Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 unundindur Apr 11, 2009 12:19:29	Here is my "generalist" wizard build. By generalist I mean one who works like a wizard, not the actual game-term generalist. I was wondering if anyone have ideas of how to optimize it without going totally overboard. I hope to make a build that can survive by itself, and which have a trick for most situations.
#2 cloer Apr 11, 2009 14:05:26	You cant have abjuration banned if you want to be an incantrix or Olin Gisir. If you are taking the fighter variant your 5th level feat has to be from the fighters feat list (also your 10th,15th and 20th if you go that far), why not take Spontaneous Divination variant from complete champion, that way you dont need to prepare divination spells. Or the domain granted power variant. Since these variants substitute your feats that means you can get improved initiative and not be stuck with fighter feats Or you can go Con 3/MS 2/Incantrix 10, that way you get into incantrix a whole level earlier I recommend moving Craft Contingent Spell to your 12th level feat slot, the earlier you have access to it the better. Metamagic School Focus is more useful early on, and since you are going incantrix, you are already gonna have reduced cost for metamagic, so get it sooner or get something else. Id trade Insightful Reflexes for Cloudy Conjuration since you are a focused conjuror, or sculpt spell if you manage to qualify for it early. Also have you head of the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil??? :D
#3 unundindur Apr 11, 2009 22:10:52	You cant have abjuration banned if you want to be an incantrix or Olin Gisir. If you are taking the fighter variant your 5th level feat has to be from the fighters feat list (also your 10th,15th and 20th if you go that far), why not take Spontaneous Divination variant from complete champion, that way you dont need to prepare divination spells. Or the domain granted power variant. Since these variants substitute your feats that means you can get improved initiative and not be stuck with fighter feats Or you can go Con 3/MS 2/Incantrix 10, that way you get into incantrix a whole level earlier I recommend moving Craft Contingent Spell to your 12th level feat slot, the earlier you have access to it the better. Metamagic School Focus is more useful early on, and since you are going incantrix, you are already gonna have reduced cost for metamagic, so get it sooner or get something else. Id trade Insightful Reflexes for Cloudy Conjuration since you are a focused conjuror, or sculpt spell if you manage to qualify for it early. Also have you head of the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil??? :D Thanks! Very helpful feedback. Abjuration is a clear problem... The big question then is which to give up, 2 spells per levle or incantatrix... (or another school). The fighter feat is also a good catch, which I willl fix. As for the progression, getting itno Incantarix early isn't really something I crave for, I was more looking for the most feats, which is why I have wiz5/ms1/og1 for a total of 4 feats. I will look into contingent spell, and try to get it earlier. initiatie of the sevenfold veil is well known to me, but it will effectively make me into an abjurer, which I am not all that fond of. Also, I prefer Incantatrix if at all possible. I believe Insightful reflexes will be a key part of the character, as he will have little else in the defence against that sort of thing (except for abrupt jaunt). Cloudly conjurations looks nice though, albeit a bit "retarded mage from cartoons" :P . I will look into that. Thanks for the comments, and I will post the updates soon.
