Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 finalbinderhandbook Feb 02, 2007 16:28:50	Credits and Information The Binder Introduction to Pact Magic Lists of Vestiges and Abilities * List by Level * List by Type of Ability * Pact Augmentations and Immunities Low-level Binder Advancement * Feat Progression Suggestions for Generic Binders * Magic Items of Note * Strategies vs. Specific Creatures* Combos * Offensive Combos * Defensive Combos * Caster-like Combos * Miscellaneous Combos * Tips and Tricks * Maximizing Save DC’s Customer Service Quotes for Convenience * Reports from the Trenches: Binder in Action* * NEW INFORMATION NOT IN PREVIOUS HANDBOOKS (but possibly buried in the thread) The purpose of this thread is to have one source for all a Binder’s needs, be they basic information, builds, combos, or anything else. T_G and Gerdreg, being the original authors of the two main Binder sourcebooks, both approve of the compilation here, and both have been really busy lately. This is likely to happen to me, too, so I’ve created a new profile and password that is completely public, so that users may edit the information as they see fit. Here it is: edit: since the change to the Gleemax system, it requires an email address to log in. Since I used a personal (but secondary) email address, if there needs to be a major overhaul, please PM or email me first, and I'll get back to you w/ the info (if its someone I don't recognize, don't expect it, though). Even though this is a completely public profile, please respect the work: if you think something is in error, or you’d like to add some combos, please post it first, just so the community has a chance to digest it and to verify its legality. I’ve formatted the text such that “fluff” would all be in sblocks, which I hope doesn’t insult anybody, and the “meat” such as vestige power lists and combos, which the CO community thrives on, would be readily viewable on the second post. Much of the work here was done by T_G and Gerdreg, I’ve just been the organizer of some of the more recent developments, and their works (and that's a mountain of data to process, in and of itself). With that, I hope you enjoy, and that it isn’t a wasted effort! Links to the original threads / handbooks (both have been archived): http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=605415 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=607826 -jameswilliamogle Gerdreg wrote:
#2 finalbinderhandbook Feb 02, 2007 16:29:20	Pact Augmentations and Immunities Soul Guardian and other Immunities Soul Guardian Level 6 - Immunity to Fear Soul Guardian Level 9 - Slippery Mind Soul Guardian Level 13 - Immunity to Energy Drain and Negative Levels Soul Guardian Level 19 - Immunity to Mind-affecting Spells and Abilities Acererak - Immunity to Cold and Electricity Agares - Immunity to Fear Buer - Immunity to Poisons and Disease Dahlver-Nar - Immunity to Wisdom damage, Wisdom drain, Madness, Insanity, and Confusion Haagenti - Immunity to Transformation Haures - Immunity to Mind-affecting Spells and Abilities Paimon - Uncanny Dodge Shax - Immunity to Electricity Kas – Immune to criticals from undead
Flindbar finalbinderhandbook Feb 02, 2007 16:29:51	I've decided to add a descriptor in front of each combo depending on what level it can be achieved, so the bolded numbers are the numbers that the particular combo can be achieved at. An entry with more than one number indicates that the main combo can go off early, but fully blossoms at the later level(s). Since there's no 2 vestige combos before 8th, there's very few before that: for low-levels, please check out "Low-level Binder Advancement" in the 2nd post. Also, I've started adding descriptors for what each combo is, essentially, so you could search for battlefield control, for example, and get all those combos, etc. I've moved a few combos around: assasination is under miscellaneous; several combos looked like non-combat caster related. Combat Old Combos (from previous handbooks) Movement 2 [Savnok]+Summon Creature/Elemental/Undead: You summon a monster in a hard to get place and then use Savnok's move ally ability to switch with the summoned monster. It's possible to accomplish this feat at 2nd level, making it possibly the lowest level teleportation combo ever. (You need one level of binder, improved binder feat, and a level in druid/cleric/sor/wiz.) You can switch places with Malphus's bird, past 8th. Pouncers 10 Anima Mage + [Chupoclops] + [Ipos] + Shape Soulmeld [Girillon's Arms] + Open Chakra (arcane version) + Wraithstrike: Pounce, rend when all claw attacks hit for double damage and if 2 or more claws hit you deal an extra double damage. Polymorph you can metamorph into a cave troll to pick up a third rend attack and rake attacks. High level trick, as Ipos is a 6th level vestige. Wraithstrike ameliorates your low base attack. This is one of those OMG PWNZoRZ!!!1!! kinda things... parental guidance is suggested. Skirmisher 10 Scout + [Paimon] + Dervish and Champion of CL: Between dervish dances, Paimon's death dance, +4 unnamed bonuses to dexterity, tumble and dance bonuses, and uncanny dodge this is just a solid choice all around. Touch Attacks (Otiax based) 10, 15 [Otiax] + [Malphas] + [Andromelius]: Use air blasts to deliver your sneak/sudden-strikes with greater accuracy as they require only melee TOUCH attacks. You also have reach. The air blast is really only functional for those characters who can add non-strength based damage. Three levels of swashbuckler might add to this combo nicely. RAW, I think you can get Power Attack on, too: talk w/ your DM. 10, 15, 20 Neraph Charge (Planar Handbook) + Power Attack + [Otiax] + [Malphus] + [Chupoclops] + [Andromalius]: Charging activates Neraph Charge which renders opponents flat-footed at the end of a charge, deliver touch attacks with Sudden Strike, Sneak Attack, and Power Attack damage, and get a full attack thanks to Pounce. Malphus' Invisibility and Chupoclops' Ethereal Watcher ability set up pouncing the following rounds. New Combos (not in the old Handbooks, but maybe are in the threads) Skirmisher 3 [Paimon] + any horse mount: Again, Dance of Death just requires movement around the opponent, so for a great low-level option, just ride a horse around your opponent. You'll probably get +1 for attacking on higher ground, and the horse will have a higher movement rate. 8, 10, 15 [Paimon] + [Malphus] + [Haures] + [Geryon]: Use Bird's Eye Viewing to scout ahead of the party, and before you get into the encounter, go Invisible. You use Haures to move right through opponents, as they're flatfooted as you attack all