The Nexus has run through three tournament cycles so far and has been dominated by Coraga, a human barbarian with the whirling frenzy variant from Unearthed Arcana.
I'm looking for two things.
1. A character that can take her down.
2. Someone to play said character. ;)
For reference, the Battle Nexus character creation rules and resources can be found here.
Thanks for any input you can provide.
should be do-able.
- A hider who attacks with ranged attacks
- A high defense fighter
- A flyer possibly
- Someone that could go against that weak will save.
For reference, the books usable in the Nexus are:
Core 3
Complete Adventurer, Complete Arcane, Complete Divine, Complete Warrior
Deities and Demigods, Manual of the Planes, Monster Manual II (all using the 3.5 update document download)
Expanded Psionics Handbook
Libris Mortis
Monster Manual III
Races of Eberron
Savage Species (with monster class revisions done by yours truly)
Spell Compendium
Unearthed Arcana (specific options are laid out in the first post of the thread linked to in the first post of this thread)
spec up your DC and dex and take imp init, going last is going kill you..
Tips for the future:
1) Links are bad, no one wants to follow them. [sblock][/sblock] stuff.
2) Issuing "challenges" is usually bad, but yours is fairly well-posed.
A human with maximum Wisdom would have a save DC of 17. Use Heighten Spell and 5 turn attempts to make it DC 21, which is beyond her capabilities.
Then, take your scythe or heavy pick or whatever (you don't actually have to be proficient for what you're about to do) and coup de grace your little heart out.
And you always have Sanctuary as a back-up plan...
you could always beat her at her own game, and counter berserker..
EDIT, i forgot to mention a tripper could be alright... monkey grip'n a XL spike chain.
Otherwise, some sort of Spider Climbing or flying ranged attacker would do the job in a 1 v 1 situation.
Either way Imp Initiative is basically mandatory in PvP arenas imo.
Feats: Aberrant Blood, Inhuman Reach, Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Deft Opportunist
Weapon: some sort of tripping polearm with 10' reach.
JaronK
Hideous laughter
Hold person
Daze
Daze monster
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/colorSpray.htm
command : flee > incures AoO > trip : or halt... or die... (srd dosnt include die..)
sleep
thats my short list of spells from the spell filter. some are win some are just a good start.
Empowered Ego Whip (maybe Wilder if you need to Surge to get the ML up to the required level, afb atm).
In the Core Coliseum, I had excellent success with a psion using Brain Lock; his psicrystal wore barding with armor spikes and could kill the Brain Locked enemy at its leisure.
Otherwise, some sort of Spider Climbing or flying ranged attacker would do the job in a 1 v 1 situation.
Either way Imp Initiative is basically mandatory in PvP arenas imo.
Yes on Spider Climb/Levitate. Improved Initiative may be useless, depending on the size of the arena and whether they start with line of sight or not. In this case, the arena looks like a featureless 50' x 100' rectangle, so Improved Initiative is definitely necessary (unless you prebuff with Invisibility or the like).
I see Libris Mortis there as well. Fell Draining cantrips (Sonic snap, and Caltrops) were always a favorite low level tactic of mine, but it is by no means an instant win.
Be a wizard or cleric, have 3 shatters prepared, and shatter the melee weapons. It's mean but effective.
The problem is that the arena is about one barbarian-charge wide. So it'll be hard to cast three spells without getting thumped at the same time. You need some sort of "immunity to melee" defense like flight, invisibility, super-hiding, etc.
The problem is that the arena is about one barbarian-charge wide. So it'll be hard to cast three spells without getting thumped at the same time. You need some sort of "immunity to melee" defense like flight, invisibility, super-hiding, etc.
Sanctuary should do the trick
Be a wizard or cleric, have 3 shatters prepared, and shatter the melee weapons. It's mean but effective.
By which point the Barbarian has got close enough to you to grapple you and beat you unconscious with his fists.
