient [Saving Throw] x3 Transversal Superluminal COSMIC ABILITIES Cosmic Consciousness DIVINE ABILITIES Alter Reality Maven Omnicompetent 11502 feat slots needed thus, 34506 HD 36423 ECL (+1 LA for each divine ability) 24282 CR He hardly looks broken at all when you put it like this, y'know? I mean, he doesn't even have Learned Opponent Immunity! Heck, even the CharOp people know he doesn't have Transtemporal, or even Slipstream for that matter... and he completely lacks even Cosmic String! Heck... he doesn't even actually have infinite constitution or HD, just arbitrarily high. Yeah, he's got actually infinite saves, but who cares? Ouroborus, a mere ECL 408 being could easily take Pun Pun out what with transtemporal allowing Pun Pun to take NO ACTIONS while Ouroborus gets as many actions as he wants... Obviously, Pun Pun is a very suboptimal build for his ECL. Tsk tsk. As a side note, by v5 of the Challenge Rating PDF, the Hulking Hurler would be roughly CR 392 billion due to damage capacity. This CR obviously would not apply versus any deity, and almost anything can kill the Hurler if initiative is won anyway. Okay, so PP has all the HH's abilities. I also miscalculated Pun Pun's recursive CR. Nevermind then.
#13 Senevri Jun 10, 2009 15:40:57	Working from memory, there are these cosmic-something and omni-something things that give things kooky timeline/timetravel abilities, which also have clauses like "anyone having similar ability but not being omnicosmic thingy loses so nyah" or something like that. Except, it doesn't work within the actual game mechanic, at all. Except part 2, these abilities were accessible via FEATS... there's some sort of caveat clause about how you'd normally need to fulfill some sort of storyline prerequisite to access them. I believe Manipulate Form should circumvent that. The opposing argument was, roughly condensed, "You can't do that!" Yeah. The above completely misses the fact that PP has ALL the abilities of every build ever posted on these boards. PP has a better chassis than HH, and can spawn NI completely loyal damage-immune clones of HH as an immediate action. So how can anyone possibly reason it has a smaller CR? Also, that's so old that it's from when PP only had NI stats instead of truly infinite. *sigh* People also focus on the ascension method not realizing that the moment PP ascends the entire accessible multiverse changes due to PP being miffed about the fact he wasn't involved in the creation of universe, so he travelled back to the beginning of time and caused the big bang, seeding every single atom with it's will.... Er, that is, "Travelled back to the beginning of time and has since watched over everything to assert that nothing could possibly threaten his existance." *edit* Aha, the above calculation is effectively "What is the minimum HD for PP when we want to access the abilities I remember him having, according to these 3p rules?" It's... missing a bit, if using that method. How many HD is three times every single published WotC feat? About that much, at least.
#14 bomaz Jun 10, 2009 15:47:38	I don't think you understand PP then. He has ALL the abilities. natural, supernatural, extraordinary, Spell-like etc. all of them If you think there is something he doesn't have then you misread.
#15 Senevri Jun 10, 2009 15:57:46	Nah, elondir is just using Fieari's erraneous assessment of PP's capabilities. Besides, PP doesn't, for the most part, have spell-like abilities. He has spell-likes as extraordinary abilities. I mean, he could have them as described, but why? That being said, calculating the ECLs of OTHERS besides PP using that system might be... less of an exercise in futility.
#16 awaken_D_M_golem Jun 10, 2009 18:14:45	Somebody failed their Knowledge (Pun-pun) check ... anyways ** Regardless of when the CR system breaks down, or doesn't work at all, it does provide a useful idea or two. There's about a 10 to 12 level spread between Un-win-able and Un-lose-able. But that's before CO shows up. Somebody gets ahold of infinite Wishes. Somebody else gets ahold of infinite Wishes. Who wins? I guess the Tier system / idea , applies here. Tier Zero might be anything that gets Tier 1 stuff early. The Beat the Gods thread, also applies here. If a god has that certain SDA, non-gods can't beat them. How does the CO-board go about figuring how strong, some of it's creations are, relative to each other ??
#17 sofawall Jun 10, 2009 22:35:30	How does the CO-board go about figuring how strong, some of it's creations are, relative to each other ?? It used to be "Who goes infinite first?" but Pun-Pun won that one.
#18 Senevri Jun 11, 2009 4:34:48	Versatility>one trick, high init>>>low init, negation>resistance, bigger numbers>smaller numbers. That gives us a rating from 1-4 at least. Oh and simple>questionable, too.
#19 phaedrusxy Jun 11, 2009 13:16:14	Oh so this is using that made-up BS system that isn't even recognizable as D&D anymore, and evaluating Pun-Pun based on that. Now I see where you're coming from. As written, and as already stated, Manipulate Form can give Pun-Pun any of the made-up BS in that system, as well, if he is used in that system.