CO Diary: Crusader Tank - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 pfooti Feb 25, 2008 15:15:30	Okay, I'm going to keep two CO diaries, one for each of the characters I'm running (two different campaigns). I just rolled this character from scratch, because I had been playing the party Cleric and was getting more and more frustrated with the role. One of the other party members took the Leadership feat at level 9, and got a cohort healing cleric. So, my cleric was pretty much obsoleted at that point, and the DM kindly let me retire the one character in favor of the other. Setting / Constraints: Show 28 point buy attributes, most classes and races available. Most sources available, given DM permission. Custom setting means most setting material is out, although can be reflavored to work. Favored class not enforced, but no character can have more than 3 classes.
#2 Endarrion Feb 26, 2008 7:37:48	I'm glad to see this character in a CO Diary after you mentioned it in my thread. I'll be keeping an eye on this. I was actually thinking of doing one for my elf crusader, but I'm not so sure about that. One thing though, aren't you worried about the 1d6 damage from the spinning sword? That won't make the DCs for your Stand Still very high. Just a thought.
#3 pfooti Feb 26, 2008 7:59:32	So, I haven't actually played this character yet, he's all created and everything, but the next session isn't until next week. This week, it's my other character (an elf wizard) that I need to start my other CO Diary for. The vicious enchantment does an extra 2d6 damage for a +1 cost, and the weapon also will have a 1d6 acid damage crystal. The DM is trying to decide if either of those items will actually contribute to the stand still DC. If they don't, it might be an issue. If anyone has a link to a FAQ or errata ruling somewhere, that'd be neat. The other thing I'm worried about is the maneuver selection. Stone power is a key feature in this character's life, especially with a constant stream of vicious weapon damage. With only one stone dragon strike readied, he'll be somewhat limited if he really needs to stone power a lot. I was thinking that maybe I should replace battle leader's charge with another stone dragon strike, such as the one that's +2d6 and bypasses hardness.
#4 pfooti Mar 14, 2008 9:55:15	Had the first session last night. It was mostly overland travel, getting to the next major story bit. I have to applaud my DM for actually handling overland travel well, we were ambushed a few times (since we were in enemy territory, effectively). On the other hand, it was mostly a lot of strange combat, since we had good enough spot/listen to not really be ambushed. We had to be on our toes, though. Most of the combats ended up not quite working out to favor the Crusader. The first night, dire boars attacked while he was asleep, and he was the last to wake up. He got up in time to hit somebody, but since the boars were true neutral, the healing strike didn't work. Sigh. Later, we fought a band of Athaks, the three-armed giant aberration things. We saw them far away. The sorcerer went first: fireball, circlet of rapid casting, fireball. I went next. I ran up a bit (they were 150' or more away, so it was going to be a while). White raven tactics came up in the cards - I WRT'd the sorcerer. Another fireball. Three of the four athaks died before their turn came up. So, I helped. Later, there was a more straightforward combat. Stand still worked great, it did exactly what I needed it to do. However, and this is a big deal, Vicious isn't nearly as cool as I thought it was on first glance. Your DD pool dumps at the end of your turn, so any vicious damage you take doesn't really help the furious counterstrike thing. It's likely that vicious goes straight to HP as well, as the steely resolve description talks about "whenever a foe damages you". It's possible my weapon is my foe. Anyway, I'm keeping the vicious weapon, as I worked it into my backstory (and I really like the RP I worked out with the character). But unless there's some ruling resolving the inconsistency in the Steely Resolve description, it doesn't look to be a synergistic as I'd hoped. It's still a good deal, I'll take 1d6 damage that I am able to prevent or heal with strikes and stone power in exchange for 2d6 damage to foes any day. The inconsistency, by the way, is that Steely Resolve says that damage a foe does to you is put into your DD pool until your next turn, but then it also says at the end of your turn, your DD pool resets to 0. So what happens when an enemy gets an AoO on you during your turn? Does the DD pool dump to 0 at the end of your turn, or does it dump only the damage you took before the start of your turn? Hard to say, but given that my crusader is already looking like he's going to be pretty strong (even just giving the blaster an extra turn per combat is great), I'll go with the more restrictive interpretation in this game.