At high levels grapple is useless, at level 3 I suspect the Wizard/Cleric aren't defended against it.
Hmmm... Abrupt Jaunt would cover it nicely tho. You'd still need a spell to actually put the Barbarian down tho, otherwise you run out of jaunts and then (s)he punches you.
edit - semi-ninja'd, that'll teach me to leave the browser open.
if it were an cheesewrought kobold, then ya, probably..
Really?
SodaGuy: I was thinking the exact same thing ;)
Without derailing the thread over much, what's the problem with Monkey Grip?
From a CO perspecitive it isn't very good, it's basically a crappy version of power attack that you can't turn off.
Actually now I think of it between monkey grip and whirling frenzy she's going to have a hard time hitting anything with a good AC. This is actually one of the rare times I might recommend a sword and board character since you could outlast the whirling frenzy since it's only going to last 3 rounds.
Monkey Grip only works well in specific situations; Power Attack is millions of times better (but this is one of those wonky one-trick-pony situations where Monkey Grip has some mathematical benefit ... drawback being to hit)
then a regular wiz with a bumped up DC can use color spray and scare as an equivilent of time stop... both give you rounds to do your thing. add extend spell to color spray to make it last 4 - 10 rounds. that should be enough time to use every spell you know.
if your a cleric instead use hold person. hold person = helpless = win
hold person, scare, and color spray are all 1 standard action.
using a human w/ flaws just ensures win.
without spells, Goad should work fine. use a move action to stop your opponent from attacking you in melee.
how's about if your a wiz, take imp familiar: worg. (as per the keeps pdf...) 30hp
you cast 1 spell : color spray: barbarian is stunned for at least 4 rounds. worg moves, bites, trips. bites , bites, bites , bites. re color spray, bite x 4 : max one casting damage is 10?x4 bites minimum is 5x 4 bites, worst case it takes 2 castings.
ok worst case is the barb makes the save both times. but your worg is a nice meat shield...
this is of course , if you can use your familiar and if worg is allowed.
From a CO perspecitive it isn't very good, it's basically a crappy version of power attack that you can't turn off.
You turn it off by using a different weapon.
That still doesn't make it a good feat, though.
You turn it off by using a different weapon.
That still doesn't make it a good feat, though.
Or by using the Sizing enhancement.
Monkey Grip Hate, by the math: Monkey Grip turns your 1d10 guisarme (avg damage 5.5) into a 2d6 guisarme (avg damage 7), which is a 1.5 damage upgrade, on average. This at a cost of -2 attack. That's worse than power attacking for 2: a guisarme would do 4 more damage. Even a greatsword goes from 2d6 to 3d6, for 3.5 more damage at -2 attack, not worth it. Feats are costly, and monkey grip is one of the worst feats ever.
Wizard 3 (UA fighter feat variant - Improved Init)
For feats you can get some mileage out of spell focus / greater spell focus (that's +2 to the DC right there).
Assuming wizard with 16 INT and moderate DEX you should have a +mid-low teens init bonus and a DC for 2nd level spells of 17 just with those few feats. A stat booster and/or more points into those scores would be goodness.
And, of course, buy some trained dogs. No reason to fight fair if you can buy stuff from the PHB.
H -- Widen spell
1st -- Sculpt Spell
3rd -- Fiery burst
Sculpt Burning Hands stack the 4 10ft x 10ft squares on top of her that's 4 reflex saves against 4d4 damage per square = 16d4 damage 2.5 damage a die = 40 points of damage total figure she makes 2 of the saves 20 points of damage, probably better out there though, I'm AFB.