#4 cloer Apr 11, 2009 23:13:33	Glad i can help, i'm also in the process of building a mage quite similar to yours, here are some other points you might find useful. Your best bet is gonna be to just be a specialist and forget about focused specialist, i know its tempting to try to get that extra spell slot but since common sence says you cant drop conjuration or transmutation and you cant ban divination or abjuration, you are gonna have to drop illusion witch is 3rd in power behind conj and trans and very usefull, Also you need spells from 5 schools to be a archmage so if you ban 4 schools you cant qualify. If you like feats consider human or strongheart halfling. My personal build is gonna be something like: Conjuror 5/incantrix 4/IotSFV 7/archmage 4 Granted im gonna have to use up like 5 feats that are not that usefull but the class abilitys are just pure win. Icould save like 3 feats if i whent: Abj 3/MS 2/incantrix3/MS1/IotsfV7/archmage 4 ....but i like abrupt jaunt to much Many people think the main point of cloudy conjuration is to debuff the enemy, but the real use is to place it between you and the enemy so he doesn't attack you (hes gonna have to go around the cloud to hit you myabe provoking AOO from your allies or running out of movement points, or at least make it so he cant charge you that round), or give you cover from archers untill your next turn. And by persisting defensive spells with your 3rd level incantrix abilities you will have enough defenses not to need Insightful reflexes. Even more if you take IotSFV;)
#5 keithio Apr 11, 2009 23:39:56	Once again, I wholeheartedly sponsor: DomainWizard(Transmutation)5/Incantatrix4/IotSV7/Archmage4 Dropping Evocation into a fiery pit of doom FeatsRequired: -Spell focus(abjuration) -Spell focus(conjuration/transmutation) -greater spell focus(abjuration) -Skill focus(spellcraft) -(Iron will for free from that hole) FeatsYouWant: -Extend -Persist -arcane mastery -versatile spellcasting -cloudy conjuration -planar touchstone[catalogues of enlightenment(Inquisition)] -quicken -chain Well that's all the feats you get. Wizardry dodgery-do: -Martial Wizard (Improved Initiative) -Spontaneous Divination -elf with hummingbird +8 initiative familiar? why not Archmage is the master of: -shaping -counterspelling -elements -reach What can I say, it's versatile and I love it. I've never actually played the build though, that's just a mish-mash of what I think it looks like. Edit: And yes, yes it is a transmuter domain wizard who specializes in abjuration and casts mostly conjuration but also divinations whenever the need arises. Why specialize in one school and drop two when you can specialize in four and only drop one? That's my take on it.
#6 cloer Apr 11, 2009 23:53:53	....but i like abrupt jaunt to much To the point id ban 2 schools for it:D elf with hummingbird +8 initiative i found the hummingbird but it grants only +4 how do you get the other +4??? How do you get VERSATILE SPELLCASTER to work if its spontaneous?? do you mean by using Spontaneous Divination can you only use it for divine spells or any spell you know??? if so thats nifty.
#7 keithio Apr 12, 2009 0:12:38	To the point id ban 2 schools for it:D i found the hummingbird but it grants only +4 how do you get the other +4??? How do you get VERSATILE SPELLCASTER to work if its spontaneous?? do you mean by using Spontaneous Divination can you only use it for divine spells or any spell you know??? if so thats nifty. An elven racial substitution level doubles the bonus given by your familiar. Spontaneous divination allows a wizard to qualify for versatile spellcaster, and they can use it on any spell they know. While it's RAW by majority consensus around here, it's definitely cheesy. But hey, this is CO. Familiars are way better than abrupt jaunt, in my opinion. However, if you can get a familiar from another source and have both, more power to you. In any event, you won't be using abrupt jaunt once you get IotSV, so it will cease being useful... but you'll still be down 2 schools. I admit though, for low level survivability it is fantabulous. If I were playing a campaign that wasn't going above level 10 or 12, I'd take it in a heartbeat.
#8 cloer Apr 12, 2009 0:28:24	elven racial substitution level where can i find this??? I just like the idea of beeing able to teleport as a imediate action, and seeing the look of surprised foes. But you are starting to convince me. VERSATILE SPELLCASTER is really nice its definitly going into my build, any other feats i can use taking advantage that i am a "spontaneous caster"??? Familiars more usefull than abrupt jaunt? please explain
#9 keithio Apr 12, 2009 0:38:12	3rd level elven wizard substitution level, page 157 of races of the wild. You give up familiar's ability to deliver touch spells and speak with animals of its own kind. But yeah, the wizard who wins initiative wins the duel... and mine is an elven hummingbird type ^^ Familiars are useful because you can share spells with them. My personal favorite is battlefield perception, which lets your familiar counterspell any spell once as a free action. Not too bad for a 3rd level spell, eh? Also, you can shapechange him, etc etc. And if he dies - you lose 500 exp. Oh no. I've never lost a familiar (without dying myself), so I don't fret it. Just keep him on your person and he'll be fine ^^.
#10 cloer Apr 12, 2009 1:21:32	Ok you have almost convinced me: It says in dragon that the hummingbird familiar is for specialist wizards in conjuration, how do you get around that. The racial substitution level says it doubles skill points,hp, and saves are you sure its legal to apply it to initiative??? now if i can only figure out how to counterspell, but ill pot a new thread for that since i have already hijacked this one to much.
#11 dr_rocktopus Apr 12, 2009 1:36:32	May I mention that you do have the option of entering master specialist much earlier? As early as ecl4? Which would net you some nice abilities....