of them, getting all the sudden strike in the world: even if they get AoO's, they have 50% miss chance (against AoO's only). Geryon allows you to use Swift Flight, getting an additional +2 to hit from being on higher ground (on top of +2 from weapon finesse and the dex bonus from Paimon), and adds 2d6 acid gaze damage to all those opponents. Obviously, the main combo is just Paimon + Malphus, but the others are nice. Sniper 8, 10, 15, 20 [Triad] + [Paimon] + [Leraje] + [Haures]: Become a ranged weapon deity. Get a Greatboww/ Ricochet shot, Precise Shot, +4 Hide, +4 Dex, and Low-light Vision makes for a pretty neat Sniper. Any of the sneak attack/death attack/sudden strike vestiges make it that much better, too. Haures makes a Major Image, which you DONT need to concentrate on, that you can fire from behind. Sunder 9 [Aym] + Combat Brute: Not so great for PC's, but awesome for NPC's. Its simple: use Sundering Cleave w/ Aym's double damage on a Sunder. So freaking effective, it makes me guilty to mention it. 10 [Triad] + [Aym] + Goliath Warhammer = some serious Sundering damage. Disarm 10 [Triad] + [Andras] + Flindbar = free disarm when you roll a natural 17 or higher, which is nice. Anti-lawful / chaotic 11 [Eurynome] + [Primus] after 11th: Deal an extra 2d6 damage to lawful enemies, and extra d6 against chaotic enemies. Ability Buffs 15 [Andras] or [Paimon] + [Abysm]: Up to +8 to Str or Dex (4 unnamed, 4 enhancement), for BL rounds, usble a few times daily. Anti-Undead 15, 20 Kas + Tenebrous + Acererak and/or Andras and/or Andromalius: The Undead Killer combo. You can crit undead (and have a chance to blind them when you do), can't be critted by undead, bypass all undead damage reduction, can turn undead, detect undead, hide from undead and can speak with dead ...and beyond that you're healed by negative energy, immune to cold & electricity and can toss some added cold damage on your melee attacks ...and more. Toss in Andras and you can Smite Evil and crit more often (you can crit undead with Kas, so why not crit them more often... and possibly blind them in the process). Toss in Andromalius and remind those undead what a sneak attack feels like (again: thanks to Kas). Heavy Cavalry:fight!: 10, 15, 20 [Andras] + [Chupoclops] + [Eligor] + [Balam] + Shocktrooper + Imp. Buckler Defense: The ultimate in damage dealing potential. Pounce = full attack after charging; Lance = double damage after charging while mounted; Andras = free horsie, smite attack (which will be doubled on a charge w/ a lance), and Imp. Crit.; Eligor = +4 Str, natural armor, and a couple of great mounted feats, AND heavy armor prof; Balam = reroll 1 / 5 rounds, more AC, and 2d6 cold damage once per round; Shocktrooper = full 2 handed Power Attack damage to all the lance attacks, doubled, w/ no penalty to hit. Consider a BAB 16 character (KoSS 5 / Binder 15): 4 attacks per round, attack bonus of +20 w/o further Str or magic weapon mods, and 2d8 + 40 (smite) + 4 (str), + 64 (power attack, 2H, doubled due to lance) per smite hit (2d8 + 108 damage), -40 for the follow-up attacks, if the weapon has the valorous enchantment, thats 4d8 + 216 damage, (triple that on a crit), plus another 2d6 cold damage every round; AC could be a 45, w/o ring of deflection (+8 armor, +5 enhancement, +5 natural, +4 cover using the horse, +2 Dex, +1 shield, +5 enhancement, +5 insight), or 29 on a full-on Shocktrooper run. THAT'S what I think of when I think Fighter. Pouncer (variant of above) 10, 15, 20 [Chupoclops] + [Ipos] + [Amon] + [Ronove] + Ignore Special Requirements + Shocktrooper + Leap Attack + (Binder 15 / KoSS 5): You use Jump to get a full doubling of your PA damage from Leap Attack and Shocktrooper w/o losing your BAB, as normal. The main advantage is that on top of 4 natural attacks (2 claws, 1 headbutt, 1 bite), you also get to add iterative attacks from unarmed strikes using a monk's damage. At 20th, this combo gives 8 attacks at +18 / +13 / +13 / +13 / +13 / +13 / +8 / +3, at 2d10 / d4 / d6 + d8 / d6 / d6 / 2d10 / 2d10 / 2d10, and all these attacks get an additional +32 damage each (plus Str, some at 1.5 some at 1). Plus rend, plus soulsense, pluse ethereal watcher, plus darkvision, plus a swift action mage hand (carry Cure Serious Potions w/ it, to save time). Wicked damage Caster-Related Combos Old Combos (from previous handbooks) These are both splashes of binders w/ other classes; not true binders, necessarily. Truespeach 8 EBL 8 + Improved Binding + [Balam] + any Truespeaking class: Re-roll a Truespeak skill check every 5 rounds (or every 4 if you include Favored Vestige and Rapid Recovery). Metamagic Specialist 9 Anima Mage + Vestige Metamagic + Extend + Persistant + Improved Binder: You don't even need to try to abuse this one. Persistant magic available at 9th level, with minimal effort. Use the build: Binder 1/Wizard 3/Anima Mage 5 for a quick and fully legal entry. By 10th level you can persist draconic polymorph. YEAH BABY! Direct Damage 8, 15, 20 [Geryon] + [Balam] + [Fogolar] + [Amon]: It's almost guaranteed damage, one way or another - you've got 2 X 2d6 area effect gaze attacks which need not be activated, lightning strike every round for 3d6 + [(BL - 5) / 3] X d6, and a fiery blast for BL X d6 every 5 rounds. Balam's Cunning is useful in any build and Fogalor's Sadness is neat too, particularly since you'll want to be in the center of the enemy when you bind the gaze attack vestiges. Switching out Cabiri w/ Geryon or Balam gives you a 3/day Fireball, and Divination as the spell every round, making for some nice caster-emulating ability, and the 1/2 Vile damage (although better on NPCs) combined with the Divination abilities lets you know if you are going to face an enemy Cleric anytime soon. 10 [Geryon] and/or [Balam's] + Shape Soulmeld (Necrocarnum Shroud): Necro Shroud gives +1 profane to hit and damage if anything gets damaged while adjacent to you for 1 round, and both gaze attacks give continuous damage. Great if you have essentia to increase the radius of the Necro Shroud. And guess what: the profane bonus to attack and damage applies to any attack, and you can focus your gaze (which does not deactivate the area effect damage RAW) to immediately get that bonus off without additional vestiges or attacks. New Combos (not in the old Handbooks, but maybe are in the threads) Item Creation 5+ [Astaroth] + [Karsus]: Now, you are capable of not only making almost every magic item in the game, but you also can use them as well. Karsus not only grants you +2 to the save DC's, but also allows you to use items as a Wizard of your level. Thus, if you make staffs when