Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 dr_rocktopus Apr 30, 2009 10:11:01	Below is the original post, archived here despite its foolishness, as a footnote to explain the majority of the thread. What follows is an account of my own idiocy, and then my desperate attempts to assuage my conscience for savaging a fundamentally innocent and upstanding (mostly) man. This then, is the campaign diary for....
#2 jameswilliamogle Apr 30, 2009 10:26:36	How can one get a feat at L2 for Leadership besides using a flaw with DM permission, though? Yeah, impractical until L3. How does one optimize a L0 character? 0 HD, no saves, nothing?
#3 dr_rocktopus Apr 30, 2009 10:35:56	My presumption is that since the character is zeroth level, it is both alive and dead at the same time, trapped in a strange state where it has no hit points whatsoever. As a result, your companion is clearly invincible. Presumably, since their EWL is also undefined, and is technically NaN.....
#4 sofawall Apr 30, 2009 12:25:56	It's the uncertainty lich! Also, Embrace/Shun.
#5 innabinder Apr 30, 2009 12:30:04	It's the uncertainty lich! Also, Embrace/Shun. Schrodinger's Lich. Either dead or undead, inside the unopened box.
#6 surreal Apr 30, 2009 12:32:00	How can one get a feat at L2 for Leadership besides using a flaw with DM permission, though? Yeah, impractical until L3. How does one optimize a L0 character? 0 HD, no saves, nothing? 1) Human paragon 2, although then you waste that "+1 existing class" 2) XYZ 1/Marshal 1, having picked up skill focus (diplomacy) at 1st. Then retrain skill focus (or a human/flaw bonus feat) away for Improved Cohort (Heroes of Battle) and you can have an ECL1 cohort at ECL2. This has the makings of a nice diplomancer build.
#7 hogarth Apr 30, 2009 12:34:00	There's nothing wrong with what he wrote. A 2nd level character with this feat and Leadership can only attract a cohort whose ECL is at least two levels less than his, so the pool of potential cohorts he can select from is the empty set. However, he may still have some followers, as has been pointed out, so the feat is not useless to a 2nd level character. Also, getting a feat at level 2 is fairly trivial; one easy example is to take Skill Focus (Diplomacy) at level 1, and a level of Marshal at level 2. So what's the problem?
#8 true_shinken Apr 30, 2009 12:34:35	How can one get a feat at L2 for Leadership besides using a flaw with DM permission, though? Yeah, impractical until L3. How does one optimize a L0 character? 0 HD, no saves, nothing? A human Whatever 1/Marshall 1 that took Nymn Ascendant and Skill Focus (Diplomacy) at first level works, as does selling your soul for two feats at 2nd level as does Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos (but this last one is pretty hard to pull off at level 2, even with NPC spellcasters at hand). I don't think you would actually gain a 0 level cohort, as 0 level simply does not exist. You would simply have to wait 'til 3rd level to attract a cohort. I'm sure there is a feat somewhere (was it Races of Faerun? or Heroes of Battle?) that makes your cohort only a single level behind you instead of two. This could get pretty broken if circle magic was possible in the lower levels... EDIT: Surreal ninja'd me ^^
#9 maxbarton Apr 30, 2009 12:47:59	Wait... are you saying you actually trusted him with a spoon before this? Sometimes I wonder if they proofread what they write... or perhaps if they look up the rules they are modifying. The only use of this feat is optimization... the bad kind of optimization... EDIT: Granted this would make for getting into Legendary Leader earlier
#10 Senevri Apr 30, 2009 13:16:15	So, you can easily enough get leadership at l3 with a l1 cohort, or with certain combinations at l2, and you only get followers? This is no more powerful in any ways than ordinary leadership, which you can pick at level 6, IIRC, and it costs a extra feat. Not _particularly_ badly written, nor anymore broken than leadership by default.
