Compilation of Power Point Recharge Methods - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 lormador Jun 28, 2011 19:04:19	Hi, everyone. Please assist with the development of this fledgling compilation. Lately several different Psionic Power Point recharge methods have come to my attention. I'd like to collect them for those interested in such subjects. 1. Core SRD Psionics recharge. [Races of Stone relates to this method] Requires: Wilder 3 + Torc of Power Preservation, knowledge of Bestow Power. Method: Use Wild Surge for 2, and the Torc of Power Preservation, to manifest Bestow Power on yourself with a single augmentation, to gain 4 power points at a cost of 3 power points. There is a 10% chance of Psychic Enervation. With enough power points to start with (to avoid a series of unlucky Psychic Enervations). The expected return is +0.6 PP/manifestation (imagine doing this 10 times, 9 times you get +1 PP, and one time you lose 3 PP). Note: One can use Earth Power from Races of Stone to substitute either the Wilder levels or the Torc of Power Preservation. 2. Earth Power + Torc of Power Preservation recharge. Requires: Knowledge of Bestow Power, the Earth Power feat, and the item mentioned. Method: Stand on stone and manifest Bestow Power on yourself. The Torc of Power Preservation pays 1 point for you, and Stone Power pays another. You thus gain 2 points after spending 1, and can recharge. 3. StP Erudite Mental Pinnacle recharge. Requires: Spell-to-Power Erudite, Expanded Knowledge (Bestow Power), knowledge of Mental Pinnacle as a power. Method: A very simple method- simply manifest Mental Pinnacle on yourself, then use Bestow Power to grant yourself the power points. The power generates more points than it costs to manifest. You can even pay 2 power points with StP Erudite to eliminate the costly material component. Yeah, Erudite is sick- but we have to play something when the other guy has a Planar Shepard, right? 4. Naberius Body Fuel trick. Requires: ability to bind Naberius, Body Fuel feat. Method: Another simple one, just use Body Fuel to restore your psionic power points. Naberius will heal the ability damage. Note that this method is a bit shady, in that it's not clear that 'ability burn damage' can be healed by Naberius. I don't personally think it's clear that it can't, either. It's a game, just do what's fun. 5. Dweomer of Transference + Energy Transformation Field. Requires: Two Energy Transformation Fields with Dweomer of Transference attached to one, a targeted spell attacked to the other; creature with one at-will spell-like ability; knowledge of Bestow Power. Method: Stand in the Energy Transformation Field with the Dweomer of Transference with the SLA creature. Have it use its SLA enough times to activate the Dweomer on you. Take a walk to the other field, and get the creature to do its thing again. When the Transformation Field casts the spell on you, the Dweomer of Transference (actually a decent defensive spell) absorbs it. The power points are temporary- so use Bestow Power. This is kind of overkill for a power point recharge- but I'm trying to be complete. Everyone knows Energy Transformation Field is easily abused. 6. Efting Spectral Savant. Requires: being a Spectral Savant, knowledge of the Shadow Eft power. Method: Summon an eft, and Siphon Power it. The eft has more points than you spent to summon it in the first place. 7. Astral Harvest. Requires: Greater Demolition Crystal, Mindfeeder weapon, knowledge of Astral Construct, knowledge of Bestow Power. Method: If you use the XPH without errate, you can just use a Mindfeeding Dissipator weapon on an Astral Construct you've summoned. You get 1 temporary PP per critical hit, and against ectoplasmic targets- a Mindfeeding Dissipator always scores a critical hit! The errata took this away (Mindfeeder worked 1/day), but the Magic Item Compendium gave it back (unwittingly). The MIC Mindfeeder doesn't automatically critical hit Astral Constructs, and thus normally could not crit them at all. Enter the Greater Demolition Crystal. The cool part- you can give the Crystal to the rogue for combat! The Power Points from the weapon disappear quickly- so you know what to do with them. Bestow Power yourself. Note: I am continually editing this post reflecting further developments in the thread, according to the comments of others. It may thus appear that subsequent posts are oddly pointing out problems that don't exist. This is not the case. I have simply learned from their wisdom, and updated the compilation accordingly.
#2 Tempest_Stormwind Jun 28, 2011 20:40:24	1. Core SRD Psionics recharge. Requires: Wilder 1 + Torc of Power Preservation, or Wilder 3, knowledge of Bestow Power. Method: Use Wild Surge for 1, and the Torc of Power Preservation, to manifest Bestow Power on yourself for 2 points at a cost of 1 power point. There is a 5% chance of Psychic Enervation. With enough power points to start with (to avoid a series of unlucky Psychic Enervations). The expected return of 20 manifestations is 37 points, a recharge. Note: One can use Earth Power from Races of Stone to substitute either the Wilder level(s), or the Torc of Power Preservation. You can't actually do this with just Wilder 1. Wild Surge provides augmentation, not manifestation, costs for free. Other related methods appear to work, though. (Arguments about the Torc in CPsi "replacing" the XPH one notwithstanding.) 3 . Naberius Body Fuel trick. Requires: ability to bind Naberius, Body Fuel feat. Method: Another really simple one, just use Body Fuel to restore your psionic power points. Naberius will heal the ability damage. Note that this method is a bit shady, in that it's not clear that 'ability burn damage' can be healed by Naberius. Put me down in the "no" camp here too; if Naberius had text like Fast Healing ('just like natural healing'), I would support this. (That said, when I was helping write the society mind, we had a problem like this come up: On a strict reading, Fast Healing only heals creatures with fast healing, so if you somehow find a way to bridge that healing around, it wouldn't heal non-fast-healers, which would add another layer of complexity to the Naberius method.) #2 works, but the fact that it relies upon three twisted things to do speaks volumes. (People have called the StP Erudite "tier zero" for a reason. Not even the artificer can do what it can.) Here's one you missed: The Efting Spectral Savant. Become a Spectal Savant and learn Shadow Eft. The eft appears with more power points than it costs to summon, and you can Siphon Power from them. One that does NOT rely on CPsi isn't quite as ideal as the others but is also far, far more likely to be allowed in a game: The Astral Harvest. A Mindfeeding Dissipator weapon grants you 1 temporary PP per 5 damage dealt on a crit, and considers any successful attack against ectoplasmic targets as an automatic critical hit. They're non-stacking, and they do evaporate over time, so this trick is best used out of combat where you can summon, stab, and manifest a buff or utility power ad nauseum. The original trick involved simply creating an astral construct to stab and leech the temporary PP, but the XPH errata changed Mindfeeder to 1/day. The MIC version changed it back to unlimited, but also says mindfeeder doesn't trigger against astral constructs (since they are immune to crits). Thankfully, it also gave us a workaround: The Greater Demolition Crystal lets you bypass construct crit immunity. And the best part is, since this is a non-combat trick, you can give the crystal to your rogue for actual combat!
#3 lormador Jun 28, 2011 22:33:54	Thanks for your help! I hadn't heard of either of those tricks before. I'll update the compilation when I get some time. But let's get this right about the Wilder recharge (good catch). Wouldn't it then be possible, with Wild Surge+2 from Wilder 4, to manifest Bestow Power for 6 (one augmentation- with the Wild Surge paying for 2/3 of this cost), at a cost of 4 power points, with 1 PP then coming from the Torc of Power Preservation or Earth Power? Then with a 10% chance of losing 3 PP (assuming either the Torc or Earth Power), and a 90% chance of gaining 1 PP, our expected return is +.6PP/manifestation. And yeah, I know StP Erudite is a strong Tier 1. But people do play it sometimes, and I'm not really concerned with practicalities here. I just want to make a compilation of all the Power Point recharges, and Erudite certainly has this really easy one. Regarding fast healing- there's an easy (but expensive) way to get it. Sithilar graft.
#4 Tempest_Stormwind Jun 29, 2011 11:25:37	Minor correction to your take on Astral Harvest: Mindfeeder grants 1 temporary power point per five points of damage the critical hit dealt, not one per hit. Similarly, while Dissipator isn't required (and is unlisted in your OP), it certainly helps, since most manifesters aren't built to score critical hits on command (and your targets don't last forever). There's also the assorted Affinity Field tricks (anything relating to Bestow Power can be used to recharge the whole team - but the real advantage is that this will work even if the DM says you cannot use Bestow Power on yourself (charging an ally will spread to you). It just means you need to wait 14 levels later than usual to do this.), but these generally go without saying. You can also use a poor-man's version of this if you work with the psicrystals-get-feats ruling - if your psicrystal learns Hidden Talent or Wild Talent, you may be able to Bestow Power + Share Powers to double up on whatever you bestow on yourself. (Since you're targeting yourself, you transfer a number of PP to yourself up to your manifester level. That effect is shared with the psicrystal. This is different from targeting the psicrystal, where you could at most transfer 0 (for Wild Talent) or 1 (for Hidden Talent) power point per manifestation.) I've looked long and hard for a way to exploit Hidden Talent on psicrystals, but the absence of psionic classes (for either Practiced Manifeter or Manifest A Power From Another's Powers Known purposes) makes this pretty hard to do. I should clarify that I really don't think Bestow Power should ever have been printed, or if it had, it shouldn't have been done as a power (just to avoid all of this tomfoolery), and that I flat-out refuse to ever learn it as a result. The only method I've seen that doesn't rely on templating or Bestow Power is the Astral Harvest, and that's functionally limited (temporary PP with a short duration), synergizes with physical attack damage (meaning the only class that can both manifest Astral Construct and synergize with physical damage on its own is the ardent) and requires an expensive melee weapon.
#5 darioth Jun 29, 2011 13:29:39	The torc of power preservation was powered down to the point it works 3 times per day in MIC so any combo relaying on it was destroyed. Four more you forgot are the α Celebrilith calling savant(same as the efting savant but faster,available at higher levels and costing a 7th level power) β larva flayer calling savant (same as the efting savant but slower ,doable at lower levels and costs the knowledge of a lower level power) γ fuel in a vest (take body fuel and the feat that lets you shape a soulmeld found in the magic of incarnum,then take the soulmeld that looks like a vest and has the ability to reduce ability damage,note that ability burn is ability damage that doesn't heal magically but as ability damage it can be stopped before taking its toll on you) and δ the meditationist:Manifester with at least 3pp, knowing the bestow power and having the linked power and two times the metapower (bestow power) feats.First round you sit in a meditation stance (you have a reputation) and cast bestow power linked with bestow power and pay for the first and not the second manifestation that will go off the next round.Profit is 1pp/two rounds after the first or 1pp/per round after the first if you have the psionic meditation feat.
