Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 phoenix00 Mar 29, 2008 10:38:55	I was wrong, I missed a requirement for eternal blade, old illegal build below, see new and improved build with a far better human subrace below Skip to post 5 illegal build How Half Elves are Completely Awesome with the right amount of Bloodline Cheese and Tome of Battle and Tome of Magic. As your levels progress you get this 2 levels of Wizard Casting with Caster Level 8 at level 6 8th level Vestiges accessible level 10 14 initiator level for Swordsage at level 9 thus can pick any 7th level swordsage maneuvers and below 18 initiator level for Crusader at level 11 thus can pick any 9th level crusader maneuvers and below Levels 12 through 20 progress Eternal Blade, which advance both Swordsage and Crusader initiator levels (which are both 22 at the time thus they can choose any devoted spirit, diamond mind, iron heart, white raven). Uses the maneuvers known to progress swordsage mostly but add 3 more maneuvers known to Crusader. Use the maneuvers readied to progress Crusader, since each maneuver readied gives you an additional maneuver granted, thus reducing the randomness that is the crusader. Since Eternal Blade advances initiator level for all 9 disciplines, you can fill in the gap of any Desert Wind, Setting Sun, Stone Dragon, or Tiger Claw 9th level maneuvers you may want with the martial study feat. Since you have an initiator level of 22 at level 12, you can use your level 12, 15, 18 or feat granted to you by the spell Heroics to fill in the gaps for 9th level maneuvers. Choosing another backup stance or two is a big priority (preferably with your heroics feat so you can switch easily to suit the needs) since you only get 1 9th level and 2 1st level stances through levels. At level 20 15 BAB Fort of 10 (14 Good Fort (9), 3 Bad Fort (1)) Reflex of 8 (1 Good Reflex, (2.5), 16 Bad Reflex (5.66)) Will of 8 (6 Good Will (5), 11 Bad Will (3.66)) Effective Binding Level of 20 thus 4 vestiges, one of your vestiges has to be Tenebrous, you also can’t hide the signs of binding. 1 9th level Stance (choose but choose wisely). 1 level away from Epic progression of Eternal Blade 6 Maneuvers Known for a Swordsage, 4 Readied for Swordsage 5 Maneuvers Known for a Crusader +5 more Maneuvers Known for a Swordsage or Crusader from the devoted spirit, diamond mind, iron heart, white raven lists 8 Maneuvers Readied for a Crusader, 5 are Granted.+1 if you take the Extra Granted Maneuver feat Initiator Level of 30 for Crusader and Swordsage. Feats 1 Precocious Apprentice Level 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18 are all free Weapon Focus for Knight of the Sacred Seal and Eternal Blade is given by Swordsage You probably want to have one feat be extra granted maneuver, and another one be Adaptive Style ---------- I need help selecting what focus I should do, I need help with maneuver selection and vestige selection (I got 3 more vestiges to fill), plus feats. Recommendation on what variety of stances to use Heriocs for is also appreciated. Starting level 10 will go to 20, maybe early epic, any books, but trying to keep it simple .
#2 cyrocloud Mar 29, 2008 11:04:31	ummm...vestiges only go to level 8, but I digress the major issue with the build that you posted is that to qualify for eternal blade you need a BAB +10 which you don't get till level 15.
#3 phoenix00 Mar 29, 2008 11:28:09	damn, I knew I was forgetting something. Well the build is still salvagable but it loses the entire reason for the title. Race Illumian with Improved Sigil Krau Cloistered Cleric 1/ Binder 1/ Bloodline 3/ Anima Mage 1 (Divine Adaption)/ Tenebrous Apostate 1/ Scion of Dantalion 1/ Swordsage 1/ Knight of Sacred Seal 1/ Crusader 1/ Ruby Knight Vindicator 10 Sigh another RKV build (suddenly this thread feels so more generic). You get a spells known level of 1+1+7=9 levels of Cleric, with a caster level of 4+4+10=18 Lose 1 maneuver granted, same amount of maneuvers known, gain another stance. Can choose maneuvers from Devoted Spirit, Shadow Hand, Stone Dragon, and White Raven. Better class abilities, instead of good fort over 9 levels, you get good will. d8 instead of d10 over 10 levels. Sigh much better build, but more traditional, will edit the above post.