#11 dr_rocktopus Apr 30, 2009 13:30:01	Oh, and becoming seasonally more charismatic makes a LOT of sense. Why must Keith Baker poke fun at those of us with SAD? How high can we get leadership scores at level 2 without a full-on game break? I got it as high as 12 with only a bit of effort. However, I do not think that a normal level two character could get the score of 10 needed to access the first wave of followers.
#12 hijaxx Apr 30, 2009 13:43:05	lets see.... base 2 cha 20 +5 lets join a guild +2 lets be fair and generous +1 nymn born +1/+2 we could probably also go for the other leadership modifiers, but these are the easiest to get. extra followers from heroes of battle will give the cheesy odór a boost.
#13 dr_rocktopus Apr 30, 2009 13:45:38	Also, with some almost arbitrarily thick cheese, I think you can get into Hathran at level 3 using this and dragonsblood pool as a sorcerer. This is interesting because hathran is one of the only PrCs worth taking that grants perform as a class skill and does not also require it for entry. It almost certainly means you could get into legendary leader at ECL3. For what that's worth.
#14 hijaxx Apr 30, 2009 13:52:38	lets see.... base 2 cha 20 +5 lets join a guild +2 lets be fair and generous +1 nymn born +1/+2 we could probably also go for the other leadership modifiers, but these are the easiest to get. extra followers from heroes of battle will give the cheesy odór a boost.
#15 curufin Apr 30, 2009 15:09:25	And if you can work up an effective Leadership score of 10 or more, you can always grab Rulership (+4 Leadership score) from Power of Faerun at 3rd level. That would be better than extra followers, since it will raise the maximum level of your followers.
#16 phaedrusxy Apr 30, 2009 15:11:40	Also, IIRC, followers don't have that clause about having to be 2 levels behind you... So cheese out your Leadership score enough, and you can have level 6 guys following your level 2 Binder1/Marshal1 around while he diplomizes into submission all who oppose his growing army. :D
#17 BloodDragon Apr 30, 2009 15:24:59	I am reminded of a DM I once had that was heavily into back story. If you said you had a feat that required some or "any" pre-reqs he's ask for a loosing stringed backstory even for things like Rapid shot. It never had to be much, a simple "I severed two years in the kings army honing my archry" would do. But my horror would be to explain this feat to that DM and tell him that I had to have a "Natural birth" only for the very next words to escape his mouth be "Oh yeah? Give me some detail on that..."
#18 hogarth Apr 30, 2009 15:36:42	Also, IIRC, followers don't have that clause about having to be 2 levels behind you... So cheese out your Leadership score enough, and you can have level 6 guys following your level 2 Binder1/Marshal1 around while he diplomizes into submission all who oppose his growing army. :D I can't speak for you, but hanging around with a bunch of NPCs/DMPCs that outshine my character is my least favourite type of game...
#19 dr_rocktopus Apr 30, 2009 15:41:53	I can't speak for you, but hanging around with a bunch of NPCs/DMPCs that outshine my character is my least favourite type of game... So, it'd be just like college. Awesome. I think we can agree though, that this feat is silly. Maybe not broken, but certainly very strange.
#20 acereraklives Apr 30, 2009 15:49:00	Hmm...I think this is the best I can do in this case: Magic-Blooded Old Star Elf Bard 1/Marshal 1 Stats: 18 Cha base +2 old +2 Magic-blooded +2 racial = 24 = +7 Feats: (Flaw): Nymm Ascendant Character 1: Skill Focus (Diplomacy) Marshal Bonus 2: Leadership Level: +2 Feat: +2 Has great renown, fairness, special power, and his own house = +6 Total: 7+2+2+6 = 17 leadership, enough for a 4th level follower, and 30 1st level followers =) Somebody could probably finesse this to manage 25 leadership easily enough by about 4th level with a little work. I know that I've got an orc warlord build somewhere that manages 25 leadership at 6th. It's not official, but the Birthright 3.5 lets players take Leadership at 3rd level, by the way.