#6 Tempest_Stormwind Jun 29, 2011 15:34:15	The torc of power preservation was powered down to the point it works 3 times per day in MIC so any combo relaying on it was destroyed. That's the argument I mentioned above: It also changed the price of the item pretty dramatically. Different price, different effect - some say it's actually a different item (i.e. a "lesser" torc of power preservation). I don't think it is, but then again, I think the two are actually priced reasonably appropriately as if they were. However, as Lormandor mentioned, the Earth Power feat can be used in place of the Torc, and it isn't limited in times per day. (Instead, it costs two feats and requires you to be both focused and standing on the ground. And yet, somehow, the magic version has fewer restrictions and far more power.) Four more you forgot are the α Celebrilith calling savant(same as the efting savant but faster,available at higher levels and costing a 7th level power) β larva flayer calling savant (same as the efting savant but slower ,doable at lower levels and costs the knowledge of a lower level power) γ fuel in a vest (take body fuel and the feat that lets you shape a soulmeld found in the magic of incarnum,then take the soulmeld that looks like a vest and has the ability to reduce ability damage,note that ability burn is ability damage that doesn't heal magically but as ability damage it can be stopped before taking its toll on you) and δ the meditationist:Manifester with at least 3pp, knowing the bestow power and having the linked power and two times the metapower (bestow power) feats.First round you sit in a meditation stance (you have a reputation) and cast bestow power linked with bestow power and pay for the first and not the second manifestation that will go off the next round.Profit is 1pp/two rounds after the first or 1pp/per round after the first if you have the psionic meditation feat. Alpha and Beta are essentially the same thing as the Efting Savant, but remain valid options, so they could be rolled into the same discussion. Gamma is subject to the same problem that Hellfire Warlocks have - the damage you take from Body Fuel is a cost, so if you prevent the cost, you don't get the effect. Unlike the hellfire warlock, here the rules are perfectly clear: Body Fuel says you gain the PP "by taking" 1 point of damage; the Strongheart Vest says that "any time you would take ability damage...the amount of damage is reduced by 1 point" (with extra essentia raising that limit, and the example clearly demonstrating that if it prevents all the damage, you "take" zero damage). In other words, using Body Fuel with the Strongheart Vest to prevent the damage, you "take" zero damage, and regain zero PP. I don't have ToM with me to check the exact text on Naberius' faster ability healing; I know it works with the Hellfire Warlock since the warlock just uses ability damage (it seems no book outside of the XPH, not even CPsi, ever bothered to use Ability Burn, which is a shame). I doubt it will work for ability burn since ability burn says it cannot be magically or psionically healed, and as I recall Naberius' healing is a Supernatural ability, which is magical. (If it works "like natural healing", it might bypass it, but I doubt it.) Delta has a bigger problem: Metapower explicitly cannot be stacked with the same metapsionic feat, so you can't pick Metapower (Linked Bestow Power) twice. Furthermore, a Metapower (Linked Bestow Power) is identical to augmenting Bestow Power one more time, but trading your psionic focus for just 2 pp (the amount that the augment would gain you). (That is, a 9th level manifester with Metapower (Linked Bestow Power) could manifest a 9pp Bestow Power, or [6pp Bestow Power]+[1pp Bestow Power] for 7pp and his psionic focus, and both would restore +6pp.) If your ML is not a multiple of 3, this will let you squeeze in one extra "augment" at the cost of your focus, but that's no different from Overchannel+Talented. You could get a similar effect with Metapower (Twin Bestow Power), but that works out to be better on its own than when combined with Linked Power due to the extra costs involved in doing both: Show Calculations: Bestow Power: 3 pp to transfer 2 pp. (Augments: +3pp to transfer +2 pp.) Link: [Bestow Power]+[Bestow Power]: 3pp+3pp to restore 2+2pp, each augmented separately. MetaLink: [Bestow Power]+[Meta Bestow Power]: 3pp+1pp to restore 2+2pp, each augmented separately. Twin: Bestow Power x2: 9pp to restore 4pp. (Augments progress as: 12:8, 15:12, 18:16, and so on. At ML 24 (Wild Surge can reach this), you break even.) MetaTwin: MetaTwin Bestow Power : 7pp to restore 4pp. (Augments progress as: 10:8, 13:12, 16:16, and so on, saving you eight levels to break even and allowing you to do a raw restore at ML 19, with 19:20.) MetaTwin + MetaLink: [MetaTwin Bestow Power]+[Meta Bestow Power]: 8pp to restore 4+2pp, each augmented separately. Since Twin Power augments have a 4:3 return on investment while Linked Power augments have a 2:3 return on investment, it's more efficient to augment the Twin power. Assuming you augment just the Meta Twin, the pattern of cost:benefit is: 8:6, 11:10, 14:14, 17:18, 20:22. These each also cost you two psionic foci to perform (and requires six feats: Twin, MetaTwin, Link, MetaLink, Affinity, and Containment). Compare with MetaTwin on its own (which this same six-feat character would be able to perform by expending only one psionic focus, and other characters can perform with only two of those six feats): 7:4, 10:8, 13:12, 16:16, 19:20 Yes, MetaTwin+MetaLink lets you break even at level 14 instead of 16, at the cost of two foci and four extra feats. However, you could replace those four feats with one (Overchannel) or zero (Wild Surge) and be able to break even at level 13 (Overchannel) or 12 (Wilder) for only a single psionic focus. Similarly, while you can turn a profit at ML 17, the Overchanneller can turn a profit at ML 16, and the wilder can turn a profit at ML 15. (Actually, Wilders come out a bit ahead, since this assumes they're not actually gaining extra PP from their surges, which of course they do, but this is a first-order estimate.) Finally, if you use something like a Torc or Earth Power, note that it affects both of them the same way (since with Linked you aren't actually manifesting the power twice, you're shovelling its PP cost in as a metapsionic cost, which is why MetaLink works at all), and since everything here is linear (costs, gains, etc), the torc (a linear transform applied evenly to everything) doesn't actually change this relationship. It would just change the break-even points a bit, but it wouldn't change the fact that Overchannel or Wild Surge would let you do it even earlier. I'm not sure I consider that a good trade, even factoring in the costs of Overchannel. I haven't run the numbers on Psychic Enervation.
#7 ObsidianConspiracy Jun 29, 2011 21:17:36	Strongheart Vest + Body Fuel Depends on how you read things
#8 Tempest_Stormwind Jun 29, 2011 22:46:10	Strongheart Vest + Body Fuel Depends on how you read things No, not really. There's some arguments on the Hellfire Warlock (which uses different language, and I usually just suggest Naberius instead since that WILL work there while the Vest will just start arguments), but on Body Fuel, it's perfectly clear. And I covered that above, too. [that method] is subject to the same problem that Hellfire Warlocks have - the damage you take from Body Fuel is a cost, so if you prevent the cost, you don't get the effect. Unlike the hellfire warlock, here the rules are perfectly clear: Body Fuel says you gain the PP "by taking" 1 point of damage; the Strongheart Vest says that "any time you would take ability damage...the amount of damage is reduced by 1 point" (with extra essentia raising that limit, and the example clearly demonstrating that if it prevents all the damage, you "take" zero damage). In other words, using Body Fuel with the Strongheart Vest to prevent the damage, you "take" zero damage, and regain zero PP. I don't have ToM with me to check the exact text on Naberius' faster ability healing; I know it works with the Hellfire Warlock since the warlock just uses ability damage (it seems no book outside of the XPH, not even CPsi, ever bothered to use Ability Burn, which is a shame). I doubt it will work for ability burn since ability burn says it cannot be magically or psionically healed, and as I recall Naberius' healing is a Supernatural ability, which is magical. (If it works "like natural healing", it might bypass it, but I doubt it.) So, once more, Body Fuel says: You can recover 2 power points by taking 1 point of ability burn damage to each of your three ability scores: Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution. While the Strongheart Vest says: any time you would take ability damage...the amount of damage is reduced by 1 point. Therefore, you never actually take the 1 point of ability damage, so you never recover the power points. It's like saying you buy food in exchange for giving up some money, but then something reduces the amount of money you give the shop to 0, so you don't actually buy the food. This is different from the Hellfire Warlock, which uses looser language that doesn't expressly call out the damage you take is a cost. (It just says "every time you use ths ability, you take 1 point of Constitution damage." and provides a description that strongly suggests it's a cost.) Compare to Body Fuel, where it expressly IS a cost. I also have my ToM now, and Faster Ability Healing says this: You heal 1 point in each damaged ability score every round, and 1 point in all drained ability scores every hour. It has no reference to natural healing, so it's a property of the ability itself, which - as a pact ability - is supernatural. Supernatural abilities are all magical, and Body Fuel uses Ability Burn, which is like ability damage except that it cannot be magically or psionically healed. Thus, I'm forced to conclude that not even Naberius can circumvent Ability Burn.
#9 Slagger_the_Chuul Jun 30, 2011 0:31:23	So, once more, Body Fuel says: You can recover 2 power points by taking 1 point of ability burn damage to each of your three ability scores: Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution. While the Strongheart Vest says: any time you would take ability damage...the amount of damage is reduced by 1 point. Therefore, you never actually take the 1 point of ability damage, so you never recover the power points. It's like saying you buy food in exchange for giving up some money, but then something reduces the amount of money you give the shop to 0, so you don't actually buy the food. That could happen in real life with a gift voucher or similiar discount. A fairly direct comparison would be to say that a fire makes heat by burning fuel. If you reduce the amount of fuel you're burning to nothing, you don't make any heat and you don't have a fire.
