First of all note that your attributes govern most of your abilities, but the most important are attack rolls, damage, saving throws, hit points and spellcasting. Most of the times the key attributes of these abilities are fixed; there are however various feats and class features that tweak them, letting you change the base attribute for a certain save or skill (e.g. insightful reflexes from complete adventurer makes you able to swap your dexterity with your intelligence modifier to determine your reflex saves). The best resource for this kind of abilities is the great LordKiwi's thread, x stat to y bonus.
Another important topic is the selection of your class. Surely you can't expect to play a character who suffers from MAD, like a paladin or a dual caster and be good at it. Classes that depend on one or two attributes to fill their role, like druid, cleric, wizard, beguiler, etc are probably your best bets. What really helps even further is when an important attribute of your class is also the base of a saving throw (like constitution and wisdom).
Class features is probably your best bet improving your attributes. That is because classes offers various ways of improving or changing your scores (wild shape, polymorph, metamorphosis, etc), especially your physical statistics. A great ally to low scores are alternative class features, replacing the abilities you don't need because you lack the attribute required (such as turn undead and really low charisma) or replacing abilities to reduce MAD.
Last but not least, the selection of race must be addressed. There are races that bypass some of the negative effects of bad attributes, such as undead characters and constitution, or incorporeal races and strength. Moreover an important mechanic to boost weak ability scores is the aging effects and there are ways to bypass them with spells and other abilities. Templates is probably the easiest way of boosting your weak areas and filling the gaps.
Attributes:
The question is, what can you really dump? As i see it, there are two ways to deal with this problem:
- You have really bad rolls, but one particular attribute is average to high (12-16), in which case you put it in constitution.
- You have really bad rolls, but you need your abilities to be more challenging. You put your best roll to your casting/main stat and you choose a race that has no constitution score, such as undead (e.g. Necropolitan Human).
Now you'll probably need to focus on your mental attributes and be some kind of spellcaster that depends on wisdom (e.g. druid, cleric, psychic warrior). Wisdom and constitution are keys to your most useful saves, so naturally they receive priority. Intelligence is all about skill points and usually arcane spelcasting, so it would be wise to keep it at third place. Charisma is also a nice attribute, but depends on your class features and abilities, so it can be actually dumped. Dexterity and then strength are of the least importance, because they are easily replaceable.
So to wrap it up, the stat importance is:
- Constitution or casting/main attribute and no constitution score.
- Wisdom.
- Intelligence.
- Charisma.
- Dexterity.
- Strength.
Of course the order of the last four attributes can be easily changed, according to your character's style.
Class:
Classes that depend on two or more attributes (constitution excluded) are right out. So naturally favored souls, spirit shamans, warmages and most martial classes are bad choices. Typically you can't go wrong with:
- Druid
- Wizard
- Cleric
- Psion
- Psychic Warrior
- Ardent
- Beguiler
Also, these classes focus usually on constitution and wisdom and they deserve special mention:
- Swordsage
- Dragonfire Adept
- Incarnate
- Totemist
- Dragon Shaman
Races:
It should be relatively easy to choose a race with the above attribute guidelines. Typically anything with a bonus to constitution is a fine choice, as long as it doesn't lose out on wisdom. Small intelligence hits should be ok if you aren't a skill type character and the rest are more or less dump attributes. Some obvious choices:
- Human
- Dwarf
- Gnome
- Mongrefolk
- Dream Dwarf
- Uldra (if LA buyoff is allowed)
- Anthropomorphic Bat
A very important mechanic, mentioned earlier, are the aging effects. See if you can play a venerable character of your race, receiving -6 to physical scores and +3 to your mental ones. Then you can go necropolitan to offset the constitution loss and use spells and class features to get alternate forms to boost your attributes back to normal ranges. Another way is through dragonwrought kobold, but kobolds are generally not very easy to play with bad ability scores. Also if you play a venerable kobold you'll need to find a way to immortality fast, as you'll have just a few years of life before your time is up.