#5 gryftir Mar 20, 2008 7:27:50	Damage taken during your turn would seem to add to your DD and hit you at the end of the turn. Not horrible since it can still add to your furious counterstrike if you attack after the damage, but it be nice if you could carry it over. Something to ask your DM about. Furious counterstrike only works on your turn unfortunately, not for AOOs.
#6 hogarth Mar 20, 2008 8:36:18	Later, we fought a band of Athaks, the three-armed giant aberration things. We saw them far away. The sorcerer went first: fireball, circlet of rapid casting, fireball. I went next. I ran up a bit (they were 150' or more away, so it was going to be a while). White raven tactics came up in the cards - I WRT'd the sorcerer. Another fireball. Three of the four athaks died before their turn came up. So, I helped. What? Fireball was a useful spell? But-but-but...that goes against all of the brilliant anti-direct-damage pontificating I've seen on the Character Optimization board! My world-view is crumbling... ;)
#7 pfooti Mar 20, 2008 9:37:55	Heh, Fireball can be awfully useful if you do it right. This character in particular has all sorts of good metamagic feats so his fireballs do a lot more damage, and even do half-damage against fire-immune creatures. Sure, it could probably be more optimal, but still, nothing says loving like three fireballs while you're flat-footed. As to the supposed synergy of the build, it's falling apart. Based on my re-read of Steadfast Resolve, the vicious weapon damage doesn't go into his DD pool at all, since the language is along the lines of "when a foe attacks you". Even still, I'm thinking that the large number of base HP, the DR 3/- from the iron ward crystal, and the healing strikes and extra temp HP from stone power will keep him upright even though the vicious damage goes straight to HP, no DR or DD pool. I'll have to add more stone dragon strikes to the rotation, though, since you can't use Earth Power with DS or WR strikes. And that's the point to this diary: field testing what looked to be on paper a very powerful character. So far, in practice it is still good, but not as overpowered as I'd feared. Next session is tonight, so I'll have another report tomorrow.
#8 bartd Mar 20, 2008 9:39:44	This is kind of funny, I was just considering/planning a similar character. We don't use flaws so it will probably be without standstill, but otherwise quite similar. One question though: How do you qualify for Iron Heart Surge? I think it is necessary to take something like Wall of Blades to qualify? And another question: How is Stone Power working out for you? Is the extra soaking significant and what action/strike do you use it with? Hope to hear more about your exploits!
#9 templer10 Mar 20, 2008 9:43:28	What? Fireball was a useful spell? But-but-but...that goes against all of the brilliant anti-direct-damage pontificating I've seen on the Character Optimization board! My world-view is crumbling... ;) it was a Sorcerer - i think we can forgive a sorcerer for picking that Spell. i love battlefield control just like the next Guy - but sometimes the situation does call for blowing someone up (like sorcerer vs melee type emeies from far far away).
#10 pfooti Mar 20, 2008 9:47:45	According to p43 of ToB, stances count as maneuvers for the purpose of counting prerequisites. So Punishing Stance is the way I get into Iron Heart Surge. Stone Power is moderate so far. I'm still juggling the maneuvers readied - having Mountain Hammer (the 2nd level stone dragon strike) in the mix makes for more Stone Dragon strikes, but frankly, I'd rather make a full attack than a single attack at +2d6 damage (since he has an iterative attack anyway). Extra granted maneuver is really key there, it keeps the maneuvers fresh. Still, at this level, I find that his DD pool is filled up a lot, and the 10 temp HP doesn't cover all his incoming damage. 10 HP for two out of every three rounds, and the occasional healing strike thrown in, though, adds up pretty quickly. I'm definitely glad for having Stand Still. Frankly, I'd take stand still over extra granted maneuver. The save DC is bordering on ridiculous, and a significant part of this character's functionality is keeping foes at arms length, hopefully where they can't hit you back. A big part of the "damage mitigation" thing is preventing people from attacking you. The party rogue just picked up staggering strike, so things are going to get even better on that front.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

