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CO without errata

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
amphoteric
Jan 30, 2008 15:39:05 Hello all. I am charged with making a Cleric. I have not done so since 2nd edition so I am looking for a little help. The resources available to me are any 3.5 books however, no errata applies. The DM has announced that whatever is stated in the books are final. My team is comprised of a neutral ranger and a neutral wizard. My last character (an evil assassin who set us down a path of "evilness") has died. Since the team is currently engaged in a task that would be considered evil, I am reluctant to make a good cleric. I know I will be a melee character, since both others are ranged, and I know I am going with DDM: persist. Since we are not using errata, I can take this feat, along with extra turning, 1st lvl. Here is my plan:

level 1-10 (we start at lvl 6)
Class: cleric
Domains: War, Undeath (+4 turning)
Race: human
feats:
1-DDM: Persist
1-Extra turning
3-Power Attack
6-Sacred healing
9-Extra Turning
Charisma by lvl 8-18
Equipment: Sacred holy relic +3 turn, nightstick +4 turn
Turn attempts 4+4+4+4+3+4 = 23

Thats as far as I have gotten. I am trying to decide about a prestige classes. Also, what spells should I make persistant? What equipment is essential to being a front line fighter? What is my best choice for a weapon? What is my best choice for alignment? Any help is appreciated, and please be reference the book the different options are found in. Thank you.
#2
prime361
Jan 30, 2008 15:56:45 Divine power + Divine Might = Fighter as a Cleric
#3
jameswilliamogle
Jan 30, 2008 16:03:46 Divine Power, Righteous Might.

If you are starting at low level, persitant Bless / Prayer are ok.
#4
jaronk
Jan 30, 2008 16:13:54 Buy a candle of invocation (DMG) and summon an effreti. Wish for more candles. Profit!

Or more seriously, just don't worry about it. You're absolutely going to rock the frontline fighter role.

JaronK
#5
lost_scholar
Jan 30, 2008 16:20:47 Does your DM allow nightsticks to stack, because it doesn't seem like you are working in multiples in your turning calculations. Also, if you want an interesting weapon, consider the Scorpion tail whip 1d43 damage(sandstorm, exotic). Might also check out ordained champion from CC for a prestige class, or possibly bone knight (five nations), since it would not require you to be evil.
#6
piggyk
Jan 30, 2008 16:31:57 At level 6, I would start by persisting Divine Favor, although as was mentioned, Prayer can be fun. Other fun spells to persist at lower levels are Ring of Blades (CArc) and Blindsight (PGF, I think?). If you go with a persistent Blindsight, make sure you take advantage of that with liberal usage of Meld Into Stone, Deeper Darkness, etc.

As for what weapons, I don't know of any deities that have both the War and Undeath domains. It has always been my understanding that a cleric who takes the War domain and doesn't have a deity has to choose a weapon based on alignment, so that depends. The lawful longsword, chaotic battleaxe, neutral heavy mace? No biggie, as long as you can use it in two hands for Power Attack.
#7
forthecause
Jan 30, 2008 17:24:16 without errata divine metamagic doesn't require you to choose a meteamagic feat you have. just take DMM for persistent spell and take extra turning ALOT and go to town.
#8
ikeren
Jan 30, 2008 18:44:21 2nd level: Interfaith Blessing, Cloud of Knives, Elation, you can even go Balor Nimbus/Body Blades and grapple

1st level: Ice Gauntlet, Nightshield, Divine Favour, Bless,

Starting at 6th level, though, all 3 of your persists should be burning your 3 3rd level slots: Subtitute Domain from CC to get Purification instead of War, Persist Recitation, drop the substitute domain, persist Channelled Divine Shield, and Persist (Ice Axe or Mass Lesser Vigor)

You're getting: +3 AC, Saves, Attack, Damage to the entire party, DR 10/Evil, and either fast healing 1 for 3 people, or Touch attacks that deal 2d12+3 damage and aren't subject to DR.

You could incorporate flaws (Unearthed Arcana) and Selling Your Soul to a Devil (Fiendish Codex 2) for 4 more feats = 16 more turn attempts.
#9
NiteCyper
Jan 30, 2008 18:50:16 Remember, if you being a Cleric is due to you being forced to be the healer, check my sig for 'Why you don't need a Cleric to heal.' Otherwise, I second the Ordained Champion thang because people find it nice.
#10
amphoteric
Jan 31, 2008 7:04:40
Remember, if you being a Cleric is due to you being forced to be the healer, check my sig for 'Why you don't need a Cleric to heal.' Otherwise, I second the Ordained Champion thang because people find it nice.