Finally, if LA buyoff is allowed in your game, consider taking a template or a race with level adjustment.
Of all the templates, two are probably the most useful:
- Divine Minion: This gives you the option of completely dumping your strength and dexterity scores because of the fast wild shape option. The god selection gives you an edge, but of course limits your roleplaying capabilities. If you want to play a melee character, this is great: choose anhur as your deity and get to spend all your life in a lion form (as you can stay indefinitely in your animal form). If you want a skill-monkey or a caster form (to wear magic items and so on) Thoth is a great option, as it offers the Baboon, with 15 str, 14 dex and +1 natural armor. Moreover, the wild shape ability this template provides opens up possibilities for feats that augment the shapes you can take (such as the broken dragon wild shape).
- Necropolitan: Cheap, removes the need for a constitution score and it doesn't even cost LA. You can then work on effects to augment your undead state (such as the spellstitched template). Remember though that you are now undead and can be easily manipulated or destroyed by a clerics.
Other templates of particular importance are:
- Telthor: One of the few templates that grants you the great incorporeal subtype at a relatively low LA (+2). This means that you can completely shun strength. Unfortunately your type changes to fey, which means that it is not compatible with necropolitan, making you able to completely dump two ability scores. Telthor telepathy can probably be used with mindsight. The damage you get when outside the area you guard is a joke, with a little fast healing you can easily overcome it.
- Dragonborn: Low cost and great possibilities. It can grant you a con-based breath weapon and boosts your constitution while reducing your dexterity. The mind draconic aspect is just awesome.
However, I feel that Divine Minion deserves a 'special mention', as it allows for Pun-Punification, although it's very true that Pun-Pun (whilst he is the most powerful character ever, especially since you can ascend at level 1, which basically negates the concept of the Omniscifer) is unplayable due to his extreme broken-ness. But looking at Pun-Pun always makes me chuckle and say, "Why didn't I think of that?" (probably because I didn't have access to all the necessary books at the time). :D
Artificer- rocks too hard to be held back by low scores
Bard- Aside from a few feats, inspire courage doesn't need much
Dragonshaman- like warlock, but con helps more and needs to be closer to the fray. Second best IMO
Everything you listed is SAD, not "I don't need stats"
Warlock- the class that is independant of its ability scores
Artificer- rocks too hard to be held back by low scores
Bard- Aside from a few feats, inspire courage doesn't need much
Dragonshaman- like warlock, but con helps more and needs to be closer to the fray. Second best IMO
Everything you listed is SAD, not "I don't need stats"
Damn, i forgot about eberron. I'll include artificer. Warlocks are ok, too. Bards are a little attribute dependent, unless you want only to sing :D. Dragon Shamans are already listed.
What does SAD stands for :P? Seriously attribute dependent :P?
Damn, i forgot about eberron. I'll include artificer. Warlocks are ok, too. Bards are a little attribute dependent, unless you want only to sing :D. Dragon Shamans are already listed.
What does SAD stands for :P? Seriously attribute dependent :P?
Single attribute dependant. That 18 is f***ing everything to those classes. What bard doesn't want to sing?
- Str: 8 - 6 = 2
- Dex: 8 - 6 = 2
- Con: -
- Int: 8 + 1 (1 point) + 3 age = 12
- Wis: 8 + 9 (7 points) + 3 age = 18
- Cha: 8 + 3 age = 11
Total points used: 10 (10 point buy !)
You'll need corrupted wild shape Libris Mortis to make it work and it's completely unplayable at levels 1-5. Also note that you should avoid melee and focus more on casting/summoning.
Pretty sure that Archer hit it on the head with Artificer rocking too hard to need high stats. Although, it'd be best for an Artificer to have a nice high charisma score to pump up that UMD. Can't exactly craft the uber magic items if they can't succeed in their checks to emulate spell effects. But other then that, they can just simulate good stats with magic items.
Yep. Worst case artificer is just a bit more in line with the rest of the party.
Also:
Venerable? You're kidding me. The dex of 2 is suicide. +1 to dcs is not that important. Middle aged at max.
