Concept Build Help Please! - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Concept Build Help Please!

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
solis_bjorn
Mar 16, 2011 21:32:17 Ok, looks like the character I'm running right now might end up dead so I'm starting to toss back-up character ideas around in my head. I'm dig'n on the Pyro PRC from the EPH and his fire lash ability got me thinking whips (or specifically whip-daggers as normal whips rather suck). I'm a fan of the 'if one is good, two is better' concept so now it's TWF w/whip-daggers, but how?!

I picked up the pdf about whips for access to the Melee Lash (+ Imp, Greater versions) Feat to allow the whip to threaten in 5', 10' and 15' increments in accordance with the feats. I'll need a psionic class (or race I guess, or any race with Hidden Talent feat) for entry into the PRC, and TWF feat tree. Do I need Oversized TWF to duel wield whips? I believe so but not sure.

So not knowing any ability scores I know I need good Dex for TWF, good Cha for Pyro's abilities Save DCs and of course Str, Con, and Wis are always good to have, and no negative mod on Int would help...

So here's what I'm thinking;
Lesser Aasimar for +Wis/Cha (...yeah I know the lesser outsiders are cheese but our DM allows them so), darkvision and resistances are icing on the cake.

mighty whip-daggers to add str damage

for the build, Ranger 4 (wild champion variant for extra feats at 4th level and no spell casting) which is full BAB and has concentration as a class skill for PRC prereqs, Psychic Warrior 1 for feat and fulfilling the entry requirements to the PRC, Fighter 2 for two feats and BAB. Pyro 10, anything else to 20 (the build only needs to go to 8 right now, but I like to plan ahead).

1: Ranger 1 (w/2 flaws): hidden talent, exotic weapon prof, melee lash 5'
2: Ranger 2: TWF
3:  Fighter 1: oversized TWF, weapon finesse (high dex goes into attack- any str bonus added to damage from mighty whips)
4: Fighter 2: weapon focus (whip)
5: Ranger 3: endurance
6: Ranger 4: improved TWF, combat reflexes
7: PsyWar 1: improved melee lash 10'
8-17 Pyro!!
18-20 ??

Would point blank shot apply to whips? says using them provokes AoO's like using a ranged weapon... the extra +1/+1 from PBS would be nice as the whip only extends to 15' anyhow...

Anyhow, I know this got long, sorry, but any help, pointers, tips, tricks or better ideas any of you can see to pull this off would be appreciated!!

Thanks in advance!
#2
sleepyshadow
Mar 17, 2011 11:12:59 lvl 18: PsyWar 2: Improved Trip, Power Attack
lvl 19: Psy War 3
lvl 20: Lion Totem Barbarian (For pounce and rage)

Just my 2 cp. Take em or leave em.
#3
Tempest_Stormwind
Mar 17, 2011 11:44:41 Sorry to rain on the parade, but Fire Lash probably can't be used twice at once. ("The rules don't say I can't" isn't a good reason.)

Similarly, it isn't based on your level or anything, and can't be directly enhanced, so all you need is a single level of Pyrokineticist and that's as good as it will ever get.

Finally, technically speaking, although you it looks like a whip, and can activate whip feats, it is really a ranged touch attack, and follows those rules for how it interacts with the rest of the game.

Would point blank shot apply to whips? says using them provokes AoO's like using a ranged weapon... the extra +1/+1 from PBS would be nice as the whip only extends to 15' anyhow...

No.
SRD: "the whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don’t threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes). Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon."

Therefore, it's a MELEE weapon, that (as an exception to melee weapon rules) doesn't threaten, and provokes AoOs. It is NOT a ranged weapon and cannot benefit from Point Blank Shot.

(In 3e they were ranged weapons with a maximum range, but that prevented them from interacting with melee weapon feats. This approach works a lot nicer.)
#4
solis_bjorn
Mar 17, 2011 12:00:14
lvl 18: PsyWar 2: Improved Trip, Power Attack
lvl 19: Psy War 3
lvl 20: Lion Totem Barbarian (For pounce and rage)

Just my 2 cp. Take em or leave em.