you get to 12th level, you start using your Binder level and your Int for the saves. Sure, you still have to pay for someone to cast the spell, but its so worth it for most items. Astaroth's +4 to all craft skills could be useful (make a Fabricate staff, then use Karsus to make poisons, etc). Healing Battery 8, 15 [Ashardalon] + [Buer] + [Arete] + Expel Vestige or Vestige Phylactery: Ash gives an extra 2 temporary HP / level, which is a minimum of 30 when you get access. When you expel him, or force him out b/c of the phylactery, they go away, but rebinding will get you the extra HP again, reset to maximum. In the meantime, you have fast healing 3, DR 5/-, DR 10/cold iron, and other abilities relating to healing as well, making you a veritable troll. Combine w/ UMD and a wand of Shield Other and you just became a HP battery. (Arete is probably unessecary if you went KoSS 5 by this point.) Knowledge / Divination-like 7, 10, 15, 20 [The Triad] + [Dantalion] + [Naberius] + [Desharis] + [Cabiri]: Bardic Knowledge equal to binder level, +8 on Knowledge checks (RAW, should stack, but talk to your DM), and +5 from Call to Mind, for a minimum of +23 on all Knowledge checks (you can't take 10 or 20, though). Use Naberius's Skills to get Knowledge:Local for any place in existence, and Knowledge:Nobility&Royalty, to learn everything about that location (even planar cities! :lop: Desharis gets you another +6 on Kn:Local, for a +29 modifier. "Yes, I know the answer, even though I know not the question, nor have I ever been there." Cabiri is a one-vestige Divination MACHINE: Divination, as the spell, every round. Borderline Broken. Battlefield Control 10, 15, 20 [Desharis] + [Zagan] + [Haures] + [Halphax]: Another battlefield control combo: grapple a "softie", use aversion on a "meatie", make walls and summon buildings to block pathways, make a major image every once and a while, and animate a ton of small, adamantine objects, just to trip and attack creatures, never letting your initially grappled guy go (unless you decide to use imprisonment on him, and decide to grapple someone else). You also have DR 10 / adamantine, Mindblank, Incorporeal Movement, and the Infinite Doors ability for non-aversion defense, and a smite attack against most natural creatures, a limited Toungues ability, and Bardic Knowledge. This combo pwns in a big fight. 13, 15, 20 Zagan + Haures + Halphax + Ashardalon: First, lay down a field of illusory snakes all around your opponent, then use the Aversion power to make the opponent move as far away from the snakes as possible. Make giant circles of dead snakes around the opponent, and confine them to a 5' square! Add on Halphax and Ashardalon, and you are an awesome battlefield controller (use the Fear effect of Ash, the walls, Imprison, and Secure Shelter abilities of Halphax to block off whichever areas you want). You could also, instead of using Haures, just have the Wizard cast low-level summon monster spells for snakes (or, using Karsus, you use wands instead), or even just have snake corpses or zombie snakes (courtesy of Tenebrous's Rebuke undead). Don't forget you have Improved Grapple plus, to deal with any of the high-will squishy opponents. 15 [Halphax] + [Haures] + [Ashardalon]: A Binder's version of battlefield control. You have Fear as the spell every 5 rounds, Major Image every 5 rounds to screw w/ the opponents, a summonable Iron Wall, Imprisonment, and a summonable 20' square stone building to block holes in your defense. Tenebrous adds Deeper Darkness that you can make really, really big before even starting combat, and that doesn't affect you. Maximizing Fear Effects / Battlefield Control :surrender 15, 20 [Ashardalon] + [Chupoclops] + [Fogalar] + [Eligor]. You start out charging w/ a full attack, and the following round use the Fear effect. They'll be at -4 to their save already, but even if they make they'll be at -6 to most of their stuff as long as they're around you. The other abilities from these vestiges are really good, as well, for combat and as a general debuff as well. Stacking Fear's Shaken effect on a successful save w/ a maxed out Intimidate is a good idea. Tactical Nuke 1 [Amon] + Dragonborn (Heart aspect) + metabreath feats: Many DMs don't allow players to select feats based on temporarily gained prerequisites. Being a Dragonborn allows you to pick up a natural breath weapon and qualify for the metabreath feats. My picks would be Shape Breath, Clinging Breath, Quicken Breath, and Maximize Breath (Heighten Breath, while good, is overkill, imo). Entangling Exhalation is nice to use on your Dragonborn Breath Weapon. A single level of Dragonfire Adept can grant your party immunity to your breath weapon (and give ANOTHER breath weapon). Combining with Anima Mage can get you some very nice breath weapon requiring spells. Also, RAW, the metabreath feats say that you add rounds until your next breath weapon attack, but it doesn't say WHICH breath weapon (add the rounds to your weakest breath weapon ). Miscellaneous Combos Old Combos (from previous handbooks) Diplomonster 1 [Naberius] + Exemplar + Marshal: You are able to preform diplomacy checks without penalty as as STANDARD ACTION and you can TAKE TEN!!! Diplomancers just got way more powerful. Add in other PrC dips as you desire, but as a full-binder you really only need to dip outside the binder class for two levels (one for exemplar and one for marshal). Only go for exemplar if your DM does not allow custom items to boost skills. Assasination 8, 15 [Malphas] + [Andromelius] + [Marchosias]: Sneak attack + sudden strike both progressing off the same thing: your binder level. Never shalt thou see a more beautiful and simple combination. Many other binds also exist which add even more extra dice to your attacks. edit: Marchosias adds a TON of stealth ability, and death attack. 10, 15 [Marchosias] + [Chupoclops] + [Focalor]: Another rogue-like combination with at twist: death attack. Use Chupoclops's ethereal watcher to gain your three rounds of observance and then strike with Marchosias's death attack for nasty effect. You'll also have aura of despair and sadness active giving your target a -4 on the death effect save! I also recommend taking ability focus (death attack). edit: accorrding to CustServ, you still need a source of Sneak Attack. 