CO Challenge and Campaign Help - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

CO Challenge and Campaign Help

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
jetstrike3000
Apr 16, 2009 3:47:02 Okay so I have a planned encounter for my PC's once they reach 18th level..... The challenge is to build a lich that can kill 4 optimized lvl 18pcs the lich can have at most 30 class levels the expected party is an arcane user a cleric a fighter and a rogue..... atleast thats the baseline... All books allowed
#2
Senevri
Apr 16, 2009 4:26:10 A CR 34 vs. a party of 18s? And you intend to kill?

Last time I built an opponent not even that high, I specifically focused on cornering the players, not killing their characters.

Never-the-less, if you're not going to use epic spells,
- improved spell capacity
- multispell
- improved metamagic.

A Mailman build might be appropriate. A planarSorc 5 could make spells half-force, and Complete Champion has something that can make fire damage untyped.
Of course, by the simple expenditure of Improved Spell Capacityx3, you get access to, say, a 64d6x64 rounds twinned Maw of Chaos... although I think some of the "wings of..." spells are also uncapped...

Of course, you can also employ GOD tactics if you want - put the players into a little box, summon a couple of fiendish reds, and make yourself scarce after letting them out of the box.

Also, if you dig to my signature, under other junk -> other threads-> WIP epic BBEG, there's the wizard I used for antagonizing my players, although specifically built not to be TOO nasty. If you add one more wiz level to it and add the lich template, you might be quite close to what you want.. or trade in some levels for archmage.
#3
carnivore
Apr 16, 2009 5:01:54 since 4 characters of 18th lvl = CR 22 encounter

try this:

CR 22

Lich

Wizard 5/ Mage of the Arcane Order 4/ Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7/ Archmage 4

Feats:
Skill Focus (Spellcraft)(Human Bonus)
Scribe Scroll(Wizard Bonus)
Cooperative Spell(Wizard Bonus)
Greater Spell Focus (abjuration)(MoAO bonus)

1st lvl: Spell Focus (abjuration)
3rd lvl: Spell Focus(Illusion)
6th lvl: Corpsecrafter
9th lvl: Destructive Retribution
12th lvl: Arcane Strike
15th lvl: Necromatic Presence
18th lvl: Necromatic Might

should be fun ... simple, make lots of (Very Strong)Undead minions

:D
#4
Grumman
Apr 16, 2009 7:10:49
Okay so I have a planned encounter for my PC's once they reach 18th level..... The challenge is to build a lich that can kill 4 optimized lvl 18pcs the lich can have at most 30 class levels the expected party is an arcane user a cleric a fighter and a rogue..... atleast thats the baseline... All books allowed

What is your goal in this? Whatever it is, I'd seriously reconsider, since causing a near-guaranteed TPK by DM fiat is just going to **** them off.
#5
reis
Apr 16, 2009 7:19:15 maybe its like in that classic ravenloft adventure, "from the shadows", where when you die that is just the beginning of the adventure.
#6
dr_rocktopus
Apr 16, 2009 9:51:37 Oh man! Brilliant! Thank you for reminding me, Reis. I have a bunch of players trapped in a planar overlay of ravenloft right now, and I've been struggling with what should happen. I obviously don't want to just wipe them, since this campaign is pushing towards the year + mark, but...

As for liching all over your friends' faces, I do not recommend it. Lich never comes out.
Let me remind you that the last thing I did not recommend involved moon mining. That said, if you wanted a really powerful encounter, I recommend remembering that a lich's motives are completely enigmatic. The older he gets, the more removed from traditional concerns he becomes. Maybe he doesn't kill them because they're actually interesting for a change. Maybe he lets them kill him because his phylactery is in a portable hole, rolled up and tucked away in the depths of a dead deity on the astral. He just comes back over and over, bizarre, nonchalant, powerful, and completely malevolent.
#7
jetstrike3000
Apr 16, 2009 10:14:20 First of all divine spells will allow for pre buff and readiness..... AMF's and Freedom of movement are likely to be used... Trapping the players will not be easy... Counterspells and dispells will be used. The group in previous games have always had a very good pre emptive plan... The party does not discuss their combat plan at the table. So I as the DM will really have no clue but TPK needs to be a real chance as we all agree its not fun if you always win... Sometimes people lose... but anywhos I do appreciate your balance concerns.
#8
sofawall
Apr 16, 2009 23:20:27 Honestly, I see no way for a balanced, even semi-optimized party to take out a level 30 lich. I mean, wizard, incantrix and archmage all fit nicely in there.