I am starting at lvl 6. Since I don't get divine favor until lvl 7, would it be wise the level cleric at 7 and then Ordained Champion at 8? Also, I read somewhere that clerics should use wooden weapons because of spells called brambles and spikes. I have looked everywhere and I cannot find these spells. Also, I haven't decided if I am going to heal/turn or inflict/rebuke. What would seem a better choice?

2nd level: Interfaith Blessing, Cloud of Knives, Elation, you can even go Balor Nimbus/Body Blades and grapple

1st level: Ice Gauntlet, Nightshield, Divine Favour, Bless,

Starting at 6th level, though, all 3 of your persists should be burning your 3 3rd level slots: Subtitute Domain from CC to get Purification instead of War, Persist Recitation, drop the substitute domain, persist Channelled Divine Shield, and Persist (Ice Axe or Mass Lesser Vigor)

What resource(s) are these spells and abilities coming from?
#11
tshern
Jan 31, 2008 8:02:47 Bless and Divine favor are from PHB.
Recitation, Ice axe, Mass lesser vigor, Balor nimbus, Body blades are from Spell Compendium.
Channeled Divine Shield is from PHB II.
Elation is from Book of Exalted Deeds.

Not sure about the rest.
#12
amphoteric
Jan 31, 2008 8:09:33
Bless and Divine favor are from PHB.
Recitation, Ice axe, Mass lesser vigor, Balor nimbus, Body blades are from Spell Compendium.
Channeled Divine Shield is from PHB II.
Elation is from Book of Exalted Deeds.

Not sure about the rest.

Wow thanks. Anyone know about brambles and spikes?
#13
tshern
Jan 31, 2008 8:12:13 Spell Compendium too. I think Brambles is in Complete Divine as well.
#14
jameswilliamogle
Jan 31, 2008 8:12:58
Wow thanks. Anyone know about brambles and spikes?

Yep; Complete Divine or Spell Compendium.
#15
nebo
Jan 31, 2008 8:40:07 You have DMM persist, but no extend spell or persist spell. Those are kind of important.
#16
amphoteric
Jan 31, 2008 8:41:09
You have DMM persist, but no extend spell or persist spell. Those are kind of important.

Why do I need those?

Also, what can I do at lvl 6-10 to help prevent my buffs from being dispelled?
#17
larry_the_titan
Jan 31, 2008 9:24:40
Why do I need those?

Also, what can I do at lvl 6-10 to help prevent my buffs from being dispelled?

Maybe Counter Spells. I can't remember what all you can use but Dispel Magic should be able to counter Dispel magic.
#18
tshern
Jan 31, 2008 9:42:24
You have DMM persist, but no extend spell or persist spell. Those are kind of important.

His group's not using the errata.
#19
mr._dog
Jan 31, 2008 11:55:05 A bead of Karma and/or a spell to boost caster level will keep you ahead of the dispelling game.

Also there's the Ankh of Ascension or Divine Spell Power.

Ring of Spellbattle or Ring of Counterspells can help too.
#20
ikeren
Jan 31, 2008 13:22:58 Ask for a Divine Ring of Enduring Arcana.

I recently typed up a 15ish page document with all the persistable (non-domain) cleric spells, including full spell details. Great personal reference, but I can never post it. Maybe 3.5E will go OGL when 4.E comes out?

I also think I am probably the only person who recommends against ordained champion. You have to either take War domain or blow a feat on weapon focus, and I'm still less then convinced that the smite and fighter bonus feats, and channel spell are worth the CL loss and the crummy spontaneous casting. I'm now playing an Ordained Champion, and 2 DMM clerics, so I'll do some comparison.
#21
amphoteric
Jan 31, 2008 14:56:24
Ask for a Divine Ring of Enduring Arcana.

I recently typed up a 15ish page document with all the persistable (non-domain) cleric spells, including full spell details. Great personal reference, but I can never post it. Maybe 3.5E will go OGL when 4.E comes out?

I also think I am probably the only person who recommends against ordained champion. You have to either take War domain or blow a feat on weapon focus, and I'm still less then convinced that the smite and fighter bonus feats, and channel spell are worth the CL loss and the crummy spontaneous casting. I'm now playing an Ordained Champion, and 2 DMM clerics, so I'll do some comparison.

