But I actually think Warblade 20 is an awesome archer. Time Stands Still + Raging Mongoose + Blood in the Water = severe pain... and of course you don't actually need to be an archer to pull it off. But with even just Rapid Shot you're looking at a 14 shot volley.
But you really want to do it? All you need is an Iron or Steel bow. Honestly, I don't know how to do that, but if it's possible, then "why hello thar, Disciple of Dispater!" Suddenly Blood in the Water is all kinds of awesome.
Of course, if we change it to "thrown weapons" DoD really takes off. Dual wield Chatkchas (18-20/X2 critical, 20' range, 1d6 damage, DR 319) and make it Warblade 7/Master Thrower5/DoD 8. You've got your little 9-20 critical range badboys and Blood in the Water to bring it home, plus you can combine Weak Spot, Palm Throw, and Two with One Blow. With Rapid Shot and the TWF line that's a grand total of 32 shots a round, all touch attacks, each with a greater than 50% chance to trigger Blood in the Water. Make sure you have those gloves that let you return your weapons. Also, your first shot each encounter can be Dancing Mongoosed for 8 more attacks.
That may not be what you wanted, but I got inspired!
JaronK
thems some attacks
now, make the chtkchas adaptive and take the lightning mace feat so you get an additional attack for each threat
thems some attacks
No good. Melee weapons only.
Um... what's stopping us from doing this with daggers, and adding Roundabout Kick? Holy riccocheting cutlery, batman!
JaronK
I can't believe I missed that. Needs Roundabout Kick too, for pure stupidity.
JaronK
next question: can you score a threat on a opponent who is immune to critical hits, and thus gain an extra attack even though you can't actually get a crit? I would tend to think yes, since threat range is only a component of the weapon itself
it's cool, have fun with your free attacks on 9-20
next question: can you score a threat on a opponent who is immune to critical hits, and thus gain an extra attack even though you can't actually get a crit? I would tend to think yes, since threat range is only a component of the weapon itself
Well, I know Blood in the Water works that way if it means anything.
JaronK
, so here is Argaud's archer:Wood elf machine-gun archer:
Fighter 1 Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Greatbow), Point Blank Shot
Fighter 2 Rapid Shot
Fighter 3 Precise Shot
Fighter 4 Weapon Focus (Greatbow), +1 Dex (17)
Fighter 5
Fighter 6 Manyshot, Improved rapid Shot
Fighter 7
Fighter 8 Weapon Specialization (Greatbow), +1 Dex (18)
Fighter 9 Ranged Weapon Mastery (Piercing)
Fighter 10 Greater Weapon Focus (Greatbow)
Fighter 11
Fighter 12 Improved Precise Shot, Greater Specialization (Greatbow), +1 Dex (19)
Fighter 13
Fighter 14 ACF - Resolute
Fighter 15 Improved Critical (Greatbow)
Fighter 16 Improved Initiative, +1 Dex (20)
Fighter 17
Fighter 18 Weapon Supremacy (Greatbow), True Believer (Elhona)
Fighter 19
Fighter 20 Far Shot
Base stats (26 points): Str 16, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 9
Final Dex 16 + 5 (levels) + 5 (book) + (6 item) = 32, +11 to hit
Strength 16 + 6 (item) = 22, +6 damage
Basic items: +5 Split, force composite longbow of strength, Hathan Mask of True Sight, slotless Dragon helm, item of spot +20, Greater Bracers of Archery, Ioun stone of +1 to hit, Boots of Haste, 6 raptor arrows. Usual defensive gear (floating shield with crystal of mind concealment, bracers of defense, ring of protection, amulet of health, cloak of resistance, etc).
To hit with +5 Split, Force Great Bow of strength +6:
+20 bab, +4 feats, +5 magic, +11 dex, +2 bracers, +1 ioun stone, +1 haste, +2 raptor arrows = +46 to hit.
Archer has 12 attacks (normal 4, +1 improved rapid shot, +1 haste, all multiplied by two with Split).
Full attack +46/46/46/46/46/46/41/41/36/36/31/31 and a +5 to one of the shots, take 10 in another, critic 19-20
Damage is 1d10 + 6 (strength) + 6 (feats) + 5 (magic) + 1 (bracers) + 2d6 (raptor arrows) = 33.5 average. ~39 with critical hits.
Full damage against the Tarrasque (or any AC35 enemy) is 446 hp/round.
Full round damage against an AC 40 enemy is 434 hp/round
Full round damage against an AC 45 enemy is 388 hp/round
Spot check +32, assuming 10 cross-class ranks and final wisdom 10. Cover that is not full cover is useless against him, and the range increases of the bow are 225'.
1, F: PBS, Precise
F: Rapid
3: WF
6: WS
W: Improved initiative/Quick Draw/Endurance/Die Hard/Combat Reflexes/Unnerving Calm/Whatever (probably Quick Draw simply to negate the issue of losing your weapon, although Improved Initiative is worth mentioning too)
9: RWM
12: Knowledge Devotion
15: Woodland Archery
18: Open
Open could be Weapon Proficiency: Greatbow (which would also make one-level dip in Exotic Weapon Master over a Fighter-level for Close-Combat Shot possible), Steadfast Determination, Martial Stance: Giant's Stance, Martial Stance: Stance of Alacrity, Improved Precise Shot (personal pick), True Believer (if not allowing Splitting bow), or any number of feats really. I suppose Improved Precise Shot belongs just for the ease of reference.
Maneuvers should be mostly White Raven and Diamond Mind with a touch of Iron Heart (Iron Heart Surge, Iron Heart Endurance, Iron Heart Focus?) and Tiger Claw (Sudden Leap, Dancing Mongoose, Blood in Water) added to the mix. White Raven gives him most of his usefulness outside the damage dealing, and White Raven Hammer is probably worth picking up anyways for those sitiuations where melee can't be avoided; the bow is Elvencraft so it's no issue to hit hard when in need.
All that said, the build would want Spot as a class skill. Perhaps the Fighter-levels would be better placed in Ranger for the skills. The lost feat would be the open one, although that would push the others back annoyingly. Ultimately, it may not even matter; you can locate the target through magical means before shooting the daylights out of him. Woodland Archery allows ignoring total concealment and quickly scales those attacks towards the end of the volley to start hitting.
The beauty of Eternal Blade is that basically all of its abilities can be used with ranged weapons; only Tactical Insight is limited to melee attacks.
Variants-Holy Warrior paladin variant (Complete Champion)
1-ranger1-power attack, point blank shot, track
2-ranger2-rapid shot
3-paladin1-true believer
4-paladin2
5-paladin3
6-paladin4-divine might, weapon focus: longbow
7-paladin5
8-pious templar1
9-pious templar2-precise shot
10-pious templar3-far shot
11-pious templar4-weapon specialization: longbow
12-ranger3-endurance, devoted tracker
13-ranger4
14-ranger5
15-ranger6-manyshot, improved initative
16-ranger7
17-ranger8
18-ranger9-improved rapid shot
19-ranger10
20-ranger11- improved precise shot
Note that divine might works with ranged attacks too.
3 smites a day as a 20th level paladin, divine grace with mettle and evasion, a mount with the combined abilities of a 5th level paladin mount and a 5th level druid animal companion (weak I know), decent amount of skill points and class skills needed for an archer, easily able to trasition between ranged and melee (though still would prefer to be in ranged).
Instead of Sudden Leap or whatever ... hows about a level of cleric? Fo-sho.
Defensive Rebuke looks amusing. You can item that though I suppose.
All that said, the build would want Spot as a class skill.
Aereni Focus is an elf-only regional feat which gives you a chosen skill as a class skill, +3 to all checks on it, and counts as skill focus for prereqs.
There is a factotum archer somewhere already ... Surreal, I thought it was in your index? Maybe not ... I'll find it ... I bookmarked it.
I don't recall any specific build threads... but I'm almost positive there's one in the handbook. I seem to recall a build with Master Throw/Bloodstorm Blade (and maybe Swash 3?) hucking out tons of little daggers with trips and combat rhythm or other some such nonsense. I guess that's more of a thrower build than an archer... potayto pothac0.
I was thinking something weird like Factotum/Soulknife/Soulbow zen archer pumping out the manyshots.
Do we have a list of maneuvers and such that can be used w/ archers? I remember one somewhere ... I'll see if my google-fu can find it.
I remember that thread too... and I could have sworn I grabbed it. Maybe it's buried in one of the compilation threads and not on its own?
oh wait, it's ultimate archer handbook
This leads to a hilarious archer race... Half Minotaur Goliath. To heck with the dex penalty, the huge sized bow gives an additional 50% to range, and your strength bonus is enough to make those shots count. Just make sure your DM doesn't calculate the speed your shots travel at, because they'd make a rolling sonic boom.
JaronK
Should you be having so many levels of Pious Templar in a mundane character, as PT 4 is about the same as having 6-8 levels of paladin for spellcasting (if i remember correctly)
Somewhat Off Topic
Also ... (as an aside) you realize that when the statement (fighter as archer is top notch) is made, it is referring to single class characters ... as usually hybrids (PrCs, multiclassing, etc) are more powerful than single classed characters.
The Ultimate Archer Handbook - Wizards Community - 2 visits - 5:03pm
The following martial maneuvers do not require melee attacks Desert Wind Blistering Flourish Distracting Ember Dragons Flame Fan the Flames Fire forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=947687 - 334k -
Alastar, which post?
Surreal: I wonder how that would work with Talashatora.
I think the "anti-fighter camp" stance is kind of exemplefied in a thread I just created on the CO board. It's called "CO Project: Fighter Archer"
I'd especially like Arguad's input.
I apologize if this seems too off topic.
Uhm, okay?
What is the question? “I'm kind of tired of the Fallacy that Fighters make excellent archers due to the weapon specialization line”?
Well, the +4 to hit and +6 to damage is very useful given arrows do relatively low damage. But fighters make good archers also because archery is quite feat intensive. But if you want a non-caster arched that is better than a pure fighter, multi-classing like a bastard is a good way to do it. Non-casters only win, win and win by multi-classing.
Still, a correctly buffed DMM-cleric is probably better, even if all he does is shooting arrows and only casts spells in the morning.
Edit: A Cleric 10/Chamaleon 10 build posted by Seerow ages ago (I am sorry, no link, and I am doubly sorry because I didn't copy-pasted the build in my HD) is the most devastating archer I have seen. The cleric was persistently polymoprhed into an arrow demon, among other things, and managed a base to hit in the mid-50s. He easily broke the 500 hp/round of damage shooting with two split bows at once.
Get back to me, bro :P
No build critique? Since you're the expert on fighter archers I was hoping for a critique and suggestions.
You flatter me, how could I refuse? ;)
Alright, it seems to me you managed to grab most of the good archery feats and add a lot of tricks to the handbag.
At level 20 your guy is missing (compared with a pure fighter) a +1 to hit and +2 to damage (but only if your guy can't manage to attack from above), the slightly superior greatbow, Supremacy and the possibility of ignoring all non-full cover when hitting someone (but that is not something that happens often).
In exchange he has ranger and paladin wand use, more skills and some martial maneuvers.
I don't think he is significantly better/worse at archery, but he certainly can do more things besides archery.
However, his progress is slower than a normal fighter's. Let me explain:
At level 6, for instance, a human pure fighter archer had Improved Intiative, Focus, Specialization, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot and Improved Rapid Shot. He is walking death for that level, likely outdamaging even twinked-out barbarian/fighter/warblade meleers.
Your archer has Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus, True Believer, Far Shot and Mountain Warrior. He probably can't take advantage of True Believer because Raptor Arrows are so expensive. He will only rarely be higher than their opponents (cheap flight is still some levels away). He still has a -2 to hit when using Rapid Shot, as Improved Rapid Shot comes at level 9. Specialization comes at 10 (6 levels later than the fighter). Mastery (+2,+2 is great!) at 12 (4 levels later). I have the faint impression your archer is running behind the pure fighter most of his career, although without seeing full builds it is very hard to judge it.
This does not mean he is not very formidable, though, because he obviously is a formidable warrior, just I don't see him better than a pure fighter as an archer.
Uhm, okay?
He easily broke the 500 hp/round of damage shooting with two split bows at once.
I can do that with only 1 bow and if i've added up properly, get about 1,000 damage. I will have to post my fighter maybe tomorrow or the next day though.
Also, raptor arrows aren't expensive. A +10 raptor arrow is 10,006 gp.
I can do that with only 1 bow and if i've added up properly, get about 1,000 damage. I will have to post my fighter maybe tomorrow or the next day though.
Also, raptor arrows aren't expensive. A +10 raptor arrow is 10,006 gp.
No, each arrow is 6,000 gold. They are relics. +1 arrows bane (everything) for someone with the feat.
No, each arrow is 6,000 gold. They are relics. +1 arrows bane (everything) for someone with the feat.
No, each raptor arrow can be upgraded like any other item. Raptor Arrows are +1 arrows that act as if they had bane for people with the true believe feat.
The +1 can be upgraded to +1 wounding holy collision magebane binding dispelling raptor arrow at very little cost. Producing a +10 arrow for 10,006 gp.
1) Keeping magical (as defined by AMFs for an easy guide) abilities granted by classes to a minimum.
2) Use full attacks at greater than 30'.
Bonus Points: Get ranged weapon mastery (PH2).
Bonus Points: No obscure material (use your judgement).
BP: Open race options.
The following has: Minimum magical abilities from classes, Full attacks at greater than 30', Ranged Weapon Mastery.
Most obscure material is Races of Eberron.
Race is Human, Talenta Halfling or any with 1 Flaw.
Boomerang Madness
1-Fighter1 Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Talenta boomerang)*, Point Blank Shot
2-Fighter2 Precise Shot
3-Ranger 1 (Favored Enemy, Wild Empathy) Track, Weapon Focus(Talenta boomerang)
4-Ranger 2 Rapid Shot
5-Warblade1 (Punishing Stance, Steel Wind, Emerald Razor, Moment of Perfect Mind)
6-Bloodstormblade1 (Returning Attacks), Throw Anything, Boomerang Daze
7-Bloodstormblade2 (Martial throw, THUNDEROUS THROW)
8-Bloodstormblade3 Power Attack
9-Bloodstormblade4 (Lightning Ricochet->this allows free returning full attacks *without* having to expend iron heart strikes), Two Weapon Fighting**
10-Master Thrower1 (Trip shot), Quick Draw
11-Master Thrower2 (Evasion)
12-Master Thrower3 (Two with One Blow), Brutal Throw
13-Master Thrower4 Snatch Arrows
14-Master Thrower5 (Critical throw, WEAK SPOT)
15-Bloodstormblade5 (Blood wind ricochet), Power Throw->This will allow you to never have to decide between using a counter/magic item and using Thunderous Throw.
16-Bloodstormblade6 Weapon Specialization(Talenta Boomerang)
17-Bloodstormblade7 (Eye of the storm)
18-Bloodstormblade8 (Blood rain), Ranged Weapon Mastery(Bludgeoning)
19-Bloodstormblade9 Far Shot/any Fighter Feat
20-Bloodstormblade10 (Blade storm)
*Halfling from Talenta region gets EWP: Talenta Boomerang (effectively) for free
Humans can just take the feat with their bonus feat. All other races will want a Flaw if possible.
**Gloves of the Balanced Hand improves this to Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Stances:
Combine Thunderous Throw + Punishing Stance or Brutal and Power Throw + Eye of the Storm for best use.
Maneuvers:
Emerald Razor: Your bread and butter against large single threats starting level 8 up until level 14. Nearly guaranteed to Daze an opponent with Power Attack + Thunderous Throw. Ideally usable every other round with the off round being a full attack while recovering the maneuver.
Moment of Perfect Mind: It’s worth losing a turn of awesome to not turn against your friends mid combat.
Steel Wind: Let’s hope you never have to use this.
Misc. Gear:
Desirable:
-Gauntlets of Extended Range-MIC 103 x2 range increment 2,000 gold.
-Ring of Adamantine Touch, Gauntlets of Weaponry Arcane and Sure Striking Weapon enhancement for overcoming adamantine, silver and alignment based DR respectively.
-Collision Weapon Enhancement
-Crystal of Energy(Acid) Assault, Lesser(MIC)
-Gloves of the Balanced Hand-MIC 105 Free ITWF for those with TWF. 8,000 gold.
Optional:
-Distance Weapon Enhancement-DMG x2 range increment +1 market
-Helm of the Hunter-MIC 194 Benefits of Far Shot feat 9,000 gold.
Custom:
-Gloves of Endless Boomerangs-based off Gloves of Endless Javelins MIC 194 but produces a +1 Talenta Boomerangs as free actions which last 1 round.
Notes:
-With gear, you can achieve a range increment of 150/200 ft. Range Increment is still 100 ft in anti-magic field.
-All abilities are Ex. AMFs lower damage potential, but DC 10+1d4+Str+4(WS+RMW)+PA for Boomerang Daze is still respectable.
-7 attacks on a Full Attack 4+1(rapid shot)+2(ITWF)
-Nice capstone: Blade Storm + Weak Spot + Power Throw + 100+ft Range Increment = Hellz Yeah
-High Strength and Dex 15 are required, but aside from Int 12(or 10 for human) for skill points to get the necessary ranks in Balance, mental stats can be dumped.
2-Fighter2 Precise Shot
3-Ranger 1 (Favored Enemy, Wild Empathy) Track, Weapon Focus(Talenta boomerang)
4-Ranger 2 Rapid Shot
5-Warblade1 (Punishing Stance, Steel Wind, Emerald Razor, Moment of Perfect Mind)
6-Bloodstormblade1 (Returning Attacks), Throw Anything, Boomerang Daze
7-Bloodstormblade2 (Martial throw, THUNDEROUS THROW)
8-Bloodstormblade3 Power Attack
9-Bloodstormblade4 (Lightning Ricochet->this allows free returning full attacks *without* having to expend iron heart strikes), Two Weapon Fighting**
10-Master Thrower1 (Trip shot), Quick Draw
11-Master Thrower2 (Evasion)
12-Master Thrower3 (Two with One Blow), Brutal Throw
13-Master Thrower4 Snatch Arrows
14-Master Thrower5 (Critical throw, WEAK SPOT)
15-Bloodstormblade5 (Blood wind ricochet), Power Throw->This will allow you to never have to decide between using a counter/magic item and using Thunderous Throw.
16-Bloodstormblade6 Weapon Specialization(Talenta Boomerang)
17-Bloodstormblade7 (Eye of the storm)
18-Bloodstormblade8 (Blood rain), Ranged Weapon Mastery(Bludgeoning)
19-Bloodstormblade9 Far Shot/any Fighter Feat
20-Bloodstormblade10 (Blade storm)
*Halfling from Talenta region gets EWP: Talenta Boomerang (effectively) for free
Humans can just take the feat with their bonus feat. All other races will want a Flaw if possible.
**Gloves of the Balanced Hand improves this to Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Stances:
Combine Thunderous Throw + Punishing Stance or Brutal and Power Throw + Eye of the Storm for best use.
Maneuvers:
Emerald Razor: Your bread and butter against large single threats starting level 8 up until level 14. Nearly guaranteed to Daze an opponent with Power Attack + Thunderous Throw. Ideally usable every other round with the off round being a full attack while recovering the maneuver.
Moment of Perfect Mind: It’s worth losing a turn of awesome to not turn against your friends mid combat.
Steel Wind: Let’s hope you never have to use this.