#21 true_shinken Apr 30, 2009 15:49:18	I believe there is a feat on Races of Faerun, Might Makes Right, that adds your Str modifier to your Cha modifier for Leadership.
#22 hogarth Apr 30, 2009 16:20:39	So, it'd be just like college. Awesome. I think we can agree though, that this feat is silly. Maybe not broken, but certainly very strange. The extra bonus during a certain month is odd, but the rest is harmless enough.
#23 acereraklives Apr 30, 2009 19:15:55	I believe there is a feat on Races of Faerun, Might Makes Right, that adds your Str modifier to your Cha modifier for Leadership. Yep, it's part of the orc warlord build. I think the feat requires you to be an orc though :P
#24 jameswilliamogle Apr 30, 2009 19:39:22	BTW, another way to get a "L4" follower at 1st level (musing from the current simple question thread at BG)- Human Dread Necromancer 1, Death Devotion, Precocious Apprentice - Command Undead Gives a 1 HD / L1 humanoid a negative level via Death Devotion, which due to negative levels comes back as a Wight, then use Command Undead on it (and Hide From Undead before that just in case it doesn't work). Wight gets spawn, which it explicitly controls, so...
#25 reis Apr 30, 2009 19:50:21	I don't really see what the big deal is, 3.5 has never been balanced at low levels.
#26 dr_rocktopus Apr 30, 2009 19:58:57	Three things: Level two? Why level two? One month a year you're more charming? The rest of the lunar feats offer benefits inferior to skill focus for the most part.
#27 dandu Apr 30, 2009 23:17:35	But my horror would be to explain this feat to that DM and tell him that I had to have a "Natural birth" only for the very next words to escape his mouth be "Oh yeah? Give me some detail on that..." Well, you see, when a man and a woman love each other very much...
#28 PlzBreakMyCampaign May 01, 2009 9:02:31	It's not official, but the Birthright 3.5 lets players take Leadership at 3rd level, by the way. Wait is this nymm feat official? Why is it not in the feat index. The only google hit on this feat was this page. Where the heck did you find this thing??
#29 dr_rocktopus May 01, 2009 9:10:14	Reference link to a similarly posted article Original posting on weeeeeeeeeeeeeezards dot com is apparently down. I heard something about them pulling down a lot of their pdfs recently? Original is: "Dragonshards The Moons of Eberron By Keith Baker and Chris Perkins" There are some other articles like this one, apparently also called dragonshards. They're all pretty bad. Technically a WotC source, though I'd be more likely to use the rules material from the dungeon tile sets.
#30 curufin May 01, 2009 15:52:50	Maybe an old human artificer 3. Feats: L1 - Nymn ascendant L1 hunan bonus - skill focus (use magic device) L3 - leadership Cha 20 (18 base + 2 age) = +5 nymn ascendant = +1 workshop = +2 special power = +1 every day he makes a cloak of resistance +1 (70% chance of making use magic device roll to create cloak; 21 cloaks made per 30 day month; equals 21 x 500gp profit for 10500gp total profit; divided by 200 gives) = +52 leadership modifier (profitable business from power of faerun) total leadership mod = +61, for 135 L1, 13 L2, 7 L3, 4 L4, 2 L5, 2 L6 followers At the rate he burns through xp making those cloaks, he needs to only use about 10 days a month making cloaks (7 cloaks made, 3500gp profit, +17 modifier) and 20 days for adventuring. That lets him keep a leadership mod of 25. at this point he should have great renown as everybody calls him "that cloak guy", so he could maybe take another day or two off from crafting. Or a younger artificer. So he has something to live for other than making cloaks until he dies. Now if he could just find a bunch of wishes to raise charisma, and somehow gain epic leadership. I could see giving this to a low level cultist villain so he has a few flunkies. During holy month more people flock to him. A non-optimized NPC 5th level villain could probably squeeze out a leadership mod of 13. A 3rd level cohort, 10 L1 flunkies, and a L2 flunkie with the leader make a great boss fight for 3rd or 4th level parties. But I wouldn't let the players have this. There's just no reason for a player to take this if he's not going to use it to full force.