Single attribute dependant. That 18 is f***ing everything to those classes. What bard doesn't want to sing?
i was joking about SAD ^^
There are ways around that 18, like 12-headed hydra, polymorph and arcane strike :P
All bards want to sing, it's party member bards who want to make a difference :P
Yep. Worst case artificer is just a bit more in line with the rest of the party.
Also:
Venerable? You're kidding me. The dex of 2 is suicide. +1 to dcs is not that important. Middle aged at max.
wild shape to the rescue ?
wild shape to the rescue ?
No such thing as a necropolitan druid.
Gishes are more MAD than standard wizards. The caster wizard is perfect SAD.
No such thing as a necropolitan druid.
why :P? racism?
Seriously, corrupted wild shape, same book with necropolitan.
why :P? racism?
Seriously, corrupted wild shape, same book with necropolitan.
Druids shall not burn feats.
Druids also need HP to melee unlike wizards, who don't melee.
Druids shall not burn feats.
Druids also need HP to melee unlike wizards, who don't melee.
Who cares? The point is that it's playable with little to no resources, desperate times call for desperate measures.
Check the thread title again :P
Who cares? The point is that it's playable with little to no resources, desperate times call for desperate measures.
Check the thread title again :P
Seriously DM... Druids have 2 stats:
wis and con
You're not allowed to get rid of one of your most important stats.
Seriously DM... Druids have 2 stats:
wis and con
You're not allowed to get rid of one of your most important stats.
how much con will you have at venerable, even old age? 14? 15? And that's if you start with a 18.
average d12 = 6.5
average d8 + 2 = 6.5
same.
Don't start on why druid's shouldn't come to this in the first place, because i absolutely want to play a druid in 15 point buy campaign :D.
how much con will you have at venerable, even old age? 14? 15? And that's if you start with a 18.
average d12 = 6.5
average d8 + 2 = 6.5
same.
Don't start on why druid's shouldn't come to this in the first place, because i absolutely want to play a druid in 15 point buy campaign :D.
Compendium: A guide to low scores
18-6=12
No such thing as a venerable druid before level 15 either.
Seriously DM... Druids have 2 stats:
wis and con
You're not allowed to get rid of one of your most important stats.
Sure you are, if you're not even using it (i.e., an undead or construct). Surviving to level 6 might be a ***** with 2s for all physical stats, though. :D
For a necropolitan, you have an "effective" hp boost switching to d12s (for druids this is like a Con 14, for Wizards it's like having a Con 18). Oh sure, you folks make the argument again that buying stat boosting Con items will make it more worthwhile in the longrun, but money fixes everything. You could take that money and bump your cloak of resistance up another notch or two or a nice staff or perhaps an armoir of endless harems.
By the time you get to high levels, I find Con rather moot unless you're well into the high 20's or up. The hp buffer against death gets smaller and smaller as enemies become stronger.
Stuff.
I'm specifically talking about druids. Druids are known to get into melee and have the bite of XXX spells before anyone else.
Compendium: A guide to low scores
18-6=12
No such thing as a venerable druid before level 15 either.
That was my point in the first place. You get more HP by going necropolitan.
Also you don't actually lose feats, since you can take augment summoning from initiate of malar instead of getting first spell focus (conjuration). Of course, you will have some problem with rashemi elemental summoning, but malar fits thematically, too.
Sure you are, if you're not even using it (i.e., an undead or construct). Surviving to level 6 might be a ***** with 2s for all physical stats, though. :D
Yup, that's a real pain. I guess you can use HP enhancers probably and retrain later, after the transformation.
Or, you know :P start adventuring at level 6 :P
My experiences have shown Con to be overvalued unless you expect to really be in a lot of melee and are the sort that enjoys getting your hands dirty. For non melee types, I find a Con 14 to be reasonable. Oh sure there are always times I wish I had more hp, but I just as equally wish I had more Str, or a better reflex save, or more skill points, etc, and many of those situations have been life or death as well.