Hell, the MotUH with is telekinesis weapon attack thing based on CL would be fin. Massive amounts of swords (or spiked chains) go flying at the enemy, tripping and whacking away.

Oh, I forgot, as for their battle plan, screw them, you're a wizard. Scry & Die, Teleport and return when better prepared, just plain shoot 'em dead. Wizards win.
#9
jetstrike3000
Apr 16, 2009 23:58:31 Thats a good strategy but its also one that can be employed by the party... The Minion master builds seem like an okay idea...
#10
dr_rocktopus
Apr 17, 2009 0:30:09 No. It can't. You know why?

He's a Lich. Ever tried to save-or-die a lich?

Correction, ever tried to kill a lich? One who's not an idiot? Who made it to level 30?
#11
keithio
Apr 17, 2009 1:36:34 If you're really going to be a jerk, at lvl 27 your lich can pick up the epic counterspell feat, which is all sorts of nasty.

Like Carnivore suggested... I would be considering something closer to lvl 20... or 22 tops. 30 class levels optimized and they won't even get an action. You may as well just say "And now you're all dead."
#12
dr_rocktopus
Apr 17, 2009 1:45:01 In fact, at that point, a nice cinematic battle against impossible odds would probably be LESS upsetting.

#13
jameswilliamogle
Apr 17, 2009 6:59:19
No. It can't. You know why?

He's a Lich. Ever tried to save-or-die a lich?

Correction, ever tried to kill a lich? One who's not an idiot? Who made it to level 30?

I'm more afraid of demi-liches at that point. Super-Epic-Quicken-W1n? Insane...
#14
dr_rocktopus
Apr 17, 2009 13:13:36 Demi-liches are absurdly deadly, but at least if you kill them, they have the good graces to stay dead...
#15
carnivore
Apr 17, 2009 14:56:28 an Optomized Undead Turning Cleric Build ECL 20 .... can Vaporize a Demilich.. even one a 30th lvl one

:D
#16
phaedrusxy
Apr 17, 2009 16:16:34
Demi-liches are absurdly deadly, but at least if you kill them, they have the good graces to stay dead...

Umm... you do know that they have phylacteries too, right?
It uses all the lich’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Phylactery Transference (Su)

Headbands, belts, rings, cloaks, and other wearable items kept in close association with the demilich’s phylactery transfer all their benefits to the demilich no matter how far apart the demilich and the phylactery are located. The standard limits on types of items utilized simultaneously still apply.

Except they don't even have to take their Bling with them.

And aren't there ways to make yourself totally immune to Turning? Even if it were vaporized, it would still come back (unlike a vampire destroyed by turning).
#17
dr_rocktopus
Apr 17, 2009 16:23:31 Whoops, wrong canon. In some sets of mythology, demi-liches are basically failed lichs and do not get phylacteries. Doh.
#18
phaedrusxy
Apr 17, 2009 16:29:29 Yeah, demiliches are insanely nasty, and I played in a game once where I "recruited" a cabal of demiliches to help us in a battle. There were nine of them, and they all hovered together in the general shape of a body, and wore robes. They were linked telepathically, could all share each others spells, but got 9 actions per round. That was quite a crazy campaign...