Misc. Gear:
Desirable:
-Gauntlets of Extended Range-MIC 103 x2 range increment 2,000 gold.
-Ring of Adamantine Touch, Gauntlets of Weaponry Arcane and Sure Striking Weapon enhancement for overcoming adamantine, silver and alignment based DR respectively.
-Collision Weapon Enhancement
-Crystal of Energy(Acid) Assault, Lesser(MIC)
-Gloves of the Balanced Hand-MIC 105 Free ITWF for those with TWF. 8,000 gold.
Optional:
-Distance Weapon Enhancement-DMG x2 range increment +1 market
-Helm of the Hunter-MIC 194 Benefits of Far Shot feat 9,000 gold.
Custom:
-Gloves of Endless Boomerangs-based off Gloves of Endless Javelins MIC 194 but produces a +1 Talenta Boomerangs as free actions which last 1 round.
Notes:
-With gear, you can achieve a range increment of 150/200 ft. Range Increment is still 100 ft in anti-magic field.
-All abilities are Ex. AMFs lower damage potential, but DC 10+1d4+Str+4(WS+RMW)+PA for Boomerang Daze is still respectable.
-7 attacks on a Full Attack 4+1(rapid shot)+2(ITWF)
-Nice capstone: Blade Storm + Weak Spot + Power Throw + 100+ft Range Increment = Hellz Yeah
-High Strength and Dex 15 are required, but aside from Int 12(or 10 for human) for skill points to get the necessary ranks in Balance, mental stats can be dumped.
Ranger 6/ Pious Templar 4/ Fighter 2/ Cragtop Archer 4/ Warblade 1/ Crusader 1/ Battle Trickster 2
ACF: Champion of the Wild
1) PBS
2) Rapidshot
3) Precise
4) WF: Longbow
6) Manyshot, true believer
9) Weapon Spec, RWM
10) Imp. Rapidshot
11) Woodland Archer
12) Far shot, mountain warrior
15) Imp. Init
18) EWP
20) Something?
Critique?
Weapon focus is an illegal target for Champion of the Wild. Swap WF with Precise Shot and you're good to go.
Is Manyshot a prereq? Otherwise it's very deadweight, IMHO.
Ranged Disarm might have good synergy with Woodland Archery's crazy bonus to attack rolls. Have your last attack(s) be a disarm since you'll have +awesome on the opposed attack roll.
Edit: Ranged Disarm is only usable within 30 ft. sadly, but the theory is still sound.
If you're still using Blood in the Water, Power Critical may be an option for you. Greatbow is a terrible weapon for the price of a feat. +1 average damage =/= Win.
next question: can you score a threat on a opponent who is immune to critical hits, and thus gain an extra attack even though you can't actually get a crit?
Yes. Your opponent never stops you from successfully hitting that special place for the crit, he is just immune to the effect it would normally cause.
Just like vorpals still cut off heads and burst weapons still fire on crity immune mobs. They just do not take the bonus MELEE damage.
Lets assume he doesn't take any flight feats apart from, say, hover.
Targeteer varient ignoring the feat restriction (since its an old varient from dragon magazine) http://www.the6elements.com/setting/additional/Variant%20Fighters.pdf
using the arrow storm and vital aim substitutions.
These are his feats (In no particular order)
Multishot
Rapid Shot
Point Blank Shot,
Precise Shot
Improved Rapidshot
Weapon Focus (Composite Longbow),
G. Wpn. Focus (Comp longbow)
Weapon Specialisation (Composite Longbow),
Improved Precise Shot
Greater Wpn Specialisation (Composite Longbow),
Plunging Shot
Ranged Weapon Mastery (Piercing)
Weapon Supremecy (Comp Longbow)
Woodland Archer
Vital Aim
Hover
Far Shot*
True Believer (Ehlonna)
Arrow Storm
Now, he has 32 Dex and +54 to hide (but we'll ignore that since we're just going for damage here.
Here is his bow:
+3 Bow of the Solars (+4 Strength) +3 of Splitting Collision
Now, you can add whatever you want to make it plus 10 (such as force).
Assuming he has an item that gives him haste (not unreasonable), he gets 14 attacks per round (7 split into 14). He also has a greater acid augment crystal and greater bracers of archery and goggles of the ebon hunter and a piercer cloak.
Raptor Arrow +1 Binding Sacred Sacred Burst Ghost Touch Ghost Strike Fiercebane Incorporeal Binding Illusion Bane Illusion Theft – 10,006 gp
’The Ghostly Ward’
Raptor Arrow +1 Consumtive Burst Ennervating Soulbreaker Stygian Vampiric – 10,006 gp
’The Lifedrinker’
Raptor Arrow +1 Warning Resounding Parrying Lucky Eager Distance Banishing Illuminating Vanishing – 10,176 gp
’The Helping Arrow’
Raptor Arrow +1 Magebane Dispelling Greater Dispelling Impedance Shattermantle Revealing Binding Weakening –10,006 gp
’Mage Slayer’
Raptor Arrow +1 Corrosive Flaming Frost Shock Screaming Psychokinetic Energy Aura Stunning Prismatic Burst– 10,606 gp
’The Energy Arrow’
Raptor Arrow +1 Wounding Implacable Maiming Bloodfeeding Blindsighted Sizing –10,106 gp
’The Hunting Arrow’
Raptor Arrow +1 Brilliant Energy Mettaline Shadow Striking – 10,006 gp
’The Accurate Arrow’
Raptor Arrow +1 Holy Axiomatic Holy Auran Aquan Aquatic – 10,046 gp
Ok, so, now we know what arrows he is using.
Now, lets say he is exactly 30 ft above the enemy, hovering, and that the target is not immune to critical hits.
Now, lets calculate what each arrow does with only the bow enhancements, plus the bane effect.
1d8 (from bow) + 2d6 (bane) + 2 (bane) + 3 (+3 weapon) + 1 (Greater bracers of archery) +1 (Goggles of the Ebon Hunter) + 5 (Collision) + 11 (Dex) +6 (feats) +1 (Point Blank Shot) +1d6 (Acid augment Crystal) +1d6 (Plunging feat)
Now, that gives us 1d8+4d6+30 per shot.
Now, assuming all 14 hit (not too unreasonable), that gives us (without the added arrow enhancement) 14d8+56d6+420 per hit. Now, lets not calculate that yet. First lets add on all the arrow enhancements.
+2d8 (negative energy) + 2d6 (Vampiric) + 2d6 (Corrosive) + 2d6 (Flaming) + 2d6 (Frost) + 2d6 (Shock) +2d6 (energy aura) +2d4 (screaming) +2d4 (Psychokinetic) +4 (Eager) + 2 con.
Now lets assume I am not doing anything special with my bows by activating a specific property and instead activate my piercer cloak.
+14d6
Now lets add all that on (damage caused to a 20 HD creature).
16d8+82d6+4d4+424 = 813 average damage.
Now if it was a chaotic evil creature that could cast arcane spells, and we didn't fire the accurate arrow, that adds an extra 12d6.
Thats 855 average damage against a chaotic evil creature thats arcane-y.
This is without crits. I have at least a 50% chance to crit at least once, which would result in probably over 900 damage.
Also, each time a creature is hit by an arrow, it must make a DC 20 fortitude save or die (or, if undead or construct, make a DC 20 Fortitude save or be destroyed).
AND, the creature hit can't magically travel through teleportation, plane shift, and the like (No save).
A targeted greater dispel magic on the creature at +20...twice.
If i care do do so, prismatic spray cast on every hit.
Spell resistance decreased by 4.
Must make checks to cast spells.
Lit up in a faerie fire.
If incorporeal, lose your incorporeal benefits of 50% miss chances.
Have a chance of dealing 4 negative level drains (2 crits)
Dispel and absorb any illusion.
Maybe more.
How's that for easily getting passed the 500 damage mark.
How's that for easily getting passed the 500 damage mark.
Doesn't seem like a very representative damage mark. I see a lot of ifs and circumstantial stuff going on.
Or at least, how they are priced.
Basically you take the base price, in the case of raptor arrow, 6006, then add (CLxspell levelx400)(this is the cl and the spell level required to be spent to use the relic) 11200 in this case.
This is a base raptor arrow.
Now since it is considered a single weapon, due to the fact that it is not expandable, your +10 raptor arrow would cost 204006 gp, for one. Not so hawt if you ask me.
Relics lower cost is a fixed amount, not a percentage.
And just saying: i broke the 2500 damage mark with my gatling bowgun build.
Doesn't seem like a very representative damage mark. I see a lot of ifs and circumstantial stuff going on.
First, the only conditional things are the magebane arrow and the holy arrow.
Flying 30 ft above someone isnt too hard, heck, flying above someone at all works.
The only reason its exactly 30 ft is so that I can utilise PBS and and piercer cloak. I can just as easily take PBS away.
If you can tell me what you find as 'too conditional' then we'll explore that
First, the only conditional things are the magebane arrow and the holy arrow.
Flying 30 ft above someone isnt too hard, heck, flying above someone at all works.
The only reason its exactly 30 ft is so that I can utilise PBS and and piercer cloak. I can just as easily take PBS away.
If you can tell me what you find as 'too conditional' then we'll explore that
The fact that your assuming +10 raptor arrows cost 10 000?
By the way, i figured out how relics work
Or at least, how they are priced.
Basically you take the base price, in the case of raptor arrow, 6006, then add (CLxspell levelx400)(this is the cl and the spell level required to be spent to use the relic) 11200 in this case.
This is a base raptor arrow.
Now since it is considered a single weapon, due to the fact that it is not expandable, your +10 raptor arrow would cost 204006 gp, for one. Not so hawt if you ask me.
Relics lower cost is a fixed amount, not a percentage.
And just saying: i broke the 2500 damage mark with my gatling bowgun build.
No. A +10 raptor arrow does not cost 204006 gp. It costs 10,006 gp.
The price given for magic weapon properties is the price for 50 arrows. Meaning 1 +10 arrow costs 4,000 gp. Guess what, raptor arrows are arrows. A +10 raptor arrow costs 10,006 gp.
The fact that your assuming +10 raptor arrows cost 10 000?
Which they do. Look in the DMG on the price of arrows. A magical arrow costs 50x less than a magical weapon (when applying enhancement bonuses)
It is more akin to thrown weapons with returning property. Thus, it costs as much as one.
This is to prevent some abuse.... like.... i dunno..... someone buying 5 +10 raptor arrows ?
Hmm hmmmm, yeah, except your considering EXPENDABLE arrows. This one isnt, so if we go by the pricings in the DMG, it's price has just gone skyrocketing.
It is more akin to thrown weapons with returning property. Thus, it costs as much as one.
This is to prevent some abuse.... like.... i dunno..... someone buying 5 +10 raptor arrows ?
Quote me the rules that says this particular arrow is enhanced differently than any other arrow.
The DMG doesn't differentiate between expendable and non-expendable arrows. So, by RAW, a +10 raptor arrow costs 10,006 gp.
And I bought 8 +10 raptor arrows :P.
There are none.
You're just assuming you divide the full price by 50, this is not RAW.
The fact that a raptor arrow is not expendable makes it count as a normal throwing weapon, according to me, or else why would it be priced at 6006? If the base arrow is 40 gold, then that means the whole effect is worth 17166. Now i know that this benefits you a lot, so your gonna argue for it. But the fact remains that it would be WAY more logical to consider the arrow being a +2 weapon already with a special returning property costing 9206.
quote me the rules taht say you can buy a +10 arrow for 4000?
There are none.
Page 222 DMG.
Base Price for +10 weapon, 200,000 gp*.
*there is a 1 next to base price, which it says underneath "This is the price for 50 arrows, crossbow bolts, or sling bullets.
So, 50 +10 arrows costs 200,000 gp.
1 +10 arrow costs 200,000/50 = 4,000 gp.
Page 222 DMG.
Base Price for +10 weapon, 200,000 gp*.
*there is a 1 next to base price, which it says underneath "This is the price for 50 arrows, crossbow bolts, or sling bullets.
So, 50 +10 arrows costs 200,000 gp.
1 +10 arrow costs 200,000/50 = 4,000 gp.
No, that's RAI.
you can't buy single arrows according to RAW.
If you're going to be a douche for RAW, so can I!
No, that's RAI.
you can't buy single arrows according to RAW.
If you're going to be a douche for RAW, so can I!
Of course you can buy a single arrow by RAW.
You go to a shop, and you see 50 +10 arrows.
To shopkeeper: I'll have 1 of those +10 arrows please.
Shopkeeper: Certainly Sir, that will be 4,000 gp.
and let me rephrase that exemple:
Hello sir, i would take one of your +1 greater dispelleing holy magebane force arrows.
Sir, this cost one of my wizards a great deal of time and effort, you either buy the pack at 200000gp or you don't.
Furthermore, that's only considering he DOES have the arrow.
Screaming bolt.
A screaming bolt is a +2 bolt with an extra effect added on to it.
Yet, a screaming bolt is not 8,000 gp + the cost of the extra effect.
You can buy a single screaming bolt for 267 gp.
I win.
I win.
If we're going to be saying meaningless words, I'll partake in it too.
Therefore, by RAW, a +10 raptor arrow is 10,006 gp.
A) The DMG doesnt differentiate between the cost of expendable and non expendable ammuntion.
B) The DMG says on page 222 that 50 +10 ammunition cost 200,000, making 1 +10 ammuntion cost 200,000/50 = 4,000 gp.
C) On page 227 of the DMG is a piece of ammunition that is a +2 ammuntion, but costs 267 gp instead of 8,000 gp + the extra effect of the ammunition. These ammuntion are bought singally for 267 gp each.
I think that pretty much proves my point.
Edit: D) I Win :P
Yes it is expended after it's use, but the DMG doesn't differentiate in cost between a piece of ammunition that is expendable and a piece of ammunition that is non-expendable.
Therefore, by RAW, a +10 raptor arrow is 10,006 gp.
Ah, custom magic items. Gloves of True Strike anyone? But anyways:
Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to match the new item to an item that is already priced that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Price Values.
A) The DMG doesnt differentiate between the cost of expendable and non expendable ammuntion.
B) The DMG says on page 222 that 50 +10 ammunition cost 200,000, making 1 +10 ammuntion cost 200,000/50 = 4,000 gp.
C) On page 227 of the DMG is a piece of ammunition that is a +2 ammuntion, but costs 267 gp instead of 8,000 gp + the extra effect of the ammunition. These ammuntion are bought singally for 267 gp each.
I think that pretty much proves my point.
Edit: D) I Win :P
Not all items adhere to these formulas directly. The reasons for this are several. First and foremost, these few formulas aren’t enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staffs follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls.
So no, you don't win.
Quote from MIC, on the Specific Weapons section, wherein the Raptor Arrow is location.
The following weapons are usualy constructed with the properties described here. You can increase the enhancement bonus of these weapons or add more special properties just as you would for any other item.
Emphasis Mine. I add the extra +9 enhancement bonuses on just like I would other ammunition.
I agree.
@dawnbringer: Please get the fvck out of my thread. This is the board for build discussion, not RAIWTTBAYAW magic item discussion.
So yeah, If you want to boost your damage a bit with your build, giant's stance is a .... gigantic.... leap in the right direction.
you make a point for strongarm bracer, but it denies you the much needed bracers of archery (greater)
and it's still an increase of 4.5 damage on a greatbow. if you do around 14 attacks in a round, that's roughyl 50 damage more.
It's not a custom magic item though. It's applying weapon enhancements to the item.
So... you're going to customize an item with abilities that it doesn't have as printed... but it's not a custom item?
Quote from MIC, on the Specific Weapons section, wherein the Raptor Arrow is location.
Emphasis Mine. I add the extra +9 enhancement bonuses on just like I would other ammunition.
Guess what? That's under the creating new items section, which follows the above sections of the SRD that I quoted you. In fact why don't you open up your Magic Item Compendium, turn to page 233 and read that side bar at the bottom of the page?
The magic item prices in this book aren't the result of any intricate formulas or detailed equations. Instead, each price is set individually by comparing the item ... to other items commonly used by the PCs.
To wit, you basically can't be more wrong.
I've also occasionally kicked around a paladin with Divine Might, Persistent spell and Zen archery.
archerpwr, have you considered a rogue 20 build based around the Greater Manyshot feat?
I've also occasionally kicked around a paladin with Divine Might, Persistent spell and Zen archery.
Don't be MAD, be a Duskling and take Charming the Arrow (here, scroll down bit).
Don't be MAD, be a Duskling and take Charming the Arrow (here, scroll down bit).
Ironically I've got a little better trick up my sleeve that doesn't stack with the feat. ;) Still a very cool feat I was not aware of.
Sorry archerpwr, but I just have to address this one last time.
So... you're going to customize an item with abilities that it doesn't have as printed... but it's not a custom item?
Guess what? That's under the creating new items section, which follows the above sections of the SRD that I quoted you. In fact why don't you open up your Magic Item Compendium, turn to page 233 and read that side bar at the bottom of the page?
To wit, you basically can't be more wrong.
On top of that, and with an apology to Archerpwr for the off-topic-ness...
Raptor Arrows are not arrows +1 at all.
They are Returning, Reusable, Bane everything +1 arrows.
There is not a price for a "reusable" quality of ammo, so I am going to ignore it for the sake of simplicity. Returning is a +1 bonus (except it can be put only in throwing weapons, which makes the arrows illegal), Bane is also +1 bonus... for each creature, so +32 in total going by the SRD list of bane-able creatures.
Therefore Raptor Arrows are +34 weapons. Costs need to be calculated using epic magical items prices. 50 of them are work about 23 million gp, or about half a million gp each. Even with a nice discount because of the limitation that they can be used only by giving up a spell or taking a feat, this would be much more than the stated cost of 6,006 gp in the MIC. Good thing they are relics and therefore ignore normal magical items cost, uh? :D
Also, I strongly suggest Improved Precise Shot; ignoring all concealment and cover save for total is pretty friggin' awesome.
I'd almost suggest Improved Critical as the level 18 feat. At that point the character should be shooting 12 arrows/round and should be hitting with 6-10 of them, so one critical hit each round is pretty much assured.
Ranger 6/ Pious Templar 4/ Fighter 2/ Cragtop Archer 4/ Warblade 1/ Crusader 1/ Battle Trickster 2
ACF: Champion of the Wild
1) PBS
2) Rapidshot
3) WF: Longbow
4) Precise
6) Manyshot, true believer
9) Weapon Spec, RWM
10) Imp. Rapidshot
11) Woodland Archer
12) Far shot, mountain warrior
15) Imp. Init
18) Something?
20) Something?
Critique? Suggestions on the last two feats?
Sorry, but can you tell me why the above is better than Fighter 20, in archery? Maybe listing the maneuvers / stances you will be taking to help?
Or maybe list some of the ranger / paladin swift action spells that you put in a wand (from arms + equipment (or is that only 3.0?))
Maneuver: Dancing Mongoose (Extra attack at no penalty).
Maneuver: White Raven Tactics (go twice mr. wizard).
Paly/ranger 3: Find the Gap (rd/lvl)
Just be careful to buy enough martial equipment, as those have some pre-reqs (i believe)
I hate taking improved crit when keen is in play. AFB, but how about this:
EWP:Greatbow at 18
Replace battle trickster with EWM 1 for flurry and cap with a level of... something.
