Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 uhm_hoi Mar 10, 2009 6:49:46	Hi everybody, A friend of mine, who is currently playing in a campaign im running is working on a campaign himself. He wants us to start at ~lvl7 and basically for character creation anything goes. For scores we start with the elite array. The only trick is, there are no normal races. There is just 1 race and they have no racial abilities at all. Instead you can get bonusses from gods you chose to worship. Thats a pretty fun idea, IF he would tell us what those bonusses be, but he doesnt. Knowing the DM and his paranoia about us making overpowered characters it will be bonusses like -6 wis and +6 cha after youve rolled up a cleric and -6 con and +6 wis for a barbarian. Also, playing without worshipping a deity is not an option since it will annoy npc's (apparently the cant get very very angry on these boards, they would feel like little stars instead) and there are no npc's and deities protecting us if we choose not to worship anything. At first me and at least 2 other guys just wanted to play fun roleplaying characters, but after hearing this, i want to min/max my char as much as possible. So here is the chalenge (or chalenges): Can you make an optimized big stupid fighter who is only proficient with light armor, simple weapons and has -6 con as racial "bonus"? Can you make an optimized rogue-like character with -4 dex, -4 cha and an armor check penalty thats always atleast -5? Can you make an optimized divine spellcaster or something that fights and heals with a -4 on stength and wisdom? Can you make an optimized arcane spellcaster with a -6 on int or cha (depending on whether you cast your spells with int or cha)? For ability scores you can use the elite array. Templates and psionics are not allowed (he still thinks its overpowered... i told him he could play a scion in my campaign to test it but he didnt) and you can use classes/feats/things from the following books: Players Handbook Players Handbook2 Dungeon Master Guide Dungeon Master Guide2 Monster Manual 1-5 Complete Adventurer Complete Arcane Complete Champion Complete Divine Complete Mage Complete Scoundrel Complete Warrior Races of Destiny Races of Stone Races of the Dragon Races of the Wild Book of Exalted Deeds Cityscape Draconomicon Dragon Magic Drow of the Underdark Dungeonscape Elder Evils Exampars of Evil Frostburn Heroes of Battle Heroes of Horror Libris Mortis Lords of Madness Magic Item Compendium Magic of Incarnum Miniatures Handbook Planar Handbook Sandstorm Tome of battle Tome of Magic Unearthed Arcana
#2 jameswilliamogle Mar 10, 2009 6:56:27	Can you make an optimized big stupid fighter who is only proficient with light armor, light weapons and has -6 con as racial "bonus"? Can you make an optimized rogue-like character with -4 dex, -4 cha and an armor check penalty thats always atleast -5? Can you make an optimized divine spellcaster or something that fights and heals with a -4 on stength and wisdom? Can you make an optimized arcane spellcaster with a -6 on int or cha (depending on whether you cast your spells with int or cha)? Yes to all.
#3 uhm_hoi Mar 10, 2009 7:14:42	Prove it :P
#4 lormador Mar 10, 2009 7:21:55	For the fighter, you could start play with a 'low Con score' and then get yourself Necropolitanized. If you can be Desecrated it's not that bad. If the DM is going to try to play the nerf game with your stats to such an extreme extent, you could start play as one class and multiclass out at next level. Ur-Priest, for example, on top of a character who did not appear to be relying on Wisdom at all.
#5 jameswilliamogle Mar 10, 2009 7:31:47	Prove it :P No need. Search "Some Handy Links for Optimization Work" for optimizing low scores. Done. Main trick is to start one way then play to something else.
#6 uhm_hoi Mar 10, 2009 7:33:29	For the fighter, you could start play with a 'low Con score' and then get yourself Necropolitanized. If you can be Desecrated it's not that bad. If the DM is going to try to play the nerf game with your stats to such an extreme extent, you could start play as one class and multiclass out at next level. Ur-Priest, for example, on top of a character who did not appear to be relying on Wisdom at all. I cant play as a necropolitan since it counts as a template (besides im already gonna playing 1 in another campaign). The Ur-Priest is a very good idea though. Especially because your caster level is the Ur-Priest Class lvl + 1/2 your other spellcasting class lvls, which dont even have to be divine. Tnx, this is a very good idea. Are there more classes like this? I know of a barbarian prestige class that could cast divine spells, but i think it was in a setting specific book.
#7 thedragonmaster Mar 10, 2009 7:55:36	Well, both Sublime Chord and Beholder Mage would work if you start them with other things than casting of their attributs, but BM is going to be hard to pull quickly without psionics.