#10 lormador Jun 30, 2011 18:46:30	It goes either way with the Naberius and Body Fuel thing. It says- Benefit: You can recover 2 power points by taking 1 point of ability burn damage to each of your three ability scores: Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution. Ability 'burn' is a special thing, but it is still a type of damage. They probably shouldn't have written that, but they did. And although it also says that this ability burn damage is special, in that it cannot be magically or psionically healed, Naberius' healing isn't exactly either of those. It's a Supernatural ability, neither spell-like nor dispellable. It's suppressed in an antimagic field. One might read 'supernatural' as a superior variety of 'natural' healing, and another might read 'supernatural' as the opposite of 'natural' and disallow the maneuver. The Soulmeld thing appears to me to be a far shadier maneuver, but still worthy of inclusion, because PP Recharges will always need express DM permission in the first place. Once I work out the Twin Bestow Power, Metapower calculations myself I'll include that too. It's high quality work. It amuses me to imagine a Scythe being used for the Astral Harvest.
#11 darioth Jun 30, 2011 20:34:26	I think that the strongheart vest works on body fuel:there are costs on many powers and that are backlash to the user and if you prevent the costs you don't lose the the effect unless it is mentioned.Example to this is the backlass damage for the epic spells that was needed to mention that it couldn't be reduced. You pay the cost to get the benefit,it is just reduced,like the power points you have to pay for a power while using the old version of the torc of power preservation,if you say that one happens the other happens too. In the strongheart vest it says that whenever you take ability bamage it just reduces it by one.I still pay the cost for body fuel it nis just zero and if zero gets me nothing I have to be told that because its against the overall meaning of the text the same way it is with the torc where it is mentioned that you can't reduce the cost below one and if it didn't say that everyone with a torc would had been having at will 1st level powers at no cost. Ah and sorry for the misinformation on the metapower I'll make amends with reminding one other recharge method using the midnight augmentation feat found in magic of incarnum.I am sleepy enough to right it now and if any other wants to write it down good otherwise I'll write it later.
#12 Slagger_the_Chuul Jun 30, 2011 21:46:26	It goes either way with the Naberius and Body Fuel thing. It says- Benefit: You can recover 2 power points by taking 1 point of ability burn damage to each of your three ability scores: Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution. Ability 'burn' is a special thing, but it is still a type of damage. They probably shouldn't have written that, but they did. And although it also says that this ability burn damage is special, in that it cannot be magically or psionically healed, Naberius' healing isn't exactly either of those. It's a Supernatural ability, neither spell-like nor dispellable. It's suppressed in an antimagic field. One might read 'supernatural' as a superior variety of 'natural' healing, and another might read 'supernatural' as the opposite of 'natural' and disallow the maneuver. Supernatural abilities are magical. Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic. They're not spells, but are still magical. In the strongheart vest it says that whenever you take ability bamage it just reduces it by one.I still pay the cost for body fuel it nis just zero and if zero gets me nothing I have to be told that because its against the overall meaning of the text the same way it is with the torc where it is mentioned that you can't reduce the cost below one and if it didn't say that everyone with a torc would had been having at will 1st level powers at no cost. Looking at the strongheart vest (and particularly it's "Essentia" section), it appears that it you take less damage because the soulmeld subtracts its protection from the damage dealt. There is a very important distinction here for mechanical purposes, because "deal damage" is something that happens before you apply defenses, while "take damage" is the injury you receive after all defenses are applied. While the vest's text initially sounds like it's directly reducing the ability damage taken, the essentia section indicates that the amount of ability damage taken is only reduced because you subtract the vest's defensive amount from the ability damage you've been dealt. The reason this is important is that Body Fuel works by having you take ability damage, rather than by dealing ability damage to you, so a defense that subtracts from the ability damage dealt is not effective at mitigating its result. Body Fuel also establishes a proportional relationship between the amount of ability damage you take (rather than are dealt) and the number of power points you gain, so taking 0 ability damage would produce a proportional number of power points (you would gain 0 power points).
#13 darioth Jul 01, 2011 10:33:22	I see your reasoning but it depends only on two keywords I'm not sure truly exist. I personally think that there is not defference between the phrases "you are dealt damage" and "you take damage" in any situation and to for someone to suggest that I would need raw that either adresses that directly or clarifies it in some way. I don't thing that anything like this exist because the texts on powers are not writen in such a strict manner. I may be wrong though so do you have a definite source to make apparent the mechanical deference of dealt-take? If not you may consider your answer RAI but not RAW.
#14 Tempest_Stormwind Jul 01, 2011 18:11:10	Can we at least agree Naberius won't work on Body Fuel? There's many places where he will - wonderful little vestige that he is - but ability burn is not one of them. I see your reasoning but it depends only on two keywords I'm not sure truly exist. I personally think that there is not defference between the phrases "you are dealt damage" and "you take damage" in any situation and to for someone to suggest that I would need raw that either adresses that directly or clarifies it in some way. I don't thing that anything like this exist because the texts on powers are not writen in such a strict manner. I may be wrong though so do you have a definite source to make apparent the mechanical deference of dealt-take? If not you may consider your answer RAI but not RAW. Slagger alread covered RAW - on both deal/take arguments, and the ratio of damage taken to power points gained. 3e does not use keywords the way 4th does - it relies on basic English in a few places. (For instance, it never says that a dead character can take no actions, and there are no rules about sleeping except as far as recovering spells is concerned.) Here's the most basic example of why "take" is so important here. Poison When a character takes damage from an attack with a poisoned weapon, touches an item smeared with contact poison, consumes poisoned food or drink, or is otherwise poisoned, he must make a Fortitude saving throw... So poison kicks in when the character takes damage from a poisoned weapon. But...note that if I reduce that damage to zero (say, through damage reduction), I'm not actually poisoned. By analogy, Body Fuel restores power points whenever I take the ability burn, but since the Strongheart Vest reduces that to zero, I'm not actually regaining power points. Unless you deliberately burn more than the vest prevents (say, burning 2 points of everything) - but in that case, the Body Fuel feat itself tells you how many power points you recover... and it's 2 per point taken (and if you burn 2 points but prevent 1, you only take 1 point of burn).
#15 Slagger_the_Chuul Jul 01, 2011 19:26:49	I personally think that there is not defference between the phrases "you are dealt damage" and "you take damage" For the terms "deal damage" and "take damage" I suggest you refer to the glossary in the back of your Player's Handbook.
#16 darioth Jul 02, 2011 11:32:43	Can we at least agree Naberius won't work on Body Fuel? There's many places where he will - wonderful little vestige that he is - but ability burn is not one of them. I see your reasoning but it depends only on two keywords I'm not sure truly exist. I personally think that there is not defference between the phrases "you are dealt damage" and "you take damage" in any situation and to for someone to suggest that I would need raw that either adresses that directly or clarifies it in some way. I don't thing that anything like this exist because the texts on powers are not writen in such a strict manner. I may be wrong though so do you have a definite source to make apparent the mechanical deference of dealt-take? If not you may consider your answer RAI but not RAW. Slagger alread covered RAW - on both deal/take arguments, and the ratio of damage taken to power points gained. 3e does not use keywords the way 4th does - it relies on basic English in a few places. (For instance, it never says that a dead character can take no actions, and there are no rules about sleeping except as far as recovering spells is concerned.) Here's the most basic example of why "take" is so important here. Poison When a character takes damage from an attack with a poisoned weapon, touches an item smeared with contact poison, consumes poisoned food or drink, or is otherwise poisoned, he must make a Fortitude saving throw... So poison kicks in when the character takes damage from a poisoned weapon. But...note that if I reduce that damage to zero (say, through damage reduction), I'm not actually poisoned. By analogy, Body Fuel restores power points whenever I take the ability burn, but since the Strongheart Vest reduces that to zero, I'm not actually regaining power points. Unless you deliberately burn more than the vest prevents (say, burning 2 points of everything) - but in that case, the Body Fuel feat itself tells you how many power points you recover... and it's 2 per point taken (and if you burn 2 points but prevent 1, you only take 1 point of burn). I don't want to dissapoint you but what you wrote proved nothing.This could just have been the way the author expressed himself and if in both cases it wrote "damage is dealt to you" it would bear the exact same meaning in a conversation. I personally think that there is not defference between the phrases "you are dealt damage" and "you take damage" For the terms "deal damage" and "take damage" I suggest you refer to the glossary in the back of your Player's Handbook. I saw the glossary and it seems you actually had RAW backing you up you should had mentioned it from the start and I would had had no objections regarding the strongheart vest.The combo actually is invalid.Then iron heart surge to delete the ability burn of body fuel (not a magical method).
#17 Tempest_Stormwind Jul 02, 2011 12:22:23	Your fighting spirit, dedication, and training allow you to overcome almost anything to defeat your enemies. When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately. You also surge with confidence and vengeance against your enemies, gaining a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls until the end of your next turn. Guess what is not a spell, effect, or other condition with a duration of 1 or more rounds. Just like you can't Surge yourself back to full hit points, you can't surge away ability damage. You COULD surge it away if it was a penalty with a duration, but since it's damage, you can't. Body Fuel is more of an OH SHI-- feat (for PCs) than a method of pure power point recovery. (It's niftier for NPCs.)