I actually love the Lion Totem Barbarian (w/whirling frenzy) and so far have used a one level dip into Barb for that reason on nearly every build I have... I was trying to break away from that but may do it at 20 like you suggest, would be good to have then. I planned on picking up Improved Trip/Combat Expertise by 12, but definately need Imp. Trip with a whip build!

Thanks for the reply!
#5
solis_bjorn
Mar 17, 2011 12:04:39
Sorry to rain on the parade, but Fire Lash probably can't be used twice at once. ("The rules don't say I can't" isn't a good reason.)...

Oh, I plan on using two whip-daggers, it was only the fire lash ability that got me thinking whips and the fact that I've never used them made me curious what I could do. I really like the rest of the pyro's abilities, especially the 9th and 10th level ones - hence the need for high Cha.

(In 3e they were ranged weapons with a maximum range, but that prevented them from interacting with melee weapon feats. This approach works a lot nicer.)

That's what I was thinking of! Hmm, I actually perfer the 3e verson better myself.

Thanks!
#6
Tempest_Stormwind
Mar 17, 2011 13:01:48 Wait, I just noticed you had feats that let the whip threaten... what's your source on those?

If you're using whip-daggers, you can do some INCREDIBLE lock-down effects. Look into the Crusader and Psychic Warrior. The crusader can get you Thicket of Blades (every movement, even Withdraws and 5' steps, provokes AoOs from you), the psywar has powers to improve AoOs, and you can use the Stand Still feat to prevent any actual movement out of that square.
#7
solis_bjorn
Mar 17, 2011 17:36:44
Wait, I just noticed you had feats that let the whip threaten... what's your source on those?

If you're using whip-daggers, you can do some INCREDIBLE lock-down effects. Look into the Crusader and Psychic Warrior. The crusader can get you Thicket of Blades (every movement, even Withdraws and 5' steps, provokes AoOs from you), the psywar has powers to improve AoOs, and you can use the Stand Still feat to prevent any actual movement out of that square.

It's a third party PDF called ENArsenal_Whips, 26 pages of all whip related weapons, feats and PRCs (only a few of each but the feat section is what held the gold; the Melee Lash feat chain. Was only a $1 for the pdf download. The improved and greater versions of the feat have higher Dex and BAB prereq's and only extend the threaten range by 5' per feat - but, for 3 feats I think it's worth it!

The effeciency of a whip build is totally dependant on these feats (in my opinion), but subject to DM ruling on allowing 3rd party material =/

Melee Lash [Fighter]
You threaten the area around you with a whip.
Prerequisite: Dex 15, Exotic Weapon Proficiency(whip), base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When armed with a whip or other whip-like weapon, you threaten an area around you equal to your normal unarmed reach. You can make attacks of opportunity with the whip within that area. Additionally, you don't incur attacks of opportunity by using a whip in combat, or by any other use of a whip, such as with the Third Hand feat.
Normal: A whip has 15-ft. reach, but does not threaten that area. Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.

#8
Tempest_Stormwind
Mar 17, 2011 18:57:41
Wait, I just noticed you had feats that let the whip threaten... what's your source on those?

If you're using whip-daggers, you can do some INCREDIBLE lock-down effects. Look into the Crusader and Psychic Warrior. The crusader can get you Thicket of Blades (every movement, even Withdraws and 5' steps, provokes AoOs from you), the psywar has powers to improve AoOs, and you can use the Stand Still feat to prevent any actual movement out of that square.

It's a third party PDF called ENArsenal_Whips, 26 pages of all whip related weapons, feats and PRCs (only a few of each but the feat section is what held the gold; the Melee Lash feat chain. Was only a $1 for the pdf download. The improved and greater versions of the feat have higher Dex and BAB prereq's and only extend the threaten range by 5' per feat - but, for 3 feats I think it's worth it!