#31 phaedrusxy May 01, 2009 16:01:54	NPCs don't need leadership. As the DM, you just decide who is in each encounter, who the leader is, etc. The extra NPCs count against the Encounter Level, and give XP just the same whether they are "officially" followers or not, unlike the NPCs granted to a PC with Leadership (who don't take XP, and basically just count as part of the PC with the feat). I wrote up an NPC or two with Leadership, until one day I was like "WTF am I doing?" :P
#32 dr_rocktopus May 01, 2009 16:14:11	I do, however, give many of my NPCs Landlord. That way when players start yelling "There are traps everywhere!" I just gently explain to them that not everyone spends their lives hoeing turnips.
#33 naanomi May 01, 2009 22:27:00	Some versions of the Xvart race are -1LA... so you could have a lvl 1 Xvart as a follower at level 2 right? Or... the warforged with the template (awakened construct?) that lowers your LA by 1...
#34 casualgatherer May 01, 2009 22:59:47	Be a Derro. +6 charisma for being racially insane, with no LA. also, just dump wisdom, since you use charisma for will saves, and you get immunity to confusion and insanity! Admittedly, you take con damage if you are exposed to sunlight, so i hope you have a tent for your slavFOLLOWERS to carry you in. Being insane could have its roleplay problems, but Derros have survived as a species so far apparently. Magic-Blooded Old Derro Whatever 1/Marshal 1 Stats: 18 Cha base +2 old +2 Magic-blooded +6 racial = 28 (+9) Feats: (Flaw): Nymm Ascendant Character 1: Skill Focus (Diplomacy) Marshal Bonus 2: Leadership Level: +2 Feat: +2 Has great renown, fairness, special power, and his own house = +6 Total: 9+2+2+6 = 19 leadership. And that was just me looking through the monster manual before i saw this thread. I dunno how old an old derro is, but oh well. I just used Acereraklives basic stuff. Adding in some other thread ideas can probably get it to 25. I'm don't have the best op-fu...
#35 PlzBreakMyCampaign May 01, 2009 23:41:38	Reference link to a similarly posted article Original posting on weeeeeeeeeeeeeezards dot com is apparently down. I heard something about them pulling down a lot of their pdfs recently? Original is: "Dragonshards The Moons of Eberron By Keith Baker and Chris Perkins" There are some other articles like this one, apparently also called dragonshards. They're all pretty bad. Technically a WotC source, though I'd be more likely to use the rules material from the dungeon tile sets. Um what? I looked through that Pdf and it has NO feats. Where did you get this feat? Did you make it up? Take a look at these searches: 1 2 & 3
#36 dr_rocktopus May 02, 2009 0:04:35	Yes, because I'd make something like that up. It's from the set of articles called dragonshards. I don't know where to find it these days, but it should be up on wizards. If you'd like, I have a pdf of the WE.
#37 surreal May 02, 2009 2:29:56	Be a Derro. +6 charisma for being racially insane, with no LA. Technically they are LA - when sane, which means they are unplayable as a pc race.
#38 PlzBreakMyCampaign May 02, 2009 10:32:09	If you'd like, I have a pdf of the WE. Um the WE? like the wii? Or perhaps you mean the war3 "world editor" And yes I would like the pdf (hopefully it hasn't been renamed) because I really, really can't find this.
#39 dr_rocktopus May 02, 2009 13:23:21	Edited into the first post.
#40 noldorforce May 02, 2009 13:28:15	Web Enhancement, presumably. Though I can't find it in that archive either. Perhaps it was added in by whoever posted it on that separate site? WotC's version includes everything there except the feats.
#41 dr_rocktopus May 02, 2009 13:31:42	I'm not sure, I mean, it's possible it's an edited version. I'd love to believe that, except that it's still got all the copyright info attached... I dunno. Weird stuff.