#12 cloer Apr 12, 2009 1:54:37	May I mention that you do have the option of entering master specialist much earlier? As early as ecl4? Which would net you some nice abilities.... Im not such a huge fan of MS, The MS10/IotSFV7 is pretty streamlined and saves you many feats but i dont like abjuration, but maybe its because i dont know how to use it. And as for the conj MS abilities the only good one is the last one, wich you get at level 13, but by then you can be: wiz5/incantrix8 wiz5/incantrix4/IotSFV4 Conj3/MS10
#13 dr_rocktopus Apr 12, 2009 2:10:09	I disagree, the MS abilities tend to be superb. I mean, the capstone for abjuration is just silly, presuming you don't use the familiar+split ray cheese.
#14 cloer Apr 12, 2009 2:28:35	Like i said abjuration MS is pretty nice, convine that it gives you exactly the feats neaded for IotSFV you can say its fits togheter like the pieces to a puzzle (almost as if it where created for each other). but the conj are subpar, the first 2 only help you summoning, the last one is very good, but by level 13th you can be 8 levels into the incantrix class.
#15 Treantmonklvl20 Apr 12, 2009 7:28:50	Here's a good rule (having read through this thread). Everything Cloer has said +1. Abrubt Jaunt is worth it. Unless you are focusing on summoning (which you aren't) then any Conjurer worth his salt should have it. The Conjurers at high level who have never undergone a ressurection almost exclusively have it ;) I agree that giving up a 4th school is too painful. If you are going Incantatrix, then go regular specialist. This is the cost of Incantatrix. Master Specialist can easily be qualified for at 3rd level - but like Cloer, I think the PrC is OK, but not great. Generally the MS gives you one really nice ability - but not until level 10. Giving up a bonus feat at level 5 in order to enter early when you don't plan to take all 10 levels probably isn't worth it. If you really want the hummingbird familiar - your best choice is to go domain wizard (Conjuration). Then technically you are a generalist, and don't give up any schools of magic (you can give up enchantment when you go Incantatrix, or possibly evocation). You still get the extra casting that specialist gives you, only it's restricted to a specific spell - but the Conjuration domain spells are spells you would probably memorize anyways. You also get them all in your spellbook as bonus spells. However, in my experience, DM's aren't big on domain wizards - so better check with yours before considering that route.
#16 zax Apr 14, 2009 16:30:34	I am playing a conjurer with 10 levels of MS right now, and I have to say, it's EXCELLENT. Not only is it less investment than incantatrix, it gets a lot less groans around the table, while being powerful in its own right. The abilities you get levels 1-9 are solid, if not powerful, but the capstone is superb. I gained early entry to MS through precocious apprentice, and the build is: Wiz 2 / MS 10 / Archmage 2 / Paragnostic Apostle 2 I chose PA to gain a couple of 'OK' abilities while not making everyone shake their heads. So the character isn't world-destroying like the last incantatrix I played (twin max empowered split enervation... sigh) but is very solid at BC and surprisingly, at blasting too. What I've found with conjurers is that early-mid you are excellent at BC and mediocre at damage. Later you are forced to take a more damage-dealing role if you have no other blasters, with a few BC items like stun ray and reverse gravity. This is where MS10 is handy - you can blast and BC in the same round. Every wizard build from now on I do will involve trying to fit in MS, but the best lvl 10 ability is conj by far. Much of the rest is balls but if you have nothing better to do, it's an easy way to pick up GSF and skill focus for archmage. Minor esoterica is a must for illusionists...
#17 casualgatherer Apr 14, 2009 17:07:04	Stilled and Silent Illusion spells for free always seemed very good flavour-wise for me, but not exactly great. If you really really really want that Familiar and Abrupt Jaunt, you can Obtain Familiar.
#18 cloer Apr 14, 2009 19:47:35	Stilled and Silent Illusion spells for free always seemed very good flavour-wise for me, but not exactly great. If you really really really want that Familiar and Abrupt Jaunt, you can Obtain Familiar. true but for me flavor wise i dont like familiars, the only mage i remember in Forggoten realms books with a familiar is gromph baenre (rat)
#19 keithio Apr 14, 2009 19:51:48	true but for me flavor wise i dont like familiars, the only mage i remember in Forggoten realms books with a familiar is gromph baenre (rat) I wasn't too thrilled with them either, until my DM allowed the permanantly Polymorph any object'd BBEG to be my familiar after he became a humble weasel.
