Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Goblite Jun 01, 2013 16:37:10	I have a backstory that I feel is pretty neat for a HobGoblin fighter who aspires to become a paladin. The question I have lies not in the class choices but in the effective character level of a starting Hobgoblin fighter player character. My DM has approved my idea and is almost as excited as I am about it because it gives him the opportunity to make a nice side-story for the party and we can both develop my character BUT...  He tells me that the EFC of my character would have to be lvl 3 for the following reasons: 1HD of Humanoid/Goblinoid/(monster?) = 1 lvl +1 lvl adjustment = 2nd lvl 1 lvl of fighter = 3rd lvl If that's what he wants to do, i'll roll with it. We both see that a 2 level penalty is pretty huge and will put me at a significant disadvantage, and he has said that he has something planned for me that may make up for that disadvantage and it fits the backstory to be a basic hobgob for a level, then start pursuing fighter traits until he finally acheives paladin-hood so, like I said, I'll roll with it. So what's the question? Well after reading the monster manuals and looking at forums about unusual PC races, I just don't think that this is how it's done with a hobgoblin. From my understanding, monster PC's do have a level per hit die and then then their level adjustment, and then their class level so a starting rakshasa fighter would be: 7HD+7adj+1Fighter for a total EFC of 15. and a starting bugbear fighter would be: 3HD+1adj+1Fighter for a total EFC of 5 But with not so monstrous races such as the aasimar, specifically races with 1HD (or less,) player characters use class level and don't take a hit die of race. For example an Aasimar fighter would have: 1Fighter +1adj for a total EFC of 2 and a Goblin fighter would have: 1Fighter and no adj. for an EFC of 1 With the Aasimar and Goblin, just like a Human or Elf, you don't take a racial hit die when you start. My DM has allowed me to play a Goblin before and I did not take a racial hit die for him either. I guess i'm just asking for the right way to make a player character out of a monster. If the community present significant evidence that my DM misunderstood the rules on the matter then I may bring it to his attention. Thanks for reading my post and I hope you all have good adventures!
#2 StevenO Jun 01, 2013 16:55:34	Your DM is incorrect as far as the rules are concerned. Any creature whos base for has one HD REPLACES that HD when it takes PC class levels.  The basic hobgoblin is actually a Warrior1 so if you are making a Fighter you replace that level. I will mention that the Hobgoblin is generally considered a "weak" LA +1 although with two stat bonuses it is to be expected.  Although it may seem like it negates those benefits, which I guess it does to a degree, I'd allow a hobgoblin to be played without LA but it will cost the character four points to buy ability scores with; this isn't a complete negation of the stat bonuses as it still means that 15+ scores in DEX/CON are easier to obtain and if you just put a 13 or 14 in either stat its like you're effective PB is going up.
#3 Goblite Jun 02, 2013 16:01:54	Thanks for the info StevenO
#4 StevenO Jun 02, 2013 18:36:26	Thanks for the info StevenO  Your welcome although reading your original post more closely it seems you already understand how things work. I'll say that I really can't think of ANY species with "humanoid" HD that I'd ever want to play.  I mean if you get HD you almost always have LA on top of it which makes the 'hit' to effective character level (ECL) all the worse and humanoid HD are some of the worst around. Some people also seem to think they can give up all the monster HD (for creatures with two or more HD) and just play using the LA.  There may be times that could work but often the LA already takes the racial HD a monster gets into account because without those weaker HD the LA would be higher than is shown.  A big example of this would be someone who tells me they can play a Minotaur Barbarian 1 as a 3rd-level character (not using Savage Species here) because it is a +2 LA race and they just don't take the Monstrous Humanoid levels; people sometime say the same thing about Ogre and it has even poorer racial HD.
#5 awaken_D_M_golem Jun 03, 2013 16:21:57	1hd races get that first hd overwritten by the first class level. (old) Rules are you keep the LA+1. So basically a Hobgoblin starts as a 2nd level PC. 1 class level and  1 LA.  When you gain enough EXP to reach 3rd level, you have now 2 class levels + 1LA. Results = you start wee little more powerful than your party but they catch up over the next 7 or 8 levels.  No problems. Newer + ~complicated rules are LA buy-off from UA. That +1LA slowly goes away (+ a slightly tasty exp trick). This is good, but requires very specific rules + maths. Old-ish rules are you start at level 1, get the LA, and pay a level long -1 penalty until you reach 2nd level. Do note, c.o. hasn't talked about this one in a long time. I say don't do this one.
