Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 naanomi Mar 24, 2008 17:10:17	I was wondering about the Colossal+ size category... in the SRD (and anywhere else official looking I have read), only two Epic Dragons ever get there, and it doesn't seem to work like a normal size category... For example... It DOES increase the flight speed of the dragons, but DOES NOT increase their grapple check... I have a few questions to people better able to pick apart the monster entries... 1) What exactly is the functional difference between Colossal and Colossal+? Hide checks? Reach? Grapple checks? Weapon size usage? 2) Is Colossal+ the 'official' size progression from Colossal, or just a special trait of these dragons (for example, is a Goliath with 'giant size' cast on him a Colossal creature that acts as a Colossal+ creature when it benefits him?) And two other questions related to being or acting as if you are very very big... 3) Can one assume, that if you get enough size stacking powers, that the 'effects' of being big continue to stack (into Colossal+ or some equivalent, or even into theoretical 'Colossal+++++' type realms?) 4) Do weapons go beyond 'Colossal' in size? A goliath with a full blade and giant size cast on him is wielding a...? size weapon? 5) Even if the weapon 'size' doesn't physically change, can 'effective size of weapon' be pushed past Colossal (I see this done sometimes on these boards with Monk builds and getting fists that count as really really big...) Thanks for any answers! If there aren't official answers, thoughts/speculation would help too...
#2 jetstrike3000 Mar 24, 2008 18:48:45	I would really like to hear some results on this because it could be quite relevant for size increases for many builds. especially monks.
#3 atomickitkat Mar 24, 2008 21:22:47	As I recall, any of the metallic/chromatic Dragons reach it around 50 HD(more if they are the "lesser" varieties like White/Bronze). The reason it doesn't really help Grapple checks is because above a certain point, the size difference is no longer really relevant(except when you're facing Gargantuan maybe); you're not getting out no matter what.
#4 neraagile Mar 24, 2008 21:31:11	1) What exactly is the functional difference between Colossal and Colossal+? Hide checks? Reach? Grapple checks? Weapon size usage? 2) Is Colossal+ the 'official' size progression from Colossal, or just a special trait of these dragons (for example, is a Goliath with 'giant size' cast on him a Colossal creature that acts as a Colossal+ creature when it benefits him?) And two other questions related to being or acting as if you are very very big... 3) Can one assume, that if you get enough size stacking powers, that the 'effects' of being big continue to stack (into Colossal+ or some equivalent, or even into theoretical 'Colossal+++++' type realms?) 4) Do weapons go beyond 'Colossal' in size? A goliath with a full blade and giant size cast on him is wielding a...? size weapon? 5) Even if the weapon 'size' doesn't physically change, can 'effective size of weapon' be pushed past Colossal (I see this done sometimes on these boards with Monk builds and getting fists that count as really really big...) Thanks for any answers! If there aren't official answers, thoughts/speculation would help too... 1) The Colossal+ (and all its follow ups) size is strictly in terms of dragons, it is not an actual size category, it is a way in which to give dragons more power as their HD as well as benefits like reach etc. with dragons, their Natural armor/SR/CL/Breath Weapon etc. is governed by size categories, instead of altering these rulings, WotC made the Virtual Size categories for dragons, to continue the pattern. 2) As said before, its not an actual size category, so no items nor other beings other than dragons can attain this Virtual Size Category. The reason it doesn't really help Grapple checks is because above a certain point, the size difference is no longer really relevant(except when you're facing Gargantuan maybe); you're not getting out no matter what. 1) The Grapple bonus is not included because its not a real size category and as such doesn't follow all the normal rulings for size categories. The grapple bonus would still be relevant, if it was a real size category: a character Shapechanging into a Dragon of X HD would still have a chance of escaping/counter-grappling a dragon of the virtual size categories. 2) But you are to some extend right, but I think that grapple bonuses aren't included because the space of the dragon does not increase, that and grappling a Colossal ++++ dragon would just be absurd.
#5 naanomi Mar 25, 2008 11:17:48	because the space of the dragon does not increase Hrm... then how does it's reach increase? Arms, legs, and necks on dragons continue to grow as they age when the body stops? Colossal++++++++++ dragons are super spindly? Obviously not but still points out some of the strangeness here...