What prestige would you recommend then? The way I see it, as long as I am getting full caster progression, there is no reason not to prestige. I just don't know which classes mesh well.
#22
jetstrike3000
Apr 01, 2008 8:35:58 Go Ur Priest forget about cleric lol.
#23
ChristopherGroves
Apr 01, 2008 8:39:47 Someone in your group should totally play a weretouched master.
#24
skydragonknight
Apr 01, 2008 8:55:47 Complete Divine spells. Since you're not using errata, why bother using Spell Compendium?

Quillblast is the Druid one and Slime Wave is the Cleric one.

Since you specified Cleric: Slime Wave.
The bigger they are, the harder they fall. :D
#25
ChristopherGroves
Apr 01, 2008 8:57:54 I think maybe I'd be inclined to look at Ur Priest as well.

Can you pick and choose your book? Ie, if its a spell in Spell Compendium and Complete Divine, can you use the Complete Divine version?
#26
davethemagicweasel
Apr 01, 2008 9:11:16 Ring of Counterspells is only 4000gp and is good for Persistent buffers (stick a Dispel Magic in there).

For PrCs, if Ordained Champion is losing too many Caster Levels for your tastes then look into Knight of the Raven (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft), Fist of Raziel (Book of Exalted Deeds), 3 levels of Prestige Paladin (Unearthed Arcana/SRD).

Outside of Ordained Champion it's hard to find neutral/evil Cleric PrCs unfortunately.

Cleric 7 / PrC Paladin 3 / Fist of Raziel 10 is a staple build. Gets you BAB +18, Casting as an 18th level Cleric, access to Paladin spells (there's some good ones worth Persisting), good Smite ability, Divine Grace, and various other bits and pieces. Swapping Fist of Raziel for Knight of the Raven saves you a feat, gets you the useful Raven Harrier, and a less useful smite (less powerful, and just Smite Undead, but still useful). A good trick then is to dip a single level of Radiant Servant of Pelor after getting the bonus Sun domain to get more Greater Turning attempts for even more Persistent Spells.

Even better is Cleric 4 / Church Inquisitor 3. That gets you immunity to charms and then you can trade the Inquisition domain for Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion).
#27
phaedrusxy
Apr 01, 2008 9:26:54 DMM: Persist Consumptive Field (Libris Mortis), then drop a sack of rats into a bucket of water.