10, 15, 20 [Focalor or Ipos] + [Chupoclops] + [Haures] + Ability Focus (Phantasmal Killer) + Favored Vestige (Haures) + Favored Vestige Focus (Haures) + Rapid Recovery (Haures) + Improved Binding: Use incorporeal movement + tumble to avoid any enemies in your way and then deliver the death attack to end all death attacks to your enemy. Due to aura of sadness and despair he takes a -4 to his saves and your DC is increased by 3 from feats. Throw on a decent charisma (say 30) and 20 BL and we're looking at a death attack with a save of 33 (don't forget that the enemy must make his saves at a -4 penalty). If Ipos is used the DC increases by 2, but you lose aura of sadness. The net effect is the same, but Ipos also gives you rending and claws. New Combos (not in the old Handbooks, but maybe are in the threads) Diplomonster, Part 2 10 [The Triad] + [Naberius] + maxed Diplomacy: Will make for an auto-check of 28 at 10th, plus your Cha. Thats a nice number to work from when you don't have to invest any levels or feats into it. You also get +5 Sense Motive, Empathy, and Detect Hostile Intent, making it a decent high level social/interaction Vestige. Add Naberius, and Naberius's Skills for Knowledge: Local, and you can become a kingpin, even during planar travel, buying and selling secrets for favors, money, or anything else you desire. Trapfinding 15 [Ashardalon] + Able Learner + search as a class skill + Trapfinding (either through a Rogue level, Theft Gloves, or anything else): Become the Searching GOD. With a 1st level dip in Rogue, and the investment of 1 rank per level, when you get to bind Ashardalon, you'll have a +33 to search, w/ no magic items (which could boost it up to 70 or higher: +30 item, +2 MW item, +5 Magnifying Glass, +Int items). With magic items, you auto-find magical auras, too, hitting the Epic Search skill DC. edit: With such a ridiculous search modifier, you should consider adding the new Dungeonscape feat that allows an auto-search for many traps when you get w/in 5' of it. Assasination 13, 15 [Andras] + [Marchosias] + [Malphus]: Sneak up on your enemies, staying hidden, then use the confound ability on them, whittling down their HP. After 3 rounds, go ahead and attack one of the "softies" using the death attack, then use Malphus's Invisibility to sneak away, setting it up again. 8, 15, 20 [Acerak] + [Malphus] + [Chupoclops] + [Focolor]: Sneak up on your enemies, invisible, then hit the opponent with Paralyzing Touch, while they have the -4 to their saves. They'll be paralyzed and helpless, allowing a Coup-de-Grace the following round. This combo is much more friendly to random combat than the Marchosias combos, as you need not wait 3 rounds to activate the ability, and have pounce, bite attacks, and lightening strikes that all can be used while waiting to "recharge". Scouting 10 [Chupoclops] + [Malphus]: Basically, you activate invisibility, then scout around. One round before invisibility becomes deactivated, you activate Ethereal Watcher and do nothing. After 5 rounds, you go invisible again (and return to the Material). Voila, you are invisible as long as you want!
#4 finalbinderhandbook Feb 02, 2007 16:30:21	Old Advice (from previous handbooks) - Buer's small granted heal is useable an unlimited number of times per day. This means that a binder can heal the party back to full during dowtime without wasting any of the primary healer's valuable resources. - If you suffer a large amount of ability damage or drain and cannot rest, you can use Expel Vestige and then bind Naberius to heal. - Combined with the Negotiator bonus feat and a Binder's natural emphasis on Charisma, Naberius can make a character an formidable diplomat. - Savnok's Move Ally ability can be used to bypass some terrain obstacles (which may be even harder to overcome in full plate) by trading places with a more mobile ally such as a summoned raven or earth elemental (as long as they are visible). This could also be used to break a grapple or other confine. - Balam's Cunning can be used to re-roll a Truespeak skill check every 5 rounds (or every 4 if you include Favored Vestige and Rapid Recovery). - Paimon's Death of Death ability can be used to trigger Skirmish damage. - Balam's and Geryon's gaze attacks can be combined for 4d6 continuous damage every round, and leave you free to perform other actions. - Amon's and Orthos's Breath Weapons can be used to qualify for Metabreath feats (Maximized Breath Weapon plus Empowered Supernatural Ability anyone?). This is debatable, RAW: see the first CustServ quote below. - Naberius can be used to offset the ability damage caused by the Festering Anger (Book of Vile Darkness) disease. - Naberius is also the main way the Hellfire Warlock overcomes the Con damage they take. - A Deathshead can be created using the Create Undead spell and a Murder of Crows may be summoned using the Summon Swarm spell. Though this is not useful to a pure soul binder, an Anima Mage (or any other caster with those spells) can take advantage of this. New Advice (not in the handbooks, but maybe in the threads) - The Veil of Allure (Sandstorm) grants a +2 save DC to all charisma-based supernatural abilities. - Ashardalon's Greed, along with a few ranks in Appraise and some magic items, could easily get you up to the Epic DC 50 needed to detect magic items. - Ashardalon'g Fear effect actually lasts so long that by the time it no longer effects the enemy, you could've already used it two more times (15th level, the earliest you can bind him). - The Triad gives +5 Diplomacy and +5 Sense Motive, as well as Bardic Knowledge, making it a great social / interaction vestige. - If you can get some ranks in UMD, or if you are using the Heterodoxy variant and started as a Cleric, you should bind Buer and use a Wand of Shield Other when available. You get fast healing, and can heal yourself in the back of the party w/ - Otiax's Air Blast ability works as a melee touch attack even up to 10' away; there's nothing in the rules that says you can't use Power Attack with this (it's like the Wraithstrike + Power Attack combo). 