#6 StevenO Jun 03, 2013 16:48:31	Which "old rules" are those awaken?  It sounds like a houserule I sometime here but I don't ever recall seeing it in any rulebooks. I'll also point out that if you can start at first level with an LA and then don't get to make 2nd level until you have enough XP to cover your level +LA (here enough XP to make 3rd level) you start off significantly stronger but then have to deal with the LA your for all time.  The idea of LA buy-off is simply that as you gain levels the "bonuses" you got for being a certain species become less significant.  For example being able to FLY can be a HUGE advantage at 1st-level but by 15th when flight magic is easy to aquire that benefit is far less significant. I don't remember exactly how much XP the buy-off costs each time but it basically works like this: Add class levels (racial HD don't count here) equal to 3xLA. (When you make Fighter6 for a LA +2 for example.) After you reach that level the next time you'd level you instead LOSE XP (most of the level worth but I don't remember exactly how much) but also have your LA drop one place.  (When you'd gain 7th-level you do not but do get to drop from LA +2 to +1.) While nothing has actually changed with your character you are technically a level lower than you had been (ECL 7 instead of ECL8) and thus should earn more XP for each encounter; this helps you catch up to your unadjusted friends. You can then repeat this again until the LA is all paid off.
#7 Tempest_Stormwind Jun 03, 2013 17:29:21	Which "old rules" are those awaken?  It sounds like a houserule I sometime here but I don't ever recall seeing it in any rulebooks. I think he's just using "old" in contrast with the "new" LA buyoff system. Putting "(old)" in parentheses suggests he's showing it as optional text for clarification. (I'm a bit rusty on deciphering Awaken's dialect, I'll admit, but the fact that his advice is typically spot-on at least gives a fixed reference point in the rules from which to make Decipher Script checks.)
#8 awaken_D_M_golem Jun 04, 2013 17:20:33	My kitty avatar resents being associated with a "spot" ... (doggerel).
#9 Goblite Jun 06, 2013 2:03:36	My DM is a great sport, He and I looked over the books tonight and he realized he was confusing gnolls with hobgoblins. One of those brain disconnection issues we suppose. Gnolls do indeed take humanoid HD, but we got it all straightened out and my hobgob is now in the game. One interesting thing I wanted to point out was that he was decided to allow me to "buy out" my level adjustment using some variant rules he found. Since a level adjustment can become a very costly thing at higher levels, you can end up just taking an exp penalty instead of a full level penalty once you get to a certain level. Good read and a great variant rule if you ask me. www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducin... Thanks again for the nice info guys. Edit: Wow.. this is totally what you guys are already talking about.. lol! I had just followed the link from my email to post this and didn't bother to read the newer posts in the thread until now. You guys are on top of it!
#10 StevenO Jun 06, 2013 10:56:57	My DM is a great sport, He and I looked over the books tonight and he realized he was confusing gnolls with hobgoblins. One of those brain disconnection issues we suppose. Gnolls do indeed take humanoid HD, but we got it all straightened out and my hobgob is now in the game. One interesting thing I wanted to point out was that he was decided to allow me to "buy out" my level adjustment using some variant rules he found. Since a level adjustment can become a very costly thing at higher levels, you can end up just taking an exp penalty instead of a full level penalty once you get to a certain level. Good read and a great variant rule if you ask me. www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducin... Thanks again for the nice info guys. Edit: Wow.. this is totally what you guys are already talking about.. lol! I had just followed the link from my email to post this and didn't bother to read the newer posts in the thread until now. You guys are on top of it! Oops.  I guess Gnoll and Goblin are pretty close in the book and a Gnoll looks a little like a goblin (at least it may to a general population) so now I can see the mixup.  In all honesty a Gnoll is a great example of what can be wrong with racial HD and LA.  It certainly has some nice racial modifiers for a fighting type character and it gets a point of natural armor and darkvision but beyond that it just sucks.  Starting in Half-Orc gets you much of that except its short +2 STR and missed the +2 CON and the minor bit of natural armor but it has the darkvision and rest of the ability modifiers.  Would +2 STR, +2 CON and +1 Natural armor be 'worth' a +1 LA?  Most likely for a fighting character as the STR help make up for the lost BAB, the CON for the lost hitpoints, and the +1 armor for some of the other things you miss.  Where is SUCKS is that you also must take two HORRIBLE HD in humanoid.  The 3/4 BAB, d8 HD, good FORT and 2 skill points just don't cut it.  Enough on how terrible it would be to play a Gnoll. It's good that your DM will allow you to 'buy off' the +1 LA from Hobgoblin.  I'll just point out that you technically start as a 2nd-level character with a Hobgoblin class 1 character so you would be slightly stronger than other 1st-level characters.  While the buy-off is good you may want to see if there would be something else you could do to negate the LA as the Hobgoblin may not be worth it to start with.
#11 StevenO Jun 06, 2013 11:02:12	I just got a really stupid idea that may fly.  See if you could start out as a GOBLIN, maybe a slightly larger (medium) goblin without the STR penalty and ride bonus and then when you would normally "buy off" the LA from Hobgoblin (making 4th-level)  instead change the character from a goblin to a hobgoblin.  That would remove the -2 CHA penalty from a Goblin (and the -2 STR if you couldn't get rid of that earlier) and trade it for a +2 CON modifier.  This could simply represent you "coming of age" as it were. I mean if you compare them side by side they are already pretty close together: Size:  hobgoblin = medium, goblin = small Abiltiies:  Both +2 DEX; hobgob +2 CONT; goblin -2 STR, -2 CHA Skills:  Both +4 move silently; goblin +4 ride Both move at 30' and have darkvision to 60' Favored Class:  Hobgoblin = Fighter, Goblin = Rogue;  Of course with only 3 class levels this should never matter.