You don't qualify for RWM (4 Fighter-levels) with the said build and Flurry can only be applied to Exotic Double Weapons and Spiked Chain. I suggest you replace 2 Ranger-levels with Fighter to qualify, or take more Warblade earlier. EWM gives you Close-Combat Shot, but that's about it. Also, Improved Precise Shot is a feat you probably want.
Pious Templar grants weapon spec and RWM doesn't require fighter levels.
Woah, MB. I always read Masteries as "+8 BAB, Weapon Spec and Fighter 4"; I guess I just added the Fighter 4 there 'cause I figured that's the easiest way to get Weapon Spec. Ignore that then.
Warblade gets raging mongoose without item help. Crusader gets WRT without item help.
That said, items would help grab ironheart surge.
Not Ragging Mongoose. That one needs IL15, the character has just 9. Good enough for Dancing Mongoose, though (requiring 2 other Tiger Claw maneuvers, which you can fill with Blood in the Water and some other).
Dancing Mongoose gives on extra attack for one swift action. Yet as an archer it is not easy to refresh warblade maneuvers, so it is not as hot as it would be for a meleer.
Blood In the Water is not so good either. Some math will show you get ~1 critical round with Improved Critical (or a Keen bow). Combat won't last long enough to get a decent bonus from the stance. However, having a stance opens up using a bow with the "of Discipline" property, getting a nice +3 to hit at the cost of a +1 enhancement bonus.
Ranger 6/ Pious Templar 4/ Fighter 2/ Cragtop Archer 4/ Warblade 1/ Crusader 1/ Battle Trickster 2
ACF: Champion of the Wild
1) PBS
2) Rapidshot
3) WF: Longbow
4) Precise
6) Manyshot, true believer
9) Weapon Spec, RWM
10) Imp. Rapidshot
11) Woodland Archer
12) Far shot, mountain warrior
15) Imp. Init
18) Something?
20) Something?
Critique? Suggestions on the last two feats?
Can you also post the skills/etc ... as this buid is looking like it might be somewhat skill starved due to the demands for concentration (without which, the one maneuver is basically useless), knowedge (religion), etc ...
Basically, how flexible can this thing be -- or does it need to spend all/most of the skill points at each level? What are it's sweet levels?
For comparison
Fighter 20
1) PBS
F1) Rapidshot
F2) WF: Longbow
3) Precise
f4) Manyshot
6) True Believer
F6) Weapon Spec,
F8)RWM
9) Imp. Rapidshot
F10) Woodland Archer -- unsure what this is -- some comparable feat?
12) Far shot,
F12) mountain warrior -- unsure what this is -- some comparable feat?
F14) Imp. Init
15) Something?
F16) Something?
F18) Something?
18) Something
F20) Something
This is why I am asking what else the build brings to the mix ... to which the following was said
Maneuver: Dancing Mongoose (Extra attack at no penalty). -- this gives one attack/encounter (basically, as for an archer, it is a wasted round to recover).
Stance: Blood in the water (+1 TH&Dmg/crit). -- this gives marginal benefits - but is duplicate by a fighter bonus feat. (using a martial item to qualify, this plus the martial item qualifies for Dancing Mongoose ... taken as a higher level fighter bonus feat)
Maneuver: White Raven Tactics (go twice mr. wizard). -- unsure of the benefit of this, as the range is 10' -- does the wizard and archer want to be clumped this close?
Paly/ranger 3: Find the Gap (rd/lvl) -- this is good. unsure how to duplicate this.
All: the reason I am doing this, is for you to prove that "fighters-as-archers are superior" is a fallacy, you need to compare your build to a straight fighter. I am not trolling.
Fighter 20
1) PBS
F1) Rapidshot
F2) WF: Longbow
3) Precise
f4) Manyshot
6) True Believer
F6) Weapon Spec,
F8)RWM
9) Imp. Rapidshot
F10) Woodland Archer -- unsure what this is -- some comparable feat?
12) Far shot,
F12) mountain warrior -- unsure what this is -- some comparable feat?
F14) Imp. Init
15) Something?
F16) Something?
F18) Something?
18) Something
F20) Something
This is why I am asking what else the build brings to the mix ... to which the following was said
Maneuver: Dancing Mongoose (Extra attack at no penalty). -- this gives one attack/encounter (basically, as for an archer, it is a wasted round to recover).
Stance: Blood in the water (+1 TH&Dmg/crit). -- this gives marginal benefits - but is duplicate by a fighter bonus feat. (using a martial item to qualify, this plus the martial item qualifies for Dancing Mongoose ... taken as a higher level fighter bonus feat)
Maneuver: White Raven Tactics (go twice mr. wizard). -- unsure of the benefit of this, as the range is 10' -- does the wizard and archer want to be clumped this close?
Paly/ranger 3: Find the Gap (rd/lvl) -- this is good. unsure how to duplicate this.
All: the reason I am doing this, is for you to prove that "fighters-as-archers are superior" is a fallacy, you need to compare your build to a straight fighter. I am not trolling.
Skills should be pretty open. I believe everything except fighter is at least 4+int. I hadn't assumed any daimond mind. Woodland archer is quite possibly the best archer full attack feat ever printed. Mountain warrior is a dead feat.
Low levels, skills appear to be predefined. Once the prereqs for the PrCs are taken care of, then you are correct, they are wide open again.
Btw ... compare your archer with the pure figher one I posted. Do you feel that you have passed the fighter yet?
Ranger 6/ Pious Templar 4/ Fighter 2/ Cragtop Archer 4/ Warblade 1/ Crusader 1/ Battle Trickster 2
Show
ACF: Champion of the Wild
1) PBS
2) Rapidshot
3) WF: Longbow
4) Precise
6) Manyshot, true believer
9) Weapon Spec, RWM
10) Imp. Rapidshot
11) Woodland Archer
12) Far shot, mountain warrior
15) Imp. Init
18) Something?
20) Something?
1) PBS
2) Rapidshot
3) WF: Longbow
4) Precise
6) Manyshot, true believer
9) Weapon Spec, RWM
10) Imp. Rapidshot
11) Woodland Archer
12) Far shot, mountain warrior
15) Imp. Init
18) Something?
20) Something?
Thoughts on Wildrunner (RotW)? It forces the race into wood elf, but fast movement and +3 TH +1 dmg a couple encounters per day seem good. Better than battle trickster anyway.
i would absolutely take Wildrunner at least 2 levels:
try this:
Wood Elf
Ranger 6/ Pious Templar 4/ Fighter 2/ Cragtop Archer 4/ Warblade 1/ Crusader 1/ Wildrunner 2
ACF: Champion of the Wild
1) PBS
2) Rapidshot
3) WF: Longbow, Endurance(ranger bonus)
4) Precise
6) Manyshot, true believer
9) Weapon Spec, RWM
10) Imp. Rapidshot
11) Woodland Archer
12) Far shot, mountain warrior
15) Imp. Init
18) Improved Precise Shot
20) Plunging Shot or Skewer Foe(champions of Ruin?...1d6 extra damage with piercing Weapon)
Woodland Archer[Tactical, Fighter](RotW p154)req: Point Blank Shot Base Attack Bonus +6
You may use the following 3 tactical maneuvers:[indent]
Adjust for Range – If you miss a foe with a projectile weapon, you gain a +4 bonus on all other attacks in the same round to hit the same foe.
Pierce the Foliage – If you hit a foe with a Miss Chance due to Concealment with a ranged attack, you can ignore the Miss Chance against the same foe in the following round.
Moving Sniper – If you succeed in a Sniping Attack (i.e., hit your foe and make a Hide check to remain hidden), the following round you can make a single attack, take a Move Action (normally not allowed), and then make a Hide check to remain hidden. As long as you remain unseen, you can continue making Sniping Attacks.
Mountain Warrior[General](RoS p142)req:Base Attack Bonus +3, Survival: 5 ranks
+1 bonus to attack rolls on ranged attacks made from higher ground.
+1 bonus to damage rolls on melee attacks made from higher ground.
Opponents making a melee attack from higher ground do not receive the normal +1 to attack roll.
+2 bonus on Balance checks made when moving on steep slopes.
:D
try this instead:
Wood Elf
Ranger 6/ Pious Templar 4/ Fighter 2/ Cragtop Archer 3/ Warblade 1/ Crusader 2/ Wildrunner 2
ACF: Champion of the Wild
1) PBS
2) Rapidshot
3) WF: Longbow, Endurance(ranger bonus)
4) Precise
6) Manyshot, true believer
9) Weapon Spec, RWM
10) Imp. Rapidshot
11) Woodland Archer
12) Far shot, mountain warrior
15) Imp. Init
18) Improved Precise Shot
the last level of Crusader at 20th... to get several High level Manuvers(6th lvl manuvers)... or another level of Warblade instead
:D
this:
Ranger 6/ Pious Templar 4/ Fighter 2/ Cragtop Archer 4/ Warblade 1/ Crusader 1/ Battle Trickster 2ShowACF: Champion of the Wild
1) PBS
2) Rapidshot
3) WF: Longbow
4) Precise
6) Manyshot, true believer
9) Weapon Spec, RWM
10) Imp. Rapidshot
11) Woodland Archer
12) Far shot, mountain warrior
15) Imp. Init
18) Something?
20) Something?
Animal Companions blow.
Polite statement of disagreement.
JaronK
Equipment: The same stuff a fighter would get. No difference would help ftr
You cannot optimize a martial adept melee without taking into account their stance weaponry (I forget the enhancement, but it is cheaper than upgrading the bow, but only works while in the stance or using the maneuver)
On the flip side, surprisingly enough, a non-martial character uses martial magic items better than a martial one.
Reason being, the non-martial character gets a use of it per combat. The non-martial character has to choose it, replacing one that they get normally.
So the items/etc would be similar, but not identical (i.e. if a 20th level character an spend 3000 and duplicate a maneuver close enough to a martial character, then the maneuver is not a bonus)
the reason Why:
far better Skills
Far Better Saves
Far better Class Abilities:
[indent]Mettle
1/2 Spot penalties
1/2 Range Penalties
15 Range increments
Animal Companion
Lots of Manuvers and Stances... and RECOVERY ability[/indent]
thats the quick list .... there is more
:D
What has that have to do with archery, again?
IIRC archery implies hitting people with pointy things at distance. Usually to kill the quickly. Having spells, great saves, being a master swordsman or having a solar cohort is nice, but is unrelated to archery.
I think that if Archerpwr wanted to know what is the most powerful character with a bow we could have told him Pun-Pun + a bow and stop there. Or maybe druid 10/planar shepard 10, with a bow.
However, if the question is "how can I build a character able to outdamage this fighter most levels of a 1-20 progression while using a bow?" (Correct me if I am wrong, Archerpwr) I think a serious analysis of what that Ranger 6/ Pious Templar 4/ Fighter 2/ Cragtop Archer 4/ Warblade 1/ Crusader 1/ Battle Trickster 2 can really do at low, mid and high levels is needed. And compare it with the fighter.
Keep in mind, I am not trolling, and do not want to turn this into a fighter/non-fighter thread ... I legitimately would like to see the effort it takes to outdo a single classed fighter -- as well as what the pay-off is. However, to see the outcome, I need to undertstand it better.
no problem ... i am familiar with your posting style
Comments:
The OP wanted a build that he could quickly link to when showing that fighter-as-archer is worse than a different build. When people normally talk about archery, they are usually referring to within 3 range increments -- or at least, based on the conversations I have been in, people complain when combat starts further away than 3 range increments ...
So the 15 range increment thing ... is a non-used ability
Archery is not just firing Arrows ..... there is a lot more to it
the range Increments come into play according to Terrain, in a Dungeon setting most encounters occur 60' or less ..... in Urban settings, many encounters are 120' and less .... in Wilderness things change greatly .... you can have encounters starting from many different distances:
[indent] In a sparse forest, the maximum distance at which a Spot check for detecting the nearby presence of others can succeed is 3d6
And any difference of equipment still favors the adept. Crusader recovery? Yes please. You still have to qualify for the maneuver. Any change in equipment favors carnivore's build over the fighter.
This is probably true ... but this is one of the things that would be nice to see ...
slight tangent
See, once of the things about the fighter class normally, is he has no class related ability to use a swift action.
Let me rephrase the above:
The fighter has no normal need to spend a swift action. This means that there is no opportunity cost for him to use a swift action magic item.
Any class that has the ability to use a swift action (boosts/counters/recoveries/quickened spells/swift spells) now has an opportunity cost associated with using the magic item.
This might be a non-issue, or it might be a major issue:
As a cleric, do I use close wounds on another party member, or do I save my swift action for next round so that I can use my amulet of retributive healing to heal both them and me.
As a warblade, do I use my Raging Mongoose boost, or do I use my belt of battle?
etc
See, once of the things about the fighter class normally, is he has no class related ability to use a swift action.
Let me rephrase the above:
The fighter has no normal need to spend a swift action. This means that there is no opportunity cost for him to use a swift action magic item.
Any class that has the ability to use a swift action (boosts/counters/recoveries/quickened spells/swift spells) now has an opportunity cost associated with using the magic item.
This might be a non-issue, or it might be a major issue:
As a cleric, do I use close wounds on another party member, or do I save my swift action for next round so that I can use my amulet of retributive healing to heal both them and me.
As a warblade, do I use my Raging Mongoose boost, or do I use my belt of battle?
etc
In plains terrain it is 6d6
Way too endgame focused for serious archery discussion IMO.
I'd say it's worth it by comparison; you get a good number of counters and you can use few strikes too to make the Elvencraft Bow do you some good. You get Dancing Mongoose on 9-10 and Time Stands Still on 17-18. Other than that, WRTs (and White Raven in general), Diamond Mind and defensive Iron Heart allow the Adept-side to contribute.
Fighter 2/Warblade 8/Eternal Blade 10 seems to get enough feats to fill out all the necessary steps while also getting Dancing Mongoose on 10, along with some melee- and later nova-abilities. Also gives you nicely increased mobility, Int to damage + attack and the ability to use Knowledge Devotion without dedicated slots. Mostly, the advantage of an Eternal Archer is the fact that it gets damage increases and the ability to ignore DR, both of which are really hard to come by for Archers and the main limiting factor in their ranged efficiency (beyond 60', that is).
Don't get me wrong here, I understand. But doesn't *everyone* choosing 10% of their build is in fact Fighter levels admit something pretty basic?
2 levels of fighter is pretty good bang for your buck, 20 levels is not.
I think fighters make fine enough archers. Sure, you can dip into as many classes as you can and mix/match abilities you probably will be marginally more powerful an archer than a straight fighter and have a few more "non-archery" abilities as well. Does that really need to be "proven" beyond just thinking about it?
Also, why is the Fighter restricted to "just fighter" levels when all of these other archers are using fighter levels?
Maybe it's because not all campaigns have access to every single splatbook, but I *strongly doubt* there are many campaigns that LACK access to a straight fighter. Straight fighter archer is a fine enough build. Is it the absolute uber best? No, but then again NO BUILD IS unless it's pun-pun.
I'd say it's worth it by comparison; you get a good number of counters and you can use few strikes too to make the Elvencraft Bow do you some good. You get Dancing Mongoose on 9-10 and Time Stands Still on 17-18. Other than that, WRTs (and White Raven in general), Diamond Mind and defensive Iron Heart allow the Adept-side to contribute.
There has been some comments about the warblade archer in the past, and I am sorry to say he sucks until level 17.
Dancing Mongoose seems great (and extra attack at level 9? Where do I sign?) until one realizes the warblade can't recharge the maneuvers using archery. He has to make a melee attack or spend a full round doing nothing.
Same happens with Ragging Mongoose at level 15. Only with Time Stand Still the warblade becomes competitive with a fighter, and only by activating Time Stand Still + Ragging Mongoose every two rounds, and then spending a round recovering the maneuvers.
Only one of the warblade bonus feats (Improved Initiative) is truly good for archers.
Very few stances add much to the warblade's archery. Blood On the Water is wasted except at the highest levels, because the bow is a 20 x3 weapon and the warblade only manages a decent number of ciritical hits when he can afford a Split bow and Improved Critical (or Keen).
At the end you end with an archer that is about as effective as a barbarian archer for most of his adventuring life, only becoming really remarkable at levels 17-20 thanks to comboing Time Stand Still and Raging Mongoose. And by multi-classing Time Stand Still comes even later.
Posting a "Warblade 20, what a great archer" build is one of those extremely deceptive builds sometimes pop up in the CO boards. It looks awesome at level 20, but someone trying to play the character is going to cry for 16 levels.
There has been some comments about the warblade archer in the past, and I am sorry to say he sucks until level 17.
Dancing Mongoose seems great (and extra attack at level 9? Where do I sign?) until one realizes the warblade can't recharge the maneuvers using archery. He has to make a melee attack or spend a full round doing nothing.
Extra attack the first turn sounds just fine to me. It's not like it's a huge loss or anything.
Same happens with Ragging Mongoose at level 15. Only with Time Stand Still the warblade becomes competitive with a fighter, and only by activating Time Stand Still + Ragging Mongoose every two rounds, and then spending a round recovering the maneuvers.
Eternal Blade arguably gets to use Time Stands Still twice in one combat. Further, there's the whole Island In Time.
Only one of the warblade bonus feats (Improved Initiative) is truly good for archers.
Quick Draw is handy too, but yea, Warblade feats are meh. More importantly though, I did the feat breakdown and you lose out on very little by going Warblade Archer. You basically lose Improved Rapid Shot and that's about it.
Very few stances add much to the warblade's archery. Blood On the Water is wasted except at the highest levels, because the bow is a 20 x3 weapon and the warblade only manages a decent number of ciritical hits when he can afford a Split bow and Improved Critical (or Keen).
There're those Harpy Arrows that are autokeen without Magic. But that's besides the point, I wouldn't even endorse using Blood in the Water, except in very long combats.
Posting a "Warblade 20, what a great archer" build is one of those extremely deceptive builds sometimes pop up in the CO boards. It looks awesome at level 20, but someone trying to play the character is going to cry for 16 levels.
See, this is where I disagree. Whenever I think of Warblade Archer, I think of one who early on uses Wall of Blades, Sudden Leap, White Raven Tactics and company to both, protect himself and make his team more effective while doing his normal archery stuff. If he maxed a Concentration, he'd also get Insightful Strike/Greater Insightful Strike to be perfectly competent in melee damage (Elvencraft Bow = can be used in melee). White Raven Tactics needs no introduction. You can spend most of your time in Bolstering Voice early on, boosting your team's Will-saves. You can also use the maneuvers that give allies move-actions and so on.
Later on you get Iron Heart Focus, Iron Heart Surge, Hearing the Air and Dancing Mongoose, along with few others. Suddenly you have completely uncomparable survivability over Fighter, and you have those extra attacks in Alpha Strike too.
Further along, Eternal Blade gives you Int to attack and damage Eternal Training/day, which is very nice addition seeing that damage is very hard for an archer to pump. Also, the Eternal Knowledge enables you to start utilizing Knowledge Devotion to a rather good effect without ranks in Knowledges.
You also pick up Quicksilver Motion (again enabling you to basically stay the hell away from the opponents), Iron Heart Endurance (you'll always be at least at half HP if you survive a combat), White Raven Hammer (allows you to really punish people for coming close to you) and eventually Time Stands Still and Island in Time (extra turn).