#4 aelryinth Mar 29, 2008 11:45:17	You're trying to make bloodline cheese apply to every single class the character has. No. It applies to one class, chosen when you take the class, and nothing else. People also like to make that mistake with Martial Adept classes. MA PrC's also have to be 'tagged' to a martial adept class...its where they get their default renewal mechanism from. It's no different then having to tag a spellcasting PrC to a base class...you don't get the benefit on everything, you get it on ONE class. Counting the same class more then once in any kind of count is broken even considering it...why would you think it was in the rules to actually work that way? ===Aelryinth
#5 phoenix00 Mar 29, 2008 11:56:15	and for aelryinth I am not going to get in this debate of RAW again,vs a misreading of RAW+RAI again. Bloodlines apply to all classes, it says so in the description of the bloodlines with the monk/sorcerer example. Additionally since the prestige classes have the soulbinding +1, or Manuevers/Stances class abilities of the prestige classes they also get advanced with bloodlines. The best arguements you can make against Bloodlines and ToM/ToB is RAI, it wasn't intended to work that way especially since those supplements came out after bloodlines. Regardless take your arguments elsewhere, they been debated to death, and I ain't going to have those arguments hijack my thread. If you want to argue them, start a new thread, or revive one of the old ones. --- Race Illumian As your levels progress you get this 2 levels of Cleric Casting with Caster Level 8 at level 6 8th level Vestiges accessible level 8, 4 vestiges total accessible level 10 (EBL of 20 at level 10) 14 initiator level for Swordsage at level 9 thus can pick any 7th level swordsage maneuvers and below 18 initiator level for Crusader at level 11 thus can pick any 9th level crusader maneuvers and below Levels 12 through 20 progress Ruby Knight Vindicator, which advance both Swordsage and Crusader initiator levels (which are both 22 at the time thus they can choose any devoted spirit, shadow hand, stone dragon, white raven) Since Ruby Knight Vindicator advances initiator level for all 9 disciplines, you can fill in the gap of any Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Iron Heart Setting Sun, or Tiger Claw 9th level maneuvers you may want with the martial study feat. Since you have an initiator level of 22 at level 12, you can use your level 12, 15, 18 or feat granted to you by the spell Heroics to fill in the gaps for 9th level maneuvers. Choosing another backup stance or two is a big priority (preferably with your heroics feat so you can switch easily to suit the needs) since you only get 2 9th level and 2 1st level stances through levels. At level 20 15 BAB Fort of 8 (6 Good Fort, 11 Bad Fort=5+3.66) Reflex of 8 (1 Good Reflex, 16 Bad Reflex =2.5+5.66) Will of 10 (15 Good Will, 2 Bad Will=9.5+2/3) Effective Binding Level of 20 thus 4 vestiges, one of your vestiges has to be Tenebrous, you also can’t hide the signs of binding. 1 9th level Stance (choose but choose wisely). 1 level away from Epic progression of Ruby Knight Vindicator 6 Maneuvers Known for a Swordsage, 4 Readied for Swordsage 5 Maneuvers Known for a Crusader +5 more Maneuvers Known for a Swordsage or Crusader from the devoted spirit, diamond mind, iron heart, white raven lists 7 Maneuvers Readied for a Crusader, 4 are Granted.+1 if you take the Extra Granted Maneuver feat 9 levels of Cleric Spellcasting thus 5th level spells, with a caster level of 18 Feats 1 Improved Sigil Krau 3 Any Metamagic Feat Level 6, 9, 12, 15, 18 are all free Weapon Focus for Knight of the Sacred Seal ade is given by Swordsage You probably want to have one feat be extra granted maneuver, and another one be Adaptive Style
#6 Dictum_Mortuum Mar 29, 2008 12:08:30	it's great, but what does it have to do with half-elves :S ? //edit: nevermind, just saw the change in the thread title.