pfooti

Feb 25, 2008 15:15:30

Okay, I'm going to keep two CO diaries, one for each of the characters I'm running (two different campaigns).

I just rolled this character from scratch, because I had been playing the party Cleric and was getting more and more frustrated with the role. One of the other party members took the Leadership feat at level 9, and got a cohort healing cleric. So, my cleric was pretty much obsoleted at that point, and the DM kindly let me retire the one character in favor of the other.

Setting / Constraints:

Show

28 point buy attributes, most classes and races available. Most sources available, given DM permission. Custom setting means most setting material is out, although can be reflavored to work. Favored class not enforced, but no character can have more than 3 classes.

Endarrion

Feb 26, 2008 7:37:48

I'm glad to see this character in a CO Diary after you mentioned it in my thread.

I'll be keeping an eye on this.

I was actually thinking of doing one for my elf crusader, but I'm not so sure about that.

One thing though, aren't you worried about the 1d6 damage from the spinning sword? That won't make the DCs for your Stand Still very high. Just a thought.

pfooti

Feb 26, 2008 7:59:32

So, I haven't actually played this character yet, he's all created and everything, but the next session isn't until next week. This week, it's my other character (an elf wizard) that I need to start my other CO Diary for.

The vicious enchantment does an extra 2d6 damage for a +1 cost, and the weapon also will have a 1d6 acid damage crystal.

The DM is trying to decide if either of those items will actually contribute to the stand still DC. If they don't, it might be an issue. If anyone has a link to a FAQ or errata ruling somewhere, that'd be neat.

The other thing I'm worried about is the maneuver selection. Stone power is a key feature in this character's life, especially with a constant stream of vicious weapon damage. With only one stone dragon strike readied, he'll be somewhat limited if he really needs to stone power a lot. I was thinking that maybe I should replace battle leader's charge with another stone dragon strike, such as the one that's +2d6 and bypasses hardness.

pfooti

Mar 14, 2008 9:55:15

Had the first session last night. It was mostly overland travel, getting to the next major story bit. I have to applaud my DM for actually handling overland travel well, we were ambushed a few times (since we were in enemy territory, effectively). On the other hand, it was mostly a lot of strange combat, since we had good enough spot/listen to not really be ambushed. We had to be on our toes, though.

Most of the combats ended up not quite working out to favor the Crusader. The first night, dire boars attacked while he was asleep, and he was the last to wake up. He got up in time to hit somebody, but since the boars were true neutral, the healing strike didn't work. Sigh.

Later, we fought a band of Athaks, the three-armed giant aberration things. We saw them far away. The sorcerer went first: fireball, circlet of rapid casting, fireball. I went next. I ran up a bit (they were 150' or more away, so it was going to be a while). White raven tactics came up in the cards - I WRT'd the sorcerer. Another fireball. Three of the four athaks died before their turn came up. So, I helped.

Later, there was a more straightforward combat. Stand still worked great, it did exactly what I needed it to do.

However, and this is a big deal, Vicious isn't nearly as cool as I thought it was on first glance. Your DD pool dumps at the end of your turn, so any vicious damage you take doesn't really help the furious counterstrike thing. It's likely that vicious goes straight to HP as well, as the steely resolve description talks about "whenever a foe damages you". It's possible my weapon is my foe.

Anyway, I'm keeping the vicious weapon, as I worked it into my backstory (and I really like the RP I worked out with the character). But unless there's some ruling resolving the inconsistency in the Steely Resolve description, it doesn't look to be a synergistic as I'd hoped. It's still a good deal, I'll take 1d6 damage that I am able to prevent or heal with strikes and stone power in exchange for 2d6 damage to foes any day.

The inconsistency, by the way, is that Steely Resolve says that damage a foe does to you is put into your DD pool until your next turn, but then it also says at the end of your turn, your DD pool resets to 0. So what happens when an enemy gets an AoO on you during your turn? Does the DD pool dump to 0 at the end of your turn, or does it dump only the damage you took before the start of your turn? Hard to say, but given that my crusader is already looking like he's going to be pretty strong (even just giving the blaster an extra turn per combat is great), I'll go with the more restrictive interpretation in this game.

gryftir

Mar 20, 2008 7:27:50

Damage taken during your turn would seem to add to your DD and hit you at the end of the turn. Not horrible since it can still add to your furious counterstrike if you attack after the damage, but it be nice if you could carry it over. Something to ask your DM about.