#18 darioth Jul 02, 2011 15:45:30	Your fighting spirit, dedication, and training allow you to overcome almost anything to defeat your enemies. When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately. You also surge with confidence and vengeance against your enemies, gaining a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls until the end of your next turn. Guess what is not a spell, effect, or other condition with a duration of 1 or more rounds. Just like you can't Surge yourself back to full hit points, you can't surge away ability damage. You COULD surge it away if it was a penalty with a duration, but since it's damage, you can't. Body Fuel is more of an OH SHI-- feat (for PCs) than a method of pure power point recovery. (It's niftier for NPCs.) Basically it's at each DM's discretion as damage (and ability damage) could be described as the effect of an attack,spell or anything else I'm not saying that your interpretation of the manuever is wrong but it is not objectively right as well.Personally when I DM I have a list of what is considered effect in the game just as a reference for iron heart surge and damage is among them along with ability damage,drain or burn as the effects of poisons attacks and such.I can see that there are other interpretations on this (as we don't actually 100% know what the power can do) but as the power is written it requires at least some decision making that is on a subjective level.
#19 Midnight_v Jul 02, 2011 15:58:58	Bestow Power Cost 3pp Earthpower Causes powers to cose 1pp less Linked Power Allows you to tie 2 spells together 1 manifests the next round automatically Metapower Reduces the cost of applying metapsionics to 1 power. So you basically cast a metapower modified Bestow Power, modified by link power, which because of earthpower cost a total of 2pp and nets you 4 pp.
#20 Tempest_Stormwind Jul 02, 2011 17:07:42	Your fighting spirit, dedication, and training allow you to overcome almost anything to defeat your enemies. When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately. You also surge with confidence and vengeance against your enemies, gaining a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls until the end of your next turn. Guess what is not a spell, effect, or other condition with a duration of 1 or more rounds. Just like you can't Surge yourself back to full hit points, you can't surge away ability damage. You COULD surge it away if it was a penalty with a duration, but since it's damage, you can't. Body Fuel is more of an OH SHI-- feat (for PCs) than a method of pure power point recovery. (It's niftier for NPCs.) Basically it's at each DM's discretion as damage (and ability damage) could be described as the effect of an attack,spell or anything else I'm not saying that your interpretation of the manuever is wrong but it is not objectively right as well.Personally when I DM I have a list of what is considered effect in the game just as a reference for iron heart surge and damage is among them along with ability damage,drain or burn as the effects of poisons attacks and such.I can see that there are other interpretations on this (as we don't actually 100% know what the power can do) but as the power is written it requires at least some decision making that is on a subjective level. Go ahead. Tell me the duration of damage, measured in rounds, then. And while I'm at it, compare Iron Heart Surge to Iron Heart Endurance under your ruling, and explain why Iron Heart Endurance is higher-level. Then do it again, with the understanding that damage is not something IHS can remove. It is a problematic maneuver due to poor writing, certainly, but this is one of those areas that not even the biggest rules lawyer can prove. (What next, you saying that because dead people aren't listed as being unable to take actions, you can IHS your death away?) @Midnight_V: Two issues: Minor point: Earth Power affects the cost at manifesting, which for a Bestow Power Linked Bestow Power is 3+3=6pp. For a Bestow Power Metapower Linked Bestow Power, it's 3+(3-2)=4pp. Linked Power sets its metapsionic cost to the power point cost of the power, but it's still a metapsionic cost, which is why Metapower works at all. Earth Power doesn't even look at metapsionic costs, it only looks at total costs. As such, it would only apply once - giving you costs of 5pp and 3pp for those two versions above, not 4pp and 2pp. Slightly bigger point: Due to the way it augments, Twin Power is a better bet than Linked Power, even with metapower. Linked Power's only advantage here is that it costs less to activate at first, but that benefit is not preserved as you go up in level, and it costs a LOT of extra feats to pull it off (feats that could be better spent on more general feats like Overchannel, which let Twin Power activate sooner anyway.)
#21 Midnight_v Jul 02, 2011 17:17:22	So... 3pp nets you 1pp? each turn or so? Its slow but I'm cool with that as the recharge still works at all. I'm actually interested as to the earth power checking and when, but I'm wiling to take your word for it. As for the feat investiture, I'm not going to lie, we came up with that as a psywar recharge meth, with the though Nova'ing each combat is actually worht the fighting feat loss. Might not be the case with pisons.
#22 darioth Jul 02, 2011 18:46:59	Good to go (although I had the feeling that earth power is already mentioned before in the thread so I didn't mention it) and a way to get around the feat cost is to make your psicrystal take them and then take feat leech to steal them from him.
#23 Ryoma0z Aug 24, 2011 11:00:10	Great thread Lormador I hope this disccusion can continue on because I am also looking for ways to optimize the use of power points. I was wondering has anyone tried playing around with this feat feat Psionic Rush - Prerequisite: 11th level, Psionic Augmentation class feature Benefit: When you spend an action point to take an extra action, you can reduce the cost to augment any augmentable power you use during that action by 1 power point and this lvl 22 Daily utility power Immediate Reaction Personal Trigger: An ally within 10 squares of you misses with an encounter attack power Effect: You regain 2 power points. Could also work great with Adroit Explorer and other feats/powers/paths that can great more action points.
#24 Tempest_Stormwind Aug 24, 2011 12:28:16	Great thread Lormador I hope this disccusion can continue on because I am also looking for ways to optimize the use of power points. I was wondering has anyone tried playing around with this feat feat Psionic Rush - Prerequisite: 11th level, Psionic Augmentation class feature Benefit: When you spend an action point to take an extra action, you can reduce the cost to augment any augmentable power you use during that action by 1 power point and this lvl 22 Daily utility power Immediate Reaction Personal Trigger: An ally within 10 squares of you misses with an encounter attack power Effect: You regain 2 power points. Could also work great with Adroit Explorer and other feats/powers/paths that can great more action points. Wrong editition, Ryoma0z. These are for 3.5 psionics, which operated totally differently. You'd be more interested in the 4e Character Optimization forum, not the d20 Character Optimization forum.
#25 Ryoma0z Aug 24, 2011 16:00:08	haha sorry my bad T_T been staring at the screen too long...lol
#26 lormador Apr 10, 2012 23:10:22	Save vs. deletion
#27 Tempest_Stormwind Apr 11, 2012 0:17:20	There's a couple new ones we've stumbled across in one of our weekly games. The character at the core of it all is a single-classed wilder, employing Mark of the Dauntless (Dragonmarked) for immunity to dazing from psychic enervation. That was his original motivation, but he's found some other gems since. One of them I'm not to clear on and I'll raise it later. - Say, after Lormador corrects the Astral Harvest entry. (It's about five times more efficient than the opening post says.) I know it involved essentially double-stacking Wild Surge using Linked Power. The other is the 7th level power Soul Crystal in Magic of Incarnum. Once you manifest it, it lasts for an hour per level, and you attach one of your powers known to it (you keep the power, it just copies it). You then transfer a number of power points to it equal to, I think, twice your manifester level - this isn't augmentation, so Wild Surge won't help, sadly. Anyone holding the gem can manifest the power inside as if they knew it, using the manifester level of the crystal and the crystal's power points. This is most useful as a battery - you use it at the end of the day to bank power points for the following day - but since it costs you nothing but PP that you'd normally waste to use, nothing stops you from imprinting it with Bestow Power. I know the crystal doesn't inherit your feats, but you should still be able to use them if you're the one holding the gem. (In other words, if someone wants to Twin the power inside of it, the person holding the gem needs Twin, not the person making the gem.) You can even make the gems last forever if you store them in Quintessence. Realistically I've seen this power used to great effect with Astral Constructs (basically, you hand off a few of these gems to any sentient being, like a psicrystal, and have them spend their actions summoning the constructs), including I haven't run the numbers on what it can do for you as far as Bestow Power. I know it won't be as ideal as it seems since the power points that flow into it are NOT augmentations (and thus aren't covered by Wild Surge), but while it may not be the greatest recharge method, it's certainly among the simplest. Basically, if you find yourself using just one power over and over and you really need to bank its abilities, this lets you use PP from yesterday (which would go to waste) to pay for it today, essentially letting you either Bestow Powering yourself overnight or carry through the PP from yesterday more directly (and efficiently) for specific powers you intend to manifest today. Interestingly, since your class features apply to manifesting from the crystal, you can basically Wild Surge such a manifestation as well. (If the Crystal itself was Surged, this gives you double the strength of your Wild Surge as far as ML are concerned, but not so far as the free augments are concerned. If you're level 20 and Surge +6 the crystal, then you can manifest the power it stores at ML 26... or Surge the manifestation for ML 32 with 6 free augmentation points.)
#28 lormador May 16, 2012 4:44:37	The Astral Harvest method is more efficient than I thought? Ah well. Perhaps I ought to update. It's been ages since I was on here. I return now not to simply bump the thread, but because I found another recharge method! It's very high-level and utterly savage: and it not only recharges power points, but (arguably) spells. The trick is: use Body Outside Body and Fusion. BoB will give you 1 copy / 5 caster levels of yourself. It has a brief duration, but appears to be persistable. Then you Fusion one copy into yourself: roughly doubling your power points, increasing your hit points, and possibly gaining spells (depending on the reading of BoB). From there, whatever. Perhaps more Fusions are in order. Seems like a pretty good Temporal Acceleration action, right? Swift: Temporal Acceleration for 1 round, cast Body Outside Body, copies appear and all manifest Fusion, when time returns to normal one's pretty well buffed out. Perhaps for an Arcane Strike.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

