Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 majesticpyre Mar 04, 2013 17:30:02	Help! I need to figure out the rules on this subject. Imagine that I am playing a rogue who has had Blur cast on him, effectively giving him constant concealment. We are in the middle of a pitched battle against, lets say a troll, in your average dungeon room. Someone is holding a torch, so there is some light. I have previously attacked the troll. Ok, so assume all that. On my turn, I move half my speed, and make a hide check. Do I take any minuses? Assuming that I roll well enough and succeed, I shoot that troll with my bow, applying my sneak attack damage. Next turn, I once again move half my speed, and make a hide check. Do I take any minuses? Thanks in advance for the help.
#2 Tempest_Stormwind Mar 04, 2013 19:03:40	Help! I need to figure out the rules on this subject. Imagine that I am playing a rogue who has had Blur cast on him, effectively giving him constant concealment. We are in the middle of a pitched battle against, lets say a troll, in your average dungeon room. Someone is holding a torch, so there is some light. I have previously attacked the troll. Ok, so assume all that. On my turn, I move half my speed, and make a hide check. Do I take any minuses? You can't actually make the check. Hide checks require two things: something to hide behind (concealment provides this requirement) and no one looking at you: If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went. You'll note that these restictions correspond, respectively, to what the Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight abilities allow you to bypass (although some versions of HiPS only work if you're in situations where you probably have concealment already - the shadowdancer's only works in darkness, for instance, which usually provides concealment). In this case, trying to hide with Blur is like hiding with Camouflage but without Hide in Plain Sight - that is, kind of like hiding from others by pulling a blanket over your head. You've still got concealment, but they know exactly where you are - in effect the check does nothing. You'll need to break line of sight, however briefly, to make this check. The simplest (though probably not the best) way to do this without some form of cover is to use Bluff to create a diversion ("Hey, look over there, a three-headed monkey!"). If you can interrupt line of sight by any means, you can hide in the concealment provided by Blur. An example of a spell that allows you to hide even if someone's looking at you is not Blur, but rather Nightmare Terrain (Complete Mage). Some illusions can also create obstacles, but these always work off of both blocking line of sight and providing something (intangible) to hide behind. Assuming that I roll well enough and succeed, I shoot that troll with my bow, applying my sneak attack damage. Next turn, I once again move half my speed, and make a hide check. Do I take any minuses? See above. Exactly the same reasoning applies. The fact that you attacked doesn't change anything. If you do start from a hidden position, attacking will give away that position, though. That's what the Sniping use of the Hide skill is for - it in effect not only diverts attention away from your attack, it re-breaks line of sight despite you attacking. (Sadly, very very very few things in the game were ever written to interact with it specifically; only the Woodland Archer tactical feat comes to mind. It doesn't reduce the penalty, but it allows you to move around before you re-hide, as part of the same move action needed to hide during sniping.)
Hide majesticpyre Mar 04, 2013 19:19:21	Ok... I think I am beginning to get it. Thanks Tempest. Ok, so follow up question: Creating a Diversion to Hide You can use the Bluff skill to help you hide. A successful Bluff check gives you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Hide check while people are aware of you. This usage does not provoke an attack of opportunity. What am I rolling against? Is this a bluff check against a Sense Motive Check from everyone who can see me? So if any of my opponent's beat me, I fail?
Hide Tempest_Stormwind Mar 04, 2013 19:37:30	Ok... I think I am beginning to get it. Thanks Tempest. Ok, so follow up question: Creating a Diversion to Hide You can use the Bluff skill to help you hide. A successful Bluff check gives you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Hide check while people are aware of you. This usage does not provoke an attack of opportunity. What am I rolling against? Is this a bluff check against a Sense Motive Check from everyone who can see me? So if any of my opponent's beat me, I fail? Yes to all of your questions. Right from the top of the Bluff description, you see that Bluff always opposes Sense Motive, and that Create a Diversion is not against a particular target. You're thus making Bluff vs the Sense Motive of anyone and everyone who you want to distract, and if any one of them succeeds ("Yeah, yeah, I know, a three-headed monkey. Pull the other one.") then line of sight isn't broken. Hide itself is really hard to use in open combat without employing some magic. Blur may not end when you attack, but Invisibility allows you to break line of sight (kind of by definition). However, if you're in a twisty maze of little passages, all alike, Hide can be used to great effect, particularly by DMs. (The feats required to make this really mean, such as Spring Attack and related feats, are kind of expensive to grab for PCs.)
#5 majesticpyre Mar 04, 2013 19:39:18	Ok. Cool. At least I know how to apply the rules now. Thx Tempest.