#7 phoenix00 Mar 29, 2008 12:16:53	it's great, but what does it have to do with half-elves :S ? //edit: nevermind, just saw the change in the thread title. Problem is, Half Elves need to actually hit things, unlike Clerics of the Coast ;) (read the sblock for the old build, I forgot about the enteral blade bab requirement)
#8 eldritch_lord Mar 29, 2008 14:36:54	@Aelryinth: Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected. If a character has levels in two or more classes in addition to his bloodline levels, each class gains the benefit of adding the bloodline levels when calculating abilities. For example, a 2nd-level sorcerer with a major bloodline takes a bloodline level when earns enough XP to advance in level. He is treated as a 3rd-level spellcaster for the purpose of spell durations, caster level checks, and so forth. But he doesn't gain a 3rd-level sorcerer's spells per day or spells known. Similarly, the stunning attacks of a 3rd-level monk with one bloodline level have a save DC equal to 12 (10 + one-half class level) plus her Wisdom modifier, since the bloodline level is treated as if it were a monk class level when calculating the save DC. A 3rd-level monk/3rd-level sorcerer with two bloodline levels would be treated as a 5th-level spellcaster and a 5th-level monk for determining level-based abilities. If you have more than one martial maneuver progression, you must choose which progression the additional readied maneuver slot applies to. If you choose to add the maneuver readied to a martial maneuver progression derived from crusader class levels, you also gain one additional maneuver granted at the beginning of the encounter for each additional maneuver you can ready. You retain the same recovery method or methods you already use. If you have levels in more than one martial adept class, you choose which recovery method you will use based on which adept class the new maneuver you are learning applies to. vs. If you are a martial adept taking levels in another class...determine your initiator level by adding together your level in that class + 1/2 you levels in all other classes....Prestige classes work a little differently. In most cases, you add the full prestige class level to your martial adept level to determine your initiator level. See the prestige class descriptions in Chapter 5 for more details. You add your full [name] levels to your initiator level to determine your total initiator level and your highest-level maneuvers known. That is all.
#9 phoenix00 Mar 29, 2008 23:16:03	Bump, still want help with vestiges and maneuvers selection. Flavor wise a Tome of Battle/Binding mix works real great as a Vizard from bleach.
#10 eldritch_lord Mar 30, 2008 10:26:40	Bump, still want help with vestiges and maneuvers selection. You wanted maneuver and vestige help? Why didn't you say so! Let's see, looking through the list... * Effective Binding Level of 20 thus 4 vestiges, one of your vestiges has to be Tenebrous, you also can’t hide the signs of binding. So you can pick any 3 vestiges plus Tenebrous. Hmm...I think Malphas is the one that gives Sudden Strike, and Marchosias has Sneak Attack, so bind those two to get big boosts on damage, particularly with Tenebrous's darkness ability. Then perhaps Buer for fast healing and you'd be set for offense and defense. * 1 9th level Stance (choose but choose wisely). ...except the only 9th level maneuvers are strikes. ;) Fill that with Stance of Immortal Fortitude, for just not dying goodness. * 6 Maneuvers Known for a Swordsage, 4 Readied for Swordsage Well, damage is mostly covered for sneak-attack-able enemies, so you can focus less on damage boosters here than you would otherwise. Maneuvers 7th and below...I'd suggest: Leaping Flame, to get next to attackers without AoOs; Firesnake, for ranged ability; Salamander Charge, for charge+nice extras; Shadow Blink, for mobility; Step of the Dancing Moth, to avoid terrain issues; and Death from Above, to deal extra damage and make opponents flat-footed. * 5 Maneuvers Known for a Crusader Ancient Mountain Hammer, for ignoring DR and taking out SA-immune opponents; Mountain Tombstone Strike, because really, why not? Strike of Righteous Vitality, for good healing; Martial Spirit, for frequent healing; and White Raven Hammer, for a no-save stun. * +5 more Maneuvers Known for a Swordsage or Crusader from the devoted spirit, diamond mind, iron heart, white raven lists Since Crusader auto-refreshes, you'll want these to be Crusader maneuvers. Diamond Mind is good for maneuvers that you'll use a lot, namely: Mind Over Body, Action Before Thought, and Moment of Perfect Mind, for covering your saves since Bloodline levels lower them; Diamond Nightmare Blade, 'cause who doesn't like 4x damage? and Iron Heart Surge, for those pesky status effects. My maneuver choices for a martial adept/caster are usually more defensive, on the assumption that a full caster can take care of itself in the offense department, so if you prefer the other way around I can make suggestions for that as well. Hope that helps.