lormador

Jun 28, 2011 19:04:19

Hi, everyone. Please assist with the development of this fledgling compilation. Lately several different Psionic Power Point recharge methods have come to my attention. I'd like to collect them for those interested in such subjects.

1. Core SRD Psionics recharge. [Races of Stone relates to this method]
Requires: Wilder 3 + Torc of Power Preservation, knowledge of Bestow Power.
Method: Use Wild Surge for 2, and the Torc of Power Preservation, to manifest Bestow Power on yourself with a single augmentation, to gain 4 power points at a cost of 3 power points. There is a 10% chance of Psychic Enervation. With enough power points to start with (to avoid a series of unlucky Psychic Enervations). The expected return is +0.6 PP/manifestation (imagine doing this 10 times, 9 times you get +1 PP, and one time you lose 3 PP).

Note: One can use Earth Power from Races of Stone to substitute either the Wilder levels or the Torc of Power Preservation.

2. Earth Power + Torc of Power Preservation recharge.
Requires: Knowledge of Bestow Power, the Earth Power feat, and the item mentioned.
Method: Stand on stone and manifest Bestow Power on yourself. The Torc of Power Preservation pays 1 point for you, and Stone Power pays another. You thus gain 2 points after spending 1, and can recharge.

3. StP Erudite Mental Pinnacle recharge.
Requires: Spell-to-Power Erudite, Expanded Knowledge (Bestow Power), knowledge of Mental Pinnacle as a power.
Method: A very simple method- simply manifest Mental Pinnacle on yourself, then use Bestow Power to grant yourself the power points. The power generates more points than it costs to manifest. You can even pay 2 power points with StP Erudite to eliminate the costly material component. Yeah, Erudite is sick- but we have to play something when the other guy has a Planar Shepard, right?

4. Naberius Body Fuel trick.
Requires: ability to bind Naberius, Body Fuel feat.
Method: Another simple one, just use Body Fuel to restore your psionic power points. Naberius will heal the ability damage. Note that this method is a bit shady, in that it's not clear that 'ability burn damage' can be healed by Naberius. I don't personally think it's clear that it can't, either. It's a game, just do what's fun.

5. Dweomer of Transference + Energy Transformation Field.
Requires: Two Energy Transformation Fields with Dweomer of Transference attached to one, a targeted spell attacked to the other; creature with one at-will spell-like ability; knowledge of Bestow Power.
Method: Stand in the Energy Transformation Field with the Dweomer of Transference with the SLA creature. Have it use its SLA enough times to activate the Dweomer on you. Take a walk to the other field, and get the creature to do its thing again. When the Transformation Field casts the spell on you, the Dweomer of Transference (actually a decent defensive spell) absorbs it. The power points are temporary- so use Bestow Power.

This is kind of overkill for a power point recharge- but I'm trying to be complete. Everyone knows Energy Transformation Field is easily abused.

6. Efting Spectral Savant.
Requires: being a Spectral Savant, knowledge of the Shadow Eft power.
Method: Summon an eft, and Siphon Power it. The eft has more points than you spent to summon it in the first place.

7. Astral Harvest.
Requires: Greater Demolition Crystal, Mindfeeder weapon, knowledge of Astral Construct, knowledge of Bestow Power.
Method: If you use the XPH without errate, you can just use a Mindfeeding Dissipator weapon on an Astral Construct you've summoned. You get 1 temporary PP per critical hit, and against ectoplasmic targets- a Mindfeeding Dissipator always scores a critical hit! The errata took this away (Mindfeeder worked 1/day), but the Magic Item Compendium gave it back (unwittingly). The MIC Mindfeeder doesn't automatically critical hit Astral Constructs, and thus normally could not crit them at all. Enter the Greater Demolition Crystal. The cool part- you can give the Crystal to the rogue for combat! The Power Points from the weapon disappear quickly- so you know what to do with them. Bestow Power yourself.

Note: I am continually editing this post reflecting further developments in the thread, according to the comments of others. It may thus appear that subsequent posts are oddly pointing out problems that don't exist. This is not the case. I have simply learned from their wisdom, and updated the compilation accordingly.

Tempest_Stormwind

Jun 28, 2011 20:40:24

1. Core SRD Psionics recharge.
Requires: Wilder 1 + Torc of Power Preservation, or Wilder 3, knowledge of Bestow Power.
Method: Use Wild Surge for 1, and the Torc of Power Preservation, to manifest Bestow Power on yourself for 2 points at a cost of 1 power point. There is a 5% chance of Psychic Enervation. With enough power points to start with (to avoid a series of unlucky Psychic Enervations). The expected return of 20 manifestations is 37 points, a recharge.

Note: One can use Earth Power from Races of Stone to substitute either the Wilder level(s), or the Torc of Power Preservation.

You can't actually do this with just Wilder 1. Wild Surge provides augmentation, not manifestation, costs for free. Other related methods appear to work, though. (Arguments about the Torc in CPsi "replacing" the XPH one notwithstanding.)

3

. Naberius Body Fuel trick.

Requires: ability to bind Naberius, Body Fuel feat.
Method: Another really simple one, just use Body Fuel to restore your psionic power points. Naberius will heal the ability damage. Note that this method is a bit shady, in that it's not clear that 'ability burn damage' can be healed by Naberius.

Put me down in the "no" camp here too; if Naberius had text like Fast Healing ('just like natural healing'), I would support this.
(That said, when I was helping write the society mind, we had a problem like this come up: On a strict reading, Fast Healing only heals creatures with fast healing, so if you somehow find a way to bridge that healing around, it wouldn't heal non-fast-healers, which would add another layer of complexity to the Naberius method.)

#2 works, but the fact that it relies upon three twisted things to do speaks volumes. (People have called the StP Erudite "tier zero" for a reason. Not even the artificer can do what it can.)

Here's one you missed: The Efting Spectral Savant. Become a Spectal Savant and learn Shadow Eft. The eft appears with more power points than it costs to summon, and you can Siphon Power from them.

One that does NOT rely on CPsi isn't quite as ideal as the others but is also far, far more likely to be allowed in a game: The Astral Harvest. A Mindfeeding Dissipator weapon grants you 1 temporary PP per 5 damage dealt on a crit, and considers any successful attack against ectoplasmic targets as an automatic critical hit. They're non-stacking, and they do evaporate over time, so this trick is best used out of combat where you can summon, stab, and manifest a buff or utility power ad nauseum.
The original trick involved simply creating an astral construct to stab and leech the temporary PP, but the XPH errata changed Mindfeeder to 1/day. The MIC version changed it back to unlimited, but also says mindfeeder doesn't trigger against astral constructs (since they are immune to crits). Thankfully, it also gave us a workaround: The Greater Demolition Crystal lets you bypass construct crit immunity. And the best part is, since this is a non-combat trick, you can give the crystal to your rogue for actual combat!

lormador

Jun 28, 2011 22:33:54

Thanks for your help! I hadn't heard of either of those tricks before.

I'll update the compilation when I get some time. But let's get this right about the Wilder recharge (good catch). Wouldn't it then be possible, with Wild Surge+2 from Wilder 4, to manifest Bestow Power for 6 (one augmentation- with the Wild Surge paying for 2/3 of this cost), at a cost of 4 power points, with 1 PP then coming from the Torc of Power Preservation or Earth Power?

Then with a 10% chance of losing 3 PP (assuming either the Torc or Earth Power), and a 90% chance of gaining 1 PP, our expected return is +.6PP/manifestation.

And yeah, I know StP Erudite is a strong Tier 1. But people do play it sometimes, and I'm not really concerned with practicalities here. I just want to make a compilation of all the Power Point recharges, and Erudite certainly has this really easy one.

Regarding fast healing- there's an easy (but expensive) way to get it. Sithilar graft.

Tempest_Stormwind

Jun 29, 2011 11:25:37

Minor correction to your take on Astral Harvest: Mindfeeder grants 1 temporary power point per five points of damage the critical hit dealt, not one per hit. Similarly, while Dissipator isn't required (and is unlisted in your OP), it certainly helps, since most manifesters aren't built to score critical hits on command (and your targets don't last forever).

There's also the assorted Affinity Field tricks (anything relating to Bestow Power can be used to recharge the whole team - but the real advantage is that this will work even if the DM says you cannot use Bestow Power on yourself (charging an ally will spread to you). It just means you need to wait 14 levels later than usual to do this.), but these generally go without saying. You can also use a poor-man's version of this if you work with the psicrystals-get-feats ruling - if your psicrystal learns Hidden Talent or Wild Talent, you may be able to Bestow Power + Share Powers to double up on whatever you bestow on yourself. (Since you're targeting yourself, you transfer a number of PP to yourself up to your manifester level. That effect is shared with the psicrystal. This is different from targeting the psicrystal, where you could at most transfer 0 (for Wild Talent) or 1 (for Hidden Talent) power point per manifestation.) I've looked long and hard for a way to exploit Hidden Talent on psicrystals, but the absence of psionic classes (for either Practiced Manifeter or Manifest A Power From Another's Powers Known purposes) makes this pretty hard to do.

I should clarify that I really don't think Bestow Power should ever have been printed, or if it had, it shouldn't have been done as a power (just to avoid all of this tomfoolery), and that I flat-out refuse to ever learn it as a result. The only method I've seen that doesn't rely on templating or Bestow Power is the Astral Harvest, and that's functionally limited (temporary PP with a short duration), synergizes with physical attack damage (meaning the only class that can both manifest Astral Construct and synergize with physical damage on its own is the ardent) and requires an expensive melee weapon.

darioth

Jun 29, 2011 13:29:39

The torc of power preservation was powered down to the point it works 3 times per day in MIC so any combo relaying on it was destroyed.