#6 naanomi Mar 25, 2008 16:26:50	In case anyone is interested (and I know most people aren't, given the level of credibility customer service has around here)... here are the 'official' answers from Customer service, obtained after two or three exchanges with them and paraphrased... 1) What exactly is the functional difference between Colossal and Colossal+? Hide checks? Reach? Grapple checks? Weapon size usage? --There is no such thing as Colossal+ in 3.5 system, it is a hold over from 3.0 where it had shaky status to begin with. It only modified Damage, Breath Weapon, and Reach and does not represent a physical change in size. 2) Is Colossal+ the 'official' size progression from Colossal, or just a special trait of these dragons (for example, is a Goliath with 'giant size' cast on him a Colossal creature that acts as a Colossal+ creature when it benefits him?) --There is no such thing as anything larger than Colossal. A giant size'd Goliath can still only use Colossal sized weapons. A colossal creature with Monkey Grip has wasted a feat (even more than normal!) 3) Can one assume, that if you get enough size stacking powers, that the 'effects' of being big continue to stack (into Colossal+ or some equivalent, or even into theoretical 'Colossal+++++' type realms?) --Nope! Colossal is as big as you get, regardless of how big your physical size gets... no damage changes, no reach changes, no nothing. This includes 'virtual size increases' like Powerful Build. 4) Do weapons go beyond 'Colossal' in size? A goliath with a full blade and giant size cast on him is wielding a...? size weapon? --He wields a colossal size weapon, but there are no weapons 'scaled' for him, Powerful build has no effect, not even in the sense of letting him hold 'in one hand' what should take him two hands to use. 5) Even if the weapon 'size' doesn't physically change, can 'effective size of weapon' be pushed past Colossal (I see this done sometimes on these boards with Monk builds and getting fists that count as really really big...) --Virtual weapon size is capped at colossal as well, so a monk can only get into the colossal size category for his/her unarmed attacks and no more. This does mean that 'Improved Natural Attack' is worthless for colossal size creatures. Thoughts/opinions? Anything contradictory to RAW here? Any listed colossal creatures with improved natural attack feat clearly pushing up attack damage 'past' colossal?
#7 atomickitkat Mar 25, 2008 20:05:38	Virtual size increases("as a creature one size larger") function for weapon damage. INA works just fine for a colossal creature. Initiate of Draconic Mysteries doesn't really increase in virtual size, just the size of each die(d4 to d6, d6 to d8, d12 to d20).
#8 naanomi Mar 26, 2008 11:21:45	Virtual size increases("as a creature one size larger") function for weapon damage. INA works just fine for a colossal creature. Initiate of Draconic Mysteries doesn't really increase in virtual size, just the size of each die(d4 to d6, d6 to d8, d12 to d20). The argument is that there is no 'one size larger' than colossal... And are there any book examples of a colossal creature with INA? I'm AFB for the week so can't check...
#9 atomickitkat Mar 26, 2008 12:18:52	The rules for weapon damage simply state that you increase each die accordingly(eg, each d6 becomes a d8, etc.). I see no reason for it not to work when giving a Colossal creature Improved Natural Attack. More specifically, the text: Choose one of the creature’s natural attack forms. The damage for this natural weapon increases by one step, as if the creature’s size had increased by one category . Since it mentions "the damage for this natural weapon increases by one step", your weapon damage goes up, regardless of your size.
#10 naanomi Mar 26, 2008 13:47:17	It goes up "as if the creature’s size had increased by one category", which a Colossal creature cannot do. Like an incorporeal creature who's "carry weight is doubled" or some such... not applicable to the creature in question. In any case, I'm inclined to agree that in practicality (if not RAW) size categories should logically continue "upwards", at the very least virtually... and probably "downwards" below Fine as well (though in that direction it doesn't matter much... few amoeba try to grapple ants), I was just looking for 'confirmation' in a book to disagree with Customer Service's answer of "nope, no progression virtual or otherwise past colossal".
#11 neraagile Mar 27, 2008 1:18:40	With weapon damage, you wouldn't be able to make anything the size of colossal+ etc. However if you're a Colossal creature and get improved natural attack you still increase the dice, why? Because it uses the phrase "as if" it does not actually increase a size category, it is merely a reference point. However if you use a Colossal weapon and cast Mighty Wallop, nothing happens, because of the wording... Mighty Wallop increases the damage of a bludgeoning weapon by one size category without increasing the dimensions or weight of the weapon. It's a fine line, but that's the difference, personally I hate the D&D department for their wishy washy wording and inconsistencies....