For a necropolitan, you have an "effective" hp boost switching to d12s (for druids this is like a Con 14, for Wizards it's like having a Con 18). Oh sure, you folks make the argument again that buying stat boosting Con items will make it more worthwhile in the longrun, but money fixes everything. You could take that money and bump your cloak of resistance up another notch or two or a nice staff or perhaps an armoir of endless harems.
By the time you get to high levels, I find Con rather moot unless you're well into the high 20's or up. The hp buffer against death gets smaller and smaller as enemies become stronger.
i definitely go for con, but this is a special occasion :P
I'm specifically talking about druids. Druids are known to get into melee and have the bite of XXX spells before anyone else.
druid casters are not unheard of. You can play a summoner and skip the melee part.
//edit: anyway, this is just a stub, anyone knows about stuff to add in the first post? I have yet to cover class features, feats, spells, etc. Items should be interesting.
Oh sure, you folks make the argument again that buying stat boosting Con items will make it more worthwhile in the longrun, but money fixes everything. You could take that money and bump your cloak of resistance up another notch or two or a nice staff or perhaps an armoire of endless harems.
I would totally buy one of those.
Though if your DM allows backpackwarrior, STR can be safely dumped down to 2.
I would like to point out that Dumping STR down to 2 will end with you unable to carry anything or wear armor.
Though if your DM allows backpackwarrior, STR can be safely dumped down to 2.
:S
Wild Shape into virtually anything and carry your armor.
At 6th level you can be wild shaped 12 hours (+8 sleep), only 4 hours in 2 STR.
At 7th level you can stay all day wild shaped 21 hours (5 of which you'll probably be sleeping).
druid casters are not unheard of. You can play a summoner and skip the melee part.
//edit: anyway, this is just a stub, anyone knows about stuff to add in the first post? I have yet to cover class features, feats, spells, etc. Items should be interesting.
The counter I've been waiting for. If there is a disclaimer to come with advice it should be given.
The counter I've been waiting for. If there is a disclaimer to come with advice it should be given.
it's obvious that this is a special case, i think that anyone playing a caster with so low ability scores wouldn't expect to fulfill all his roles perfectly.
it's obvious that this is a special case, i think that anyone playing a caster with so low ability scores wouldn't expect to fulfill all his roles perfectly.
Obvious to you and me maybe, but for a guide I'd like to just be able to just drop a link for a noob.
Obvious to you and me maybe, but for a guide I'd like to just be able to just drop a link for a noob.
i added a disclaimer to make things easier.
The scores you are talking about seem artificially low. A lot of players roll for stats, and going by that method you get to reroll unless you have at least a 13. And with a 13 you'll be a fine caster (wizard, cleric, whatever); w/a +6 item you'll get 9th lvl spells on time.
Do you mean an average of 13? We used to use that, too.
Which means even with my horrible roll (13, 10, 10, 9, 9, 8), which I could've rerolled, I can still make a decent caster.
If you have a 14, 10, 10, 10, 10, 8 (I guess the worst roll you can have without needing to reroll) you will be fine for any type of caster ...
I would totally buy one of those.
Heh, I was wondering if someone would catch that
- you don't list warlock... they're pretty non-dependant on scores (and usually are flying and invisible )
- what about classes with a high will save? A duskblade blaster comes to mind
- what about the illumian race? Since you'll be able to shift your bonus-spell granting score, you'll reduce MAD (gishs, for example)
- I think the binder deserves special mention
- the wildshape ranger deserves special mention (even more so if you chose the spells vs. bonus feats variant from CC)
- the petal from MM3 deserves special mention (skill monkeys/Cha-monkeys hooray!)
Other then that: Another nice thread by Mr. Mortum
EJ
EDIT:
You should provide examples for "low-point buys" or standard/elite-arrays...
Plus: The worst stats I've rolled don't list a single score higher then 14; I think it's not very challenging to compensate for low point buys if you're allowed to a) LA buy-off, b) be venerable, c) cherry-pick undead-templates. No offense, but I've not played a single game where all of those rules were allowed, in most of them all were banned (and my DMs are quite liberal with "new" stuff)...