The reaction of the other PCs when I showed up with them was pretty priceless, too. :D (We were "only" about ECL 30, and that thing could have easily wiped the floor with us without breaking a sweat. It aided us in one of those "final battle to save the universe" campaign enders. :P )
#19
jameswilliamogle
Apr 17, 2009 16:46:00
an Optomized Undead Turning Cleric Build ECL 20 .... can Vaporize a Demilich.. even one a 30th lvl one

:D

That may be true... I've not specced either out before. I abhor playing Clerics almost as much as I abhor epic games (my experiences w/ both in 3.5 have been pretty horrible, though).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 jetstrike3000 Apr 16, 2009 3:47:02	Okay so I have a planned encounter for my PC's once they reach 18th level..... The challenge is to build a lich that can kill 4 optimized lvl 18pcs the lich can have at most 30 class levels the expected party is an arcane user a cleric a fighter and a rogue..... atleast thats the baseline... All books allowed
#2 Senevri Apr 16, 2009 4:26:10	A CR 34 vs. a party of 18s? And you intend to kill? Last time I built an opponent not even that high, I specifically focused on cornering the players, not killing their characters. Never-the-less, if you're not going to use epic spells, - improved spell capacity - multispell - improved metamagic. A Mailman build might be appropriate. A planarSorc 5 could make spells half-force, and Complete Champion has something that can make fire damage untyped. Of course, by the simple expenditure of Improved Spell Capacityx3, you get access to, say, a 64d6x64 rounds twinned Maw of Chaos... although I think some of the "wings of..." spells are also uncapped... Of course, you can also employ GOD tactics if you want - put the players into a little box, summon a couple of fiendish reds, and make yourself scarce after letting them out of the box. Also, if you dig to my signature, under other junk -> other threads-> WIP epic BBEG, there's the wizard I used for antagonizing my players, although specifically built not to be TOO nasty. If you add one more wiz level to it and add the lich template, you might be quite close to what you want.. or trade in some levels for archmage.
#3 carnivore Apr 16, 2009 5:01:54	since 4 characters of 18th lvl = CR 22 encounter try this: CR 22 Lich Wizard 5/ Mage of the Arcane Order 4/ Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7/ Archmage 4 Feats: Skill Focus (Spellcraft)(Human Bonus) Scribe Scroll(Wizard Bonus) Cooperative Spell(Wizard Bonus) Greater Spell Focus (abjuration)(MoAO bonus) 1st lvl: Spell Focus (abjuration) 3rd lvl: Spell Focus(Illusion) 6th lvl: Corpsecrafter 9th lvl: Destructive Retribution 12th lvl: Arcane Strike 15th lvl: Necromatic Presence 18th lvl: Necromatic Might should be fun ... simple, make lots of (Very Strong)Undead minions :D
#4 Grumman Apr 16, 2009 7:10:49	Okay so I have a planned encounter for my PC's once they reach 18th level..... The challenge is to build a lich that can kill 4 optimized lvl 18pcs the lich can have at most 30 class levels the expected party is an arcane user a cleric a fighter and a rogue..... atleast thats the baseline... All books allowed What is your goal in this? Whatever it is, I'd seriously reconsider, since causing a near-guaranteed TPK by DM fiat is just going to **** them off.
#5 reis Apr 16, 2009 7:19:15	maybe its like in that classic ravenloft adventure, "from the shadows", where when you die that is just the beginning of the adventure.
#6 dr_rocktopus Apr 16, 2009 9:51:37	Oh man! Brilliant! Thank you for reminding me, Reis. I have a bunch of players trapped in a planar overlay of ravenloft right now, and I've been struggling with what should happen. I obviously don't want to just wipe them, since this campaign is pushing towards the year + mark, but... As for liching all over your friends' faces, I do not recommend it. Lich never comes out. Let me remind you that the last thing I did not recommend involved moon mining. That said, if you wanted a really powerful encounter, I recommend remembering that a lich's motives are completely enigmatic. The older he gets, the more removed from traditional concerns he becomes. Maybe he doesn't kill them because they're actually interesting for a change. Maybe he lets them kill him because his phylactery is in a portable hole, rolled up and tucked away in the depths of a dead deity on the astral. He just comes back over and over, bizarre, nonchalant, powerful, and completely malevolent.