*not do able because of book restraints*
OR
Gnome Illusionist
1st -- spell focus(illusion)
3rd -- greater spell focus(illusion)
Readied Action Color Spray --> Sleep --> coup
*EDIT*
I take it back lets have some fun:
Halfling Scout 1/ Battle Sorcerer 2
Str 14, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 12
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Dodge
Familiar: Hedgehog
Spells: Shield, Ray of Frost, Acid Splash
AC: 26 (10 + 1 size + 4 dex + 4 chain shirt + 4 shield + 2 Hedgehog + 1 dodge)
Skills: Max Tumble (6 ranks + 4 dex - 2 Chain shirt = + 8)
1st round: Cast shield
2nd round: Tumble (DC 15) 10 ft Ray of Frost for 1d6 +d3 + 1 damage
3rd round: Repeat 2nd round until out of 0th level spells
Beyond: Tumble (DC 15) 10 ft Throw something for d4 + d6 + 3 damage
Considering her best attack is going to be +10 on a charge (and if you only move 10ft away that charging won't work either) at you that AC should keep you safe. On the other hand those spells are touch attack on an AC 11 (13 - 2 for charge) with + 7 to hit. Once you are out of spells it's AC 13 (15 - 2 for charge) with + 7 to hit.
This could give her long enough to get a hit or two in but it isn't likely (needs 16+ or 18+ if not charging), and should be very annoying (which is why I would do it this way). you negate every advantage she could have and poke at her weaknesses slowly taking her out. Plus no worries of being taken out of the tourney for "accidently" killing her with your coup attack.
imp init
max dex
+8 init, add more if you think its needed, boost your dc the same as a wiz would.
hold person = CDG = check her pockets for change cause she's not gonna need it.
i would be a +1 for the shadow idea, except for the +7 LA, and im not up to seed on how the savage species advancement works..
8d6 sounds like outdamaging.
the cleric version, to me, just seems so much easier.
imp init
max dex
+8 init, add more if you think its needed, boost your dc the same as a wiz would.
hold person = CDG = check her pockets for change cause she's not gonna need it.
i would be a +1 for the shadow idea, except for the +7 LA, and im not up to seed on how the savage species advancement works..
I have not seen Monkey's adaption of the SS progression, but in the book, incorporeal is a racial trait, so he gets it from the get go. so he slowly touches her to 0 str, mumbling something like "this won't be over quickly and you won't enjoy it" or something
I guess it's the best bet really, all the other ideas work with lvl 3 casters and you start with a lvl 1. Won't make it to 3 before facing her i'd say. But it is a bit cheesy and not very future proof. ^_^
I'snt there a way to get 2 scorching rays as a level 1 evoker?
8d6 sounds like outdamaging.
Yes, but not with the books allowed iirc. And 8d6 wouldn't kill her most probably (8x3.5=28), her counter charge though would kill you most probably. ^_^
This looks like something I might be willing to do. I need to make a level one character, right?
Take the Trickery domain, buff up with Invisibility and Sanctuary, and use Summon Swarm.
Summon Swarm has no cap on its duration, beyond Concentration. Summon something immune to weapon damage and wait her out.
Just remember that the swarms that are immune to weapon damage (bats and spiders) have either blindsense or tremorsense, and will approach the nearest living creature, including you.
Use that to your advantage - sneak past her (even if she hears you and knows exactly what square you're in, Invisibility + Sanctuary means that she's pretty unlikely to hit you) and keep her between you and the swarm.
If forced to break invisibility, you can always fall back on Hold Person + coup de grace, or Cause Fear + the Intimidate skill to make her panicked.
EDIT: Bah, just realized Summon Swarm isn't on the cleric spell list. Well, Pestilence domain (CDiv) + Domain Spontaneity feat (same) will let you use it.
I'm not sure if that would work by the rules, but... Isn't she using Monkey Grip and a Large Guisarme for extra range? That would make monkey grip pretty useful, given that you can't get extra range any other way without using magic, with the allowed books. Tripping at 15' is great on an arena. You are out of the range of any melee combatant.
Wielding an even bigger weapon with Monkey Grip does not increase your reach ... I'll look for the rule, but I'm pretty sure on that.
I am preparing
Wielding an even bigger weapon with Monkey Grip does not increase your reach ... I'll look for the rule, but I'm pretty sure on that.