/EDIT
But i realized that this stuff is useful not only to characters that suffer from bad rolls, but to those that are extremely low on a specific score, too (necropolitan for low con, or altering yourself for str and dex).
However we have payed a lot of attention to druids, venerable characters and undead, when the most prosperous field to increase your ability scores is probably spells!
I thought its worth a special mention: I've seen some fairly convincing arguments that the Necropolitan's d12 HD only applies to racial HD, not HD derived from class levels.
I think its worth a note next to the Necropolitan template.
Just noticed this thread linked to another recent one.
I thought its worth a special mention: I've seen some fairly convincing arguments that the Necropolitan's d12 HD only applies to racial HD, not HD derived from class levels.
I think its worth a note next to the Necropolitan template.
That would really suck.
Master of Many Forms Prc I believe deserves mention. If you aren't using the erratad wild shape, it has NAD. No Attribute Dependency. If you are, it needs Single Attribute Dependency. There was a thread a long while back talking about a character with 8's across the board, and consensus was MoMF was the only way to go.
Warlock is more NAD than that.
Where's the Dragonfire Adept from?
Dragon Magic. It's basically a draconic flavoured warlock. Combined with the entangling exhalation feat from Races of the Dragon, it's one of the strongest battlefield controller outside of pure casters. You can check out the DFA handbook here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=780301
6 Str(10- 4 Racial)
18 Dex(10+8 Racial)
10 Con(10)
16 Int(10+6 Racial)
14 Wis(10+4 Racial)
16 Cha(10 +6 Racial)
with free Weapon Finnesse .... you can play virtually Any Type of Character with ECL 5
:D
:D
Classes that depend on two or more attributes (constitution excluded) are right out. So naturally favored souls, spirit shamans, warmages and most martial classes are bad choices. Typically you can't go wrong with:
Spirit Shaman would be one of my first picks if my attributes were crappy.
I would put my best stat in Con, and my second best in Wis. Dump the rest.
Yes, I would dump Cha - no question.
Then I would focus my spells on two themes - healing and summoning. Neither of which rely on saving throw DC's. This way you can stay out of the action - have your summoned animals take the beating for you - and you can summon LOTS (way more than a druid of equivalent level).
Your HP would be pretty good (d8 + decent con) so you would be survivable - and once you get a ring of the beast, greenbound and rapid spell - you are one of the more powerful members of your party.
Or at least that's my take on it.
Watched a friend play a Spirit Shaman once and came to this conclusion. Through the campaign I do not think he cast a single spell requiring a saving throw - so his high CHA was a complete waste for casting (in his case he was our diplomacy expert - so the CHA did have use - but not for casting)
I decided at that point that should I ever play a Spirit Shaman I'll dump CHA, and be singular attribute dependant on top of the best spell advancement chart in the game.
if you have Very low scores..... just Play a Pixie.... even with 10,10,10,10,10,10 for attributes... a Pixie makes them:
6 Str(10- 4 Racial)
18 Dex(10+8 Racial)
10 Con(10)
16 Int(10+6 Racial)
14 Wis(10+4 Racial)
16 Cha(10 +6 Racial)
with free Weapon Finnesse .... you can play virtually Any Type of Character with ECL 5
:D
Pixie Warlock. If they don't have Fast Healing, point and shoot until they die or run away. Or just fly past them invisibly entirely.
Str 2, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 18 - better at "warlocking" at 3 important stats (Dex, Con and Cha) and a level adjustment of +2 (2 lower than a pixie). Ah, you're one size smaller (better hit and AC); sure, you've got no invisibility (d'oh, of course you do: You're a warlock) but you retain some cold iron damage reduction.
In 9/10 games I'd chose petal over pixie.