Also, the versions of Summon Undead from that book are very breakable.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 amphoteric Jan 30, 2008 15:39:05	Hello all. I am charged with making a Cleric. I have not done so since 2nd edition so I am looking for a little help. The resources available to me are any 3.5 books however, no errata applies. The DM has announced that whatever is stated in the books are final. My team is comprised of a neutral ranger and a neutral wizard. My last character (an evil assassin who set us down a path of "evilness") has died. Since the team is currently engaged in a task that would be considered evil, I am reluctant to make a good cleric. I know I will be a melee character, since both others are ranged, and I know I am going with DDM: persist. Since we are not using errata, I can take this feat, along with extra turning, 1st lvl. Here is my plan: level 1-10 (we start at lvl 6) Class: cleric Domains: War, Undeath (+4 turning) Race: human feats: 1-DDM: Persist 1-Extra turning 3-Power Attack 6-Sacred healing 9-Extra Turning Charisma by lvl 8-18 Equipment: Sacred holy relic +3 turn, nightstick +4 turn Turn attempts 4+4+4+4+3+4 = 23 Thats as far as I have gotten. I am trying to decide about a prestige classes. Also, what spells should I make persistant? What equipment is essential to being a front line fighter? What is my best choice for a weapon? What is my best choice for alignment? Any help is appreciated, and please be reference the book the different options are found in. Thank you.
#2 prime361 Jan 30, 2008 15:56:45	Divine power + Divine Might = Fighter as a Cleric
#3 jameswilliamogle Jan 30, 2008 16:03:46	Divine Power, Righteous Might. If you are starting at low level, persitant Bless / Prayer are ok.
#4 jaronk Jan 30, 2008 16:13:54	Buy a candle of invocation (DMG) and summon an effreti. Wish for more candles. Profit! Or more seriously, just don't worry about it. You're absolutely going to rock the frontline fighter role. JaronK
#5 lost_scholar Jan 30, 2008 16:20:47	Does your DM allow nightsticks to stack, because it doesn't seem like you are working in multiples in your turning calculations. Also, if you want an interesting weapon, consider the Scorpion tail whip 1d43 damage(sandstorm, exotic). Might also check out ordained champion from CC for a prestige class, or possibly bone knight (five nations), since it would not require you to be evil.
#6 piggyk Jan 30, 2008 16:31:57	At level 6, I would start by persisting Divine Favor, although as was mentioned, Prayer can be fun. Other fun spells to persist at lower levels are Ring of Blades (CArc) and Blindsight (PGF, I think?). If you go with a persistent Blindsight, make sure you take advantage of that with liberal usage of Meld Into Stone, Deeper Darkness, etc. As for what weapons, I don't know of any deities that have both the War and Undeath domains. It has always been my understanding that a cleric who takes the War domain and doesn't have a deity has to choose a weapon based on alignment, so that depends. The lawful longsword, chaotic battleaxe, neutral heavy mace? No biggie, as long as you can use it in two hands for Power Attack.
#7 forthecause Jan 30, 2008 17:24:16	without errata divine metamagic doesn't require you to choose a meteamagic feat you have. just take DMM for persistent spell and take extra turning ALOT and go to town.
#8 ikeren Jan 30, 2008 18:44:21	2nd level: Interfaith Blessing, Cloud of Knives, Elation, you can even go Balor Nimbus/Body Blades and grapple 1st level: Ice Gauntlet, Nightshield, Divine Favour, Bless, Starting at 6th level, though, all 3 of your persists should be burning your 3 3rd level slots: Subtitute Domain from CC to get Purification instead of War, Persist Recitation, drop the substitute domain, persist Channelled Divine Shield, and Persist (Ice Axe or Mass Lesser Vigor) You're getting: +3 AC, Saves, Attack, Damage to the entire party, DR 10/Evil, and either fast healing 1 for 3 people, or Touch attacks that deal 2d12+3 damage and aren't subject to DR. You could incorporate flaws (Unearthed Arcana) and Selling Your Soul to a Devil (Fiendish Codex 2) for 4 more feats = 16 more turn attempts.
#9 NiteCyper Jan 30, 2008 18:50:16	Remember, if you being a Cleric is due to you being forced to be the healer, check my sig for 'Why you don't need a Cleric to heal.' Otherwise, I second the Ordained Champion thang because people find it nice.
#10 amphoteric Jan 31, 2008 7:04:40	Remember, if you being a Cleric is due to you being forced to be the healer, check my sig for 'Why you don't need a Cleric to heal.' Otherwise, I second the Ordained Champion thang because people find it nice. I am starting at lvl 6. Since I don't get divine favor until lvl 7, would it be wise the level cleric at 7 and then Ordained Champion at 8? Also, I read somewhere that clerics should use wooden weapons because of spells called brambles and spikes. I have looked everywhere and I cannot find these spells. Also, I haven't decided if I am going to heal/turn or inflict/rebuke. What would seem a better choice? 2nd level: Interfaith Blessing, Cloud of Knives, Elation, you can even go Balor Nimbus/Body Blades and grapple 1st level: Ice Gauntlet, Nightshield, Divine Favour, Bless, Starting at 6th level, though, all 3 of your persists should be burning your 3 3rd level slots: Subtitute Domain from CC to get Purification instead of War, Persist Recitation, drop the substitute domain, persist Channelled Divine Shield, and Persist (Ice Axe or Mass Lesser Vigor) What resource(s) are these spells and abilities coming from?