I think that, too. But that would explain why she has taken it. If you think about that, it makes sense, even if it's not legal. An ogre wielding a large guisarme gets 15' range, and one could argue that this is because the longitude of the weapon. We know it doesn't work, but maybe the ones supervising the arena don't.
On the other way, she has taken Combat reflexes for an 1v1 arena. And all his weapons are big. So maybe I'm wrong and she just took it for the extra damage. Unless she has taken Combat Reflexes because it's a prerequisite for other feat/class. But that doesn't explain the weapons.
1:st round: cast Obscuring Mist, move into mist. Use listen to stay away from the raging barbarian, who cannot attack what she can't find and has a hard time killing us. Then, after the rage ends, move out from the fog, draw a longbow and pick her off... One could also buy a light horse to be sure that she'll never catch up.
Thoughts?
Edit: Since it's a druid, we don't need to buy a horse, it's our animal companion!
I have not seen Monkey's adaption of the SS progression, but in the book, incorporeal is a racial trait, so he gets it from the get go. so he slowly touches her to 0 str, mumbling something like "this won't be over quickly and you won't enjoy it" or something
I guess it's the best bet really, all the other ideas work with lvl 3 casters and you start with a lvl 1. Won't make it to 3 before facing her i'd say. But it is a bit cheesy and not very future proof. ^_^
which one is cheesy and not future proof?
i think the shadow peters out fastest.
if your using the SS progression, do you have to take all the shadow levels? if you do, your probably going to get clericed in the next few levels.
if you can stop taking shadow levels, and use something else, you take cleric and bolster your self... or alter self to more advantageous undead.
as far as getting turned / rebuked goes. i would do my best to hide your true nature, if you can...
shadow warlock would rock. fly, incorporeal, ranged EB. summon swarm.. it would be funny to pull a HIVE in the arena.
Yeah, if I were building a character to fight that one, I'd focus on the +0 will save. Typical 3rd-level characters can drop lots of useful will-save-or-die spells at around DC 17 or 18 or so. A martial wizard (UA variant) can get Improved Initiative instead of Scribe Scroll, and can prepare Nerveskitter, that's a +9 initiative mod. Add to that a reasonable DEX, and you've got a pretty good chance of winning initiative. That's all it really takes.
Don't forget, they're using action points -- one of the benefits of an action point is to double the bonus from improved init. They can also be used to add +1 to a spell DC, or gain an extra use of turn undead, or emulate a feat (such as, oh, Extra Turning).
Personally, I'd go cleric with DMM: Heighten Spell and Hold Person. Coup de grace with a pick for the win.
Human
Str 14
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 8
Wis 14
Cha 14
Feats:
Improved Init
Heighten
DMM: Heighten
Emulated Feat: Extra Turning
(Do they allow flaws?)
+10 to init, DC 21 Will save or die. Enough hit points to survive for a round even if he loses init. Seems like an easy win.
Monkey Grip Hate, by the math: Monkey Grip turns your 1d10 guisarme (avg damage 5.5) into a 2d6 guisarme (avg damage 7), which is a 1.5 damage upgrade, on average. This at a cost of -2 attack. That's worse than power attacking for 2: a guisarme would do 4 more damage. Even a greatsword goes from 2d6 to 3d6, for 3.5 more damage at -2 attack, not worth it. Feats are costly, and monkey grip is one of the worst feats ever.
Yeah, monkey grip is almost always inferior to Power Attack, and can't be adjusted for the situation, and doesn't count as prereqs for other feats. It is indeed one of the worst feats ever, but it's very popular (especially with FF7 fan boys).
Gee, ShakaUVM, thanks for posting that.
What?
My main point was the use of action points in their arena, which nobody has been talking about. It opens up new options for people to consider. Since we can emulate extra turning to pick up an effective +4 to our save DC, we can shift our stats around to boost Str and Con since a 14 in Wis and Cha is now all we need.
What?