The effeciency of a whip build is totally dependant on these feats (in my opinion), but subject to DM ruling on allowing 3rd party material =/

Melee Lash [Fighter]
You threaten the area around you with a whip.
Prerequisite: Dex 15, Exotic Weapon Proficiency(whip), base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When armed with a whip or other whip-like weapon, you threaten an area around you equal to your normal unarmed reach. You can make attacks of opportunity with the whip within that area. Additionally, you don't incur attacks of opportunity by using a whip in combat, or by any other use of a whip, such as with the Third Hand feat.
Normal: A whip has 15-ft. reach, but does not threaten that area. Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.

Ah, third-party. That's generally frowned upon.

An alternative is the 3.0 Lasher PrC, which to my knowledge was never updated. It's in Sword and Fist and shouldn't be too hard to track down. It granted a similar ability with a 1-level dip, and continued to progress adding extra whip attacks and stunning abilities as it went along. It wasn't the best designed, but if your GM vetos 3rd party material, it's an alternative.

Similarly, there's also a whip-related skill trick in Complete Adventurer, letting you use it as a grappling hook.
#9
solis_bjorn
Mar 17, 2011 19:14:31 Yeah, we typically don't allow third party stuff, but for things like this we take a group vote. We came up with one feat that offset the buckler's penalty to hit - the guy who petitioned for it figured it was worth a feat to gain his hit bonus back while using the buckler and a 2hand sword, and we all agreed.

I don't feel these whip feats are too bad - you have to spend 4 feats to do what a spiked chain fighter can do for 1 (proficiency...) and you only gain 5' more of reach by the end of it - the last feat requires 19 Dex and BAB +11... stays fairly balanced.

I've looked at the Lasher PRC, wasn't impressed by the funny entry requirements or the PRC as a whole. That 1-lvl dip into Lasher is the only other way to gain being able to threaten with a whip up to your unarmed reach that I could find - though in 3.0 they considered the whip a ranged weapon =P