2d6+BAB is pretty good damage, imo. Go into it fully equiped w/ a shield. Tenebrous can add 4d8 cold damage to the attack, and specifies you can use it for a full round (at least when it gets to 4d8). Combine w/ Leap Attack + Shocktrooper, Chupoclops for pounce, and Andras for imp. crit in a 16 BAB build and you get 2d6+4d8+32 damage per hit (4d6+4d8+64 on a crit), and can still be 10' away from them. Shax's Sea Strike can add another 2d6 damage to one hit. Not bad if you just got MDJ'd in the World's Largest Dungeon. Air Blast may or may not work w/ Power Attack: its a strict DM call (not even RAW or CustServ can answer the question, apprently). - Arete some nice defense beyond having Buer bound: being able to heal oneself of 2d12 HP once per day (or more, w/ a crystal), having DR 5/-, and +4 to any save is really nice. - Dahlver-Nar can be a great way to keep dead things dead at low level. Gaseous Form is a particularly nasty way to keep recurring villains in a fight, for repeated encounters. In fact, any creature with any kind of incorporealness or any kind of heavy DR should be targeted with the Shield Self ability. Don't forget that you can deny yourself your Dex bonus anytime you want, and that a Sneak Attacking Rogue will do a ton of damage to you, if you so desire. - Knights of the Sacred Seal become Outsiders at 5th level as a Su ability. This goes away if you unbind your patron vestige. If you have Karsus bound, its time to start using a wand of Alter Self, as you get access to a ton of really useful abilities in outsider form (how would you like +18 natural armor, for example?). - I was rereading Zagan's abilities, and I just got to say, wow. It is THE vestige to be facing high level humanoid parties. Grapple the wizard, then use Aversion against the melee types. Just hope they don't have an active Freedom of Movement going! - How about charming a monster you don't like and making it your ally with your half-elf bard diplomancer cohort (or some other way..) and send the monster to the Ethereal plane forever? This could be accomplished with "Animal Friend: [Eurynome] All animals automatically friendly with you" so you can dispose of animal monsters chasing you down (that dinosaur causing you trouble? ). Just found this, but it seems like you can use this "Command or Suggestion: [Naberius] Command within 30 ft or suggestion (if BL >= 14) . 1/ 5 rnds." to make a enemy your friend, command him to get naked (don't want to lose his loot after all) and then teleport to the Ethereal plane and switch places with him. - Speaking of Eurynome, the always friendly animals are a great way to increase your fighting power. If you party w/ a Druid or Ranger, convince them to have a high Handle Animal, and you can train every animal you encounter. How about a bunch of ally fleshrakers? - Army building can start at 6th: Tenebrous's Rebuke ability can get you undead. 6th level is important, as you can control Shadows. Build your shadow army, just as all the necromancer-types. Combine with Leadership, and you easily can have tons of minions. How do you get a Shadow? Pay a spellcaster to cast Summon Monster 5, have it kill a squirrel, and wait d4 rounds (have the summoned Shadow command the created one not to attack). Then Rebuke. - A big problem of being a Binder is not knowing what you are going to face the next day. Since knowing is half the battle, The Triad is winning it before it begins. Use Call to Mind plus Bardic Knowledge plus Dantalion to get huge bonuses on knowledge checks. Combining it with Naberius, and using the Con skills to get Knowledge: Local will turn you into a local kingpin immediately. Oh, and let you find out what is happening the next day, who's planning what, etc. - Binders can do the trapfinding role, but it isn't easy. Karsus grants Detect Magic at will, which can reveal magical traps, and then can use the dispelling touch ability to try to dispel it. Mechanical traps are still a problem, though: Able Learner, a starting level of Rogue / Scout / Ninja, and planning on maxing Search and Disable will work, and late levels Ashardolon adds your Binder level to Search checks (alternatively, Shape Soulmeld and Open Chakra: Theft Gloves will get you trapfinding too, but it won't add the relevant skills). Just stick with Karsus, and take the mechanical trap damage like a champ. - Haures's Major Image does NOT require concentration to maintain: the effect is as the spell, but it automatically lasts Binder level rounds. Make the Image of a house, or wall, in the middle of your battlefield, and control it as normal. Nothing like a Tarasque jumping out of the ground to really scare the bejeezus out of your enemies, but what also works is to have the opposing party start dropping like flies... they won't know what the heck is going on. - Tenebrous's Deeper Darkness effect, unlike every other form of concealment, doesn't have the critical words: "you cannot hide in it". Thus, it allows you to get precision damage off much, much easier: its about the equivalent of Hide in Plain Sight. Straight from Gerdreg: (Save DC = 10 + EBL/2 + Cha Bonus) Generic Cha bonus = +12 (18 base Cha + 5 level bonus + 6 enhancement bonus item + 5 inherent bonus tome) EBL = +10 (level 20/2) Soul Lens (+1), 12k gp Veil of Allure (+2), 14k gp Vestige/ Ability Specific Ipos's Influence + Favored Vestige (+2 EBL/2) Ability Focus (+2 to one ability) Sudden Ability Focus (+2 once per day) Favored Vestige Focus (+1 for one vestige's abilities) Ipos's Influence (+1 when Ipos is bound) Chupoclops's Aura of Despair (-2 to other's saves when Chupoclops is bound) Focalor's Aura of Sadness (-2 to other's saves when Focalor is bound) Assassin's Dagger (+1 with Death Attack) Vestige granted feats and abilities weren’t intended to qualify one for prestige classes or other feats: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11326619&postcount=181 The save DC for the psionic Vestiges is ½ BL + Cha: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11231204&postcount=162 Marchosias’s Death Attack requires Sneak Attack or Sudden Strike from some other source, and this was as intended: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11278319&postcount=172 Binders can't bind multiple copies of the same vestige, Ipos's Planar Attunement clarified, and, Binders can revert back and forth between the Outsider type and their original type (hello, Alter Shape abuse... bring on Karsus!): http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11427332&postcount=16 It is ENTIRELY up to your DM on whether Power Attack can be used with Otiax's Air Blast ability: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10606961&postcount=133 Nobody knows how the Item Creation ability of Astaroth is supposed to work; talk w/ your DM: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11769670&postcount=65 Paimon's Dance of Death, although intended to work only on melee, works equally well w/ ranged RAW: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14399439&postcount=7999 Zceryll's Summon Alien ability was supposed to mimic the Summon Monster spell in all ways except for the ability to get multiple lower-level creatures (not a Cust-Serv answer, but from the designer himself): http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13128772&postcount=121 Reports from the Trenches: Binder in Action Here’s the rundown of how my Binder is working out in the Savage Tides adventure Path, modified for Eberron (I believe its normally LG). For those who don’t know, this is a heavily-aquatic themed series with a diverse array of opportunities and adventure (though there is also a strong central theme as well). I’m enjoying the campaign quite a bit. There probably will be some spoiling, but I will try to focus on the mechanical aspects of how things are working out. So far, I’m following my own advice above, Low-Level Binder Advancement, pretty closely. The DM was encouraging non-standard classes, and hasn’t really restricted anything yet. The other players are: a Beguiler, a Spellthief, a Psion, a Cleric/Psion (more Psion, now), a Warforged Fighter, and an Elven Blaster Wizard (taking UA options, he’s focusing on fire). The DM has given “Rule 0” power to the players as well as keeping it himself: if a clear majority think a feat, spell, power, etc. is too strong, then its restricted (Shock Trooper and Leap Attack have both been restricted already, for example). I went with Human. I rolled ridiculously high for stats (4d6, drop the lowest): Str 15, Dex 16, Con 15, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 17 Since we started at 1st, I took Improved Binding and Expel Vestige (I wasn’t sure if Expel Vestige was really necessary, but I’m very glad I took it). The DM allowed swapping of 2 class skills: I swapped Gather Info and Kn: Planes for Hide and Move Silently (UMD would've been better, but oh well). For my bonus languages, I took Giant (for Haagenti) and Aquan (since I knew it was an aquatic themed campaign). 1st level: I started bound to Naberius, but quickly switched to Malphus as we were sent on a search-and-rescue type mission. Malphus’s Bird’s-Eye-Viewing, coupled with a sunstick that the bird carried, ensured that the party wasn’t surprised at all. Sudden Strike only came into play when I attacked a grappling enemy (mostly undead). With Studded Leather and a Heavy Shield, I had an 18 AC, which was enough to keep most attacks off of me. I downed quite a few enemies w/ my Morningstar, which was quite rewarding. I tried to expel Malphus, but failed. After resting, I felt that we could use some more melee-oriented characters, and I bound Aym. Unbeknownst to us, we cleared all the enemies away already, and Aym actually was a bad choice: I made a bad pact, and since we had a ton of coinage, and also had to swim to get it ashore, I chose to role-play it out, and refused to leave any coins behind. We got a bunch of coinage, a few wands, and an Earth Elemental Gem that saved are butts. 2nd level: In between sessions, I used Naberius a lot, and disguised myself as a local nobleman. I bought a bunch of stuff on credit, and then dumped it on a fence, making some money that way. Once the session started, I bound Dahlver-Nar, and bought a MW Buckler, but didn’t have enough cash for a MW Chain Shirt (almost all our loot is tied up in magic items, which really sucks, as the Wizard is holding it all, and we’re overdue for some upgrades). I was putting Pact Augmentation to HP. Binding DN, I found, makes your first 1-2 rounds of combat almost completely defensive: you have Shield Self on one of your allies (preferably the Cleric), then target an enemy as you stand near the front, and hope they don’t kill you. Although this reduces your damage output, it really, really helps your HP totals (DR / 50% is awesome). The damage the enemy takes isn’t anything that you really can rely on: its almost strictly a defensive vestige. At AC 19, DN allowed a lot of tanking. I went below 0 once, and only for a few rounds (remember: Shield Self only goes away when the target dies, so I still had it active on the unconscious BBEG’s, which saved me from certain death). After working over some more bad guys, we fought a poorly defended humanoid. It almost assuredly is a recurring villain, as it drank a Gaseous Form potion after HP’s ran really low. Only the unconscious WF Fighter actually had magical weapons (from feats), and it was getting away. It took me a round to realize it, but then I targeted her with Shield Self, and following it, had the Spellthief and the Cleric follow me, backstabbing and healing me as we whittled down her HP until it stopped moving. This was a LOT of fun, and we got some fat loot from defeating it at this time (a 5 charge wand of animate dead, for example, and a +1 Rapier that came in VERY handy). The next day in the city, we had several random encounters, including some raptors (eating people). I (stupidly) forgot how strong Raptors were, and charged one that I could flank. Full attacks suck… Anyways, I was still conscious, but very hurt (<5 HP). I used the Maddening Moan ability of DN to make all the enemies Dazed (dinosaurs are known for lots of things: Will save isn’t one of them); all 3 Dinos that were on me failed the Will save, as well as the Spellthief and Fighter, who happened to be in range, and I moved 30’ without taking any AoO’s (the MM ability seems to be strictly for getting out of melee when things go bad). The cleric healed me a bit w/ a happy stick, and I targeted a Dino attacking our flank w/ Shield Self, and went in after the Spellthief engaged it. The Wizard busted open the Earth Elemental, and that finished combat rapidly. He also animated the raptors w/ the wand, right afterwards (much to the annoyance of the DM :D). 3rd level: I took Improved Initiative, still not knowing where to focus my Binder (as I have to leave the campaign in May, I’m not sure how many levels I’ll reach, and trying to take immediate benefit feats instead). I also started binding Paimon, and put Pact Augmentation into Initiative, for a +11 Initiative modifier. That +1 Magic Rapier put my attack bonus at +8, and damage at a paultry d6+3. AC became a 20, thanks to MW Chain Shirt and Dex bump from Paimon. Combat against mobs was very smooth for the most part: winning initiative means you get to Dance of Death round 1 before the enemy attacks, almost every time, and +8 to hit gives you some pretty good odds (better than the straight fighter, in this campaign). After that, they tend to surround you, but your good AC keeps things from hitting you most of the time, and giving you a great opportunity to use Whirlwind Attack on the following round. Against tough opponents, I found that using Dance of Death like Spring Attack (using the tumbling bonus from Paimon) kept me from taking too much damage, and the skeleton raptors were wicked-good at this level. I got taken down by a Raptor-thing, and actually hit -9 HP before my party killed him. We had almost spent our Happy Stick, and was only at 13 HP, so I used Expel Vestige (successfully) and then