Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 umcorian Jun 29, 2009 13:35:48	I had this odd idea for a character - a Paladin/Sorcerer/Master of the Unseen Hand who primarily uses his telekinesis to move a character in such ways as to provoke AoOs from both himself and his allies. By using Combat Reflexes, I could technically provoke 6-7 AoOs from myself alone, if my Dex were high enough. I ran it by the DM as well as another player, and there seems to be a disagreement on whether or not it's viable. The DM says since you can take more than one AoO on an enemy, it's indeed a viable strat - ala Spiked Chain builds. The other player says that a single move action cannot provoke multiple AoOs, even if they move in and out of numerous squares. I'm inclined to agree with the other player, even if the other NPC isn't technically "moving" as it's obviously intended in that AoO rule (more like being thrust head over heels against his will with no ability to control his motion or direction, let alone defend himself.) Even with that, I can already think of a few work-arounds that can sorta make this a grey area. For example, if I used the other NPC to initiate a Bull Rush against myself as per the telekinetic power, or bounced him off the ground, making him rise from prone... or making him reach to his belt to retrieve a stored item... each provoking different opportunities... or just simply moving him in and out of my square like initiating grapples, or having him "body slam" me (unarmed strike), as a full attack - something MOTUS allows you to do. I'm not trying to justify anything *brutally* cheap - just this idea sounds really really fun, and I'm curious if it could work as stated, or with a combination of other abilities/feats if I've made a mistake.
#2 pithica Jun 29, 2009 15:16:00	The other player says that a single move action cannot provoke multiple AoOs, even if they move in and out of numerous squares. This isn't true, at least by my reading... http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOpportunity.htm#moving Moving Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes an attack of opportunity from the threatening opponent. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action. You provoke an AOO every time you move out of a threatened square versus every opponent that threatens that square. It is not, 'once per move'. I could go either way on whether or not the tactic works. I was going to say no, since you aren't doing the moving yourself and therefor the above doesn't apply, but then I remembered Bull Rush, and how that provokes AOO's when you get moved. Now that I think about it more, the TK spell mimics Bull Rushes (I think it requires you to make the roll as if you were bull rushing), so it should provoke AOO's the same as that would. So, from where I'm sitting, the tactic does work. EDIT: I double checked, and opponents moved by Bull Rush's do provoke AOO's as they are moved, and the TK spell explicitly mimic's bull rush, so yes, I think the tactic works. I will caveat that, though, with this: Resolve these attempts as normal, except that they don’t provoke attacks of opportunity, I am positive the above is supposed to mean that you don't provoke an AOO when you use it against someone the way you would if you were physically there, but I have no doubt that someone could read that as if none of the movements/maneuvers/et al involved in the TK provoke. I don't think they'd be right in that reading but it's one literal interpretation of that line.
#3 Senevri Jun 29, 2009 15:35:30	An opponent moving within another's threatened area provokes a single AoO. If they exit this threatened area and re-enter, and keep on moving further, they provoke another AoO. Might have been explained in an article titled "All about attacks of opportunity."
#4 pithica Jun 29, 2009 16:56:24	I just read both articles (well, skimmed through them) and didn't see anything making that indication. In fact, it seems to support what I was saying... Even if you're allowed several attacks of opportunity each turn, you make a single melee attack against a foe that provokes an attack of opportunity from you. Should that same foe, however, do something else later during his turn that provokes an attack of opportunity from you, you can make another attack of opportunity if you are able. According to Table 8-2, both these actions provoke attacks of opportunity; however, the basic rule for movement and attacks of opportunity still applies. When you move from one square to another in combat, you provoke an attack of opportunity when you leave a threatened square -- not when you enter a threatened square. If the square is threatened, and you leave it, you provoke, regardless of how many squares you move through before or after and how many aoo's they provoked.
#5 risner Jun 29, 2009 18:18:52	telekinesis to move a character provoke 6-7 AoOs from myself alone Telekinesis is limited to 375 lbs at CL 15, that work for moving many small or medium but not "big" (football sized) Mediums or larger. PHB p138 details that you can move but only provoke one AoO per round on movement per opponent. So your DM is wrong and the player is right, you can never obtain more than 1 AoO based on movement per round per opponent. Now your DM is free to Rule 0 a house rule allowing you to get the 6-7 AoOs from yourself.
#6 pithica Jun 29, 2009 19:11:26	I think what you're quoting is... Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. Good catch. I apparently forgot to turn the page when I read that section. MOTUS does have the ability to do more than one thing per round with his TK, so he could still potentially generate several in the same round, though, not more than one from the same opponent for moving out of a threatened square.