Your feats fall as follows:
1: PBS
F: Rapid Shot
3, F: Precise Shot, Weapon Focus
6: Weapon Specialization:
9: Ranged Weapon Mastery
12: Knowledge Devotion
15: Woodland Archery
18: Open
Comparatively to Fighter-archer, you lose (given that you're not playing a variant Fighter, which would obviously be a whole different ballpark):
-Greatbow (which takes away a small bit of reach and an average point of damage)
-Improved Rapid Shot (but the superior Knowledge Devotion will eventually make up for it. Also, your To Hit will already be rather high as an Archer as you cannot Power Attack, so I see this as little issue)
-Manyshot (which is just a prerequisite anyways; won't be of that much practical use, especially since Warblade gets to move as Swift Action to full attack while moving a couple of times in combat)
-Improved Critical (arrows make up for that; you can afford them midway through the game)
-Weapon Supremacy, Greater Spec, Greater Focus (Greater Focus and Greater Spec are basically matched by Knowledge Devotion and Int to damage and hit, while Weapon Supremacy comes at the same time as Time Stands Still)
-Resolute (worse than comparable maneuvers)
To me it seems like a Warblade Archer just loses 3 To Hit and 3 Damage along with slight range. Knowledge Devotion is going to average the same rolls later on, but midway through a Fighter has slight edge in damage and To Hit. Dancing Mongoose is going to add extra to initial damage. There's however the potential to further utilize Int in an Eternal Blade archer, and the ability to ignore DR with Swift Action.
Basically, Warblade gives up small amounts of early damage for more skills, higher HD, much more use for the allies, more effective defenses, more mobility and melee prowess. I cannot see the Fighter coming out ahead in that.
Also, consider what happens when he uses an Aptitude Great Crossbow with the Hand Crossbow Mastery feat (I think that's the name) with Blood in the Water. Suddenly the archery damage problem just goes away instantly, and a volley of bolts from this guy, even with only Dancing Mongoose, is absolutely devastating.
JaronK
To me it seems like a Warblade Archer just loses 3 To Hit and 3 Damage along with slight range. Knowledge Devotion is going to average the same rolls later on, but midway through a Fighter has slight edge in damage and To Hit. Dancing Mongoose is going to add extra to initial damage. There's however the potential to further utilize Int in an Eternal Blade archer, and the ability to ignore DR with Swift Action.
Basically, Warblade gives up small amounts of early damage for more skills, higher HD, much more use for the allies, more effective defenses, more mobility and melee prowess. I cannot see the Fighter coming out ahead in that.
Your stub posted Knowledge Devotion at level 12. So for over half the character's pre-epic career, he was even further behind ...
Would you want to play an archer character who is worse than a straight fighter? Or rather, let me rephrase, using your post above, would you want to be hitting less, and doing less damage per hit than a straight fighter for most of your career?
Some people do not mind that because of the other options/abilities that the warblade brings to the table, but if you want to be the Uber-Archer, wouldn't better range, to hit, and damage be a good thing?
Yeah, I think the Warblade/Eternal Blade is actually a very strong archer, potencially. The fact that at level 17 or so he suddenly goes from "strong" to "holy gods did he just do that?" is just a bonus at the end of the build. But he's still potent up to that point.
Also, consider what happens when he uses an Aptitude Great Crossbow with the Hand Crossbow Mastery feat (I think that's the name) with Blood in the Water. Suddenly the archery damage problem just goes away instantly, and a volley of bolts from this guy, even with only Dancing Mongoose, is absolutely devastating.
JaronK
JaronK,
Please post a build (as much of one as possible) to demonstrate the "strong" and above that you posted. If it is strong enough, that might be what the OP can use to prove the error in "Fighters make the best archers" comment that he is searching for.
Also -- remember that this thread is about (virtually) non-casters, so no bringing up uber-casters.
Your stub posted Knowledge Devotion at level 12. So for over half the character's pre-epic career, he was even further behind ...
Would you want to play an archer character who is worse than a straight fighter? Or rather, let me rephrase, using your post above, would you want to be hitting less, and doing less damage per hit than a straight fighter for most of your career?
Actually, Fighter Archer gets Greater Weapon Specialization at the same level earliest (you could pick it up if you just went straight Warblade with Fighter/Martial Rogue/Ranger dips, but really, Eternal Blade is much better than some silly +1 to hit and +2 to damage). Before that, they've got the same damage, albeit lower To Hit. Also, by then he has Dancing Mongoose for that extra attack. The difference is basically using Greatbow vs. Longbow. Basically, you're really behind in damage over levels 12-18 (that's when he's 2 points ahead), given that you don't use Eternal Training for Int to damage and Hit (or don't have an Int-modifier to speak of).
Realistically, that leaves you behind more than 1 in damage for maybe level 12. To Hit-rolls are going to be really high anyways, so I wouldn't really worry about the lack of Improved Rapid Shot, especially since Knowledge Devotion adds to that too. All in all, you're going to be quite equal as an archer to the Fighter for levels 1-5, a bit worse 6-10 (no Improved Rapid Shot), about equal for 11-17 and far better 18-20. All the while you've got better HD, more damage, more skills, melee capability, maneuvers and swift action movement.
Some people do not mind that because of the other options/abilities that the warblade brings to the table, but if you want to be the Uber-Archer, wouldn't better range, to hit, and damage be a good thing?
Of course it's a good thing, the question is if it's worth it, especially since you'll realistically be about even for most of your career and ahead later on.
On warblade archers: Warblade recovery blows chunks on archers. Only *slightly* better than swordsage with adaptive style when out of melee. Warblade is nice for "Bonus Abilities" but warblade readied maneuvers are close to 1/encounter on archers.
Consider, however, the fact that if a Warblade/Eternal Blade hits hard enough with his manuevers, it may not matter that he can't refresh them due to his enemies all being dead. Certainly in the 17-20 range that's likely to be the case as he can fire off three full attack actions plus Raging Mongoose in a single turn.
And yeah, with an Aptitude Great Crossbow (18-20 critical range) and the feat that works for Hand Crossbows to reload rapidly, plus Blood in the Water and Improved Critical... that's going to be total devastation after that first volley.
Killing all your enemies once per encounter isn't a bad thing.
The added bonus is that you can use White Raven manuevers to be a field commander while you're shooting.
JaronK
JaronK,
Please post a build (as much of one as possible) to demonstrate the "strong" and above that you posted. If it is strong enough, that might be what the OP can use to prove the error in "Fighters make the best archers" comment that he is searching for.
Also -- remember that this thread is about (virtually) non-casters, so no bringing up uber-casters.
Eternal Blades aren't uber casters, so what are you talking about here?
As a basic build, I'd go with something like the following, noting that an Aptitude Great Crossbow is usable via the EWP: Hand Crossbow feat.
Elf (pick your type) Fighter 2/Warblade 8/Eternal Blade 10
Two flaws (lowered Fort saves and vulnerable would make sense).
Feats:
1: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Crossbow Sniper, EWP: Handcrossbow
2: Hand Crossbow Focus
3: Precise Shot
6: Weapon Specialization (Hand Crossbow)
7: Improved Initiative
9: Improved Critical (Hand Crossbow)
12: Ranged Weapon Mastery (Piercing)
15: Woodland Archery
18: Martial Study (Raging Mongoose)
Stances:
Blood in the Water, Absolute Steel Stance, Hearing the Air
Manuevers: Sudden Leap, Moment of Perfect Mind, White Raven Tactics, Lion's Roar, Iron Heart Surge, Wall of Blades, Dancing Mongoose, Iron Heart Focus, Moment of Alacrity, Order Forged From Chaos, Diamond Defense, Time Stands Still, Raging Mongoose.
Normal manuevers readied:
Time Stands Still, Raging Mongoose, Dancing Mongoose, White Raven Tactics, Lion's Roar, Diamond Defense, Moment of Alacrity.
Weapon of choice: Aptitude Splitting Great Crossbow with +6 worth of other mods.
Now, at level 20 of course this build is absolutely devastating. A standard acttack routine might be as follows:
First, activate Time Stands Still and Raging Mongoose to fire 28 shots (4 shots base, +1 Rapid Shot, +2 Raging Mongoose, Doubled by Time Stands Still, Doubled again by Splitting). These shots add half your dex to damage and critical on a 15-20, and the first missed shot causes all the others to get +4 to hit... also you have +Int to confirm critical hits, and if you want it you can use Eternal Training for +Int to hit and to damage. Also, every confirmed critical gives you +1 to hit and to damage from there on out. On average, you will threaten 7 critical hits in this volley.
Now use Island in Time, giving you another turn immediately. As far as I can tell, this is a new turn (so Raging Mongoose won't apply) but you should be able to use Swift actions within this turn, so fire up Dancing Mongoose and launch another 12 shots, with on average 3 critical threats.
At this point, if you're able to confirm half your critical threats (which to me seems very possible) you've got +5 to hit and to damage.
So yeah, that's 40 shots in a single round with a lot of criticals and bonus damage.
Next round... well, there probably isn't a next round, so who cares? But if you want, you could make use of Lion's Roar to boost damage if you take someone out, or White Raven Tactics to get another guy acting, or Moment of Alacrity to get another action more quickly. Basically, I don't think the Warblade's refresh mechanism matters because at this point everyone's dead before you run out of tasty manuevers, and should the unthinkable happen and you do run out, at that point Blood in the Water is giving you stupidly large bonuses anyway.
But let's look a bit at the lower levels.
This build won't really take off until you can use an Aptitude Great Crossbow. Until then, Hand Crossbows will be your thing, and you'll be using White Raven Tactics and Lion's Roar to make things interesting for your party. Even at level 5 you're quite respectable, though short ranged.
Figure you can pick up a +1 Aptitude Great Crossbow around level 6-8 (yes, there's a gear dependancy issue... you really do need this weapon), and you should be good to go. At level 10 you should be shining just fine, with your 3 shots per round that threaten criticals on a 15-20 with Blood in the Water, and the ability to use Lion's Roar, Dancing Mongoose, and White Raven Tactics as your primary combat manuevers. Your damage will be 2d8+(1/2 Dex) +2, but with the Blood in the Water bonuses you should be doing quite well if the fight drags out (and if it doesn't your manuevers will last you just fine).
So yeah, that's roughly what I'd go with. Might want to slap on "Distance" and, if the DM allows, "Energy" to the bow, but that's your call. Note that you'll want to be wearing Feycraft Armour Spikes to make good use of Wall of Blades, at earlier levels.
JaronK
You say this like you've never fought multiple enemies before.
No, I say this as though I think the damage potencial in the first three rounds should be enough to finish off all enemies in most encounters, meaning refreshing isn't a big deal.
Meanwhile, if he's fighting a huge horde of enemies, Blood in the Water should begin to have a huge effect, so while he'll run out of manuevers, at that point each shot is incredibly potent. Plus, he can always take a round to refresh if he so desires.
In fact, he'd make an interesting sniper. Round 1: Blow his best manuevers to do massive damage. Round 2: Refresh manuevers, move action to get behind total cover. Round 3: Repeat, taking a 5' step out before shooting. Won't work with Island in Time but it works with everything else.
JaronK
1) Flaws make everything better. Try that without flaws.
Obviously harder to do without flaws... but the fact remains that it works.
2) Archers use bows for the purpose of this thread.
Why? Crossbows work the same way.
3) I really dislike nova abilities. Way too one trick pony for my tastes.
One Trick Pony? Hardly. It's just that the damage happens early in the encounter (which is when you want it anyway). Heck, this guy is a perfectly capable diplomat (might as well pump that skill, it's not like he needs others all that much) and a great leader in general, plus if push comes to shove his a very capable melee combatant (though he'll want to use weapons that give him Weapon Finesse free for obvious reasons).
Front loading your damage isn't a bad thing... especially when you've got Blood in the Water for longer fights.
4) Still WAY too lategame for my tastes.
Not sure what the problem is there. Being potent at level 10 isn't terribly late game, and he's certainly powerful enough around level 6-8. Heck, he's not horrible even when he's stuck with Hand Crossbows... and remember, he can just chose to be a melee (using a spiked chain and just using Weapon Aptitude to have EWP Spiked Chain) at lower levels if he wants.
5) Warblade should be the first level for hp and skill points.
This is true.
JaronK
That also means you can retain the same build with one less flaw. You can drop Woodland Archery if you really want, thus removing flaws from the build.
EDIT: Wait, this won't work, need BAB 10 to get into Eternal Blade. Hmm. I guess Ranged Weapon Mastery has to go too if you want to do it without flaws.
JaronK
JaronK
Anyways, Eternal Blade Archer seems to have a comparable damage and To Hit over his entire career compared to any long range archer with decent skillpoints, a good hit die and a dozen useful abilities + maneuvers. Alternatively, Warblade Archer with dips can be just as good as a Fighter Archer, albeit getting his Greater Spec. et al. a bit later and making up for Weapon Supremacy with Time Stands Still.
Also, the Nova leaves you supercharged for the rest of the combat; Blood in Water is probably gonna trigger a few times and with Int to Confirmation, that'll mean nice bonuses for the rest of the encounter (and prolly some time after). 6 arrows base (Hasted Rapid Shot) leads to 18 with Time Stands Still + Island in Time, 24 if Eternal Training is indeed allowed to grant you a maneuver you already know and 48 if you count Splitting arrows as separate attacks.
That's a large number of crits (with 19-20 threat, an average of ~5), to which you all have bonus for confirmation and which grant you bonuses for the rest of the combat. Blood in the Water only seems useful when flurrying though so I'd use more generally useful stances overall.
Even without any maneuvers you'll still be about as good as an average equal level Fighter Archer, and can get on average more shots if you Time+Dance, recover and repeat. Late on, the build is supreme, but I find it quite potent on any level, and probably more powerful overall than a straight Fighter Archer at all points; some maneuvers like White Raven Tactics just increase the overall efficiency of a party.
Crusader as a Martial Archer would be indeed nice, but as you said, they don't have Tiger Claw or Diamond Mind or Fighter-levels to pick up Weapon Specialization, so one needs to use levels to acquire all those. It probably wouldn't get Time Stands Still before level 20 unless ignoring the early levels though so I cannot really put the pieces together; Warblade seems to fall in place so easily that I tend to prefer them for this (not to mention, the Int-synergies are quite useful if going Eternal Blade).
The build that's presently being proposed seems to have the issue that while it's got many useful abilities, some spellcasting and all that, it loses to a straight Fighter in terms of killing things at a range, and even worse to a Fighter/Cragtop Archer as it doesn't have the range advantage there. Weapon Specialization coming at 8 leaves it behind a Fighter in damage for those 4 levels and it never gets anything comparable to Greater Weapon Specialization, nor any relevant damage boosts later on.
The build also doesn't get the maneuvers that early so they won't help with the early game advantage a Fighter has. It seems to me like all that's been accomplished in this thread thus far is proving that Fighter 20 (or rather Fighter 12/Warblade 1/Crusader 1/Ranger 2/Martial Rogue 2/Cragtop Archer 2 or something along those lines) is very hard to challenge in long range archery before the pre-epic (~15, which is when Warblade Archer finally pretty much surpasses Fighter Archer) levels.
Almost all the feats a non-Fighter can pick up are fully available to a Fighter too, so that's no way to try to outdo him (although feats a Fighter can't properly utilize without a lot of effort such as Knowledge Devotion, Divine Might, Holy Warrior and company may be the key here). With the suckiness of related class features and the restriction of basically all additional damage features to either 30' or melee really makes life tough without resorting to Magic. Cleric Archer can obviously outdo a Fighter rather easily (as long as he has the feats to pick up the basic archery prerequisites) - all Fighter's Archery Damage Feats pretty much add up to Divine Favor - but that doesn't help when looking for a non-magical way.
Even Giant's Stance, the one thing that really makes it easy to outdamage a Fighter Archer, is completely useless in a game with normal amounts of Magic as it doesn't increase your damage size beyond large and there're 70 billion ways to be large for damage in the books. So while all the builds here are adding various useful things to the archery concept, none of them are beating Fighter in simple efficiency.
Loss of BAB means you won't get Eternal Blade 10 before Epic. No-go.
Yeah, I realized that later, hence the edit.
Also, why is Raging Mongoose there again? By then you'll have a billion uses for your Swift Action (a dozen boosts, ignore DR, Dancing Mongoose, Belt of Battle and many other pieces of equipment, etc.), taking a feat that allows you to make two extra attacks with it seems bad. I'd rather pick one of the missing archery feats.
With splitting and TSS, Raging Mongoose is giving a total of 8 extra shots in that opening Nova round, including 2 extra critical threats on average. That's very important I think.
Anyways, Eternal Blade Archer seems to have a comparable damage and To Hit over his entire career compared to any long range archer with decent skillpoints, a good hit die and a dozen useful abilities + maneuvers. Alternatively, Warblade Archer with dips can be just as good as a Fighter Archer, albeit getting his Greater Spec. et al. a bit later and making up for Weapon Supremacy with Time Stands Still.
Eternal Blade is certainly handy, but I'm also wondering about the use of Feat Rogue 2/Fighter 2/Warblade 16. You don't get that level 20 nova ability or the awesome Int to hit and damage ability, but you get a lot more feats to play with, as well as more manuevers available.
Also, the Nova leaves you supercharged for the rest of the combat; Blood in Water is probably gonna trigger a few times and with Int to Confirmation, that'll mean nice bonuses for the rest of the encounter (and prolly some time after). 6 arrows base (Hasted Rapid Shot) leads to 18 with Time Stands Still + Island in Time, 24 if Eternal Training is indeed allowed to grant you a maneuver you already know and 48 if you count Splitting arrows as separate attacks.
Oh yes, if Eternal Training lets you TSS twice in a row then that Nova is even more devastating. And yes, Splitting gives you new attack rolls. But yeah, after the Nova your to hit and damage skyrockets due to Blood in the Water which means that you're quite pumped up after that initial devastating volley.
That's a large number of crits (with 19-20 threat, an average of ~5), to which you all have bonus for confirmation and which grant you bonuses for the rest of the combat. Blood in the Water only seems useful when flurrying though so I'd use more generally useful stances overall.
Well, the Great Crossbow trick gives you a critical threat range of 15-20 in the end, and that's where Blood in the Water really takes off. If you really don't want the criticals thing, then Giant's Stance might be more your style... combine that with Permanent Enlarge Person and your damage should be quite noticable.
JaronK
Wait, are you saying the ranger 6/ PT 4/ ftr 2/ CA 3/ Cru 1/ WarBl 1/ Wildrunner 2/ EB 1 loses out to the fighter 20 on damage? Because it has higher to hit, higher damage per hit, and more attacks.
1) PBS
2) Rapidshot
3) WF: Longbow, Endurance(ranger bonus)
4) Precise
6) Manyshot, true believer
9) Weapon Spec, RWM
10) Imp. Rapidshot
11) Woodland Archer
12) Far shot, mountain warrior
15) Imp. Init
18) Improved Precise Shot
That's the feat list Carnivore posted. How, exactly, does it out damage or out hit a Fighter? Ranger gives no damage boosts, Pious Templar gives none beyond Weapon Specialization, Fighter gives none, Cragtop Archer gets +2 when on higher ground (not a class Fighter couldn't pick either), Warblade gives no direct damage boosts (Dancing Mongoose helps, but as you said, 1/encounter and it's available to Fighter too), Crusader gets none, Wildrunner gets the Shifting which adds 1 point of damage given weapon of appropriate Str classification (when Screaming), Eternal Blade (I suppose that's what you mean by EB) adds Int once per day (since you don't get any more Eternal Trainings), while your feats leave you 3 points behind Argaud's Fighter (EWP: Greatbow, Greater Weapon Specialization). That leaves you even when on higher ground and 2 behind when on level ground, 3 when you're out of Primal Screams, and that's before Fighter is allowed to use Prestiges.