Furious counterstrike only works on your turn unfortunately, not for AOOs.

hogarth

Mar 20, 2008 8:36:18

Later, we fought a band of Athaks, the three-armed giant aberration things. We saw them far away. The sorcerer went first: fireball, circlet of rapid casting, fireball. I went next. I ran up a bit (they were 150' or more away, so it was going to be a while). White raven tactics came up in the cards - I WRT'd the sorcerer. Another fireball. Three of the four athaks died before their turn came up. So, I helped.

What? Fireball was a useful spell? But-but-but...that goes against all of the brilliant anti-direct-damage pontificating I've seen on the Character Optimization board! My world-view is crumbling... ;)

pfooti

Mar 20, 2008 9:37:55

Heh, Fireball can be awfully useful if you do it right. This character in particular has all sorts of good metamagic feats so his fireballs do a lot more damage, and even do half-damage against fire-immune creatures.

Sure, it could probably be more optimal, but still, nothing says loving like three fireballs while you're flat-footed.

As to the supposed synergy of the build, it's falling apart. Based on my re-read of Steadfast Resolve, the vicious weapon damage doesn't go into his DD pool at all, since the language is along the lines of "when a foe attacks you".

Even still, I'm thinking that the large number of base HP, the DR 3/- from the iron ward crystal, and the healing strikes and extra temp HP from stone power will keep him upright even though the vicious damage goes straight to HP, no DR or DD pool. I'll have to add more stone dragon strikes to the rotation, though, since you can't use Earth Power with DS or WR strikes.

And that's the point to this diary: field testing what looked to be on paper a very powerful character. So far, in practice it is still good, but not as overpowered as I'd feared. Next session is tonight, so I'll have another report tomorrow.

bartd

Mar 20, 2008 9:39:44

This is kind of funny, I was just considering/planning a similar character. We don't use flaws so it will probably be without standstill, but otherwise quite similar.

One question though: How do you qualify for Iron Heart Surge? I think it is necessary to take something like Wall of Blades to qualify?

And another question: How is Stone Power working out for you? Is the extra soaking significant and what action/strike do you use it with?

Hope to hear more about your exploits!

templer10

Mar 20, 2008 9:43:28

What? Fireball was a useful spell? But-but-but...that goes against all of the brilliant anti-direct-damage pontificating I've seen on the Character Optimization board! My world-view is crumbling... ;)

it was a Sorcerer - i think we can forgive a sorcerer for picking that Spell. i love battlefield control just like the next Guy - but sometimes the situation does call for blowing someone up (like sorcerer vs melee type emeies from far far away).

#10

pfooti

Mar 20, 2008 9:47:45

According to p43 of ToB, stances count as maneuvers for the purpose of counting prerequisites. So Punishing Stance is the way I get into Iron Heart Surge.

Stone Power is moderate so far. I'm still juggling the maneuvers readied - having Mountain Hammer (the 2nd level stone dragon strike) in the mix makes for more Stone Dragon strikes, but frankly, I'd rather make a full attack than a single attack at +2d6 damage (since he has an iterative attack anyway). Extra granted maneuver is really key there, it keeps the maneuvers fresh. Still, at this level, I find that his DD pool is filled up a lot, and the 10 temp HP doesn't cover all his incoming damage. 10 HP for two out of every three rounds, and the occasional healing strike thrown in, though, adds up pretty quickly.

I'm definitely glad for having Stand Still. Frankly, I'd take stand still over extra granted maneuver. The save DC is bordering on ridiculous, and a significant part of this character's functionality is keeping foes at arms length, hopefully where they can't hit you back. A big part of the "damage mitigation" thing is preventing people from attacking you.

The party rogue just picked up staggering strike, so things are going to get even better on that front.