#7 jetstrike3000 Apr 16, 2009 10:14:20	First of all divine spells will allow for pre buff and readiness..... AMF's and Freedom of movement are likely to be used... Trapping the players will not be easy... Counterspells and dispells will be used. The group in previous games have always had a very good pre emptive plan... The party does not discuss their combat plan at the table. So I as the DM will really have no clue but TPK needs to be a real chance as we all agree its not fun if you always win... Sometimes people lose... but anywhos I do appreciate your balance concerns.
#8 sofawall Apr 16, 2009 23:20:27	Honestly, I see no way for a balanced, even semi-optimized party to take out a level 30 lich. I mean, wizard, incantrix and archmage all fit nicely in there. Hell, the MotUH with is telekinesis weapon attack thing based on CL would be fin. Massive amounts of swords (or spiked chains) go flying at the enemy, tripping and whacking away. Oh, I forgot, as for their battle plan, screw them, you're a wizard. Scry & Die, Teleport and return when better prepared, just plain shoot 'em dead. Wizards win.
#9 jetstrike3000 Apr 16, 2009 23:58:31	Thats a good strategy but its also one that can be employed by the party... The Minion master builds seem like an okay idea...
#10 dr_rocktopus Apr 17, 2009 0:30:09	No. It can't. You know why? He's a Lich. Ever tried to save-or-die a lich? Correction, ever tried to kill a lich? One who's not an idiot? Who made it to level 30?
#11 keithio Apr 17, 2009 1:36:34	If you're really going to be a jerk, at lvl 27 your lich can pick up the epic counterspell feat, which is all sorts of nasty. Like Carnivore suggested... I would be considering something closer to lvl 20... or 22 tops. 30 class levels optimized and they won't even get an action. You may as well just say "And now you're all dead."
#12 dr_rocktopus Apr 17, 2009 1:45:01	In fact, at that point, a nice cinematic battle against impossible odds would probably be LESS upsetting.
#13 jameswilliamogle Apr 17, 2009 6:59:19	No. It can't. You know why? He's a Lich. Ever tried to save-or-die a lich? Correction, ever tried to kill a lich? One who's not an idiot? Who made it to level 30? I'm more afraid of demi-liches at that point. Super-Epic-Quicken-W1n? Insane...
#14 dr_rocktopus Apr 17, 2009 13:13:36	Demi-liches are absurdly deadly, but at least if you kill them, they have the good graces to stay dead...
#15 carnivore Apr 17, 2009 14:56:28	an Optomized Undead Turning Cleric Build ECL 20 .... can Vaporize a Demilich.. even one a 30th lvl one :D
#16 phaedrusxy Apr 17, 2009 16:16:34	Demi-liches are absurdly deadly, but at least if you kill them, they have the good graces to stay dead... Umm... you do know that they have phylacteries too, right? It uses all the lich’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here. Phylactery Transference (Su) Headbands, belts, rings, cloaks, and other wearable items kept in close association with the demilich’s phylactery transfer all their benefits to the demilich no matter how far apart the demilich and the phylactery are located. The standard limits on types of items utilized simultaneously still apply. Except they don't even have to take their Bling with them. And aren't there ways to make yourself totally immune to Turning? Even if it were vaporized, it would still come back (unlike a vampire destroyed by turning).
#17 dr_rocktopus Apr 17, 2009 16:23:31	Whoops, wrong canon. In some sets of mythology, demi-liches are basically failed lichs and do not get phylacteries. Doh.
#18 phaedrusxy Apr 17, 2009 16:29:29	Yeah, demiliches are insanely nasty, and I played in a game once where I "recruited" a cabal of demiliches to help us in a battle. There were nine of them, and they all hovered together in the general shape of a body, and wore robes. They were linked telepathically, could all share each others spells, but got 9 actions per round. That was quite a crazy campaign... The reaction of the other PCs when I showed up with them was pretty priceless, too. :D (We were "only" about ECL 30, and that thing could have easily wiped the floor with us without breaking a sweat. It aided us in one of those "final battle to save the universe" campaign enders. :P )
#19 jameswilliamogle Apr 17, 2009 16:46:00	an Optomized Undead Turning Cleric Build ECL 20 .... can Vaporize a Demilich.. even one a 30th lvl one :D That may be true... I've not specced either out before. I abhor playing Clerics almost as much as I abhor epic games (my experiences w/ both in 3.5 have been pretty horrible, though).