#8 hogarth Mar 10, 2009 8:13:39	I'm not totally clear on your DM's concept. Are you saying that if you were a fighter who worshipped the god of war (say), that would somehow penalize you in terms of warrior-type stats like Str and Con? Either (a) your DM's alignment is Chaotic Stupid or (b) you're grossly exaggerating the situation. I suspect "(b)". Maybe a swordsage would work: if your Str gets nerfed, focus on Dex-based damage or damage based on Concentration checks.
#9 ninjarabbit Mar 10, 2009 8:23:38	Hi everybody, So here is the chalenge (or chalenges): Can you make an optimized big stupid fighter who is only proficient with light armor, simple weapons and has -6 con as racial "bonus"? Can you make an optimized rogue-like character with -4 dex, -4 cha and an armor check penalty thats always atleast -5? Can you make an optimized divine spellcaster or something that fights and heals with a -4 on stength and wisdom? Can you make an optimized arcane spellcaster with a -6 on int or cha (depending on whether you cast your spells with int or cha)? Swashbuckler, beguiler in heavy armor, favored soul, cleric with spell and magic domains
#10 uhm_hoi Mar 10, 2009 8:37:21	I'm not totally clear on your DM's concept. Are you saying that if you were a fighter who worshipped the god of war (say), that would somehow penalize you in terms of warrior-type stats like Str and Con? Either (a) your DM's alignment is Chaotic Stupid or (b) you're grossly exaggerating the situation. I suspect "(b)". Well he is not going to use the standard dnd gods, so instead of the god of war there is a god of craftmanship and instead of a god of magic you could take the god of chaos, stuff like that. And i dont know the bonusses yet. All i know is that the dm will try to nerf our characters a lot and he is going to use this to do it. I'm just thinking about the worst he could do with nerfing characters through racial "bonusses" and ways i could get around the nerfing.
#11 Grumman Mar 10, 2009 8:45:36	Play a min/maxed Ur-Priest and brutally murder any NPC who disapproves of your lack of piety. Take Swift Concentration and an Eternal Wand of Detect Thoughts to assist in this process.
#12 jameswilliamogle Mar 10, 2009 9:37:20	Well he is not going to use the standard dnd gods, so instead of the god of war there is a god of craftmanship and instead of a god of magic you could take the god of chaos, stuff like that. And i dont know the bonusses yet. All i know is that the dm will try to nerf our characters a lot and he is going to use this to do it. I'm just thinking about the worst he could do with nerfing characters through racial "bonusses" and ways i could get around the nerfing. "The devil is in the details..."
#13 hogarth Mar 10, 2009 11:38:34	Well he is not going to use the standard dnd gods, so instead of the god of war there is a god of craftmanship and instead of a god of magic you could take the god of chaos, stuff like that. Still, I'd be willing to go out on a limb and say that worshiping the god of craftmanship wouldn't give you a -6 bonus to Int, unless your DM is really messed up. Or maybe he's the god of shoddy craftmanship.
#14 tytalus Mar 10, 2009 11:41:18	The fun mental exercise to optimize characters under such conditions aside, I would strongly suggest to pass on a heavily nerfed campaign.
#15 phaedrusxy Mar 10, 2009 11:49:26	My advice is to find a new DM.
#16 jameswilliamogle Mar 10, 2009 12:22:49	My advice is to find a new DM. +1
#17 uhm_hoi Mar 10, 2009 13:37:26	My advice is to find a new DM. The DM is a close friend of me and he's put a lot of work in his campaign. Im not gonna tell him i dont want to play because he's making character creation harder. I guess im gonna go with the Ur-Priest. I can make it look like im making a gish while im getting all te prereqs. It would also be funny as hell in that campaign, since religion is that important.
#18 true_shinken Mar 10, 2009 15:41:32	The DM is a close friend of me and he's put a lot of work in his campaign. Im not gonna tell him i dont want to play because he's making character creation harder. I guess im gonna go with the Ur-Priest. I can make it look like im making a gish while im getting all te prereqs. It would also be funny as hell in that campaign, since religion is that important. Wait, if you are going to play an Ur-Priest the whole 'I can't bypass his guidelines for worshipping deities' point is moot since Ur-Priests are completly against worshipping deities to start with. You could also play a Defiant (Planar Handbook). Start as a Cleric, say "Geez, your nerfed me, you stupid god? OK, I DEFY YOU!" and trade your levels for Defiant. You can even go into Ur-Priest later. Of course, this way you would totally bypass his 'non-atheist' guideline and all os his npcs would kick your ass.