#20 lormador Apr 14, 2009 20:20:11	Don't forget the weapon: that quarterstaff isn't just for show. You can enchant the heads separately, since it's a double weapon. How does a +1 Quarterstaff of Warning / +1 Eager Quarterstaff sound? It's an important consideration when weighing the Hummingbird / Elven racial substitution question. Your initiative will be: +DEX (let's call it a 2, just to be safe) +4 (untyped, Improved Initiative) +5 (Insight, Warning weapon enhancement) +2 (untyped, Eager weapon enhancement) +5 (untyped, Nerveskitter spell) ------ +18 initiative. I recommend getting the Dex to 18, just to have that +20 init for ease of play. Since Abrupt Jaunt is, in fact, so nice and since a familiar can be acquired later with Obtain Familiar (freeing its abilities from the wizard class levels, incidentally) the question to ask it whether you feel you need another bonus to a roll in which winning by 1 is the same as winning by 10. For reference, the highest initiative modifiers in the Core monster set are the Balor, Pit Fiend, and Will O' Wisp at +11,+12, and +13 respectively. Oh, and having played an Otherworldly Sun Elf Focused Conjurer before: Earth/Salt mephit is the form you're looking for when Alter Self shopping. Xorn for when you feel like getting funky with four hands. There's a great high-AC outsider form in Exalted Deeds for Polymorph. You'll be using these buffs, it's the whole point of Otherworldly.... why not get more mileage out of them? Familiar + Draconic Familiar (feat, Draconomicon) + Extraordinary Spell Aim (feat, Complete Arcane) + Antimagic Field (excluding self and familiar) + (Greater) Invisibility = Stealth Bomber
#21 keithio Apr 14, 2009 20:42:40	I would not undermine the importance of +8 initiative when the general consensus for high-level play is "whoever goes first wins". Not that that is an absolute, but it is certainly very true. And if all your DM is throwing at you are Balors straight from the monster manual, you shouldn't be optimizing this much anyways.
#22 dr_rocktopus Apr 14, 2009 20:49:47	Actually, I disagree. It depends on how many balors and what level you are. As monsters go, outside of the really ridiculous ones, balors are quite deadly. Initiative is what matters most, in the vast majority of high powered combat. That said, contingency+celerity will get you a pretty long ways all things told. Remember, once you act, you are not flat-footed. Find a way to become daze immune, and celerity means never losing initiative again. Alternatively, I hear that life as a dire tortoise is pretty excellent.
#23 cloer Apr 15, 2009 0:20:29	Initiative is what matters most, in the vast majority of high powered combat. thats what i dont like about high level campaings, i preffer low/mid level attrition slug fests.
#24 dr_rocktopus Apr 15, 2009 1:41:04	I actually prefer it. It keeps combat short, and gives it this strange, almost perfectly elegant shape. Two wizards, facing each other across the wide field of battle, as yet unaware of the other. [INDENT][INDENT]T-[/INDENT][/INDENT] [INDENT][INDENT][INDENT]-i-[/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT] [INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT]-c-[/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT] [INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT]-k-[/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT] -time left for a single equation carved in the air, the battlemage sends a prayer to empty heavens and a whisper of fury hurtling over the dead earth. [INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT]![/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT]
#25 lormador Apr 15, 2009 7:49:10	I'm the last person who needs to be convinced that initiative is the single most important role in high level wizard combat. With, or without Celerity. What would you expect from the guy who advocates the 32,000+gp Quarterstaff dedicated solely to providing a total +6 bonus to that roll? I was only suggesting that there is more to life as a wizard. The +8 initiative Hummingbird familiar doesn't come without a cost. It comes at a cost of Abrupt Jaunt and being a Focused Specialist? Is it worth it? Now that I consider it, probably it is worth it, since the whole process leaves one with plenty of schools of magic to sacrifice to Incantatrix. What's the board opinion on this? On one hand: Elven Generalist, Hummingbird familiar, 5 levels of Wizard into Incantatrix? On the plus side, this scores the Spontaneous Divination variant. Yes, this will be better in a duel- and better in noncombat with all of that divination magic. On the other: Focused Conjurer with Abrupt Jaunt, then finish Master Specialist as quickly as possible? There is something to be said, after all, for being able to lay down extra-tough DC battlefield control spells round... after round.... after round.