Four more you forgot are the α Celebrilith calling savant(same as the efting savant but faster,available at higher levels and costing a 7th level power) β larva flayer calling savant (same as the efting savant but slower ,doable at lower levels and costs the knowledge of a lower level power) γ fuel in a vest (take body fuel and the feat that lets you shape a soulmeld found in the magic of incarnum,then take the soulmeld that looks like a vest and has the ability to reduce ability damage,note that ability burn is ability damage that doesn't heal magically but as ability damage it can be stopped before taking its toll on you) and δ the meditationist:Manifester with at least 3pp, knowing the bestow power and having the linked power and two times the metapower (bestow power) feats.First round you sit in a meditation stance (you have a reputation) and cast bestow power linked with bestow power and pay for the first and not the second manifestation that will go off the next round.Profit is 1pp/two rounds after the first or 1pp/per round after the first if you have the psionic meditation feat.

Tempest_Stormwind

Jun 29, 2011 15:34:15

The torc of power preservation was powered down to the point it works 3 times per day in MIC so any combo relaying on it was destroyed.

That's the argument I mentioned above: It also changed the price of the item pretty dramatically. Different price, different effect - some say it's actually a different item (i.e. a "lesser" torc of power preservation). I don't think it is, but then again, I think the two are actually priced reasonably appropriately as if they were.

However, as Lormandor mentioned, the Earth Power feat can be used in place of the Torc, and it isn't limited in times per day. (Instead, it costs two feats and requires you to be both focused and standing on the ground. And yet, somehow, the magic version has fewer restrictions and far more power.)

Four more you forgot are the α Celebrilith calling savant(same as the efting savant but faster,available at higher levels and costing a 7th level power) β larva flayer calling savant (same as the efting savant but slower ,doable at lower levels and costs the knowledge of a lower level power) γ fuel in a vest (take body fuel and the feat that lets you shape a soulmeld found in the magic of incarnum,then take the soulmeld that looks like a vest and has the ability to reduce ability damage,note that ability burn is ability damage that doesn't heal magically but as ability damage it can be stopped before taking its toll on you) and δ the meditationist:Manifester with at least 3pp, knowing the bestow power and having the linked power and two times the metapower (bestow power) feats.First round you sit in a meditation stance (you have a reputation) and cast bestow power linked with bestow power and pay for the first and not the second manifestation that will go off the next round.Profit is 1pp/two rounds after the first or 1pp/per round after the first if you have the psionic meditation feat.

Alpha and Beta are essentially the same thing as the Efting Savant, but remain valid options, so they could be rolled into the same discussion.

Gamma is subject to the same problem that Hellfire Warlocks have - the damage you take from Body Fuel is a cost, so if you prevent the cost, you don't get the effect. Unlike the hellfire warlock, here the rules are perfectly clear: Body Fuel says you gain the PP "by taking" 1 point of damage; the Strongheart Vest says that "any time you would take ability damage...the amount of damage is reduced by 1 point" (with extra essentia raising that limit, and the example clearly demonstrating that if it prevents all the damage, you "take" zero damage). In other words, using Body Fuel with the Strongheart Vest to prevent the damage, you "take" zero damage, and regain zero PP.
I don't have ToM with me to check the exact text on Naberius' faster ability healing; I know it works with the Hellfire Warlock since the warlock just uses ability damage (it seems no book outside of the XPH, not even CPsi, ever bothered to use Ability Burn, which is a shame). I doubt it will work for ability burn since ability burn says it cannot be magically or psionically healed, and as I recall Naberius' healing is a Supernatural ability, which is magical. (If it works "like natural healing", it might bypass it, but I doubt it.)

Delta has a bigger problem: Metapower explicitly cannot be stacked with the same metapsionic feat, so you can't pick Metapower (Linked Bestow Power) twice. Furthermore, a Metapower (Linked Bestow Power) is identical to augmenting Bestow Power one more time, but trading your psionic focus for just 2 pp (the amount that the augment would gain you). (That is, a 9th level manifester with Metapower (Linked Bestow Power) could manifest a 9pp Bestow Power, or [6pp Bestow Power]+[1pp Bestow Power] for 7pp and his psionic focus, and both would restore +6pp.) If your ML is not a multiple of 3, this will let you squeeze in one extra "augment" at the cost of your focus, but that's no different from Overchannel+Talented.

You could get a similar effect with Metapower (Twin Bestow Power), but that works out to be better on its own than when combined with Linked Power due to the extra costs involved in doing both:

Show

Calculations:
Bestow Power: 3 pp to transfer 2 pp. (Augments: +3pp to transfer +2 pp.)
Link: [Bestow Power]+[Bestow Power]: 3pp+3pp to restore 2+2pp, each augmented separately.
MetaLink: [Bestow Power]+[Meta Bestow Power]: 3pp+1pp to restore 2+2pp, each augmented separately.
Twin: Bestow Power x2: 9pp to restore 4pp. (Augments progress as: 12:8, 15:12, 18:16, and so on. At ML 24 (Wild Surge can reach this), you break even.)
MetaTwin: MetaTwin Bestow Power : 7pp to restore 4pp. (Augments progress as: 10:8, 13:12, 16:16, and so on, saving you eight levels to break even and allowing you to do a raw restore at ML 19, with 19:20.)
MetaTwin + MetaLink: [MetaTwin Bestow Power]+[Meta Bestow Power]: 8pp to restore 4+2pp, each augmented separately.

Since Twin Power augments have a 4:3 return on investment while Linked Power augments have a 2:3 return on investment, it's more efficient to augment the Twin power. Assuming you augment just the Meta Twin, the pattern of cost:benefit is:
8:6, 11:10, 14:14, 17:18, 20:22.
These each also cost you two psionic foci to perform (and requires six feats: Twin, MetaTwin, Link, MetaLink, Affinity, and Containment).

Compare with MetaTwin on its own (which this same six-feat character would be able to perform by expending only one psionic focus, and other characters can perform with only two of those six feats):
7:4, 10:8, 13:12, 16:16, 19:20

Yes, MetaTwin+MetaLink lets you break even at level 14 instead of 16, at the cost of two foci and four extra feats. However, you could replace those four feats with one (Overchannel) or zero (Wild Surge) and be able to break even at level 13 (Overchannel) or 12 (Wilder) for only a single psionic focus. Similarly, while you can turn a profit at ML 17, the Overchanneller can turn a profit at ML 16, and the wilder can turn a profit at ML 15. (Actually, Wilders come out a bit ahead, since this assumes they're not actually gaining extra PP from their surges, which of course they do, but this is a first-order estimate.)

Finally, if you use something like a Torc or Earth Power, note that it affects both of them the same way (since with Linked you aren't actually manifesting the power twice, you're shovelling its PP cost in as a metapsionic cost, which is why MetaLink works at all), and since everything here is linear (costs, gains, etc), the torc (a linear transform applied evenly to everything) doesn't actually change this relationship. It would just change the break-even points a bit, but it wouldn't change the fact that Overchannel or Wild Surge would let you do it even earlier.

I'm not sure I consider that a good trade, even factoring in the costs of Overchannel. I haven't run the numbers on Psychic Enervation.

ObsidianConspiracy

Jun 29, 2011 21:17:36

Strongheart Vest + Body Fuel

Depends on how you read things

Tempest_Stormwind

Jun 29, 2011 22:46:10

Strongheart Vest + Body Fuel

Depends on how you read things

No, not really. There's some arguments on the Hellfire Warlock (which uses different language, and I usually just suggest Naberius instead since that WILL work there while the Vest will just start arguments), but on Body Fuel, it's perfectly clear.

And I covered that above, too.

[that method] is subject to the same problem that Hellfire Warlocks have - the damage you take from Body Fuel is a cost, so if you prevent the cost, you don't get the effect. Unlike the hellfire warlock, here the rules are perfectly clear: Body Fuel says you gain the PP "by taking" 1 point of damage; the Strongheart Vest says that "any time you would take ability damage...the amount of damage is reduced by 1 point" (with extra essentia raising that limit, and the example clearly demonstrating that if it prevents all the damage, you "take" zero damage). In other words, using Body Fuel with the Strongheart Vest to prevent the damage, you "take" zero damage, and regain zero PP.
I don't have ToM with me to check the exact text on Naberius' faster ability healing; I know it works with the Hellfire Warlock since the warlock just uses ability damage (it seems no book outside of the XPH, not even CPsi, ever bothered to use Ability Burn, which is a shame). I doubt it will work for ability burn since ability burn says it cannot be magically or psionically healed, and as I recall Naberius' healing is a Supernatural ability, which is magical. (If it works "like natural healing", it might bypass it, but I doubt it.)

So, once more, Body Fuel says:

You can recover 2 power points by taking 1 point of ability burn damage to each of your three ability scores: Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution.

While the Strongheart Vest says:

any time you would take ability damage...the amount of damage is reduced by 1 point.

Therefore, you never actually take the 1 point of ability damage, so you never recover the power points. It's like saying you buy food in exchange for giving up some money, but then something reduces the amount of money you give the shop to 0, so you don't actually buy the food.

This is different from the Hellfire Warlock, which uses looser language that doesn't expressly call out the damage you take is a cost. (It just says "every time you use ths ability, you take 1 point of Constitution damage." and provides a description that strongly suggests it's a cost.) Compare to Body Fuel, where it expressly IS a cost.

I also have my ToM now, and Faster Ability Healing says this:

You heal 1 point in each damaged ability score every round, and 1 point in all drained ability scores every hour.

It has no reference to natural healing, so it's a property of the ability itself, which - as a pact ability - is supernatural. Supernatural abilities are all magical, and Body Fuel uses Ability Burn, which is like ability damage except that it cannot be magically or psionically healed. Thus, I'm forced to conclude that not even Naberius can circumvent Ability Burn.

Slagger_the_Chuul

Jun 30, 2011 0:31:23

So, once more, Body Fuel says:
You can recover 2 power points by taking 1 point of ability burn damage to each of your three ability scores: Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution.