#42 PlzBreakMyCampaign May 03, 2009 1:50:57	I know that Eberron isn't exactly the most balanced campaign setting... But Rocktopus could you post the pdf you got from the above link? It must be different from the last pdf because the other one had no feats in it I am not gonna go register to yet another download site (comon if its free to download, why do they need people to register?)
#43 dr_rocktopus May 03, 2009 1:56:07	Scribd... normally doesn't require a log-in to view or read PDFs. How would you like me to post it?
#44 PlzBreakMyCampaign May 03, 2009 3:17:05	Hmm I got BG's "additional options" mixed up with here... Post it on BG I guess. And yes here is what I get what I try to download either the pdf or the .txt: "Log in or Sign Up to Download This Document Log In If you already have an account, log in. Username or Email Password Spinner_mac_white Trouble logging in? You can also log in using OpenID: Sign up for a Free Account It's quick and easy. Why Sign up? Download documents Share your documents with others Search our massive library of documents Participate in discussion groups Email Address (Required) Create Username Create Password (Required) Spinner_mac_white We respect your privacy and won’t send any unnecessary emails. Read our privacy policy."
#45 owls_and_more_owls May 03, 2009 3:25:31	I can hear the gears of the universe clinking together.
#46 Hellcow May 09, 2009 15:51:14	Just as a note, I've never seen these feats before in my life. If you look at the actual article that I wrote, found here, you'll see that it has none of these feats. So the actual title of this thread should be "Conclusive Evidence That Scribd Cannot Be Trusted As Having Reliable Attribution".
#47 phaedrusxy May 09, 2009 16:04:52	Priceless! :heehee
#48 true_shinken May 09, 2009 18:25:07	Priceless! :heehee +1! Awesome!
#49 risner May 09, 2009 18:36:10	I.... Level two? This will get you a zeroth level cohort. He wouldn't get a cohort at level 2. He would get the followers tho. I don't really see that as a problem since how many people actually play starting at 1st level anyway. I've seen 40+ games started in the last 8 years or so and only one started at level 1. So the actual title of this thread should be "Conclusive Evidence That Scribd Cannot Be Trusted As Having Reliable Attribution". Insanely awesome
#50 casualgatherer May 09, 2009 19:32:11	I've played 4 games in the past 3 years that have all started at level 1.
#51 risner May 09, 2009 20:03:40	I've played 4 games in the past 3 years that have all started at level 1. I guess I'm glad I don't live near you Since I wouldn't even consider starting a game less than 5th to 10th level.
#52 innabinder May 09, 2009 21:52:11	I guess I'm glad I don't like near you Since I wouldn't even consider starting a game less than 5th to 10th level. Going to assume that 'like' was a typo for 'live'.
#53 curufin May 10, 2009 16:31:29	I think Mr Baker wants his spoon back. Going to assume that 'like' was a type for 'live'. Going to assume that 'type' was a typo for 'typo'.
#54 innabinder May 10, 2009 16:49:32	Nice irony, don't you think? :embarrass
#55 PlzBreakMyCampaign May 13, 2009 10:58:24	Hmm a tad of thread necromancy but I thought this died without Keith saw it. I guess I was right to push the issue on these feats :P I think Mr Baker wants his spoon back. Yeah where is that spoon? Perhaps a will make it better
#56 rymosrac May 13, 2009 11:42:02	You know, I'm still not sure I'd trust him with a spoon. I mean, seriously. That 'stache alone is proof that he's irredeemably evil.
#57 dr_rocktopus May 13, 2009 15:09:07	Well, it does appear that I owe the Rt. Hon. Keith Baker a spoon. Does anyone know a shipping address for him that's suitably anonymous? I think this might need to be a tradition of some sort, shipping wrought iron spoons to those you have offended or whom you respect for their contributions to your community.
#58 phaedrusxy May 13, 2009 15:16:45	You know, I'm still not sure I'd trust him with a spoon. I mean, seriously. That 'stache alone is proof that he's irredeemably evil. After reading this post, I had to go find a picture of him. I agree. He does look a bit like Snidely Whiplash.
