CO help on a Gish? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

CO help on a Gish?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
sancho_montoya
Mar 18, 2008 22:30:15 Hi all,

I'm looking at making a gish as my next character, and was hoping to get some suggestions on what I have so far.

A house rule - you get one "base" class as a preferred class (based on race, as normal) and you also get only one Prestige class as the preferred class. If you add any other prestige classes, they count against you if they are out of whack with the base class levels (i.e. more than 1 level above or below.)

So, with that in mind, I'm looking at a Skillmonkey/Gish who can be stabby too, although his AC isn't perfect.

Here's what I have so far:

Level Class BAB Caster Level
1 Bard 1 0 B1
2 Rogue 1 B1
3 Rogue 2 1 B1
4 Druid 1 1 B1 / D1
5 Bard 2 2 B2 / D1
6 Bard 3 3 B3 / D1
7 Bard 4 4 B4 / D1
8 Spellsword 1 5 B5 / D1
9 Abjurant Champion 1 6 B6 / D1
10 Abjurant Champion 2 7 B7 / D1
11 Sublime Chord 1 7 B7 / D1 / SC1
12 Fochluchan Lyrist 1 8 B7 / D2 / SC2
13 FL 2 9 B7 / D3 / SC3
14 FL 3 10 B7 / D4 / SC4
15 FL 4 11 B7 / D5 / SC5
16 FL 5 12 B7 / D6 / SC6
17 FL 6 13 B7 / D7 / SC7
18 FL 7 14 B7 / D8 / SC8
19 FL 8 15 B7 / D9 / SC9
20 FL 9 16 B7 / D10 / SC10

Character would be human, with Bard as the preferred base class, and Fochluchan Lyrist as preferred Prestige class.

I took the Spellsword 1 instead of Unseen Seer 1 at 8th level because it gives 10% reduction on spellfail while in armor, thus, I'll be able to wear a Mithral Breastplate once I hit 12th level (Fochluchan Lyrist lets me ease up on Druid metal armor limits -I can wear light) - this would give me a 5% spellfail chance, which I can live with - seemed more important than the extra 1d6 of backstab I could get from Unseen Seer.

I think that the rolled stats will be assigned in this order: Con, Int, Wis, Chr, Dex, Str
Feats:1 - Able Learner, Weapon Focus Rapier, Combat Reflexes (Flaw: Weak willed)
3 - Weapon Finesse, 6 - Combat Casting, 9 - Improved Disarm, 12 - Lyric Spell, Craft Wondrous Item or Forge Magical Arms and Armor?, 15 - ?, 18 - ?

Any suggestions for improvement would be greatly appreciated.
#2
heffroncm
Mar 18, 2008 22:55:51 Given your limitations, I'd suggest something based on the Anima Mage PrC from Tome of Magic. You can make a perfectly effective character, versatile in all situations, with 2 base classes and 1 prestige class. You'll get 3 free Metamagics per day, which can be spent on Persistent buffs by taking feats you'll likely want anyway. With time to prepare your vestiges and spells, you can do anything that anyone else in the party can do.

As to refining what you have, Magic Item Compendium will be a big help with the Twilight armor enhancement. Twilight Mithral Breastplate has an Arcane Spell Failure chance of 0%. There is even a way to swing Mithral Full Plate with 0% ASF, but that might be pushing your luck.

Working multiple casting sources into your build can be great, but I wonder how much you lose to MAD.
#3
robbypants
Mar 19, 2008 15:43:34 If you want something simple, to keep from the multiclassing restrictions, Battle Sorcerer 15/Abjurant Champion 5 works nicely. It's not a gish powerhouse, but it's all contained within two classes. If you wanted to focus a bit more on the melee side, you could always swap out two levels of Battle Sorcerer for Paladin, giving you a better weapon selection, and your Cha mod as a bonus to saves.

I'm not sure how much I'd try to work a skill monkey role into a gish. If you spread yourself too thin, you won't be very effective. One easy way is to use the above build (without the paladin levels) and take one or two levels of rogue. This gives you a good set of class skills, trapfinding, and possibly evasion (if you took the 2nd level).
#4
archerpwr
Mar 19, 2008 16:16:23 How about wizard 6/ swiftblade 10/ unseen seer 4? Use fire or grey elf and you should end up with at least 6 skill points per level. Spontaneous divination a divine insight for a tasty +15 to any skill check that matters. Swiftblade has 4+int off a pretty nice list so should give at least 8 per level. Unseen seer will give at least 10 per level.