bound Focolor, suppressing the Aura of Sadness, and putting Pact Aug into HP. We had a few more encounters, but they were pretty easy: I stayed behind whoever was tanking, and zapped the badguys like a bug. Net result: Paimon is great for mobs of weaklings, but don’t expect to have a huge impact against the tougher BBEG’s, but you can make a difference in every combat with Focolor. Along the way, I took some ability damage, so bound Naberius while we returned home. We got a fight starting next session, and haven't had a chance to level yet (since we haven't rested). The next session we encountered a couple of thugs, that tried to pick a fight. We beat them easily, and I used Naberius (taking 10 on diplomacy) to convince the city guards that it was their fault with a 22 check ("These aren't the droids you're looking for"). We then encountered 6 low-level Rogues and a BBEG leading them in the city; they surprised us getting sneak attack on the warforged with alchemist fire, dropping him immediately. Then the BBEG went around the side of a building out of sight, and the Beguiler cast Obscurring Mist, to prevent more SA. I went around the opposite side of the building (had only 17 HP at this point, about 70%), and used Disguise Self as a standard action to make myself look like the BBEG (they were familiar w/ her, granting them +6 to spot it, but I had a +13 mod: +10 for Disguise Self, +3 Cha, +2 Bluff, -2 different sex); I then went around and told them that the person they were with was a Changeling, and they needed to attack it now (they believed me, but instead of attacking the other one, just were confused). This gave the Wizard enough time to repair the Warforged, and the Beguiler managed to charm the BBEG, and the others got into position. We then wiped out the group, but not until the Wizard got into negative HP territory. We then got immediately into ANOTHER battle, but started in it by trying to use Diplomacy. By this time, I was at 1 HP, so I disguised myself as a peasant. The tank, beguiler, and spellthief went up a few floors into a building, trying to talk someone into letting someone else go [trying not to spoil the adventure]. When we went into initiative, I went around the building, disguising myself as one of the minor bad guys. I then went into the building, without anyone taking AoO's against me, until I got to the top floor where half the party was (the other half fighting on the first floor). I bluffed and said the badguys needed to go downstairs to rescue one of the evil-coworkers (on the second floor, the Wizard had commanded two raptor skeletons to guard the stairs, after I had gone up). Half of them went down (all the minor bad guys) got flayed alive. The tougher badguys dropped a Tank, Cleric, Beguiler, and Gnome w/in a round (I drank a CLW potion then). I walked down the stairs, disguised myself as the same badguy that I had pretended was downstairs, and walked into the room where the evil do-ers were tieing up my party. I told them that I had escaped, and needed help defeating the rest of the ones downstairs, again taking 10 and getting a 20 bluff check. They went downstairs, as I said "I need to heal myself", drank another potion of CLW, then went into the room. I poured the last CLW on the beguiler, as the evil do-ers were working on the raptors. The beguiler in turn repaired the warforged. I jumped out of the window with the Gnome Spellthief, and landed prone, but only took 8 damage or so. The party downstairs were all < 0 HP. The party upstairs was running low. Anyways, it was a VERY harrowing fight, but I was dropped at that point w/ non-lethal damage. We won, but one of the bad guys was convinced to leave (Charm Person from the Beguiler, natural 1 on the save), and every party member, all the undead we had made, all of the consumable healing resources all got used up, only the Beguiler surviving at 4 HP. If I hadn't had Naberius bound, we all would've died (or at least been captured), but the extra time that I was able to grant the party really, really helped out a lot. The DM may have even been nerfing the NPC reactions, but just slowing them down was good enough for me. Having Naberius bound you don't even need to try to optimize for a diplomonster build, and still be ridiculously good at it; what's really, really nice is the take 10 on the bluff check (in this campaign, you can even action point it after taking 10, for some ridiculous numbers, since its Eberron). Level 4: We decided that retraining for non-power plays would be ok, so I retrained my Improved Binding feat to be in the 4th level bonus feat, and retrained the 1st level feat as Combat Expertise (planning on taking Deadly Defense at 6th). I put the stat bump into Cha, for a 16 DC save vs. my vestige abilities that allow saves. This is (more or less) where we ended on Sunday. More to follow as the campaign continues. Not much outside of standard skill checks occured through the rest of this level... I used Naberius a lot. Don't really remember much else (and the bit I did remember would spoil some of the adventure, too). Level 5: I started by binding Andras, but as we were going to do some more dungeon crawling, quickly switched back to Paimon. Using Deadly Defense and fighting defensively, I had a +7 to hit w/ a +1 Rapier. Using Dance of Death I managed to crit against 3 opponents... I ended up doing 79 damage in one round, getting initiative, and walked back to behind the (other) main tank (my AC was a 23 throughout this whole delve). I nicknamed this "turning on the blender", and there were many jokes about my recharge meter filling up between uses, me charging up like dragonball, etc. Afterwards, I found out I was diseased, and I managed to expel vestige and bind Buer... ending that. Levels 6 and 7: Just sucked; the Binder starts to fall behind straight casters and melee types at this point. The Medium BAB really hurt the whole concept of a finesse fighter. Our melee characters started failing Will saves, which really strained the Binder. It became obvious that it wasn't strong enough in melee to continue melee'ing. I was binding lots of different types of vestiges, too, most of which were mediocre. Eurynome sucks, as does Agares (as I thought it would). Buer proved ridiculously useful, but it still isn't a prime choice. Paimon and Andras were still the strongest choices at this level. 7th level, having no new access at all, really felt dead: I almost delayed leveling to get more XP from the remaining encounters. Level 8: Looking forward to combining Otiax's Air Blast w/ Combat Expertise and Sneak Attack :D. Theory matches Play: The Binder can melee with the best of them, but then has tons of other options to fall back on. I would NOT recomend this class for an inexperienced player, as the options can be a bit overwhelming, even with only one vestige to bind at a time.