Primal Scream increases your To Hit by 3, Mountain Warrior by 1 when on higher ground and you've got reduced range penalties, so once you get Wildrunner, you'll be ahead of Fighter in To Hit as long as you've got Primal Scream going on. So seems like it doesn't outdamage a straight Fighter and the To Hit is only sitiuationally higher. And that's compared to Fighter 20 (which basically gets Weapon Supremacy, which isn't much use with the volleys, and that's about it), when Fighter 12/X 8 doesn't really lose anything relevant and could thus fit in Cragtop Archer, Warblade, Wildrunner and either Martial Rogue or Ranger for skills. Also, earlier on there're gaps like having to wait until level 9 for Specialization, and level 10 for Improved Rapid Shot, over which the Fighter has an edge.
Seems to me like it's simply becoming a slower maturing Fighter Archer with skillpoints (and with more use for high stats, but less resilience due to Primal Screams running out). The extra attack comes very late and is still once per encounter.
With splitting and TSS, Raging Mongoose is giving a total of 8 extra shots in that opening Nova round, including 2 extra critical threats on average. That's very important I think.
Raging Mongoose isn't doubled by TSS.
Eternal Blade is certainly handy, but I'm also wondering about the use of Feat Rogue 2/Fighter 2/Warblade 16. You don't get that level 20 nova ability or the awesome Int to hit and damage ability, but you get a lot more feats to play with, as well as more manuevers available.
Lacks the ability to use Int to damage, Knowledge Devotion, Int to AC and eventual Island in Time. It's still plenty viable though; I've got one of those built here somewhere, although I think it used Ranger and only got Time Stands Still level 20 (it also used Drow of the Underdark to get Poison Use as a Martial Rogue, which is really why it was included in the first place; Poison goes great with arrows as they can all be poisoned before combat).
Well, the Great Crossbow trick gives you a critical threat range of 15-20 in the end, and that's where Blood in the Water really takes off. If you really don't want the criticals thing, then Giant's Stance might be more your style... combine that with Permanent Enlarge Person and your damage should be quite noticable.
Two problems there:
-Giant's Stance unfortunately doesn't go beyond Large. Someone was dumb when making it, but as it stands, in normal Magic game, it's pretty much useless. Heck, Strongarm Bracers make it completely worthless (and allow you to move).
-As archerpwr said, the whole Great Crossbow trick is pretty much Theorethical Optimization and thus doesn't really belong here. Also, the build uses flaws which is a huge minus; a generic build needs to function without flaws.
Carnivore and I later decided plunging shot was a better 18 feat. We have to beat +1 TH and +2 dmg with the non overlapping features.
TH: +1 (mountain warrior) + 3 (wildrunner)
Dmg: +2 (CA) + 1(wildrunner) +1d6 (plunging shot)
We lose 1 to hit when we make it a dragonborn(wings) elf, but IMO it's worth it.
The numbers *are* higher. As for progressing slower, I could simply reorder the levels, but I love my extras too much.
Plunging Shot though isn't anything a Fighter doesn't have access to. Argaud's build has crap like Improved Critical which would easily become Plunging Shot. Also, much of that requires being above the opponent, which seems to make you an easy target (not much to hide in in the air) and which seems relatively pointless; if your opponent can't reach you, you don't really need any extra damage (and well, who seriously cares about creatures that cannot affect flyers on level 18) and if he can reach you, cannot he simply fly to higher ground, especially since any flying opponents probably have a higher fly speed too?
Primal Scream is also a consumable so not something to rely on for long days (and easy to add to Fighter; Fighter 12/Ranger (or Martial Rogue) 2/Wildrunner 2 works; could even be earlier if postponing Greater Weapon Spec later). As far as levels go, Pious Templar can't be taken before level 6 and since that's the source of Weapon Specialization, it seems like Fighter is going to have a 5-level monopoly there. True Believer is also a prerequisite for Pious Templar, forcing Rapid Shot, Precise Shot or Improved Rapid Shot further down.
Raging Mongoose isn't doubled by TSS.
We had a big debate about this one, but in the end I'm convinced it does. Notice Raging Mongoose lasts until the end of turn... it's a full turn buff that increases your attacks by 2. If you look over the rules for Full Attack Actions and Standard Actions, I think you'll see that in fact it will work for both of the full attack actions that TSS gives.
Lacks the ability to use Int to damage, Knowledge Devotion, Int to AC and eventual Island in Time. It's still plenty viable though; I've got one of those built here somewhere, although I think it used Ranger and only got Time Stands Still level 20 (it also used Drow of the Underdark to get Poison Use as a Martial Rogue, which is really why it was included in the first place; Poison goes great with arrows as they can all be poisoned before combat).
IIRC poison use would be excellent on a build like this.
Two problems there:
-Giant's Stance unfortunately doesn't go beyond Large. Someone was dumb when making it, but as it stands, in normal Magic game, it's pretty much useless. Heck, Strongarm Bracers make it completely worthless (and allow you to move).
Bah, I didn't notice that.
-As archerpwr said, the whole Great Crossbow trick is pretty much Theorethical Optimization and thus doesn't really belong here. Also, the build uses flaws which is a huge minus; a generic build needs to function without flaws.
I don't consider it theoretical op... it's not that huge of a deal after all. It's just a good combo. Flaws of course can be an issue, but they can be removed with only the annoyance of decreased range... the Blood in the Water boosts are plenty to make up for all other losses.
JaronK
Weapon specialization and focus really aren't good feats. RWM is important. The one level delay is lame, but worth it IMO. Got any suggestions to shift around feats to get imp. rapidshot at 6? Maybe there is an ACF to drop the animal companion for a feat?
I agree that Weapon Focus is horrible, but Weapon Specialization seems to help a lot in a damage-starved archetype. Unfortunately, due to the way the feats fall, it seems impossible to get Improved Rapid Shot in time without rearranging levels. The only Animal Companion-replacements I know of are Distracting Attack and Solitary Hunter (which is Dragon though), both of which do appear worthwhile though.
One thing this build isn't accounting for though is Favoured Enemy; you have 2 Favoured Enemies one with +4, which is pretty amazing given how small the average damage increments a bow can get are. Then again, they're just as sitiuational as higher ground bonuses.
It would work out by replacing the 2 Ranger-levels with Fighter though, since you'd get 2 feats, allowing you to get both, True Believer and Improved Rapid Shot earlier. However, since this would mean you'd need to pick Manyshot as a Fighter/general feat, Ranger 6 wouldn't be of any use any longer (although retrainingw ould obviously get past that), which would force one to come up with a replacement for the Fighter-levels; Martial Rogue mayhap? Then again, it's quite weak even now; two levels just give one feat, improved Favoured Enemy and skills. Ranger-levels 1-4 are much stronger, giving 3 feats + Track, good skills, Wild Empathy, Animal Companion and Favoured Enemy.
EDIT@JaronK: Raging Mongoose states: "After initiating this boost, you can make two additional attacks with each weapon you wield (to a maximum of four extra attacks if you wield two or more weapons)."
After this boost is quite the dead giveaway; it simply allows you to make two additional attacks with each weapon you wield after initiating the boost. It doesn't say "you gain two additional attacks for each of your weapons" or anything like that, it simply states you can make two extra attacks. Note that it applies whether you're making a Standard or a Full-Round Action attack; it doesn't care about what kind of an attack you're doing. It just allows you to make two extra attacks as a part of your attack.
FE:arcanists in particular is hawt. Do any familiars grant actual feats (PBS or wpn focus in particular)?
Only Alertness can be acquired through a familiar. None in the books and none in Dragon, as far as I know, give you anything but HP, skill, save or initiative-bonuses.
EDIT@JaronK: Raging Mongoose states: "After initiating this boost, you can make two additional attacks with each weapon you wield (to a maximum of four extra attacks if you wield two or more weapons)."
After this boost is quite the dead giveaway; it simply allows you to make two additional attacks with each weapon you wield after initiating the boost. It doesn't say "you gain two additional attacks for each of your weapons" or anything like that, it simply states you can make two extra attacks. Note that it applies whether you're making a Standard or a Full-Round Action attack; it doesn't care about what kind of an attack you're doing. It just allows you to make two extra attacks as a part of your attack.
Notice the duration though... until the end of the turn.
You get two extra attacks until the end of the turn.
Now look at what a full attack action does, and what a standard action does, and you'll see that in fact if you used Raging Mongoose with a standard action, you wouldn't get any extra attacks.
Seriously, considering the duration and the rules for Standard/Full Attacks, it's actually very clear how it works. It increases your attacks by two until the end of the round. If you full attack, you get to use all your attacks (with a standard, you get just one attack, regardless of how many are available to you). If you make two full attacks, you get to use all of your attacks twice.
JaronK
Almost all the feats a non-Fighter can pick up are fully available to a Fighter too, so that's no way to try to outdo him (although feats a Fighter can't properly utilize without a lot of effort such as Knowledge Devotion, Divine Might, Holy Warrior and company may be the key here).
I apologize if this is off topic from the original purpose of this thread, but the idea of a Knowledge Devotion fighter was intriguing. Here's my first attempt at making one...
Encyclopedia Fighter
Human know-it-all archer:
Human Education
Fighter 1 Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
Fighter 2 Rapid Shot
Fighter 3 Weapn Focus
Fighter 4 Weapon Specialization
Fighter 5
Fighter 6 Manyshot, Improved Rapid Shot
Fighter 7
Fighter 8 Ranged Weapon Mastery (Piercing)
Fighter 9 Knowledge Devotion
Fighter 10 Greater Weapon Focus
Fighter 11
Fighter 12 Improved Precise Shot (or Woodland Archer?), Greater Weapon Specialization
Can take Woodland Archer or Improved Precise Shot depending on your preference. In fact, you could take Woodland Archer at 10 if desired, just switching it with Greater Weapon Focus.
If flaws are allowed, you can get Knowledge Devotion much earlier (like level 3). Also, flaws allow you to not play a human.
A human with INT 16 can max the six Knowledge skills that identify creatures. Can get away with lower INT if you know what kinds of creatures you'll run into in the campaign.
Human Education
Fighter 1 Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
Fighter 2 Rapid Shot
Fighter 3 Weapn Focus
Fighter 4 Weapon Specialization
Fighter 5
Fighter 6 Manyshot, Improved Rapid Shot
Fighter 7
Fighter 8 Ranged Weapon Mastery (Piercing)
Fighter 9 Knowledge Devotion
Fighter 10 Greater Weapon Focus
Fighter 11
Fighter 12 Improved Precise Shot (or Woodland Archer?), Greater Weapon Specialization
Can take Woodland Archer or Improved Precise Shot depending on your preference. In fact, you could take Woodland Archer at 10 if desired, just switching it with Greater Weapon Focus.
If flaws are allowed, you can get Knowledge Devotion much earlier (like level 3). Also, flaws allow you to not play a human.
A human with INT 16 can max the six Knowledge skills that identify creatures. Can get away with lower INT if you know what kinds of creatures you'll run into in the campaign.
Now use Island in Time, giving you another turn immediately. As far as I can tell, this is a new turn (so Raging Mongoose won't apply) but you should be able to use Swift actions within this turn, so fire up Dancing Mongoose and launch another 12 shots, with on average 3 critical threats.
How does this work?
Island of Time takes an immediate action, so since you already used a swift -- you cannot do this on your turn, you need to let someone else go, when you can interrupt them ...
However, since you used an immediate action on someone else's turn, you miss your swift on your turn.
Unless I missed something?
How does this work?
Island of Time takes an immediate action, so since you already used a swift -- you cannot do this on your turn, you need to let someone else go, when you can interrupt them ...
However, since you used an immediate action on someone else's turn, you miss your swift on your turn.
Unless I missed something?
What you're missing is that an immediate action uses up your swift action for next round, not this round. Thus, you blow your swift action for this round (Raging Mongoose) and your full action (Time Stands Still). Now as soon as your round ends, activate Island In Time. This blows your swift action for next round, but according to the wording it looks like you still get your swift action that you can use within Island in time, so throw in Dancing Mongoose.
Next round your swift action is used up, so you can't use any boosts next round.
Actually, I'm wondering... you should be able to use the immediate action from Island in Time at the end of your turn while still being during your turn. As such, you should be able to still have Raging Mongoose active... and use another boost such as Dancing Mongoose, all in that Island in Time. Of course, then you'll be pretty wiped out for moves, but still, that's one heck of a Nova. Not sure if that works.
JaronK
What you're missing is that an immediate action uses up your swift action for next round, not this round. Thus, you blow your swift action for this round (Raging Mongoose) and your full action (Time Stands Still). Now as soon as your round ends, activate Island In Time. This blows your swift action for next round, but according to the wording it looks like you still get your swift action that you can use within Island in time, so throw in Dancing Mongoose.
Next round your swift action is used up, so you can't use any boosts next round.
Actually, I'm wondering... you should be able to use the immediate action from Island in Time at the end of your turn while still being during your turn. As such, you should be able to still have Raging Mongoose active... and use another boost such as Dancing Mongoose, all in that Island in Time. Of course, then you'll be pretty wiped out for moves, but still, that's one heck of a Nova. Not sure if that works.
JaronK
So close ... and yet so far ...
Please re-read immediate action.
Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your action swift action for that turn.
This is what I was saying as to why your trick cannot quite work as you said it should.
Anthropomorphic Bat ... (+0 LA,Small size, +6 Wis,-4 Str,-2 Cha, Fly 20'(Average))
Cloistered Cleric 1/ Soulknife 2/ Fighter 2/ Soulbow 7
5 Str(9 base - 4 racial)
18 Dex(14 base +4 gloves)
10 Con(10 base)
14 Int(14 base)
30 Wis(17 base +3 lvls +6 Racial +4 amulet)
6 Cha(8 base -2 racial)
Domains:
Elf .... gain Point Blank Shot
Time ... gain Imp Initiative
Knowledge ... give up Domain access to gain Knowledge Devotion feat
progression:
Cloistered Cleric 1 ........... Education, Point blank shot, Knowledge Devotion, Imp Initiative
Soulknife 1 .................... Wild Talent, Weapon Focus(Mindblade)
Fighter 1 ...................... Improved Flight(average>Good), Rapid Shot
Soulknife 2
Fighter 2 ...................... Precise Shot
Soulbow 1..................... Mountain Warrior, Zen Archery
Soulbow 2
Soulbow 3..................... Bowslinger
Soulbow 4..................... Improved Flight(good>Perfect)
Soulbow 5..................... Woodland Archer
Soulbow 6
Soulbow 7..................... Many Shot , Imp Rapid Shot
BAB 8+2(Soulbow) = +10
full Attack: +34 = +10 BAB +10 Wis +2 Competence + 1 haste +1 PBS +1 WpF +1 higher ground +1 size+ 2 enhancement(bane bonus) +5 Insight(Knowledge Dev)
Full round Attack:
+34/+34/+34/+29
damage: 34 per Mind Arrow =Mind arrow 1d6(3.5) +10 Wis +1 Competence +5 Insight +4 Enhancement(bane)+2d6(bane)(7)+ 1d6(3.5)(Elemental:flaming,etc)
items:
16000gp +4 Amulet of Wis
16000gp +4 Gloves of Dex
25000gp Greater Bracers of Archery
13000gp Monks Belt
12000gp boots of Speed
2500gp Eyes of the Eagle
2000gp Handy Haversack
................
86500gp spent:
this compares quite well with a Fighter 12(taken from M_W Fighter 20)
1) PBS
F1) Rapidshot
F2) WF: Longbow
3) Precise
f4) Manyshot
6) True Believer
F6) Weapon Spec,
F8)RWM
9) Imp. Rapidshot
F10) Woodland Archer -- unsure what this is -- some comparable feat?
12) Far shot,
:D
[CENTER][img]
Knowledge ... give up Domain access to gain Knowledge Devotion feat
Note: This is weird.
You give up knowledge devotion (which grants all knowledge)... to take education (which grants all knowledges and +1 to two skills). So -- you are really trading a domain (spells) for +1 to two knowledge skills? Seriously?
Fighter(Hit and Run variant) 1 ...................... Improved Flight(average>Good), Rapid Shot
Sorry, what is the "hit and run variant?" Is this the drow only fighter substitution level, or is this something else (sorry, hadn't heard of it -- and attempting to do a google search ... )
BAB 8+2(Soulbow) = +10
Cloistered Cleric 1 = 0 bab
Soulblade 2 = 1 bab
Fighter 2 = 2 bab
Soulbow 7 = 5 bab
So, I see a total of + 8, the +2 for soulbow is not BAB. It is an enhancement bonus.
The next part involves the knowledge devotion, so lets examine, you have no skills listed, so the best I can do is assume max ranks in skills.
Knowledge (15 ranks +1 int) = +16, taking a 10 results in a +3 bonus. So I will adjust your numbers below accordingly.
full Attack: +34 = +10 BAB +10 Wis +2 Competence + 1 haste +1 PBS +1 WpF +1 higher ground +1 size+ 2 enhancement(bane bonus) +5 Insight(Knowledge Dev)
Ok ... this part here ...
Full attack:
+8 BAB +10 Wis +2 competance +1 WPF +1 size +2 enhancement (class) +3 Insight (knowledge devotion) = +27 at all times in the day
Situational bonuses:
Within 30' of enemy: +1
Able to be on higher ground than the enemy: +1
10 rounds per day: +1
Able to predict enemy type correctly at the start of the day (bane) +2
If all the above works, then you are at +32
damage: B]34 per Mind Arrow[/b] =Mind arrow 1d6(3.5) +10 Wis +1 Competence +5 Insight +4 Enhancement(bane)+2d6(bane)(7)+ 1d6(3.5)(Elemental:flaming,etc)
Mind Arrow: 1d6 (3.5) +10 Wis +1 Competance +3 Insight +2 enhancement = 19.5
Situational Bonuses:
Within 30' of enemy: +1 (I assume you forgot this in your above damage listing)
Vs enemy not resistant 5+ to elemental damage: +3.5
Able to predict enemy type correctly at the start of the day (bane) +9
If all the above works, then you are at 33 damage/hit
Attacks per round:
Normal Rapid Shot: +27/27/22 (two attacks plus improved rapid shot (IRS))
Normal Hasted Rapid Shot: +28/+28/+28/+23 (two attacks plus IRS plus haste)
Each does 19.5 damage per hit.
Best case:
Best case Rapid Shot: +32/+32/+27
Best case hasted Rapid Shot: +33/+33/+33/+28
Each does 33 damage per hit.
Now, if we compare this to my posted thug in the other thread.
Full attack: +31/+31/+26/+21, 2d6+18
All situational bonuses: +32/+32/+27/+22, 2d6+19
Without situational bonuses, your character is blown away (you have lower to-hit, much lower damage).
With situational bonuses, you beat my posted thug 10 rounds per day.
After the 10 rounds of haste, the thug beats your archer.
The BDF build I posted blows yours away either way.
[comments]Before you pick up zen archery (level 8), your to-hit numbers are really really sad.
I like that you took into account your maneuverability, as without it, you are basically limited to single attacks[/comments]
So close ... and yet so far ...
Please re-read immediate action.
This is what I was saying as to why your trick cannot quite work as you said it should.
I said use it "right after your turn ends." That does mean you can't keep Raging Mongoose going the whole time, but the first part of what I said works just fine.