#19 phaedrusxy Mar 10, 2009 16:30:57	The DM is a close friend of me and he's put a lot of work in his campaign. Im not gonna tell him i dont want to play because he's making character creation harder. The only having one race business, and having to worship a god isn't a big deal. This is the part that I'd complain about: Knowing the DM and his paranoia about us making overpowered characters it will be bonusses like -6 wis and +6 cha after youve rolled up a cleric and -6 con and +6 wis for a barbarian. That's not character creation. That's him messing with your characters after character creation. If he actually does stuff like this, and he's your friend, tell him to stop being a douche. This is going beyond "not being nice" to "being a freakin' jerk" in my book. You can be friends with someone and not play in their D&D games, also. I used to play with one guy who was a terrible DM, but always wanted to DM. We eventually just quit playing in his games entirely. We were all still friends, though.
#20 sofawall Mar 10, 2009 21:00:28	Try having all party members worship the same god, unless he just penalizes stats with no bonuses, it's bound to benefit someone, and even with stupid penalties, someone is bound to come out ok. If you all worship different gods, however, he can tailor each one to make each of you suck.
#21 arogenith Mar 10, 2009 22:26:10	Everyone takes a different god, and then simotaniously convert eachother to the god that "actually" benefits them. Just get everyone to max bluff and/or diplomacy, and take 0 ranks in sense motive, then max that out at level 2 if you really want it, and to protect against NPCs converting you
#22 sofawall Mar 10, 2009 22:59:50	Then the DM gets mad, says the new god dislikes your flighty attitude, and smacks with that god's penalty, while taking away the old god's bonus. Oh, and leaving the old god's penalty as well. Anyway, like most people here, my advise is to do something misleading, or that could go in many ways.
#23 thedragonmaster Mar 11, 2009 5:31:21	Swordsage is a good idea, as is monk, as well as other equally MAD classes. He can't nerf it all with just ability scores ^^, at least not in my book.
#24 jameswilliamogle Mar 11, 2009 6:46:33	Swordsage is a good idea, as is monk, as well as other equally MAD classes. He can't nerf it all with just ability scores ^^, at least not in my book. This was my thinking, too. For example, if you start out as a Barbarian, and he nerfs Str and Con. Well, then multiclass into Swordsage, then start working on Dex-based abilities, maybe adding Int into the mix w/ Swashbuckler 3. Eventually going Monk for more non-Str non-Con synergy would be OK, too (although you have alignment issues with it). The Whirling Frenzy UA variant works well with this. Or, Barbarian 1 / Druid 19, for example - Raging while Wildshaped is nice . The single-stat casters are a bit screwed, but even then, the Void Disciple (CDivine) gets a strong ability to convert one stat to another eventually, so aiming for that PrC might be worth it. Its all about misdirection :D.
#25 keithio Mar 11, 2009 7:56:09	I agree with starting as barbarian. Can branch out into a gish from there.
#26 sofawall Mar 11, 2009 21:03:55	Whatever you do, do NOT start as a what you want to be. If you want to be a caster, start barbarian. A barbarian, start wizard. (what barb wants int?)
#27 taerg_nor Mar 13, 2009 0:41:45	Try having all party members worship the same god, unless he just penalizes stats with no bonuses, it's bound to benefit someone, and even with stupid penalties, someone is bound to come out ok. If you all worship different gods, however, he can tailor each one to make each of you suck. +1
#28 sofawall Mar 13, 2009 0:53:13	+1 I've had experience with tricky (read: scared of optimizing) DMs.
#29 unundindur Mar 13, 2009 1:10:52	Warblade is a nice start, as he can use a bit of intelligence too (in additon to have a great "chassis". Maybe work with somethign that doesn't need to much stats at all? I mean, with the elite array, a -6 penalty in your main stat takes it down to...9, so a wizard with -6 int cannot cast spells anymore. First, I doubt your GM does this, cause that is just beyond studid and weird. Do we have any classes that are mainly independant on stats? Hmm... Tome of battle does pretty well, since they have no lower stat limit for their maneuvers. Secondly, they are versatile, and can change focus rather easily. Factotum is another choice. Versatile, and based on inspiration (which is largely not affected). Warblade/Factotum? Maybe not a super powerhouse, but at least it will be playable no matter which stat your GM burns.
#30 darksamuari Mar 13, 2009 1:49:07	Do we have any classes that are mainly independant on stats? Warlock & DragonFire Adept can function well enough without stats. DFA desire con (dex/cha for Warlocks), but can get by without it.
#31 unundindur Mar 13, 2009 3:50:01	Warlock & DragonFire Adept can function well enough without stats. DFA desire con (dex/cha for Warlocks), but can get by without it. good point.
#32 headofvecna Mar 13, 2009 13:43:44	I would strongly suggest referring your DM to the CO boards or perhaps the Brilliant Gameologists boards. Everyone will be happier if he receives good advice on how to address game balance that are +fun rather than douchey. And just finding a way to work around the random deity nerf is likely to cause a further overreaction.