#11 tshern Jan 31, 2008 8:02:47	Bless and Divine favor are from PHB. Recitation, Ice axe, Mass lesser vigor, Balor nimbus, Body blades are from Spell Compendium. Channeled Divine Shield is from PHB II. Elation is from Book of Exalted Deeds. Not sure about the rest.
#12 amphoteric Jan 31, 2008 8:09:33	Bless and Divine favor are from PHB. Recitation, Ice axe, Mass lesser vigor, Balor nimbus, Body blades are from Spell Compendium. Channeled Divine Shield is from PHB II. Elation is from Book of Exalted Deeds. Not sure about the rest. Wow thanks. Anyone know about brambles and spikes?
#13 tshern Jan 31, 2008 8:12:13	Spell Compendium too. I think Brambles is in Complete Divine as well.
#14 jameswilliamogle Jan 31, 2008 8:12:58	Wow thanks. Anyone know about brambles and spikes? Yep; Complete Divine or Spell Compendium.
#15 nebo Jan 31, 2008 8:40:07	You have DMM persist, but no extend spell or persist spell. Those are kind of important.
#16 amphoteric Jan 31, 2008 8:41:09	You have DMM persist, but no extend spell or persist spell. Those are kind of important. Why do I need those? Also, what can I do at lvl 6-10 to help prevent my buffs from being dispelled?
#17 larry_the_titan Jan 31, 2008 9:24:40	Why do I need those? Also, what can I do at lvl 6-10 to help prevent my buffs from being dispelled? Maybe Counter Spells. I can't remember what all you can use but Dispel Magic should be able to counter Dispel magic.
#18 tshern Jan 31, 2008 9:42:24	You have DMM persist, but no extend spell or persist spell. Those are kind of important. His group's not using the errata.
#19 mr._dog Jan 31, 2008 11:55:05	A bead of Karma and/or a spell to boost caster level will keep you ahead of the dispelling game. Also there's the Ankh of Ascension or Divine Spell Power. Ring of Spellbattle or Ring of Counterspells can help too.
#20 ikeren Jan 31, 2008 13:22:58	Ask for a Divine Ring of Enduring Arcana. I recently typed up a 15ish page document with all the persistable (non-domain) cleric spells, including full spell details. Great personal reference, but I can never post it. Maybe 3.5E will go OGL when 4.E comes out? I also think I am probably the only person who recommends against ordained champion. You have to either take War domain or blow a feat on weapon focus, and I'm still less then convinced that the smite and fighter bonus feats, and channel spell are worth the CL loss and the crummy spontaneous casting. I'm now playing an Ordained Champion, and 2 DMM clerics, so I'll do some comparison.
#21 amphoteric Jan 31, 2008 14:56:24	Ask for a Divine Ring of Enduring Arcana. I recently typed up a 15ish page document with all the persistable (non-domain) cleric spells, including full spell details. Great personal reference, but I can never post it. Maybe 3.5E will go OGL when 4.E comes out? I also think I am probably the only person who recommends against ordained champion. You have to either take War domain or blow a feat on weapon focus, and I'm still less then convinced that the smite and fighter bonus feats, and channel spell are worth the CL loss and the crummy spontaneous casting. I'm now playing an Ordained Champion, and 2 DMM clerics, so I'll do some comparison. What prestige would you recommend then? The way I see it, as long as I am getting full caster progression, there is no reason not to prestige. I just don't know which classes mesh well.
#22 jetstrike3000 Apr 01, 2008 8:35:58	Go Ur Priest forget about cleric lol.
#23 ChristopherGroves Apr 01, 2008 8:39:47	Someone in your group should totally play a weretouched master.
#24 skydragonknight Apr 01, 2008 8:55:47	Complete Divine spells. Since you're not using errata, why bother using Spell Compendium? Quillblast is the Druid one and Slime Wave is the Cleric one. Since you specified Cleric: Slime Wave. The bigger they are, the harder they fall. :D
#25 ChristopherGroves Apr 01, 2008 8:57:54	I think maybe I'd be inclined to look at Ur Priest as well. Can you pick and choose your book? Ie, if its a spell in Spell Compendium and Complete Divine, can you use the Complete Divine version?
#26 davethemagicweasel Apr 01, 2008 9:11:16	Ring of Counterspells is only 4000gp and is good for Persistent buffers (stick a Dispel Magic in there). For PrCs, if Ordained Champion is losing too many Caster Levels for your tastes then look into Knight of the Raven (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft), Fist of Raziel (Book of Exalted Deeds), 3 levels of Prestige Paladin (Unearthed Arcana/SRD). Outside of Ordained Champion it's hard to find neutral/evil Cleric PrCs unfortunately. Cleric 7 / PrC Paladin 3 / Fist of Raziel 10 is a staple build. Gets you BAB +18, Casting as an 18th level Cleric, access to Paladin spells (there's some good ones worth Persisting), good Smite ability, Divine Grace, and various other bits and pieces. Swapping Fist of Raziel for Knight of the Raven saves you a feat, gets you the useful Raven Harrier, and a less useful smite (less powerful, and just Smite Undead, but still useful). A good trick then is to dip a single level of Radiant Servant of Pelor after getting the bonus Sun domain to get more Greater Turning attempts for even more Persistent Spells. Even better is Cleric 4 / Church Inquisitor 3. That gets you immunity to charms and then you can trade the Inquisition domain for Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion).
#27 phaedrusxy Apr 01, 2008 9:26:54	DMM: Persist Consumptive Field (Libris Mortis), then drop a sack of rats into a bucket of water. Also, the versions of Summon Undead from that book are very breakable.