I meant you let the cat out of the bag. I wanted to use that cat. While it was still in the bag.
So how exactly do you cast Hold Person at lvl 1?
I think they were assuming that they would start at level 3. I was a little confused about that myself.
What's a good Cleric 1 save or die? Cause Fear? Moon Lust?
So how exactly do you cast Hold Person at lvl 1?
Yeah, I wasn't sure on what level the character was. Killing the uber, level three, whirling frenzy chick isn't as easy at level one. Not even close. Not with their books allowed.
i assumed that you would not face the champ until you had won some battles / level twice.
not that it cant be done at level one...
EDIT:
I took a minute to check into level one options.
a precocious bard can hold person at level one. you only get 2 rounds, but you should be ok. they are paralyzed and helpless.
a level 1 wiz/sorc has a few options that work. color pray, scare, sleep, grease.
a level 1 cleric has limited options. it looks like scare and ranged attacks are the only way to beat the lvl3 barb, that i see.
a level 1 cleric has limited options. it looks like scare and ranged attacks are the only way to beat the lvl3 barb, that i see.
Based on what other people were saying, it appeared to be a 3rd level build.
At 1st level, a cleric could pull out a one-round calm emotions if he wanted. While not an I-Win button, it breaks the barbarian's one rage per day and fatigues them when they don't roll a 20 on the will save.
the big question i have at the moment, is what does it take to claim a win in their arena. they have a penalty if you kill your opponent. i see lots of ways to kill and a few ways to make the barb helpless, but they almost all fail after a few rounds.
spells have durations, saves will be made, strength and skill checks will eventually succeed.
in round 1 i can prevent the barb from taking actions...
in round 2 i can prevent the barb from taking actions with out wasting more spells.
in round 3 i can put my butt on her face and do basically what ever i like..
somewhere around round 10, if i have not killed her, she will get free of my control and kill me, dead.
so, when do is the match over, round 1? 2? 3? or 10?
EDIT : that bold part makes sense dont it... oy..
i hope to have a build ready maybe tonight... to bad things dont start for another 10 days?
does everyone start at level 1? or do you keep your levels between cycles?
that is to say, is the level 3 going to be fighting lvl 1's.
how many rounds do most cycles go? how many fights should it take to win the whole cycle.
my train of thought is for xp. if its only a few fights, then the character will never level much beyond 3rd..
It's a ko-system, so with about 8 people you'll have three rounds for the whole cycle. In addition there's the option of challenging other fighters and exhibition matches against certain monsters.
New participants can sign up till June 3rd I think.
You may be able to reach lvl 3 in one circle, especialy if you beat higher level people/monster regularly. You get exp for losing, too. You will be at a disadvantage for your first cycle, but with the next the playing field should be much more equal for people starting now again.
that seems less than fair about the level 1s vs lvl 3s..if my understanding of the way the setup works, and things in general are correct then 4 fights vs lvl 3's should be 3600xp. can be third by the end of the round.
can still expect to be a level behind in the next cycle.. and on par after that. advancing from their should be slow.
just need to solve one issue with the character i want to do and ill be ready...
Mainly because I wanted to see what actually "needs" to be banned in practice before making that decision.
you can use my character as a template then, for what should be banned
the only thing holding me up is figuring the value of 1 point of save DC and a feat.
i was really wanting to use magewright, but i dont think i can make that work. i might have to settle for adept.
as an adept i only have one problem to overcome..
so my list is narrowed down to adept, wiz, or bard.
the bard is the easiest. the wiz is the most powerfull, the adept is the funnest..
EDIT: still concedering a halfling warlock also, but i may have a hard time not killing with that one..
i prefer to pull my punches..for the record, im not targeting one character (you) in particular...
im cover all the bases... i hope...
i might not even make it in before the deadline now..
EDIT: i just submitted my entry...
some good stuff in the competition... if i win it will be due to rolls.. i fully expect ErhnamDJ to win if i dont.