Note that your hp wont be high as an elf with a d6 HD. Grab minor shapeshift to mitigate that.
#5
sancho_montoya
Mar 21, 2008 7:56:38 Thanks for the suggestions everyone - I'll explore the options you've given me - sounds like I'll have fun playing with the possibilities.
#6
w00tmanx
Mar 21, 2008 8:10:47 http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15258458&postcount=68

this is where the discussion starts to get good. The thread isn't the most exhaustive in the world, but it talks about this build.
#7
dakr
Mar 21, 2008 8:24:06 You can't take Spellsword without heavy armor proficiency. On the other hand, bard and sublime chord allow casting spells in light armor, which should be enough to wear mithral breastplate.

However, if you want a gish, stay away from Fochlucan Lyrist. The full BAB it confers is a façade - you won't actually be good in melee.

For a skillmonkey gish, I have two suggestions:

Bard 8/Ranger 2/Sublime Chord 2/Sacred Exorcist 8 (ok, the last 8 levels aren't skill monkeyish).

2wf chain, Dragonfire Inspiration, Snowflake Wardance, Divine Might, Song of the Heart. You have +Cha to hit/dmg and, with a badge of valor (MIC), +3d6 fire damage with each attack. All of that with 9th level spells from your full SC progression.

Trade Ranger for Paladin if you'd rather get Cha to saves in lieu of more skills and bonus 2wf. In this case, also pick Battlecaster (CA) to cast spells in mithral full plate.

Rogue or Bard 1/anything 4/Chameleon 7 or 10/anything else. You'll have a lot of room to work out of this. As long as you take melee classes that grant 4 skill pts per level or more, you'll do fine. Chameleon 7 is the minimum you should take; Chameleon 10 is really good if you don't have other plans in mind. Some suggestions:

Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 3/Swordsage 1 is a good entry if you want a dex-based warrior. Chameleon 7 grants +4 to an attribute, which should be Dex, of course. With Shadow Blade, that's a huge bonus to damage, further augmented by Insightful Strike. Sadly, you can't reach +16 BAB if you opt for full Chameleon progression.

Rogue or Bard 1/Warblade 4/Chameleon 10/Exotic Weapon Master 1/Warblade +3 is another fine option. Get yourself a great scimitar and wield it with 2 hands. Cham10 grants +6 to a stat, so you'll have a pretty high Str bonus. EWM grants double Str bonus in this case. Add in Blood in the Water and you're gold.