#59 curufin May 13, 2009 15:44:54	This does bring up the question of what no-spoon deserving chump thought up that feat. We should find him and take away his spoon and give it to Mr. Baker. I'm betting Doc Rock already had Keith's original spoon thrown into a volcano to destroy its power.
#60 dr_rocktopus May 13, 2009 16:00:31	Are you kidding? Destroy its power? Me?
#61 phaedrusxy May 13, 2009 16:06:20	Are you kidding? Destroy its power? Me? *Imagines Dr. Rocktopus as Gandalf* *Dies laughing* Frodo: So I have this ring... Dr. Rocktopus: Give me that you little twerp!
#62 dr_rocktopus May 13, 2009 16:06:56	I would use it with the intent to do good!
#63 curufin May 13, 2009 16:08:57	Are you kidding? Destroy its power? Me? Good point. You probably made it multiclass into spork.
#64 rymosrac May 13, 2009 17:47:36	Wouldn't that be multiclassing into fork, resulting in a spork? . . . A spork which Phaedrus then uses as the primary weapon for his old Shou Iajutsu Swashmaster build. Edit: Clarity FAIL.
#65 phaedrusxy May 13, 2009 22:13:44	Wouldn't that be multiclassing into fork, resulting in a spork? . . . A spork which he then uses as the primary weapon for his old Shou Iajutsu Swashmaster build? That was MY build. :D
#66 rymosrac May 14, 2009 0:24:07	Wow. Clarified meaning fail. My bad. I was referring to you, though. Of course it's yours - and very stylish.
#67 jgumbyrx May 14, 2009 1:31:52	Wouldn't that be multiclassing into fork, resulting in a spork? Nah, Spork is a feat, found in Complete Table-setter: Spork You are well versed in the art of food delivery, combining the stab and scoop abilities in to a single utensil. Prerquisites: parabolic surface; 2 or more prongs Benefit: When you take this feat, your levels in Fork stack with your levels in Spoon for the purposes of food delivery. Furthermore, you are now able to utilize either ability singularly and alternately without having to switch utensils.
#68 Hellcow May 14, 2009 4:44:12	Yeah where is that spoon? Perhaps a will make it better Mmmm, cookie.
#69 sofawall May 14, 2009 7:33:10	And Mr. Baker, would you like your spoon back?
#70 hijaxx May 14, 2009 8:00:41	thats a very horrible comic strip, sofa. and this cookie wont make it better. oh well then, you can have it
#71 sofawall May 14, 2009 21:37:02	xkcd shall not be called... Horrible... It is awesome.
#72 Hellcow May 15, 2009 1:40:12	And Mr. Baker, would you like your spoon back? I do actually have a vorpal fork, but I'd be a fool to say no to a good spoon. Does anyone know a shipping address for him that's suitably anonymous? As it turns out, being a man without a home for the next year, I DO have an anonymous mailing address. Now we can see just what havoc posting your address on the boards can wreak (though bear in mind, I'll only be checking this address every month or so). Show Keith Baker PO Box 2186 Boulder, CO 80306
#73 dr_rocktopus May 15, 2009 4:01:03	The campaign diary has been updated to reflect this. I'm optimistic that the hunt for a suitable ladle will work out well enough that I'll have more news within the next week.
#74 sofawall May 15, 2009 7:26:20	As it turns out, being a man without a home for the next year, I DO have an anonymous mailing address. Now we can see just what havoc posting your address on the boards can wreak (though bear in mind, I'll only be checking this address every month or so). Show Keith Baker PO Box 2186 Boulder, CO 80306
#75 dr_rocktopus Nov 21, 2009 13:38:36	Finally got him his spoon.
#76 dr_rocktopus Nov 21, 2009 13:47:25	Fixed and updated main post.  Will update with further dialogue upon receipt of spoon.
#77 innabinder Nov 21, 2009 13:48:23	And there was much rejoicing.