#12 Goblite Jun 08, 2013 10:58:51	Yea my DM is a great guy. We were friends for a few years before he introduced me to pen and paper D&D. I went with hobgoblin because it sort of fit a memory that I have from playing Bladur's Gate II on the PC. There is a point where the story brings the character to the drow capital, on my playthrough I just rolled through slaughtering them all. On the outskirts of that area was a slave mining camp full of hobgoblins, gnolls, goblins, etc... and you can choose what to do with them- I freed them and let them go. That's where this character picks up! A hobgoblin who's clan was enslaved by drow, normally lawful evil, gets his worldview rocked by a sudden unexpected and unexplained act of mercy in the midst of utter misery. He leads his clan to the surface, establishes a home for them and ponders why the "awe inspiring" hero let him live when most would have simply eliminated him because of his race. So he and his clan members attempt to forge a weapon and some armor that look like the hero's and the hobgoblin fighter sets out on a quest to become a force of goodness (in an almost fanboy way) hoping to ultimately become a paladin. Of course, despire his, now, lawful good alignment and best intentions- he has to wear a helmet with a visor or a hood in order to keep his face and identity concealed among the civilized surface races. My DM says he's got some ideas in mind for a paladin side-quest for me and i'm already having a blast roleplaying the character. Another fun aspect is that we havent told our fellow players about the backstory, hehe. Longwinded way to say it... but I jsut went with hobgob for sentiment's sake.
#13 Beldak_Serpenthelm Jun 08, 2013 11:07:00	Yea my DM is a great guy. We were friends for a few years before he introduced me to pen and paper D&D. I went with hobgoblin because it sort of fit a memory that I have from playing Bladur's Gate II on the PC. There is a point where the story brings the character to the drow capital, on my playthrough I just rolled through slaughtering them all. On the outskirts of that area was a slave mining camp full of hobgoblins, gnolls, goblins, etc... and you can choose what to do with them- I freed them and let them go. That's where this character picks up! A hobgoblin who's clan was enslaved by drow, normally lawful evil, gets his worldview rocked by a sudden unexpected and unexplained act of mercy in the midst of utter misery. He leads his clan to the surface, establishes a home for them and ponders why the "awe inspiring" hero let him live when most would have simply eliminated him because of his race. So he and his clan members attempt to forge a weapon and some armor that look like the hero's and the hobgoblin fighter sets out on a quest to become a force of goodness (in an almost fanboy way) hoping to ultimately become a paladin. Of course, despire his, now, lawful good alignment and best intentions- he has to wear a helmet with a visor or a hood in order to keep his face and identity concealed among the civilized surface races. My DM says he's got some ideas in mind for a paladin side-quest for me and i'm already having a blast roleplaying the character. Another fun aspect is that we havent told our fellow players about the backstory, hehe. That's amazing. Love it. Longwinded way to say it... but I jsut went with hobgob for sentiment's sake.  This is a fictional game that you're taking time out of your real life to play. If that's good enough for you, then it's good enough for you.
#14 StevenO Jun 08, 2013 11:48:16	... I went with hobgoblin because it sort of fit a memory that I have from playing Bladur's Gate II on the PC. There is a point where the story brings the character to the drow capital, on my playthrough I just rolled through slaughtering them all. On the outskirts of that area was a slave mining camp full of hobgoblins, gnolls, goblins, etc... and you can choose what to do with them- I freed them and let them go. That's where this character picks up! ... BGII was, at least in my estimation, the BEST Computer RPG EVER!  While I remember the little 'drow adventure' just "rolling through them" really wasn't the best way of handling them.  If you do that you miss too much XP and treasure for my tastes along with a few interesting missions.  I don't remember a mining camp full of humanoids on the outskirts however; do you remember if it was actually outside the city or was it part of the actual city map? I do appreciate the character background.  I still think I'd see about doing something to play without the LA from first level which of course isn't really "first" level when you have LA.
#15 Andarious-Rosethorn Jun 10, 2013 22:06:57	If you're doing a quest to become a paladin consider the Prestige Paladin. It's from UA so it's sorta DM's permission by its very nature but it's pretty cool and works for your RP better. You will need to take at least 1 level of Cleric (Or other LG allowable divine caster entry that provides Turn Undead and Protection from Evil) and it's the norm to start as a Fighter. A sample entry that works is Fighter 1/Cleric 4, you'll get more Cleric casting that way which many here will argue is better than not cleric casting. You won't get Paladin spells though, some of which are pretty neat. Still spells as a Cleric 12 beat Paladin 20 for almost all purposes.