Finally, the BAB hit hurts, but adding 4 levels of Dragon Disciple after you finish your Chamaleon progression is quite good. +4 Str, +2 natural armor, lots of hit points and 2 good saves, and 3 bonus spells - since you'll be a good spellcaster, it's actually worth something.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 sancho_montoya Mar 18, 2008 22:30:15	Hi all, I'm looking at making a gish as my next character, and was hoping to get some suggestions on what I have so far. A house rule - you get one "base" class as a preferred class (based on race, as normal) and you also get only one Prestige class as the preferred class. If you add any other prestige classes, they count against you if they are out of whack with the base class levels (i.e. more than 1 level above or below.) So, with that in mind, I'm looking at a Skillmonkey/Gish who can be stabby too, although his AC isn't perfect. Here's what I have so far: Level Class BAB Caster Level 1 Bard 1 0 B1 2 Rogue 1 B1 3 Rogue 2 1 B1 4 Druid 1 1 B1 / D1 5 Bard 2 2 B2 / D1 6 Bard 3 3 B3 / D1 7 Bard 4 4 B4 / D1 8 Spellsword 1 5 B5 / D1 9 Abjurant Champion 1 6 B6 / D1 10 Abjurant Champion 2 7 B7 / D1 11 Sublime Chord 1 7 B7 / D1 / SC1 12 Fochluchan Lyrist 1 8 B7 / D2 / SC2 13 FL 2 9 B7 / D3 / SC3 14 FL 3 10 B7 / D4 / SC4 15 FL 4 11 B7 / D5 / SC5 16 FL 5 12 B7 / D6 / SC6 17 FL 6 13 B7 / D7 / SC7 18 FL 7 14 B7 / D8 / SC8 19 FL 8 15 B7 / D9 / SC9 20 FL 9 16 B7 / D10 / SC10 Character would be human, with Bard as the preferred base class, and Fochluchan Lyrist as preferred Prestige class. I took the Spellsword 1 instead of Unseen Seer 1 at 8th level because it gives 10% reduction on spellfail while in armor, thus, I'll be able to wear a Mithral Breastplate once I hit 12th level (Fochluchan Lyrist lets me ease up on Druid metal armor limits -I can wear light) - this would give me a 5% spellfail chance, which I can live with - seemed more important than the extra 1d6 of backstab I could get from Unseen Seer. I think that the rolled stats will be assigned in this order: Con, Int, Wis, Chr, Dex, Str Feats:1 - Able Learner, Weapon Focus Rapier, Combat Reflexes (Flaw: Weak willed) 3 - Weapon Finesse, 6 - Combat Casting, 9 - Improved Disarm, 12 - Lyric Spell, Craft Wondrous Item or Forge Magical Arms and Armor?, 15 - ?, 18 - ? Any suggestions for improvement would be greatly appreciated.
#2 heffroncm Mar 18, 2008 22:55:51	Given your limitations, I'd suggest something based on the Anima Mage PrC from Tome of Magic. You can make a perfectly effective character, versatile in all situations, with 2 base classes and 1 prestige class. You'll get 3 free Metamagics per day, which can be spent on Persistent buffs by taking feats you'll likely want anyway. With time to prepare your vestiges and spells, you can do anything that anyone else in the party can do. As to refining what you have, Magic Item Compendium will be a big help with the Twilight armor enhancement. Twilight Mithral Breastplate has an Arcane Spell Failure chance of 0%. There is even a way to swing Mithral Full Plate with 0% ASF, but that might be pushing your luck. Working multiple casting sources into your build can be great, but I wonder how much you lose to MAD.
#3 robbypants Mar 19, 2008 15:43:34	If you want something simple, to keep from the multiclassing restrictions, Battle Sorcerer 15/Abjurant Champion 5 works nicely. It's not a gish powerhouse, but it's all contained within two classes. If you wanted to focus a bit more on the melee side, you could always swap out two levels of Battle Sorcerer for Paladin, giving you a better weapon selection, and your Cha mod as a bonus to saves. I'm not sure how much I'd try to work a skill monkey role into a gish. If you spread yourself too thin, you won't be very effective. One easy way is to use the above build (without the paladin levels) and take one or two levels of rogue. This gives you a good set of class skills, trapfinding, and possibly evasion (if you took the 2nd level).
#4 archerpwr Mar 19, 2008 16:16:23	How about wizard 6/ swiftblade 10/ unseen seer 4? Use fire or grey elf and you should end up with at least 6 skill points per level. Spontaneous divination a divine insight for a tasty +15 to any skill check that matters. Swiftblade has 4+int off a pretty nice list so should give at least 8 per level. Unseen seer will give at least 10 per level. Note that your hp wont be high as an elf with a d6 HD. Grab minor shapeshift to mitigate that.
#5 sancho_montoya Mar 21, 2008 7:56:38	Thanks for the suggestions everyone - I'll explore the options you've given me - sounds like I'll have fun playing with the possibilities.
#6 w00tmanx Mar 21, 2008 8:10:47	http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15258458&postcount=68 this is where the discussion starts to get good. The thread isn't the most exhaustive in the world, but it talks about this build.
#7 dakr Mar 21, 2008 8:24:06	You can't take Spellsword without heavy armor proficiency. On the other hand, bard and sublime chord allow casting spells in light armor, which should be enough to wear mithral breastplate. However, if you want a gish, stay away from Fochlucan Lyrist. The full BAB it confers is a façade - you won't actually be good in melee. For a skillmonkey gish, I have two suggestions: Bard 8/Ranger 2/Sublime Chord 2/Sacred Exorcist 8 (ok, the last 8 levels aren't skill monkeyish). 2wf chain, Dragonfire Inspiration, Snowflake Wardance, Divine Might, Song of the Heart. You have +Cha to hit/dmg and, with a badge of valor (MIC), +3d6 fire damage with each attack. All of that with 9th level spells from your full SC progression. Trade Ranger for Paladin if you'd rather get Cha to saves in lieu of more skills and bonus 2wf. In this case, also pick Battlecaster (CA) to cast spells in mithral full plate. Rogue or Bard 1/anything 4/Chameleon 7 or 10/anything else. You'll have a lot of room to work out of this. As long as you take melee classes that grant 4 skill pts per level or more, you'll do fine. Chameleon 7 is the minimum you should take; Chameleon 10 is really good if you don't have other plans in mind. Some suggestions: Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 3/Swordsage 1 is a good entry if you want a dex-based warrior. Chameleon 7 grants +4 to an attribute, which should be Dex, of course. With Shadow Blade, that's a huge bonus to damage, further augmented by Insightful Strike. Sadly, you can't reach +16 BAB if you opt for full Chameleon progression. Rogue or Bard 1/Warblade 4/Chameleon 10/Exotic Weapon Master 1/Warblade +3 is another fine option. Get yourself a great scimitar and wield it with 2 hands. Cham10 grants +6 to a stat, so you'll have a pretty high Str bonus. EWM grants double Str bonus in this case. Add in Blood in the Water and you're gold. Finally, the BAB hit hurts, but adding 4 levels of Dragon Disciple after you finish your Chamaleon progression is quite good. +4 Str, +2 natural armor, lots of hit points and 2 good saves, and 3 bonus spells - since you'll be a good spellcaster, it's actually worth something.