While the Strongheart Vest says:
any time you would take ability damage...the amount of damage is reduced by 1 point.

Therefore, you never actually take the 1 point of ability damage, so you never recover the power points. It's like saying you buy food in exchange for giving up some money, but then something reduces the amount of money you give the shop to 0, so you don't actually buy the food.

That could happen in real life with a gift voucher or similiar discount.

A fairly direct comparison would be to say that a fire makes heat by burning fuel. If you reduce the amount of fuel you're burning to nothing, you don't make any heat and you don't have a fire.

#10

lormador

Jun 30, 2011 18:46:30

It goes either way with the Naberius and Body Fuel thing. It says-

Benefit: You can recover 2 power points by taking 1 point of ability burn damage to each of your three ability scores: Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution.

Ability 'burn' is a special thing, but it is still a type of damage. They probably shouldn't have written that, but they did. And although it also says that this ability burn damage is special, in that it cannot be magically or psionically healed, Naberius' healing isn't exactly either of those. It's a Supernatural ability, neither spell-like nor dispellable. It's suppressed in an antimagic field. One might read 'supernatural' as a superior variety of 'natural' healing, and another might read 'supernatural' as the opposite of 'natural' and disallow the maneuver.

The Soulmeld thing appears to me to be a far shadier maneuver, but still worthy of inclusion, because PP Recharges will always need express DM permission in the first place.

Once I work out the Twin Bestow Power, Metapower calculations myself I'll include that too. It's high quality work.

It amuses me to imagine a Scythe being used for the Astral Harvest.

#11

darioth

Jun 30, 2011 20:34:26

I think that the strongheart vest works on body fuel:there are costs on many powers and that are backlash to the user and if you prevent the costs you don't lose the the effect unless it is mentioned.Example to this is the backlass damage for the epic spells that was needed to mention that it couldn't be reduced.

You pay the cost to get the benefit,it is just reduced,like the power points you have to pay for a power while using the old version of the torc of power preservation,if you say that one happens the other happens too.

In the strongheart vest it says that whenever you take ability bamage it just reduces it by one.I still pay the cost for body fuel it nis just zero and if zero gets me nothing I have to be told that because its against the overall meaning of the text the same way it is with the torc where it is mentioned that you can't reduce the cost below one and if it didn't say that everyone with a torc would had been having at will 1st level powers at no cost.

Ah and sorry for the misinformation on the metapower I'll make amends with reminding one other recharge method using the midnight augmentation feat found in magic of incarnum.I am sleepy enough to right it now and if any other wants to write it down good otherwise I'll write it later.

#12

Slagger_the_Chuul

Jun 30, 2011 21:46:26

It goes either way with the Naberius and Body Fuel thing. It says-
Benefit: You can recover 2 power points by taking 1 point of ability burn damage to each of your three ability scores: Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution.

Ability 'burn' is a special thing, but it is still a type of damage. They probably shouldn't have written that, but they did. And although it also says that this ability burn damage is special, in that it cannot be magically or psionically healed, Naberius' healing isn't exactly either of those. It's a Supernatural ability, neither spell-like nor dispellable. It's suppressed in an antimagic field. One might read 'supernatural' as a superior variety of 'natural' healing, and another might read 'supernatural' as the opposite of 'natural' and disallow the maneuver.

Supernatural abilities are magical.

Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic.

They're not spells, but are still magical.

In the strongheart vest it says that whenever you take ability bamage it just reduces it by one.I still pay the cost for body fuel it nis just zero and if zero gets me nothing I have to be told that because its against the overall meaning of the text the same way it is with the torc where it is mentioned that you can't reduce the cost below one and if it didn't say that everyone with a torc would had been having at will 1st level powers at no cost.

Looking at the strongheart vest (and particularly it's "Essentia" section), it appears that it you take less damage because the soulmeld subtracts its protection from the damage dealt. There is a very important distinction here for mechanical purposes, because "deal damage" is something that happens before you apply defenses, while "take damage" is the injury you receive after all defenses are applied. While the vest's text initially sounds like it's directly reducing the ability damage taken, the essentia section indicates that the amount of ability damage taken is only reduced because you subtract the vest's defensive amount from the ability damage you've been dealt.

The reason this is important is that Body Fuel works by having you take ability damage, rather than by dealing ability damage to you, so a defense that subtracts from the ability damage dealt is not effective at mitigating its result. Body Fuel also establishes a proportional relationship between the amount of ability damage you take (rather than are dealt) and the number of power points you gain, so taking 0 ability damage would produce a proportional number of power points (you would gain 0 power points).

#13

darioth

Jul 01, 2011 10:33:22

I see your reasoning but it depends only on two keywords I'm not sure truly exist.
I personally think that there is not defference between the phrases "you are dealt damage" and "you take damage"
in any situation and to for someone to suggest that I would need raw that either adresses that directly or clarifies it in some way.
I don't thing that anything like this exist because the texts on powers are not writen in such a strict manner.

I may be wrong though so do you have a definite source to make apparent the mechanical deference of dealt-take?

If not you may consider your answer RAI but not RAW.

#14

Tempest_Stormwind

Jul 01, 2011 18:11:10

Can we at least agree Naberius won't work on Body Fuel? There's many places where he will - wonderful little vestige that he is - but ability burn is not one of them.

I see your reasoning but it depends only on two keywords I'm not sure truly exist.
I personally think that there is not defference between the phrases "you are dealt damage" and "you take damage"
in any situation and to for someone to suggest that I would need raw that either adresses that directly or clarifies it in some way.
I don't thing that anything like this exist because the texts on powers are not writen in such a strict manner.

I may be wrong though so do you have a definite source to make apparent the mechanical deference of dealt-take?

If not you may consider your answer RAI but not RAW.

Slagger alread covered RAW - on both deal/take arguments, and the ratio of damage taken to power points gained. 3e does not use keywords the way 4th does - it relies on basic English in a few places. (For instance, it never says that a dead character can take no actions, and there are no rules about sleeping except as far as recovering spells is concerned.)

Here's the most basic example of why "take" is so important here.

Poison

When a character takes damage from an attack with a poisoned weapon, touches an item smeared with contact poison, consumes poisoned food or drink, or is otherwise poisoned, he must make a Fortitude saving throw...

So poison kicks in when the character takes damage from a poisoned weapon. But...note that if I reduce that damage to zero (say, through damage reduction), I'm not actually poisoned.

By analogy, Body Fuel restores power points whenever I take the ability burn, but since the Strongheart Vest reduces that to zero, I'm not actually regaining power points. Unless you deliberately burn more than the vest prevents (say, burning 2 points of everything) - but in that case, the Body Fuel feat itself tells you how many power points you recover... and it's 2 per point taken (and if you burn 2 points but prevent 1, you only take 1 point of burn).

#15

Slagger_the_Chuul

Jul 01, 2011 19:26:49

I personally think that there is not defference between the phrases "you are dealt damage" and "you take damage"

For the terms "deal damage" and "take damage" I suggest you refer to the glossary in the back of your Player's Handbook.

#16

darioth

Jul 02, 2011 11:32:43

Can we at least agree Naberius won't work on Body Fuel? There's many places where he will - wonderful little vestige that he is - but ability burn is not one of them.

I see your reasoning but it depends only on two keywords I'm not sure truly exist.
I personally think that there is not defference between the phrases "you are dealt damage" and "you take damage"
in any situation and to for someone to suggest that I would need raw that either adresses that directly or clarifies it in some way.
I don't thing that anything like this exist because the texts on powers are not writen in such a strict manner.

I may be wrong though so do you have a definite source to make apparent the mechanical deference of dealt-take?

If not you may consider your answer RAI but not RAW.

Slagger alread covered RAW - on both deal/take arguments, and the ratio of damage taken to power points gained. 3e does not use keywords the way 4th does - it relies on basic English in a few places. (For instance, it never says that a dead character can take no actions, and there are no rules about sleeping except as far as recovering spells is concerned.)

Here's the most basic example of why "take" is so important here.

Poison

When a character takes damage from an attack with a poisoned weapon, touches an item smeared with contact poison, consumes poisoned food or drink, or is otherwise poisoned, he must make a Fortitude saving throw...

So poison kicks in when the character takes damage from a poisoned weapon. But...note that if I reduce that damage to zero (say, through damage reduction), I'm not actually poisoned.

By analogy, Body Fuel restores power points whenever I take the ability burn, but since the Strongheart Vest reduces that to zero, I'm not actually regaining power points. Unless you deliberately burn more than the vest prevents (say, burning 2 points of everything) - but in that case, the Body Fuel feat itself tells you how many power points you recover... and it's 2 per point taken (and if you burn 2 points but prevent 1, you only take 1 point of burn).

I don't want to dissapoint you but what you wrote proved nothing.This could just have been the way the author expressed himself and if in both cases it wrote "damage is dealt to you" it would bear the exact same meaning in a conversation.

I personally think that there is not defference between the phrases "you are dealt damage" and "you take damage"

For the terms "deal damage" and "take damage" I suggest you refer to the glossary in the back of your Player's Handbook.

I saw the glossary and it seems you actually had RAW backing you up you should had mentioned it from the start and I would had had no objections regarding the strongheart vest.The combo actually is invalid.Then iron heart surge to delete the ability burn of body fuel (not a magical method).

#17

Tempest_Stormwind

Jul 02, 2011 12:22:23

Your fighting spirit, dedication, and training allow you to overcome almost anything to defeat your enemies. When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately. You also surge with confidence and vengeance against your enemies, gaining a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls until the end of your next turn.

Guess what is not a spell, effect, or other condition with a duration of 1 or more rounds.

Just like you can't Surge yourself back to full hit points, you can't surge away ability damage. You COULD surge it away if it was a penalty with a duration, but since it's damage, you can't.