That said, I kinda think Martial Rogue 2/Warblade 18 works even better. I made a build that's now in its own thread, and should win by a lot once it hits level 18 (it's still pretty darn strong at lower levels).
JaronK
Note: This is weird.
You give up knowledge devotion (which grants all knowledge)... to take education (which grants all knowledges and +1 to two skills). So -- you are really trading a domain (spells) for +1 to two knowledge skills? Seriously?
why would i ever want the spells from the Knowledge Domain... this Character is an ARCHER..... this is a very efficient way to gain the Bonus +1 to 2 knowledge Skills and costs nothing
Sorry, what is the "hit and run variant?" Is this the drow only fighter substitution level, or is this something else (sorry, hadn't heard of it -- and attempting to do a google search ... )
sorry about that... it was from another build i was cutting and pasting to.... i didnt even use it
Cloistered Cleric 1 = 0 bab
Soulblade 2 = 1 bab
Fighter 2 = 2 bab
Soulbow 7 = 5 bab
So, I see a total of + 8, the +2 for soulbow is not BAB. It is an enhancement bonus.
look at the Soulknife PrC again.... it states
Your mind arrows improve as you gain higher levels. At 3rd level, a mind arrow gains a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls, and at 7th level the bonus improves to +2. These enhancement bonuses stack with previous enhancement bonuses gained earlier for your soulknife class levels. Likewise, these enhancement bonuses also improve your soulknife base attack bonus. If your return to your soulknife class progression, these mind arrow enhancement bonuses on attack and damage are cumulative bonuses on top of any new enhancement bonuses gained, and they benefit both your mind blade and mind arrows.
the BAB is strange, but correct.... until ERRATA or something Official changes it
Without situational bonuses, your character is blown away (you have lower to-hit, much lower damage).
With situational bonuses, you beat my posted thug 10 rounds per day.
After the 10 rounds of haste, the thug beats your archer.
you have been quite misleading in regard with Situational bonuses:
yours also requires Haste ... so remove that as well
this character will always be flying ... so it always gets bonuses for high ground
if you are able to use Books to prepare ahead as you have done.... it is reasonable to use Bane weapons... you just dont like it that this character has a variable Arsenal literally at his Fingertips... each day he can choose how he will configure his mindarrows
your Thug or BDF cant fire in Melee without recieving AoO for each shot, mine can
mine is never Unarmed..... and his weapon Cant be Sundered or Stolen.... what does yours do if his Bow is broken? or Stolen(Slight of Hand by a 10th lvl Rogue he wont even know it has been taken)
mine can Fly to get to the best Firing location to assist the Party... can yours, can he even Climb.. what about firing his bow while going to his Sniper location... i dont think so
as for the 10 Rounds.... how long would you like combat to run??? until your build can keep up or until the BBEG is dead.... if it takes 3 rounds 3times per day(assuming 3 encounters) what is the problem... how much damage does he have to put out to be effective?
also Zen Archery could be earlier ...... actually i would have it at 6th
also he would have the same bonuses from Masterwork Tool(Books) as you have and same Organizational affiliation bonus.... he would never have below 30 Knowledge Check ...... but i would adjust the Stats as follows:
5 Str(9 base - 4 racial)
18 Dex(14 base +4 gloves)
10 Con(10 base)
14 Int(14 base)
30 Wis(17 base +3 lvls +6 Racial +4 amulet)
6 Cha(8 base -2 racial)
thus he gains a Skill trick +5 to Knowledge check(thus knowledge checks always 35+)... and some Spot ranks
thus he can Spot his Target ..... yours Cant
:D
why would i ever want the spells from the Knowledge Domain... this Character is an ARCHER..... this is a very efficient way to gain the Bonus +1 to 2 knowledge Skills and costs nothing
Gotcha ... I just ... am surprised. I normally don't see full casters giving up spells.
look at the Soulknife PrC again.... it states
the BAB is strange, but correct.... until ERRATA or something Official changes it
That is hilarious. Sorry ... I missed that.
you have been quite misleading in regard with Situational bonuses:
yours also requires Haste ... so remove that as well
Mine posts 4 attacks per round at level 12
BAB: +12/+7/+2
Rapid shot for one more attack
BAB: +10/+10/+5/+0 (plus all my bonuses (boni?))
So no, no haste for me.
this character will always be flying ... so it always gets bonuses for high ground
5' high corridor vs dwarf -- do you have high ground advantage?
10' high corridor vs ogre -- do you have high ground advantage?
15' high corridor vs titan -- do you have high ground advantage?
if you are able to use Books to prepare ahead as you have done.... it is reasonable to use Bane weapons... you just dont like it that this character has a variable Arsenal literally at his Fingertips... each day he can choose how he will configure his mindarrows
Nope. I disagreed with the books --as I posted. It took 2 weeks or so for someone to finally agree with me that books were bad. I didn't modify my build to account for that changed ruling.
But, you still don't account for meeting mixed types of creatures in one day.
your Thug or BDF cant fire in Melee without recieving AoO for each shot, mine can
That is correct.
mine is never Unarmed..... and his weapon Cant be Sundered or Stolen.... what does yours do if his Bow is broken? or Stolen(Slight of Hand by a 10th lvl Rogue he wont even know it has been taken)
Can't steal the bow out of my hand. Sorry (that is a disarm check).
If my bow is broken, I cry. Loudly ... with lots of tears. Then I check to see if the wizard's spellbook has been sundered.
mine can Fly to get to the best Firing location to assist the Party... can yours, can he even Climb.. what about firing his bow while going to his Sniper location... i dont think so
If there is a party, then the wizard can cast fly on me.
Lets flip it around ... what sort of social issues does your bat have?
as for the 10 Rounds.... how long would you like combat to run??? until your build can keep up or until the BBEG is dead.... if it takes 3 rounds 3times per day(assuming 3 encounters) what is the problem... how much damage does he have to put out to be effective?
In the games I play, our combats last longer than 3 rounds each ... however, we don't optimize as much as people do here.
also Zen Archery could be earlier ...... actually i would have it at 6th
Then change things around. I can only comment on what you have posted.
also he would have the same bonuses from Masterwork Tool(Books) as you have and same Organizational affiliation bonus.... he would never have below 30 Knowledge Check ...... but i would adjust the Stats as follows:
5 Str(9 base - 4 racial)
18 Dex(14 base +4 gloves)
10 Con(10 base)
14 Int(14 base)
30 Wis(17 base +3 lvls +6 Racial +4 amulet)
6 Cha(8 base -2 racial)
thus he gains a Skill trick +5 to Knowledge check(thus knowledge checks always 35+)... and some Spot ranks
Cool -- flesh it out more. As I mentioned/implied, when you don't post things, I am not going to optimize things for you.
5' high corridor vs dwarf -- do you have high ground advantage?
10' high corridor vs ogre -- do you have high ground advantage?
15' high corridor vs titan -- do you have high ground advantage?
yes... Ground is where your feet are.... if a Halfling is on top of a table , fighting a Human, the Halfling has "High Ground" ..... the relative position is the main thing...... there may be rare circumstances where this character would not be flying; when crawling thru a narrow tube on hands and knees, but he can still fire off Attacks with his Mind Arrows, neither Fighter build can, in fact they are Restricted to "Standing" there and firing arrows.... they suck if forced to be mounted, or if they have to shoot and run away
Nope. I disagreed with the books --as I posted. It took 2 weeks or so for someone to finally agree with me that books were bad. I didn't modify my build to account for that changed ruling.
But, you still don't account for meeting mixed types of creatures in one day.
mixed types are irrelavant if i am aware of 90% of expected encounters... if needed, i can just change to all elemental Damage and will cover the majority of creatures encountered..... at least i have the choice, and can customize my arsenal at will(each day).... you fighters can only use what they have.... and are stuck without the ability to adjust for new opposition
Can't steal the bow out of my hand. Sorry (that is a disarm check).
If my bow is broken, I cry. Loudly ... with lots of tears. Then I check to see if the wizard's spellbook has been sundered.
Disarm or Sunder.... both make your Archers simply food to monsters and ... reduce thier Damage output significantly...... Checking to see if the Wizards Spell Book is Sundered is Foolishness, it has no immediate effect on the Wizards ability to cast spells.... in addition is unreasonable... a Wizard will NEVER have his spellbook out in combat, because he PREPARES his Spells in the morning then PUTS THE BOOK AWAY(in a Pack).... Sundering Spell component pouch or a Clerics Holy Symbol(Divine Focus) is more realistic..... but only if the creatures realize that those things are Required by the characters using them to cast thier spells
If there is a party, then the wizard can cast fly on me.
Lets flip it around ... what sort of social issues does your bat have?
so you need to drain the resources of another party member to be effective, its too bad your fighter is not able to function without the rest of the party holding his hand....
social issues?? ... in a world with MAGIC, where inhuman Monsters Freely roam the streets of cities.... no social issues, this character is not the Party face and is not attempting a leadership role... it is an ARCHER... but it is a small creature that looks like it could be the Wizards Familiar, it could even pretend to be if needed... and they are common enough that it should cause no problems
this response was done hastily since the Stupid
boards ate my previous responses, and they have been down so much
:headexplo :hoppingma :D
yes... Ground is where your feet are.... if a Halfling is on top of a table , fighting a Human, the Halfling has "High Ground" ..... the relative position is the main thing
I did not know that, so a bat 5' off the ground has a high ground advantage to something that is looking down on him (15' tall)? Doesn't make sense, but if that is the rules ...
mixed types are irrelavant if i am aware of 90% of expected encounters... if needed, i can just change to all elemental Damage and will cover the majority of creatures encountered..... at least i have the choice, and can customize my arsenal at will(each day).... you fighters can only use what they have.... and are stuck without the ability to adjust for new opposition
Not sure that would be good enough ... bane is +2 +2d6 (i.e. +2/+9) while elemental damage is 1d6 (+0/+3.5). The difference is huge. Also, as you get up in levels, the amount of things that is not immune / resistance to at least one type of energy becomes less and less.
Disarm or Sunder.... both make your Archers simply food to monsters and ... reduce thier Damage output significantly...... Checking to see if the Wizards Spell Book is Sundered is Foolishness, it has no immediate effect on the Wizards ability to cast spells.... in addition is unreasonable... a Wizard will NEVER have his spellbook out in combat, because he PREPARES his Spells in the morning then PUTS THE BOOK AWAY(in a Pack)....
Actually, in any campaign where the DM is actively sundering the archers bow, and the party members do not cast GMW on a mundane bow for the archer, then I would expect the wizard to get his spellbook sundered in the morning by some invisible/incorporal/stonewarden/cleric firing energy arrows through the ground/etc monstrosity.
so you need to drain the resources of another party member to be effective, its too bad your fighter is not able to function without the rest of the party holding his hand....
Can we drop this please ... teamwork = good.
Anthro Chordevoc
Small creature
+4 Dex, +2 Con, +6 Wis, -2 Cha
Fly speed 30ft (average)
Weapon Finesse bonus feat
I'm not sure what the LA for it is, since it's from the RotW book, but it seems like a good idea to me... (it also makes the Zen archery feat less important for the lower levels) Even if it has a +1 LA, with buyoff that's not bad at all.
What about instead of an Anthro bat, why not use a Chordevoc?
Anthro Chordevoc
Small creature
+4 Dex, +2 Con, +6 Wis, -2 Cha
Fly speed 30ft (average)
Weapon Finesse bonus feat
I'm not sure what the LA for it is, since it's from the RotW book, but it seems like a good idea to me... (it also makes the Zen archery feat less important for the lower levels) Even if it has a +1 LA, with buyoff that's not bad at all.
because Chordevoc is great, but is only listed as an animal, and does not have an Anthropomorphic version... you can make one with your DMs permission... but Anthropomorphic Bat is already made (look in the link i provided)... Chordevoc is Better, IIRC it is Tiny and gets Blindsight vs Bats Blindsense, and flys better
:D
Can we drop this please ... teamwork = good.
Teamwork yes, being a leach, no.
"Likewise, these enhancement bonuses also improve your soulknife base attack bonus."
Widely panned as one of many editing errors in the CPsi, shortly after it's release, this is not something the CO board can't handle ... a unique BAB improvement mechanic. The soulknife is fading into oblivion, but the Soulbow is still carnivore-able.
{ ... rhymes with /shaddap/ ... }
Actually, in any campaign where the DM is actively sundering the archers bow, and the party members do not cast GMW on a mundane bow for the archer, then I would expect the wizard to get his spellbook sundered in the morning by some invisible/incorporal/stonewarden/cleric firing energy arrows through the ground/etc monstrosity.
did you ever watch the movie "Braveheart".... it was surprisingly accurate for some things..... one was the way Cavalry was used to take out the Archers
the best way to take out Archers... close to Melee and poke them with sharp pieces of metal until they fall down... if an Archer even tried to fire a shot, the first AoO they would recieve would be directed at the Bow(Hardness 5, HP 5)... this is a Common response to nullifying the threat of an archer, and it is one of the few times that i have seen Sundering used(vs Shields, Holy Symbols, Spell component pouches, are the others i have seen)
it is completely unreasonable to have a Wizards Spellbook Sundered everymorning by some "invisible/incorporal/stonewarden/cleric firing energy arrows through the ground/etc monstrosity".... that statement is ridiculous.
is that how your games are played?... is that how you DM?
i agree with Previn ..... it is one thing for Teamwork.... it is another to be using the rest of the party to make up for all of your Inability to contribute constructively without thier help..... why dont you make a Fighter Archer who does NOT rely on someone else to cast Spells on them every day to be effective..... its possible, and i feel you are capable of doing it, but it will reduce the total output of your fighter if he has to do everything himself... but why not try it and see what you can come up with, id be interested in the results
:D
Yep.
"Likewise, these enhancement bonuses also improve your soulknife base attack bonus."
Widely panned as one of many editing errors in the CPsi, shortly after it's release, this is not something the CO board can't handle ... a unique BAB improvement mechanic. The soulknife is fading into oblivion, but the Soulbow is still carnivore-able.
{ ... rhymes with /shaddap/ ... }
you da man ;)
:D
the best way to take out Archers... close to Melee and poke them with sharp pieces of metal until they fall down... if an Archer even tried to fire a shot, the first AoO they would recieve would be directed at the Bow(Hardness 5, HP 5)... this is a Common response to nullifying the threat of an archer, and it is one of the few times that i have seen Sundering used(vs Shields, Holy Symbols, Spell component pouches, are the others i have seen)
Question ... you have seen JaronK's archer -- yet didn't say anything when I explained Douse the Flames ... but now, you are explaining the exact situation i was talking about -- how cool.
it is completely unreasonable to have a Wizards Spellbook Sundered everymorning by some "invisible/incorporal/stonewarden/cleric firing energy arrows through the ground/etc monstrosity".... that statement is ridiculous.
is that how your games are played?... is that how you DM?
Yes, I do not sunder the non-casters primary weapon -- and i do not sunder a spellcasters spellbook.
If you have all the enemies sundering archer's bows -- then you are really saying "don't play an archer" ... and hurting the players effectiveness when you do so.
i agree with Previn ..... it is one thing for Teamwork.... it is another to be using the rest of the party to make up for all of your Inability to contribute constructively without thier help..... why dont you make a Fighter Archer who does NOT rely on someone else to cast Spells on them every day to be effective..... its possible, and i feel you are capable of doing it, but it will reduce the total output of your fighter if he has to do everything himself... but why not try it and see what you can come up with, id be interested in the results
/confused ...
I posted two fighter builds (thug + BDF) -- neither of which uses any outside help. however, it is easy to take that stub, toss him in a party setting (recitation/blessed aim/haste/etc) and see his damage output increase.
:D
Question ... you have seen JaronK's archer -- yet didn't say anything when I explained Douse the Flames ... but now, you are explaining the exact situation i was talking about -- how cool.
can you give me a link .... i would like to see the post, but there is so much arguing there... i have not been following it very closely.... i have simply tried to post some build ideas, rather than Arguments... and see how they are evaluated.....
Yes, I do not sunder the non-casters primary weapon -- and i do not sunder a spellcasters spellbook.
If you have all the enemies sundering archer's bows -- then you are really saying "don't play an archer" ... and hurting the players effectiveness when you do so.
i have NPCs play the way they are portrayed in the Monster Manual... some are Intelligent enough to Target Specific Weapons, others recognize the Threat Spellcasters pose .... some are simply Unintelligent so dont even bother with certain Special Attacks ...... each encounter i run the NPCs act in a way that corresponds with thier entry.... exa:
ANKHEG..... will simply attack whoever seems the best meal(random chance).. it wont know the difference between a holy Symbol or Longbow
ATHACH ..... smarter, will attack Weaker opponents(unarmored... it doesnt know the difference between a Monk or a Wizard) from its perspective, but will close to melee immediately... it also will not make use of Sunder, or Disarm... but will make use of Charge, Grapple, Bullrush, overrun... and knows where major damage is comming from and will attack source
ARANEA .... much smarter... will make use of better tactics, will recognize more damgerous opponents(Spellcasters) and will use Sunder and Disarm along with other tactical Special Attacks if applicable
GOBLIN ..... not very smart, but very crafty and Sneaky... recognizes threats(spellcasters, Archers) and deal with accordingly... rely on Numbers, Ambushes, Trickery... but Cowards, will retreat if situation looks bad .... usually are directed by commanders who are Smarter or Stronger
Kobolds .... similar to goblins, similar tactics
each type of creature i run... acts in a way that does not allow for metagaming... i roll for whether they Know something... if they dont - they dont, if they do they can act accordingly..... if a group of PCs make enemies of a BBEG who decides to take revenge on them by hiring someone to take them out..... the BBEG will supply info to his hireling as best he can(this leaves many gaps in info)... and the hireling makes the best attempt he can within his resources and Personality
/confused ...
I posted two fighter builds (thug + BDF) -- neither of which uses any outside help. however, it is easy to take that stub, toss him in a party setting (recitation/blessed aim/haste/etc) and see his damage output increase.
good point... you are quite correct ... they make Good Archers that are not reliant on the party for Buffing.... for combat situations, they are very useful.... everywhere else though(90%+ of the Time) .... What do they contribute????
:D
For the flying builds, would skewer foe (CoR) or Plunging Shot (RotW) come in handy at all? It seems like the extra d6's per shot would help.
yes both would be very nice.... at higher levels i would take both feats
:D
good point... you are quite correct ... they make Good Archers that are not reliant on the party for Buffing.... for combat situations, they are very useful.... everywhere else though(90%+ of the Time) .... What do they contribute????
Oh, I hadn't known that out-of-combat took up 90% of the campaign.
Well, you have seen Bob's treatise on "You don't need skill points to hit PHB DCs" ... that takes care of more than 1/2 the skills. The Thug has lots of knowledge skills as well as diplomacy (scaling DCs). So ... they contribute .. lots? They do not open locks, nor do they search for traps (thats what the rogue is for) ... they don't cast spells (thats what the arcane/divine is for).
As far as choosing enemies that will opt to sunder the PCs bow. As a DM, that is a choice you need to make. If you continue to select NPCs knowing that they plan on destroying the archer's bow ... how is that any different than saying "Don't play an archer"? Also, when you keep sundering the PCs bow, does the PC keep finding tons of treasure to bring him back up to WBL?