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 solis_bjorn Mar 16, 2011 21:32:17	Ok, looks like the character I'm running right now might end up dead so I'm starting to toss back-up character ideas around in my head. I'm dig'n on the Pyro PRC from the EPH and his fire lash ability got me thinking whips (or specifically whip-daggers as normal whips rather suck). I'm a fan of the 'if one is good, two is better' concept so now it's TWF w/whip-daggers, but how?! I picked up the pdf about whips for access to the Melee Lash (+ Imp, Greater versions) Feat to allow the whip to threaten in 5', 10' and 15' increments in accordance with the feats. I'll need a psionic class (or race I guess, or any race with Hidden Talent feat) for entry into the PRC, and TWF feat tree. Do I need Oversized TWF to duel wield whips? I believe so but not sure. So not knowing any ability scores I know I need good Dex for TWF, good Cha for Pyro's abilities Save DCs and of course Str, Con, and Wis are always good to have, and no negative mod on Int would help... So here's what I'm thinking; Lesser Aasimar for +Wis/Cha (...yeah I know the lesser outsiders are cheese but our DM allows them so), darkvision and resistances are icing on the cake. mighty whip-daggers to add str damage for the build, Ranger 4 (wild champion variant for extra feats at 4th level and no spell casting) which is full BAB and has concentration as a class skill for PRC prereqs, Psychic Warrior 1 for feat and fulfilling the entry requirements to the PRC, Fighter 2 for two feats and BAB. Pyro 10, anything else to 20 (the build only needs to go to 8 right now, but I like to plan ahead). 1: Ranger 1 (w/2 flaws): hidden talent, exotic weapon prof, melee lash 5' 2: Ranger 2: TWF 3: Fighter 1: oversized TWF, weapon finesse (high dex goes into attack- any str bonus added to damage from mighty whips) 4: Fighter 2: weapon focus (whip) 5: Ranger 3: endurance 6: Ranger 4: improved TWF, combat reflexes 7: PsyWar 1: improved melee lash 10' 8-17 Pyro!! 18-20 ?? Would point blank shot apply to whips? says using them provokes AoO's like using a ranged weapon... the extra +1/+1 from PBS would be nice as the whip only extends to 15' anyhow... Anyhow, I know this got long, sorry, but any help, pointers, tips, tricks or better ideas any of you can see to pull this off would be appreciated!! Thanks in advance!
#2 sleepyshadow Mar 17, 2011 11:12:59	lvl 18: PsyWar 2: Improved Trip, Power Attack lvl 19: Psy War 3 lvl 20: Lion Totem Barbarian (For pounce and rage) Just my 2 cp. Take em or leave em.
#3 Tempest_Stormwind Mar 17, 2011 11:44:41	Sorry to rain on the parade, but Fire Lash probably can't be used twice at once. ("The rules don't say I can't" isn't a good reason.) Similarly, it isn't based on your level or anything, and can't be directly enhanced, so all you need is a single level of Pyrokineticist and that's as good as it will ever get. Finally, technically speaking, although you it looks like a whip, and can activate whip feats, it is really a ranged touch attack, and follows those rules for how it interacts with the rest of the game. Would point blank shot apply to whips? says using them provokes AoO's like using a ranged weapon... the extra +1/+1 from PBS would be nice as the whip only extends to 15' anyhow... No. SRD: "the whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don’t threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes). Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon." Therefore, it's a MELEE weapon, that (as an exception to melee weapon rules) doesn't threaten, and provokes AoOs. It is NOT a ranged weapon and cannot benefit from Point Blank Shot. (In 3e they were ranged weapons with a maximum range, but that prevented them from interacting with melee weapon feats. This approach works a lot nicer.)
#4 solis_bjorn Mar 17, 2011 12:00:14	lvl 18: PsyWar 2: Improved Trip, Power Attack lvl 19: Psy War 3 lvl 20: Lion Totem Barbarian (For pounce and rage) Just my 2 cp. Take em or leave em. I actually love the Lion Totem Barbarian (w/whirling frenzy) and so far have used a one level dip into Barb for that reason on nearly every build I have... I was trying to break away from that but may do it at 20 like you suggest, would be good to have then. I planned on picking up Improved Trip/Combat Expertise by 12, but definately need Imp. Trip with a whip build! Thanks for the reply!
#5 solis_bjorn Mar 17, 2011 12:04:39	Sorry to rain on the parade, but Fire Lash probably can't be used twice at once. ("The rules don't say I can't" isn't a good reason.)... Oh, I plan on using two whip-daggers, it was only the fire lash ability that got me thinking whips and the fact that I've never used them made me curious what I could do. I really like the rest of the pyro's abilities, especially the 9th and 10th level ones - hence the need for high Cha. (In 3e they were ranged weapons with a maximum range, but that prevented them from interacting with melee weapon feats. This approach works a lot nicer.) That's what I was thinking of! Hmm, I actually perfer the 3e verson better myself. Thanks!