Body Fuel is more of an OH SHI-- feat (for PCs) than a method of pure power point recovery. (It's niftier for NPCs.)

#18

darioth

Jul 02, 2011 15:45:30

Your fighting spirit, dedication, and training allow you to overcome almost anything to defeat your enemies. When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately. You also surge with confidence and vengeance against your enemies, gaining a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls until the end of your next turn.

Guess what is not a spell, effect, or other condition with a duration of 1 or more rounds.

Just like you can't Surge yourself back to full hit points, you can't surge away ability damage. You COULD surge it away if it was a penalty with a duration, but since it's damage, you can't.

Body Fuel is more of an OH SHI-- feat (for PCs) than a method of pure power point recovery. (It's niftier for NPCs.)

Basically it's at each DM's discretion as damage (and ability damage) could be described as the effect of an attack,spell or anything else I'm not saying that your interpretation of the manuever is wrong but it is not objectively right as well.Personally when I DM I have a list of what is considered effect in the game just as a reference for iron heart surge and damage is among them along with ability damage,drain or burn as the effects of poisons attacks and such.I can see that there are other interpretations on this (as we don't actually 100% know what the power can do) but as the power is written it requires at least some decision making that is on a subjective level.

#19

Midnight_v

Jul 02, 2011 15:58:58

Bestow Power
Cost 3pp
Earthpower
Causes powers to cose 1pp less
Linked Power
Allows you to tie 2 spells together 1 manifests the next round automatically
Metapower
Reduces the cost of applying metapsionics  to 1 power.

So you basically cast a metapower modified Bestow Power, modified by link power, which because of earthpower cost a total of 2pp and nets you 4 pp.

#20

Tempest_Stormwind

Jul 02, 2011 17:07:42

Your fighting spirit, dedication, and training allow you to overcome almost anything to defeat your enemies. When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately. You also surge with confidence and vengeance against your enemies, gaining a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls until the end of your next turn.

Guess what is not a spell, effect, or other condition with a duration of 1 or more rounds.

Just like you can't Surge yourself back to full hit points, you can't surge away ability damage. You COULD surge it away if it was a penalty with a duration, but since it's damage, you can't.

Body Fuel is more of an OH SHI-- feat (for PCs) than a method of pure power point recovery. (It's niftier for NPCs.)

Basically it's at each DM's discretion as damage (and ability damage) could be described as the effect of an attack,spell or anything else I'm not saying that your interpretation of the manuever is wrong but it is not objectively right as well.Personally when I DM I have a list of what is considered effect in the game just as a reference for iron heart surge and damage is among them along with ability damage,drain or burn as the effects of poisons attacks and such.I can see that there are other interpretations on this (as we don't actually 100% know what the power can do) but as the power is written it requires at least some decision making that is on a subjective level.

Go ahead. Tell me the duration of damage, measured in rounds, then.

And while I'm at it, compare Iron Heart Surge to Iron Heart Endurance under your ruling, and explain why Iron Heart Endurance is higher-level. Then do it again, with the understanding that damage is not something IHS can remove.

It is a problematic maneuver due to poor writing, certainly, but this is one of those areas that not even the biggest rules lawyer can prove. (What next, you saying that because dead people aren't listed as being unable to take actions, you can IHS your death away?)

@Midnight_V:
Two issues:

Minor point: Earth Power affects the cost at manifesting, which for a Bestow Power Linked Bestow Power is 3+3=6pp. For a Bestow Power Metapower Linked Bestow Power, it's 3+(3-2)=4pp. Linked Power sets its metapsionic cost to the power point cost of the power, but it's still a metapsionic cost, which is why Metapower works at all. Earth Power doesn't even look at metapsionic costs, it only looks at total costs. As such, it would only apply once - giving you costs of 5pp and 3pp for those two versions above, not 4pp and 2pp.

Slightly bigger point: Due to the way it augments, Twin Power is a better bet than Linked Power, even with metapower. Linked Power's only advantage here is that it costs less to activate at first, but that benefit is not preserved as you go up in level, and it costs a LOT of extra feats to pull it off (feats that could be better spent on more general feats like Overchannel, which let Twin Power activate sooner anyway.)

#21

Midnight_v

Jul 02, 2011 17:17:22

So... 3pp nets you 1pp? each turn or so? Its slow but I'm cool with that as the recharge still works at all.
I'm actually interested as to the earth power checking and when, but I'm wiling to take your word for it.

As for the feat investiture, I'm not going to lie, we came up with that as a psywar recharge meth, with the though Nova'ing each combat is actually worht the fighting feat loss. Might not be the case with pisons.

#22

darioth

Jul 02, 2011 18:46:59

Good to go (although I had the feeling that earth power is already mentioned before in the thread so I didn't mention it) and a way to get around the feat cost is to make your psicrystal take them and then take feat leech to steal them from him.

#23

Ryoma0z

Aug 24, 2011 11:00:10

Great thread Lormador I hope this disccusion can continue on because I am also looking for ways to optimize the use of power points. I was wondering has anyone tried playing around with this feat feat Psionic Rush - Prerequisite: 11th level, Psionic Augmentation class feature
Benefit: When you spend an action point to take an extra action, you can reduce the cost to augment any augmentable power you use during that action by 1 power point and this lvl 22 Daily utility power Immediate Reaction Personal Trigger: An ally within 10 squares of you misses with an encounter attack power Effect: You regain 2 power points. Could also work great with Adroit Explorer and other feats/powers/paths that can great more action points.

#24

Tempest_Stormwind

Aug 24, 2011 12:28:16

Great thread Lormador I hope this disccusion can continue on because I am also looking for ways to optimize the use of power points. I was wondering has anyone tried playing around with this feat feat Psionic Rush - Prerequisite: 11th level, Psionic Augmentation class feature
Benefit: When you spend an action point to take an extra action, you can reduce the cost to augment any augmentable power you use during that action by 1 power point and this lvl 22 Daily utility power Immediate Reaction Personal Trigger: An ally within 10 squares of you misses with an encounter attack power Effect: You regain 2 power points. Could also work great with Adroit Explorer and other feats/powers/paths that can great more action points.

Wrong editition, Ryoma0z. These are for 3.5 psionics, which operated totally differently. You'd be more interested in the 4e Character Optimization forum, not the d20 Character Optimization forum.

#25

Ryoma0z

Aug 24, 2011 16:00:08

haha sorry my bad T_T been staring at the screen too long...lol

#26

lormador

Apr 10, 2012 23:10:22

Save vs. deletion

#27

Tempest_Stormwind

Apr 11, 2012 0:17:20

There's a couple new ones we've stumbled across in one of our weekly games.

The character at the core of it all is a single-classed wilder, employing Mark of the Dauntless (Dragonmarked) for immunity to dazing from psychic enervation. That was his original motivation, but he's found some other gems since.

One of them I'm not to clear on and I'll raise it later. - Say, after Lormador corrects the Astral Harvest entry. (It's about five times more efficient than the opening post says.) I know it involved essentially double-stacking Wild Surge using Linked Power.

The other is the 7th level power Soul Crystal in Magic of Incarnum. Once you manifest it, it lasts for an hour per level, and you attach one of your powers known to it (you keep the power, it just copies it). You then transfer a number of power points to it equal to, I think, twice your manifester level - this isn't augmentation, so Wild Surge won't help, sadly. Anyone holding the gem can manifest the power inside as if they knew it, using the manifester level of the crystal and the crystal's power points. This is most useful as a battery - you use it at the end of the day to bank power points for the following day - but since it costs you nothing but PP that you'd normally waste to use, nothing stops you from imprinting it with Bestow Power. I know the crystal doesn't inherit your feats, but you should still be able to use them if you're the one holding the gem. (In other words, if someone wants to Twin the power inside of it, the person holding the gem needs Twin, not the person making the gem.) You can even make the gems last forever if you store them in Quintessence.

Realistically I've seen this power used to great effect with Astral Constructs (basically, you hand off a few of these gems to any sentient being, like a psicrystal, and have them spend their actions summoning the constructs), including I haven't run the numbers on what it can do for you as far as Bestow Power. I know it won't be as ideal as it seems since the power points that flow into it are NOT augmentations (and thus aren't covered by Wild Surge), but while it may not be the greatest recharge method, it's certainly among the simplest. Basically, if you find yourself using just one power over and over and you really need to bank its abilities, this lets you use PP from yesterday (which would go to waste) to pay for it today, essentially letting you either Bestow Powering yourself overnight or carry through the PP from yesterday more directly (and efficiently) for specific powers you intend to manifest today. Interestingly, since your class features apply to manifesting from the crystal, you can basically Wild Surge such a manifestation as well. (If the Crystal itself was Surged, this gives you double the strength of your Wild Surge as far as ML are concerned, but not so far as the free augments are concerned. If you're level 20 and Surge +6 the crystal, then you can manifest the power it stores at ML 26... or Surge the manifestation for ML 32 with 6 free augmentation points.)

#28

lormador

May 16, 2012 4:44:37

The Astral Harvest method is more efficient than I thought? Ah well. Perhaps I ought to update. It's been ages since I was on here.

I return now not to simply bump the thread, but because I found another recharge method! It's very high-level and utterly savage: and it not only recharges power points, but (arguably) spells.

The trick is: use Body Outside Body and Fusion. BoB will give you 1 copy / 5 caster levels of yourself. It has a brief duration, but appears to be persistable. Then you Fusion one copy into yourself: roughly doubling your power points, increasing your hit points, and possibly gaining spells (depending on the reading of BoB). From there, whatever. Perhaps more Fusions are in order.

Seems like a pretty good Temporal Acceleration action, right? Swift: Temporal Acceleration for 1 round, cast Body Outside Body, copies appear and all manifest Fusion, when time returns to normal one's pretty well buffed out. Perhaps for an Arcane Strike.