Oh, I hadn't known that out-of-combat took up 90% of the campaign.
in any Day(24 hour period) .... there are 14400 rounds...... if you remove 4800 rounds for sleep... leaving 9600 rounds left in the day..... are you saying "You are in Combat for more than 960 Rounds each day"...
wow, you guys sure must level quickly.... and since your Archer is firing arrows the whole time @ minimum 2/round... how is he carrying all those arrows again??... your games are amazing, simply amazing
Well, you have seen Bob's treatise on "You don't need skill points to hit PHB DCs" ... that takes care of more than 1/2 the skills. The Thug has lots of knowledge skills as well as diplomacy (scaling DCs). So ... they contribute .. lots? They do not open locks, nor do they search for traps (thats what the rogue is for) ... they don't cast spells (thats what the arcane/divine is for).
how is your Thug doing much of anything else(except a weak Diplomacy check)... he has invested all his skill points in Knowledge Skills to be competetive.... i would love to see "Bob's treatise on "You don't need skill points to hit PHB DCs", .... got a link
As far as choosing enemies that will opt to sunder the PCs bow. As a DM, that is a choice you need to make. If you continue to select NPCs knowing that they plan on destroying the archer's bow ... how is that any different than saying "Don't play an archer"? Also, when you keep sundering the PCs bow, does the PC keep finding tons of treasure to bring him back up to WBL?
no thats not it at all... the idea is . ...... DONT BE STUPID AND TRY TO SHOOT ARROWS IN MELEE!! ... IDIOT players that choose to fire Bows in Melee without Close-combat Shot ability or Cover/Concealment of some kind, deserve to have thier Bows Sundered
the nice thing about my Soulbow build:
[indent]1)cant Sunder my weapon
2)unlimited Ammo supply(magical customizeable)
3)mine has CLOSE COMBAT ability
4)mine can Fly(even Hover) even in an Antimagic Field, without any help from someone else
5)mine has better Out-of-Combat abilities.... for the measily 8640 rounds left in the day[/indent]
:D
how is your Thug doing much of anything else(except a weak Diplomacy check)... he has invested all his skill points in Knowledge Skills to be competetive.... i would love to see "Bob's treatise on "You don't need skill points to hit PHB DCs", .... got a link
I've read it. It basically boils down to "most skill check DCs aren't that high, so you can make them if you don't invest skill points." What he fails to mention is that for the skills that are actually important, the DCs are high... it's just that the majority of DCs (most of which don't often come up, like the DC to craft a lantern or to increase someone's rate of healing at night) are low.
However, the skills that matter all have high DCs. Hide and Move Silently are opposed rolls, so you have to keep those up. Diplomacy requires DCs ranging from 25 to the high 100s, depending on what you're trying to do with it. Spot DCs are insanely high if you want to start encounters from long range (a big issue for archers), and are often opposed checks. UMD checks can be super high too. Iajuitsu Focus checks want to be around 50 if you can swing it. If you're using Mounted Combat, you need some very high Ride checks to make good use of that feat.
Basically, skills that matter usually require either opposed checks or high DCs. There are exceptions, but that's generally the case. But there's so many trivially easy skill checks that one can honestly say that most DCs can be made without ranks. However, since it's mostly checks you don't care about anyway that can be made without ranks reliably (yay, I can jump 10 feet), in actual play Bob's treatise makes absolutely no sense. Yes, a Fighter can pretty easily climb a wall that has a rope attached or or make other trivially easy DCs, but in the end no one cares.
JaronK
Question ... you have seen JaronK's archer -- yet didn't say anything when I explained Douse the Flames ... but now, you are explaining the exact situation i was talking about -- how cool.
Huh? You were claiming having a single use per encounter Douse the Flames was showing how your character was good at leadership. That was was my objection... it's not. It's an escape route, nothing more. Personally, I'd prefer a withdraw action, but if they have reach you might use it and hope you hit. My objection wasn't that it couldn't be used to escape... it was that it's not leadership, it's just an escape trick.
Yes, I do not sunder the non-casters primary weapon -- and i do not sunder a spellcasters spellbook.
A lot of players use Adamantine weapons for a reason. The Hardeness spell helps out a lot there too. So does Augment Object. An Adamantine weapon with CL 14 Hardness on it has a hardness of 27... that's usually good enough. Unfortunately, you can't have an Adamantine bow. And what kind of moronic spellcaster has his spellbook out all the time where people can sunder it?
If you have all the enemies sundering archer's bows -- then you are really saying "don't play an archer" ... and hurting the players effectiveness when you do so.
No, you're saying "protect yourself." Notice how my current Cleric has methods of staying away from combat. The other one was going to persist Anti-Life Aura for that very purpose. Seriously, don't enemies use tactics when they fight you? Or do they run up and then pull their punches?
JaronK
If, as an archer, your constantly provoking AoO's from people by shooting, then by all means break their bow because tactically this is a sound decision by most intelligent creatures.
If the archer is just standing back and someone decides to run up and smash his bow apart with a charge attack, I can see where it would get annoying. Tactically, only a few creatures would have the reasoning to do something like this, considering most things you fight would rather kill you and take your stuff for themselves if they are things like orcs, goblins, etc. If they are mindless undead they really don't care that your shooting at them, just that your an extra spicy (spiky?) filet mignon waiting to be eaten.
Of course, there are reasons DMs can do such things, but they shouldn't do it often since it's just like sending a Rust Monster after the Fighter or similar. There are a few fixes, like Aurorium or Adamantine weapons, but those options are usually costly and not available at the levels before you can stop provoking attacks of opportunities and the like.
I'm not quite sure if any of that made sense, but oh well. :D
Knowledge Devotion @15th..... additional +5 Insight to Attack and Damage is fun
Quick Reconoiter would be nice at 18th lvl, get +2 Initiative, and Free Spot and Listen each round..... lets you Spot more often without slowing down
:D
JaronK
As for non ToB, I believe in the end it was indeed the Cleric at higher levels. Chain of Eyes to acquire targets, then cut lose and destroy everything.
As for non ToB non casting, you have to specify a level range.
JaronK
Pious Templar: Complete Divine
Hit-and-run Fighter: Drow of the Underdark
Cragtop Archer: Races of Stone
Wildrunner: ???
There was a thread somewhere about (ab)using this w/ Arcane Archer's Phase Arrow, to basically hit anything in a dungeon while waiting outside of it... It wasn't really a bad idea, imo, just very focused.
Also, Binder levels could net Leraje's Ricochet Shot, which kind of sucks normally, but might combine well w/ Imbue Arrow...
I don't really play any kind of Fighter normally, so sorry if this isn't helpful (I realize this is not an arcanist Fighter thread, but noticed a few builds w/ some empty feat slots, so thought I'd chime in on the Binding option).
-Give up Heavy Armor and Tower Shield proficiency for good (no matter how many classes you get them from).
-Gain +2 to Initiative checks. Gain your Dexterity as a competence bonus to damage vs. flat-footed opponents within 30' (effectively: gain Sudden Strike equal to your Dexterity).
In other words, an archer loses nothing 'cause they're Dex-based anyways and thus would never use heavy armor and sure as hell would never use Tower Shield with their two-handed bow, and gains an initiative boost and their primary stat in damage vs. flat-footed opponents.
JaronK
JaronK
Well, I believe at the front of the section it says it's Drow alternate class features.
JaronK
The section is named "Alternative Class Features" and even speaks of them generally as if they were planned for PCs, but each class is prefixed with "Drow X", so it's "Drow Bard", "Drow Fighter" and so on. That said, blah.
JaronK
Wood Elf
Ranger(Champion of the Wild) 6/ Pious Templar 4/ Hit and Run Fighter 2/ Cragtop Archer 3/ Wildrunner 2/ Ranger +3
Feats, level:
1) Point Blank Shot
3) Weapon Focus(Longbow)
6) True Believer(Elhonna)
9) Ranged Weapon Mastery
12) Mountain Warrior
15) Open Feat
18) Open Feat
Feats, bonus:
1) Track
2) Rapidshot
3) Endurance
4) Precise Shot
6) Manyshot
9) Weapon Specialization(Longbow)
10) Improved Rapidshot
11) Woodland Archer
12) Far Shot
19) Some Bonus Feat
Order's probably off, but something like that.
Can you post some numbers at various levels, for comparison's sake ...
Compare to JaronK's cleric, and my two fighters please ...
Cleric wins hands down past low levels. Cleric archers are *better* than fighter archers because the have spells. The goal of this thread is to get the most *without* buffs.
That said, mine wins vs yours. Wandchamber of find the gap+manyshot.
"Cleric wins hands down past low levels?" -- can you refresh my memory as to the metrics that proved this, unless you referred to "assemble an army of archers" = being a better archer ...
Remember, being an archer ... is being an archer. I fail to see how casting spells helps you in this (unless you refer to self-buffing spells, like JaronK used).
Can you post the numbers for your character at the levels we posted. Depending, I will concede that yours is superior.
[EDIT] Also, can you explain to me how your Champion of the Wild ranger is using the wands? Is this a UMD success?
Full Attack: 29/29/29/29/24/19/14 (assuming Dex-bonus:+8)
Damage: 1d8+4+Str+Cha+1(Vile)
Build
Race: Xeph
Cloistered Cleric(UA) 1/ Champion of the Wild Ranger(CC) 6/ Pious Templar(CDiv) 4/ Whirling Frenzy Barbarian(UA) 1/ Order of the Bow(CWar) 4/ Warrior of Darkness (BoVD) 3/ Fighter 1
Feats:
1st: True Believer (Solonor Thelandira)
3rd: Power Attack
6th: Divine Might (CWar)
9th: Improved Rapid Shot
12th: Xeph Celerity (CPsi)
15th: Iron Will (could be any other feat, if you by Iron Will for 3k)
18th: Vile Martial Strike (BoVD)
Bonus Feats:
1st: Point Blank Shot (Elf Domain)
1st: Weapon Focus: Longbow (War Domain)
1st: Knowledge Devotion (dropping Knowledge Domain)
2nd: Track (Ranger)
3rd: Rapid Shot (Ranger)
4th: Endurance (Ranger)
5th: Precise Shot (Champion of the Wild)
7th: Manyshot (Ranger)
10th: Weapon Specialization (Pious Templar)
11th: Ranged Weapon Mastery (Pious Templar)
16th: Greater Weapon Focus (Order of the Bow)
19th: Far Shot (Warrior of Darkness)
20th: open Fighter feat
Class Features:
2nd: 1st Favored Enemy
6th: 2nd Favored Enemy
8th: Mettle
9th: Smite 1/day
10th: DR 1/-
12th: Whirling Frenzy
14th: Close Combat Shot
17th: +1 Dex
18th: Darkling Weapon
BAB:+19
Base Saves: Fort:+19; Ref:+11; Will:+17(w/Iron Will)
Race: Xeph
Cloistered Cleric(UA) 1/ Champion of the Wild Ranger(CC) 6/ Pious Templar(CDiv) 4/ Whirling Frenzy Barbarian(UA) 1/ Order of the Bow(CWar) 4/ Warrior of Darkness (BoVD) 3/ Fighter 1
Feats:
1st: True Believer (Solonor Thelandira)
3rd: Power Attack
6th: Divine Might (CWar)
9th: Improved Rapid Shot
12th: Xeph Celerity (CPsi)
15th: Iron Will (could be any other feat, if you by Iron Will for 3k)
18th: Vile Martial Strike (BoVD)
Bonus Feats:
1st: Point Blank Shot (Elf Domain)
1st: Weapon Focus: Longbow (War Domain)
1st: Knowledge Devotion (dropping Knowledge Domain)
2nd: Track (Ranger)
3rd: Rapid Shot (Ranger)
4th: Endurance (Ranger)
5th: Precise Shot (Champion of the Wild)
7th: Manyshot (Ranger)
10th: Weapon Specialization (Pious Templar)
11th: Ranged Weapon Mastery (Pious Templar)
16th: Greater Weapon Focus (Order of the Bow)
19th: Far Shot (Warrior of Darkness)
20th: open Fighter feat
Class Features:
2nd: 1st Favored Enemy
6th: 2nd Favored Enemy
8th: Mettle
9th: Smite 1/day
10th: DR 1/-
12th: Whirling Frenzy
14th: Close Combat Shot
17th: +1 Dex
18th: Darkling Weapon
BAB:+19
Base Saves: Fort:+19; Ref:+11; Will:+17(w/Iron Will)
Now for the level 12 comparison between DMM Persist Cloistered Cleric-as-archer, and Fighter Variant Thug-as-archer
(click here for the level 10 thug vs cleric comparison)Level 12 ThugNow, for the level 12 thug
Stats: Str 18 (15+1 level bump, +2 magic), Dex 19 (15+2 level bump, +2 magic), Con: 12, Int 14, Wis: 10, Char 8
1: Education (human), PBS (1st)
2: Martial Study: Douse the Flames
3: WF Greatbow
4: Weapon Specialization (Greatbow)
6: Many Shot, Shape Soulmeld: Lucky Dice
8: Rapid Shot,
9: Ranged Weapon Mastery
10: Improved Rapid Shot
12: Greater WF, Precise Shot
Hitpoints: 82.5 (10+5.5*11+12)
AC: 21 (10 +5 armor, +2 shield, +4 dex), 26 vs ranged attacks
Skills: Knowledge (The Planes) +15 (+2 reference books, +1 trait, +2 int, +5 relic) +25), Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +15 (+2 reference books, +1 trait, +2 int, +5 relic) +25), Knowledge (Nature) +15 (+2 reference books, +1 trait, +2 int, +5 relic) +25), Knowledge (Religeon) +15 (+2 reference books, +1 trait, +2 int, +5 relic) +25), Knowledge (Arcana) +15 (+2 reference books, +1 trait, +2 int, +5 relic) +25), Knowledge (Local) +15 (+2 reference books, +1 trait, +2 int, +5 relic) +25), Knowledge (History) 1 (+2 reference book, +1 trait, +2 int, +5 relic = +11, Diplomacy +12 (14)
Skill Trick: Collector of Stories
Traits: Absent Minded (-1 to spot/listen, +1 to Knowledge skills)
Joined the Church of the Luck Domain (+2 to knowledge checks to prepare for an upcoming challenge)
Backstory: PHB2 Formally trained, PHB bandit king
Equipment
Scrolls of Uncertain Providence
Mighty Composite Dragon bone Longbow(str+4) +4
Spiked Chain Shirt +1
Buckler
Greater Strongarm Bracers of Archery
Gloves of dex +2
Belt of Str +2
Cloak of White Raven: Novice
The same field books you use, using the same way.
The +1 Diplomacy item from Eberron
Knowledge Devotion:
Using an average roll (a 10) puts me one under the magic +5 value, however, two of my knowledges have a +1 bonus because of education (i.e. hits +5), and I can use my skill trick on the others. Additionally, I have a +2 bonus on knowledge checks to prepare for an upcoming challenge. So, I am just taking the +5.
My attacks:
To Hit: BAB+12, Bow+4, WF+1, Greater WF +1, Knowledge+5, Ranged Weapon Mastery +2, Bracers of Archery +2, dex +4, lucky dice +1 = +32
Damage: 1d8+2 (weapon specialization) +2 (ranged mastery) + 4 (str) +4 (bow) +5 (knowledge) +1 (lucky Dice)+1 (bracers)= 1d8+19
Full attack: +32/+32/+27/+22, 1d8+19
An archer build without any money spend on magic items:
Full Attack: 29/29/29/29/24/19/14 (assuming Dex-bonus:+8)
Damage: 1d8+4+Str+Cha+1(Vile)Build
Race: Xeph
Cloistered Cleric(UA) 1/ Champion of the Wild Ranger(CC) 6/ Pious Templar(CDiv) 4/ Whirling Frenzy Barbarian(UA) 1/ Order of the Bow(CWar) 4/ Warrior of Darkness (BoVD) 3/ Fighter 1
Feats:
1st: True Believer (Solonor Thelandira)
3rd: Power Attack
6th: Divine Might (CWar)
9th: Improved Rapid Shot
12th: Xeph Celerity (CPsi)
15th: Iron Will (could be any other feat, if you by Iron Will for 3k)
18th: Vile Martial Strike (BoVD)
Bonus Feats:
1st: Point Blank Shot (Elf Domain)
1st: Weapon Focus: Longbow (War Domain)
1st: Knowledge Devotion (dropping Knowledge Domain)
2nd: Track (Ranger)
3rd: Rapid Shot (Ranger)
4th: Endurance (Ranger)
5th: Precise Shot (Champion of the Wild)
7th: Manyshot (Ranger)
10th: Weapon Specialization (Pious Templar)
11th: Ranged Weapon Mastery (Pious Templar)
16th: Greater Weapon Focus (Order of the Bow)
19th: Far Shot (Warrior of Darkness)
20th: open Fighter feat
Class Features:
2nd: 1st Favored Enemy
6th: 2nd Favored Enemy
8th: Mettle
9th: Smite 1/day
10th: DR 1/-
12th: Whirling Frenzy
14th: Close Combat Shot
17th: +1 Dex
18th: Darkling Weapon
BAB:+19
Base Saves: Fort:+19; Ref:+11; Will:+17(w/Iron Will)
As for the Knowledge Devotion: I should have enough skillpoints to get a +2 or +3 bonus on an average roll, which would be added then.
You (without magic items):
Full attack: +24/+24/+19/+14 (including +4 from Knowledge Devotion)
Damage: 1d8+11 (including +4 from Knowledge Devotion)
As for relics: MIC (p.222): Relics are generally not availible for purchase...
An archer build with some money spend on magic items:
Full Attack: 39/39/39/39/34/29/24
Damage: [1d8+25+1(Vile)+1d6(any element)]*2(Splitting)Build
Race: Xeph
Cloistered Cleric(UA) 1/ Champion of the Wild Ranger(CC) 6/ Pious Templar(CDiv) 4/ Whirling Frenzy Barbarian(UA) 1/ Order of the Bow(CWar) 4/ Warrior of Darkness (BoVD) 3/ Fighter 1
Feats:
1st: True Believer (Solonor Thelandira)
3rd: Power Attack
6th: Divine Might (CWar)
9th: Improved Rapid Shot
12th: Xeph Celerity (CPsi)
15th: Iron Will (could be any other feat, if you by Iron Will for 3k)
18th: Vile Martial Strike (BoVD)
Bonus Feats:
1st: Point Blank Shot (Elf Domain)
1st: Weapon Focus: Longbow (War Domain)
1st: Knowledge Devotion (dropping Knowledge Domain)
2nd: Track (Ranger)
3rd: Rapid Shot (Ranger)
4th: Endurance (Ranger)
5th: Precise Shot (Champion of the Wild)
7th: Manyshot (Ranger)
10th: Weapon Specialization (Pious Templar)
11th: Ranged Weapon Mastery (Pious Templar)
16th: Greater Weapon Focus (Order of the Bow)
19th: Far Shot (Warrior of Darkness)
20th: open Fighter feat
Class Features:
2nd: 1st Favored Enemy
6th: 2nd Favored Enemy
8th: Mettle
9th: Smite 1/day
10th: DR 1/-
12th: Whirling Frenzy
14th: Close Combat Shot
17th: +1 Dex
18th: Darkling Weapon
BAB:+19
Base Saves: Fort:+19; Ref:+11; Will:+17(w/Iron Will)
1) You don't even have knowledge devotion as a feat. Knock off 5 TH/DMG.
2) I'm attacking touch AC. That means 3 arrows hit at level 12. You need to hit 300% combined chance to hit over your full attack to keep up.