#26 dr_rocktopus Apr 15, 2009 8:07:08	I lean, and I know this is heresy, towards generalist wizards. I find them more enjoyable to play, and I like the options that not banning... oh.... say necromancy offers me. It varies by which character concept I'm trying to fill, but as you may know my favorite prestige is War Weaver. I personally feel that incantatrix is worth playing a generalist wizard for alone. I would argue that a generalist wizard has a wide array of often-neglected benefits. Balance, in all things. The humming bird is just one more reason to play something fun for a change in my mind, but I'm old and I'm bitter. Abrupt jaunt is about all I'd give up schools for, that and incantatrix. Why lay down BC every round? Get it right the first time, mitigate the enemy mage, and go back to drinking your cup of tea. You're a bad-ass wizard, not a bricklayer! You get paid by the broken bodies not by the hour.
#27 lormador Apr 15, 2009 8:38:45	The only battlefield that couldn't use another Grease is the one with no enemies standing on it, right?
#28 dr_rocktopus Apr 15, 2009 8:52:45	Jake's simple rules: There is always an enemy mage. If you want to live, the enemy mage must die. Assume he is as clever, as fast, as smart, and as good as you are. You will not know how he opts to fight until the slice of the moment. Be worried, and never get cocky. You fail, your friends die. Don't assume that he's playing a battlefield control mage. There's always a chance that he's the mailman, or that she's a killer gnome, or that he or she is a dedicated magekiller build. Batman is scary, maybe the scariest, but you don't really want to be fighting the martian manhunter either.
#29 lormador Apr 15, 2009 9:51:26	All this is quite true, but just as in many other disciplines, the thing to do when faced with a worthy opponent is to attack. Attack, gain the initiative (in the usual sense), and stay in a position to capitalize on errors he makes in defense. I won't bother with analogies. In the case of a conjurer, this usually consists in dropping a solid BC spell on the enemy mage and his friends; holding the Abrupt Jaunt in reserve in case something bad happens. Celerity isn't allowed by all DMs, it's well known to be, shall we say, a little too good. That leaves Abrupt Jaunt as the last, best, and most efficient immediate action escape there is.
#30 dr_rocktopus Apr 15, 2009 10:01:54	Actually, I'm also a big fan of planar touchstone: breaching obelisk. That might be because I'm a madman though. What BC spell would you pick to try and open with in this situation? : curious : What effect does abrupt jaunt have on single target spells?
#31 lormador Apr 15, 2009 10:35:18	Wow, that obelisk really does grant mini-Time Stop! I guess I'd want a Freezing Fog for that one.
#32 dr_rocktopus Apr 15, 2009 12:25:10	Well, yes, and it's technically an instantaneous action to trigger it, too. I'd probably contingency polymorph if I can't get ahold of celerity, shifting to dire tortoise so that I get a surprise round automatically, blow my quiescent weavings with the resultant move action, then pop my mini-stop and roll from there. If you do the same stuff, it just boils down to initiative again.
#33 unundindur Apr 15, 2009 12:29:29	What effect does abrupt jaunt have on single target spells? I was wondering the same thing the other day. Will it work like a homing missile, and just continue to your new location, or will it effectively just fail? I don't think the books mention this. My reasoning would be that the effect would fail, since you in effect go to the astral plane for a brief second (if I got teleportation effects correctly...), at which the spell don't detect you anymore and thus fail, before you return again.
#34 dr_rocktopus Apr 15, 2009 12:40:39	Technically, I don't think you can jaunt as the spell is actually incoming. You can only interrupt actions, as I understand it, and you can't really pick where you interrupt them. I think this might fall below the meaningful granularity of simulation provided by DnD..... There's not really a concept of travel time for spell effects, so I think basically, you jaunt, and if you don't break LoS\LoE, the single target spell still hits you. AoE spells are basically targeted at a square, so those you can dodge, but I remain otherwise unconvinced............. Might be wrong though.