#6 Tempest_Stormwind Mar 17, 2011 13:01:48	Wait, I just noticed you had feats that let the whip threaten... what's your source on those? If you're using whip-daggers, you can do some INCREDIBLE lock-down effects. Look into the Crusader and Psychic Warrior. The crusader can get you Thicket of Blades (every movement, even Withdraws and 5' steps, provokes AoOs from you), the psywar has powers to improve AoOs, and you can use the Stand Still feat to prevent any actual movement out of that square.
#7 solis_bjorn Mar 17, 2011 17:36:44	Wait, I just noticed you had feats that let the whip threaten... what's your source on those? If you're using whip-daggers, you can do some INCREDIBLE lock-down effects. Look into the Crusader and Psychic Warrior. The crusader can get you Thicket of Blades (every movement, even Withdraws and 5' steps, provokes AoOs from you), the psywar has powers to improve AoOs, and you can use the Stand Still feat to prevent any actual movement out of that square. It's a third party PDF called ENArsenal_Whips, 26 pages of all whip related weapons, feats and PRCs (only a few of each but the feat section is what held the gold; the Melee Lash feat chain. Was only a $1 for the pdf download. The improved and greater versions of the feat have higher Dex and BAB prereq's and only extend the threaten range by 5' per feat - but, for 3 feats I think it's worth it! The effeciency of a whip build is totally dependant on these feats (in my opinion), but subject to DM ruling on allowing 3rd party material =/ Melee Lash [Fighter] You threaten the area around you with a whip. Prerequisite: Dex 15, Exotic Weapon Proficiency(whip), base attack bonus +1. Benefit: When armed with a whip or other whip-like weapon, you threaten an area around you equal to your normal unarmed reach. You can make attacks of opportunity with the whip within that area. Additionally, you don't incur attacks of opportunity by using a whip in combat, or by any other use of a whip, such as with the Third Hand feat. Normal: A whip has 15-ft. reach, but does not threaten that area. Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.
#8 Tempest_Stormwind Mar 17, 2011 18:57:41	Wait, I just noticed you had feats that let the whip threaten... what's your source on those? If you're using whip-daggers, you can do some INCREDIBLE lock-down effects. Look into the Crusader and Psychic Warrior. The crusader can get you Thicket of Blades (every movement, even Withdraws and 5' steps, provokes AoOs from you), the psywar has powers to improve AoOs, and you can use the Stand Still feat to prevent any actual movement out of that square. It's a third party PDF called ENArsenal_Whips, 26 pages of all whip related weapons, feats and PRCs (only a few of each but the feat section is what held the gold; the Melee Lash feat chain. Was only a $1 for the pdf download. The improved and greater versions of the feat have higher Dex and BAB prereq's and only extend the threaten range by 5' per feat - but, for 3 feats I think it's worth it! The effeciency of a whip build is totally dependant on these feats (in my opinion), but subject to DM ruling on allowing 3rd party material =/ Melee Lash [Fighter] You threaten the area around you with a whip. Prerequisite: Dex 15, Exotic Weapon Proficiency(whip), base attack bonus +1. Benefit: When armed with a whip or other whip-like weapon, you threaten an area around you equal to your normal unarmed reach. You can make attacks of opportunity with the whip within that area. Additionally, you don't incur attacks of opportunity by using a whip in combat, or by any other use of a whip, such as with the Third Hand feat. Normal: A whip has 15-ft. reach, but does not threaten that area. Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon. Ah, third-party. That's generally frowned upon. An alternative is the 3.0 Lasher PrC, which to my knowledge was never updated. It's in Sword and Fist and shouldn't be too hard to track down. It granted a similar ability with a 1-level dip, and continued to progress adding extra whip attacks and stunning abilities as it went along. It wasn't the best designed, but if your GM vetos 3rd party material, it's an alternative. Similarly, there's also a whip-related skill trick in Complete Adventurer, letting you use it as a grappling hook.
#9 solis_bjorn Mar 17, 2011 19:14:31	Yeah, we typically don't allow third party stuff, but for things like this we take a group vote. We came up with one feat that offset the buckler's penalty to hit - the guy who petitioned for it figured it was worth a feat to gain his hit bonus back while using the buckler and a 2hand sword, and we all agreed. I don't feel these whip feats are too bad - you have to spend 4 feats to do what a spiked chain fighter can do for 1 (proficiency...) and you only gain 5' more of reach by the end of it - the last feat requires 19 Dex and BAB +11... stays fairly balanced. I've looked at the Lasher PRC, wasn't impressed by the funny entry requirements or the PRC as a whole. That 1-lvl dip into Lasher is the only other way to gain being able to threaten with a whip up to your unarmed reach that I could find - though in 3.0 they considered the whip a ranged weapon =P