3) You have a net +3ish damage and +1 to hit over my guy from build. My guy can use raptor arrows (24k isn't a big hit at level 12). Those COMPLETELY ECLIPSE your bonuses.
Ah ... good call, had forgotten that this copy of the build had that glaring error. So yes, that was an error (easily fixed -- replacing the soul meld with it -- reducing tohit/damage by 1).
So, find the gap ... per Spell Compendium -- affects the first attack (which normally hits anyway - do you agree?) -- how is this a large benefit? Or are you reading "The first attack is a touch attack" and "Both arrows use the same attack roll (with a –4 penalty) to determine success" -- to mean that the first attack roll is touch attack? (as opposed to one of the arrows being touch attack and the other not). Not trying to debate this ruling. Trying for understanding (in short, just answer "yes" if that is how it works, and i will answer "ok")
Next question: When you use Find the Gap (casting time, 1 standard), is that before or after combat starts -- meaning, is the benefit large enough to give up one round of attacks?
Regardless: Since manyshot only works up to 30' away, how does your character perform in other situations?
Last question: Since you plan on using raptor arrows (returning property), do I understand how that works to mean that your character is not able to move. (Per SRD: If the character can’t catch it, or if the character has moved since throwing it, the weapon drops to the ground in the square from which it was thrown). Raptor arrows provide about a +3 to hit, +8 to damage bonus -- do you agree?
Can you post your numbers for level 12 to compare?
Also, I only need to hit 285%, not 300% (1's miss). For ACs up to 33, I meet or exceed those values. So, not a big deal.
Seriously, my guy could just full attack and come ahead. It's not even a comparison. Stop wasting my time and actually look up the things I'm citing before posting.
See, the thing is, without you posting numbers, I don't see your character coming out way ahead ... from my above information (you need 1 turn of prep, all enemies within 30 feet, no need to move), then, it really depends on AC of enemy, as at AC 30, I do 330% of an attack (total iterative hit chance), which, depending on your damage, is more than your attack.
Oh, and yes, both JaronK and I understand the cleric-archer ... we spend a few weeks (maybe as long as a month) crunching numbers around 10th and 12th level ...
I need no item to get Dex +8. Starting Dex is 18 +2(racial) +5(Levels) +1(Warrior of Darkness)
Ah -- thanks for that
As for the Knowledge Devotion: I should have enough skillpoints to get a +2 or +3 bonus on an average roll, which would be added then.
Could be, I dont know what all those PrCs/variants do ... but, remember that you are paying 2 skill points per knowledge skill (cross class) -- and that there are a lot of different checks (i think jaronk and i each had 6 or so)
You (without magic items):
Full attack: +24/+24/+19/+14 (including +4 from Knowledge Devotion)
Damage: 1d8+11 (including +4 from Knowledge Devotion)
Luckily I am not built for no-magic. FYI -- this build, and its partner (BDF) were part of a single-class fighter vs cleric competition.
Meanwhile, why the heck would Meyer want Woodland Archery? It's only useful if you're firing a ton of shots and missing at least once early in the firing sequence... but his to hit numbers are high enough that that's unlikely at best.
Claiming Knowledge Devotion always stinks but no one should ever go without Woodland Archery is bizarre. Why would a potencial up to +5 to hit and damage stink when +4 to hit only after you've missed once this round be awesome? And is knowing your enemy now really a bad thing? Heck, we considering that a main party role in my groups. Sure, you need some skill points to both knowledges and spotting, but still.
And what's up with the archer that's never allowed to move at all once he begins his firing sequence due to returning arrows? That's never a good plan.
Not to mention... Manyshot is one attack roll, but it's a volley attack. Find the Gap may not work for that the way you think it does, since every ruling has always said that one off effects work for the first part of the volley only. That's dubious at best.
JaronK
No, and here's why. My build wins hands down. Yours doesn't have woodland archer (effectively +4 to hit and sniping capability). Yours has EWP:Greatbow, greater weapon focus, and lucky dice where mine has mountain warrior and bane arrows (+3 to hit, which is one over yours and +9 to damage where yours has 2 from greatbow and 1 from lucky dice, so 6 more damage per hit).
You understand that the above is not an accurate statement.
With you spending 24,000 on raptor arrows, there are items you are giving up ... so your numbers might be less than what you posted above.
Do you understand this? At the level you gave my build has 1 more point of to hit, woodland archer, 6 more points of damage per hit, AND the option to just ignore high ACs with find the gap+manyshot.
It wins hands down.
I understand that based on the numbers I posted, using find the gap + manyshot is a losing proposition when you are giving up 1 round of attacks to set up, then 1 attack per round ... for ac's 33 and under.
Want to play pure numbers? Fine, I'll just drop woodland archer and mountain warrior for education and knowledge devotion. Since I have more skill points overall I win there too.
Thug + 14int +human = 7 skill points/level ...
Your build averages 5 skill points / level ... you need a 12 int to tie, a 14 int to beat me ... so, you might want to rethink that.
Know why I never include knowledge devotion ******** in archery builds? It eats up ranks and magic item money that could be used on things that are the focus of the build. Like, y'know actually having a decent spot check. Or having decent stealth.
Ah, there is our disconnect. Different focus.
Um, how are you getting the good spot/stealth scores? those are not class abilities of your 2 skill points/level classes?
Attacking at 300' doesn't actually mean anything if you just get promptly fireballed to death. Attacking at 300' doesn't mean anything if you can't actually spot the enemy.
Stealth is important. Perception is important.
Completely true.
However, being able to start combat from a larger distance away, or alternately, being able to shoot from a further distance without taking a range penalty is also good.
I don't have time for ******** item comparisons. The build should stand for itself, and mine does.
Archer,
You realize that I am not attacking you, or your build ... it is a solid build. I am just tossing out something else to compare with. This allows you (or anyone) to decide that there are many different ways to play an archer and that no build is best at anything.
To optimize it, EWP: Greatbow should be dropped from the build, as Bracers of Archery give that proficiency anyway and they're cheap, plus with MiC you can combine them with existing bracers easily.
You might have missed it ... but Bracers of Archery give you bonuses to hit/damage when you are proficient with the weapon you are using ... so the EWP: Greatbow could be read as +1/+2
I do agree that dropping the greatbow and using a normal longbow would be superior for most cases, but remember that range was considered important when we were doing this discussion.
Gear is pretty important with these comparisons though, I've found. Throwing in Scrolls of Uncertain Providence and Tome of Worldly Memory, plus Collector of Stories... that's IIRC a +15 to the appropriate knowledge checks, quite cheap (not sure about stacking of the tome and scrolls though, I'd have to check on that). It makes it pretty easy to hit the appropriate checks, which makes Knowledge Devotion very important for any good archer who wants to actually deal a lot of damage.
Still, both your archers have issues. Yours specifically can't move due to the Raptor arrows (which is why I tend to avoid using those). Personally, I find the ability to fire and move when you have to to be rather important.
Also, if I were rebuilding my Cleric he would have used a footbow since it gives 1.5 strength bonus, and since most of his damage came from size and strength that would have really kicked things up (besides, he was always flying). Not to mention my Cleric was forced by challenge constraints to be a pure Cleric... I think I'd prefer to throw in PrC Ranger, if I had flaws to work with. The feat useage hurts, but I think the spells added to the spell list more than make up for it. Arrow Storm when I've got a range increment that high is incredible (Huge Dragonbone Footbow of Distance with Far Shot... 585 range incriment) for clearing out lower level enemies, and it's persistable. I'm pretty sure one shot each round against everyone within 585' for strength and a half damage beats the tar out of anyone else's build when there's a decent number of enemies around. Hunter's Mercy may be persistable as well (depending on your reading), and there's a bunch of other REALLY nasty ones that also become available.
JaronK
where are they from, and how much do they cost... also what do they give(unnamed bonuses? Competence bonuses?) to what?
:D
what are: "Scrolls of Uncertain Providence and Tome of Worldly Memory"?
where are they from, and how much do they cost... also what do they give(unnamed bonuses? Competence bonuses?) to what?
:D
Scrolls of Uncertain Provenance give +5 sacred bonus. Relic from MIC, page 183. 8000gp. Requires you to be any lawful or true neutral. This bonus is not the relic power, no True believer needed.
Tome of Worldly Memory is from MIC, page 190, a minute of studying gives +5 competence bonus to a knowledge check, usable thrice per day. 1500 gp.
:D
Tome of Worldly Memory is from MIC, page 190, a minute of studying gives +5 competence bonus to a knowledge check, usable thrice per day. 1500 gp.
It's only a standard action if you have 5 ranks in the appropriate knowledge skill, which makes it actually work for Knowledge Devotion. A minute is too long to be useful. So yes, you can use the Tome of Worldly Memory, especially if you're a scouting archer who can see enemies before the fight starts... and yes, Collector of Stories works fine. Not sure why you think it wouldn't, as it's far less dubious than Find the Gap/Manyshot. Then throw on Masterwork tools (I'd call them Field Manuals) for a +2 Circumstance Bonus.
So yes, it's a +17, for a bank breaking 9500gp plus the cost of the masterwork tools (50gp per knowledge skill, generally). Of course, it's only +17 for one creature type per encounter (Collector of Stories works that way), and only against three creature types per day (Tome of Worldly Memory's limit) but it's still darn nice.
Besides, archer, you've got quite the reputation for making unsubstanciated claims and being unable to back them up... don't be surprised when people want to actually see your numbers, especially when you fall back to the old "I know better than you, I'm smarter" or "everybody totally already knows that" defense that you tend to go to when you run out of knowlege. In fact, one thing we found when doing these archer comparisons was that point buy and gear really made a difference. You need to know whether you need the +4 to hit from Woodland Archery, how much Dexterity and Strength a Cleric can actually afford while still getting the Wisdom to cast and the Charisma to persist, when you can start affording metamagic extend rods and beads of karma, and so on.
JaronK
A standard action for +1 to hit and damage for the combat is NOT relevant at the levels you can afford it.
You can afford it at level 3, and it's a standard action before the combat starts... totally worth it, especially as your number of attacks go up (the Cleric, for example, can fire potentially hundreds of shots per round with Arrow Storm, and most of the other archers here were launching 10+ shots per round).
So, you're really quite wrong here. Claiming the Tome doesn't work at all and that Collector of Stories also doesn't work... both false. Claiming that a standard action before combat to get +1 to hit and damage while also gaining potentially useful information about your target isn't relevant is also false. Your Knowledge Devotion argument seems to be quite poor now, as your claims of it costing too much for too little are based on faulty understanding of the rules. At this point, it's clear that under 10kgp and one feat can give an archer around +4 to hit and damage with it. See, when pressed for details, you really start to fall apart. What else in your numbers is entirely wrong? This is why people want to see facts and numbers from you (though really, everyone should be willing to put up actual numbers. "Some guy on the interwebs said so" is hardly an arguement).
JaronK
JaronK: I missed that part of the item, I just read the beginning for carnivore's aid. Good catch.
We've actually got a librarian in our party (both in real life, and her character). She's a Factotum Knowledge Devotion archer who keeps doing everything to boost her knowledge skills... it's proved to be incredible useful in all sorts of ways. We basically know the entire stat block of everything we fight from the get go, and her damage is reasonably decent as well.
So, yeah, I'm pretty familiar with these sorts of items. She's also a gnome, so she can throw Trivial Knowledge into the mix.
JaronK
We've actually got a librarian in our party (both in real life, and her character). She's a Factotum Knowledge Devotion archer who keeps doing everything to boost her knowledge skills... it's proved to be incredible useful in all sorts of ways. We basically know the entire stat block of everything we fight from the get go, and her damage is reasonably decent as well.
So, yeah, I'm pretty familiar with these sorts of items. She's also a gnome, so she can throw Trivial Knowledge into the mix.
JaronK
Human mind is interesting, one remembers som relaly diminutive things if he has seen them in a game. Only today I reminded Sunic that bite attacks deal slashing, piercing and bludgeoning damage; a fact that my DM checked over 1.5 years ago and I have only heard that said once.
You use the item when you make the knowledge check. You can't make a knowledge check for knowledge devotion until combat starts. You CAN'T use the item before combat. Learn what you're talking about.
There is no set "when the combat starts" time. If you're staring at your opponent and reading the book, and then as soon as you finish reading you shoot the enemy... it works. You scout ahead, see your opponent, check your book, and shoot them. Not exactly hard.
Collector of stories was analyzed when CS first came out. Know why it doesn't work? Knowledge devotion isn't a check to determine a monster's vulnerabilities (what CoS applies to). This is COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Ah yes, the old "someone else on the internet did the work and told me, and I parrot them now" argument. Seriously, it's getting old. Knowledge devotion is a check to identify the monster, specifically how to attack the monster. Collector of stories applies to checks to identify how the monster is vulnerable. Same thing. Certainly, it's less of a logical leap than Find the Gap/Manyshot.
Meanwhile, I've only seen one post where someone talked abotu CoS not working with KD... and even that was in the context of "my DM ruled this way, what should I do?" The vast majority thinks it works fine, including every DM I've ever worked with.
And what the heck kind of off topic Godwin was that?
JaronK
This makes the rather gigantic assumption that you can see them, but they can't see you. That's a rather large step from always, isn't it?
Except that we're discussing scouty archer types, so yes, it's a pretty good assumption that you can make it work. Your whole goal is to see the enemy first and start firing... that's the advantage of being a long ranged character. It's a pretty poor archer who's getting jumped all the time. Heck, the Cleric I was talking about used Chain of Eyes to see from the scout's eye view while staying about half a mile away (persistant guided shot). I didn't say always, of course, while you did say "CAN'T" which implies never.
Don't be a nazi. Learn to read.
Edit: Future posts go here
Say something wrong there too, and I might respond there. Meanwhile, the Godwin nonsense is just weird.
Here I can respond because you say things like CoS not working with KD is "COMMON KNOWLEDGE" when in fact the majority of posts on the subject say it works great, or that a Tome of Wordly Knowledge "CAN'T" be used with Knowledge Devotion. So, I correct you.
JaronK
Anyway, the best archer does depend on level. We (Meyer and I, actually) went through this a good bit months ago... Clerics start to really pull ahead around level 10 or so. One thing we didn't analyze was Warblades. They're actually incredibly good, but only if you can abuse Aptitude weapons, and only at higher levels.
JaronK
On another forum he said he was doing it to try to get the thread locked... it's what he does when he runs out of arguments, because he doesn't like to be proved wrong. *shrug*
Anyway, the best archer does depend on level. We (Meyer and I, actually) went through this a good bit months ago... Clerics start to really pull ahead around level 10 or so. One thing we didn't analyze was Warblades. They're actually incredibly good, but only if you can abuse Aptitude weapons, and only at higher levels.
JaronK
Are you interested in restarting the thread -- and examining a different (higher) level? or did we kind of take this far enough already?
Are you interested in restarting the thread -- and examining a different (higher) level? or did we kind of take this far enough already?
I'd love to see it at high level. Perhaps 13 or so, just to see how those higher level spells impact the game. 14 would be better for a Fighter though and I have nothing against that either.
On another forum he said he was doing it to try to get the thread locked... it's what he does when he runs out of arguments, because he doesn't like to be proved wrong. *shrug*
Yeah, I've seen it happen before.
I'm wondering if there's any possible way to make a dungeoncrashing archer... ? Thrown weapons was made possible with Bloodstorm Blade, but is there any (effective) way to accomplish this with projectiles?
From your handy links ;)
Okay, if we're discussing higher level archers, then the Warblades start to really shine. To wit:
Human Feat Rogue 1/Overwhelming Attack Monk 1/Warblade 13 with two flaws (take your pick)
Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Hand Crossbow Mastery, Power Attack, Roundabout Kick, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus (Light Mace), Lightning Mace, Improved Critical (Hand Crossbow), Improved initiative, Quickdraw
Wield a pair of +1 Aptitude Splitting Great Crossbows (note: High equipment dependency, and this takes up 100kgp of your 200kgp total wealth for this level!). Note that Aptitude makes the Great Crossbows function with Hand Crossbow Mastery, Lightning Mace, Roundabout Kick, Improved Critical (Hand Crossbow) and Weapon Focus (Hand Crossbow). You'll most likely want them to be Large (Strongarm Bracers) or Huge (Strongarm Bracers + Permanent Enlarge Person). There's also an item in MiC that gives Far Shot, so use that, and you'll want a Spare Hand from the same book so you can actually hold the crossbows while reloading. I also recommend a Tooth of Lejere if you can afford it for the free +5 on your primary crossbow.
You'll of course be in Blood in the Water, and your favorite manuevers at this level will be Dancing Mongoose, Iron Heart Surge, White Raven Tactics, Clarion Call, and Lion's Roar. At higher levels you'll want Raging Mongoose and eventually Time Stands Still.
Result? Well, because you've got three hands, you can always be firing each crossbow with two hands (since you can use a free action to trade around your third hand for firing, even in the middle of a full attack sequence... if your DM balks at this, use a graft to get a fourth hand). You've got a base of 7 attacks at this level, 9 when using Dancing Mongoose, and splitting doubles all your shots, but the beauty of course is that you critically hit on a 15-20, and every threatened critical gives you two more shots, while every confirmed critical gives yet two more... and you have Int to confirm critical hits. Mean behavior is a bit glitchy, so if you do the math it'll look like infinite shots, but in fact median behavior just results in a heck of a lot of shots... all at greatly boosted damage due to Blood in the Water of course. You're mostly just limited by the number of bolts you can carry.
So, you are in average case firing about 30 or so shots per round, with the damage rapidly getting higher each round (specifically, every 3rd or 4th shot will give you +1 to hit and to damage, stacking with itself, until the encounter ends). Sometimes that will explode and you'll be able to basically just keep firing until everything in the area is dead (if 30 wasn't enough). Dancing Mongoose brings up the average shots a bit. Eventually you'll use Raging Mongoose with Time Stands Still to REALLY ensure everything dies NOW. The White Raven boosts let you act as an excellent field commander for your party, giving them all kinds of extra actions. Really, you're downright devastating, doing insane amounts of damage.
Now, you've got a few weaknesses as an archer. Your range is huge (a Huge Great Crossbow has a base range of 180ft, and far shot is easy to get) but your spotting distance is limited... Spot is only a class skill for two of your levels. You can mitigate this somewhat by taking your Monk level later in the build (when you can dump a bunch of points into spot) or just taking spot ranks cross class (you'll have a ton of skill points, stat priority should be Dex then Int then Con). The cost of your weapons is also very high, and the weapons you need are very specific... you need a party item crafter or access to a magic mart. You also don't really mature until the later levels, though you can at least use a pair of +1 Aptitude Hand Crossbows for much of your career. And of course if you become large (which boosts your damage and range, though it lowers your accuracy a little) there are some difficulties associated with that. But still, for sheer firepower, nothing really beats this at level 15+.
JaronK
JaronK
From your handy links ;)
Well yeah, but that's still thrown weapons. I was wondering if it could be done with bows or similar.
JaronK > archerpwr anyways, so whatever. Btw, SurrealDex still links to Lockdown 2.0, which has been deleted.
You know, some people believe that art is no longer the property of the artist once it has been released...
JaronK > archerpwr anyways, so whatever. Btw, SurrealDex still links to Lockdown 2.0, which has been deleted.
Lockdown 3.0. Pretty much the same as 2.0, but a little updated courtesy of me and archerpwr.