EJ
edit: fixed
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sprite.htm#pixie
Mh, why pixie? A petal with the same base scores (10@everything) gets
Str 2, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 18 - better at "warlocking" at 3 important stats (Dex, Con and Cha) and a level adjustment of +2 (2 lower than a pixie). Ah, you're one size smaller (better hit and AC); sure, you've got no invisibility (d'oh, of course you do: You're a warlock) but you retain some cold iron damage reduction.
In 9/10 games I'd chose petal over pixie.
EJ
the main reason ..... Logistics:
a Pixie is simply a Small creature..... but they are Tiny and are so Weak... with -8 Str .... if they had a Str of 2 they cant carry anything:
2 Str = Light load: 6 lb. or less , Medium load: 7–13 lb., Heavy Load:14–20 lb.
a regular clay Pitcher weighs 5 lb, and almost puts them under a Medium load.... even if they had:
"Handy Haversack: A backpack of this sort appears to be well made, well used, and quite ordinary. It is constructed of finely tanned leather, and the straps have brass hardware and buckles. It has two side pouches, each of which appears large enough to hold about a quart of material. In fact, each is like a bag of holding and can actually hold material of as much as 2 cubic feet in volume or 20 pounds in weight. The large central portion of the pack can contain up to 8 cubic feet or 80 pounds of material. Even when so filled, the backpack always weighs only 5 pounds.
While such storage is useful enough, the pack has an even greater power in addition. When the wearer reaches into it for a specific item, that item is always on top. Thus, no digging around and fumbling is ever necessary to find what a haversack contains. Retrieving any specific item from a haversack is a move action, but it does not provoke the attacks of opportunity that retrieving a stored item usually does.
Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Wondrous Item, secret chest; Price 2,000 gp;Weight 5 lb.
"
where as the Pixie has:
6 Str = Light Load: 20 lb. or less , Medium load: 21–40 lb. Heavy load: 41–60 lb.
not to mention Greater invisibility.... that alone is a Huge benifit ....
Because there's still the debate of Petal being a legal pc race since the monster entry says Cohort+2, not LA+2.
fixed
:D
okay, nice thougths, but why not do that with druid instead :P?
Easy - look at a Druids spellcaster progression chart, then look at the Spirit Shamans.
Not that the Druid option doesn't work (it is actually a good choice because of wildshape) - but it is a different flavor. It will rely more on wildshape and less on summoning.
Merely pointing out that Spirit Shaman is a good choice for weak stats.
Anyway, the real reason I'm posting: Why is the Spirit Chaman stat independent? I thought it was a dual stat caster?
Best approach would be Wilder 1 - choose Vigor - all feats + flaw feats into extra power points.
2pp class + 2pp hi cha bonus + 2pp 1st psi-talent feat + 3pp 2nd + 4pp 3rd + 5pp 4th = 18 pp
Wilder's wild surge gets 2/1.05 pp efficiency increase = ~34 pp of Vigor every day = 170 temporary hit points.
That'll cover 1 hit point rather well, and most early failed Fort saves.
:D
Half-elf with the Human Heritage (RoD) feat starts as a Human Paragon (UA), does Half-Elf Paragon and finally Elf Paragon through the divided ancestry feature.
(Note that the use of Human Heritage to get Human Paragon first and stack all 3 paragon classes relies on shaky sematics. Still, if you can get away with it, it is not overpowered.)
It allows you to rebuild your ability scores, as you get +8 to them over the first 10 levels. Add a level of Wizard at level 2, and you also get spellcasting as wizard level six, medium BaB and lots of bonus feats, etc.
You can also drop Elf Paragon and Wizard for Bard 4. It gives +6 to your abilities over the first 10 levels and you can go Sublime Chord + the PrC of your choice after level 10.
You don't have that much to contribute before Sublime Chord, though.
Edit: Simply playing a half-elf (or Half- Orc) with the Paragon Classes can let you do some rebuilding. Half-Elf 1/Any spellcaster 2/Half-elf Paragon 3/Human Paragon 3 gives + 6 to apply to your ability scores, 2 bonus feats, 5 spellcaster levels and BaB +5 over 8 levels.
From there on you should be able to qualify for most PrCs.