#5 finalbinderhandbook Feb 02, 2007 16:30:52	Melee - Charging focused Binder Build by jameswilliamogle Human, Str 16 (+2 levels), Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 14 (+3 levels, at least a +1 book) (32 PB) Binder 12 (1-7, 13-17) / Knight of the Sacred Seal 5 (8-12) / Scion of Dantalion 3 (18-20) Class features and Feats 1 Soul Binding; Feats: Improved Binding, Feat: Power Attack (useful considering the final stats) 2 Pact Augmentation +1 (to hit bonus), Suppress Sign 3 Feat: WF: Spear (prereq) 4 Bonus Feat: Expel Vestige (standard for most Binders) 5 Pact Augmentation +2 (to hit bonus still) 6 Immunity to Fear; Feat: Improved Bull Rush (prereq) 7 no new abilities 8 Aligned Strike, Patron Vestige (Dahlver-Nar), Bind 2 Vestiges 9 Vestige Protection; Feat: Shock Trooper (THE charging feat) 10 Protection Aura 11 Vestige Power 12 Apotheosis, DR 10/magic; Feat: Leap Attack (more charging goodness) 13 no new abilities 14 Slippery Mind, Bind 3 Vestiges 15 Pact Augmentation +3 (still +to hit); Feat: Improved Sunder (prereq) 16 Bonus Feat: Sudden Ability Focus (to amplify shield self, mainly) 17 no new abilities 18 Reroll a Knowledge check 1/day/SoD level; Feat: Combat Brute (more charging goodness) 19 3rd round of Read Thoughts first round, Dantalion's Awe as Swift action 20 Daze a Read Thoughts target (DC 24 w/o items, d4 rounds), Bind 4 Vestiges BAB 16; F 17, R 8, W 11 (post mods, no items) HP: 145 (we use the 1/2+1 method) AC: 28 (assumes Savnok + Andras, no shield) and DR 10/magic and DR 5/magic&piercing Final attack routine w/ the Melee Vestiges (Chupoclops, Andras) (pre-item, w/o the +2 Str for 1 round): +26 / +21 / +17 / +12 w/ a Spear, & pounce & Shock Trooper & Leap Attack... damn that's hot (+52 damage per hit w/ a Spear). 2 levels of Totemist, and the Defensive Strike feat (CS) would be one way to update this build. I believe the character could get, using all sources, around 5-6 natural attacks per round, and all of them would do an extra d6 if fighting defensively, plus the 4 normal attacks. Paimon based Swordsage Multiclass by LucRivNor Ape 2/Binder 2/ Sword sage 2/Binder +1(3)/ Knight of the sacred seal 5/... Key feat : Improved Binding at level 3 Shadow Hand at level 6 Note Weapon focus is get at Sword Sage 1 and Weapon finesse via Paimon Binding. The rest of the feats and levels are open. Ape gets good saves and +2 BAB. Possesion Obsession by Gerdreg Knight of the Sacred Seal 5 + Shape Soulmeld: Planar Chausible = Will Save +5 + Outsider Type + Evil Subtype = Fiend of Possession. You STILL need an alignment subtype to make this work... An example build (I'll call it the "Master of Souls") would be... Binder 6/ KotSS 5/ Fiend of Possession 6/ Binder 7-9 EBL 14 (16 with feat) will allow access to 7th level Vestiges BAB +14 All the FoP goodies (Ethereal at will, Possession, ect.) Cha Synergy (all the FoP abilities are Cha based Supernatural Abilities) Skills: Hide 6 (Cross-class), Knowledge: Arcana 6 Feats: Improved Binding, Weapon Focus, Shape Soulmeld (Planar Chausible), Expel Vestige, Rapid Pact Making, Ability Focus (Possession), Split Chakra, Ignore Special Requirements, Sudden Ability Focus How to maximize your Possess Creature save DC... Base Possession save DC = 10 + FoP level + Cha Bonus = 28 Veil of Allure (+2) [14k gp Sandstorm] Ability Focus: Possession (+2) Sudden Ability Focus (+2) Chupoclops's Aura of Despair (-2 to other's saves when Chupoclops is bound) Focalor's Aura of Sadness (-2 to other's saves when Focalor is bound) For a total effective Possess Creature save DC of 36 (38 once per day) Battlefield Controller, Melee Focus (Core + ToM, only) by jameswilliamogle This was a recent request from a guy that only had Core + ToM access. I think this is a neat concept... Binder 15 / KoSS (Chupoclops) 5 1,b Improved Initiative, Combat Expertise 3 Improved Disarm 4 Ignore Special Requirement 6 Improved Trip 9 Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike 12 TWF 15 iTWF 18 gTWF The idea here is that you use Ronove, unarmed, and disarm opponents (which puts the opponent's weapon in your hands to wield with the Two-Weapon fighting the same round, which is hilarious), or trip them if they aren't armed. TWF and iTWF are to use w/ your unarmed strikes (which I believe works, from the FAQ, but even if it doesn't, just arm yourself, make normal attacks from your unarmed strike, then off-hand attacks w/ your weapons). You can bind Chupoclops for pounce, bite, and ethereal watcher, Zagan for >improved grapple and aversion (never, ever, underestimate the aversion power of Zagan: its wicked powerful). You can become a good battlefield controller by targeting the meat w/ aversion, then grappling the softies: deadly. edit: Deadly Defense (CS) is a GREAT addition to this build, as it'll add +d6 damage with ALL natural attacks when using Combat Expertise for 2, which you can do while grappling. Earth's Embrace adds a lot, too. Here's an entry from the complete gish thread. 1 Binder 1 Improved Binding, Supernatural Crusader 2 Binder 2 3 Binder 3 Weapon Focus (Heavy mace) 4 Binder 4 Extend Supernatural Ability (B) 5 Binder 5 6 Binder 6 Defense Against the Supernatural 7 Binder 7 8 Binder 8 9 Binder 9 Skilled Pact Making 10 Binder 10 11 Binder 11 Sudden Ability Focus 12 Binder 12 Improved Critical (Melee Touch Attack) 13 Binder 13 14 Binder 14 15 Binder 15 Supernatural Opportunist 16 Binder 15/ KtoSS 1 17 Binder 15/ KtoSS 2 18 Binder 15/ KtoSS 3 Sudden Ability Focus 19 Binder 15/ KtoSS 4 20 Binder 15/ KtoSS 5 Orthos, Otiax, Tenebrous, Shax: crazy damage touch attacks is the main schtick, here. The Boltthrower (From Yogo) Strongheart Halfling Warblade 1/Binder 3/Scout 16 4W6 Skirmish / +4(6)AC BaB 15 40 ft. Movement Stats(32 Point Buy): Str: 15 Dex: 16 +4 Level +5 Tome + 5 Wishes + 4 Paimon + 2 Race + 6 Item = 42 Con: 15 +1 Level Int: 8 Wis: 10 Cha: 12 Attack Bonus: 15(BaB) + 16(Dex) +1(Small) +1(WF) +5(GMW) = 38 Damage: 1w3+13 with GMW Feats: Bonus: Improved Binding Scout5: Point Blank Shot Scout8: Precise Shot Scout12: Ranged Disarm Scout16: Penetrating Shot 1:EWP (Hand Crossbow) 3:WF(Hand Crossbow) 6:Rapid Reload (Not needed if you have Quick Loading Hand Crossbows) - Good Choice would be Improved Skirmish 9:Crossbow Sniper 12:Two Weapon Fighting 15:Improved Two Weapon Fighting 18:Greater Two Weapon Fighting Weapons of Choice: 2 +1 Quick Loading Splitting Hand Crossbows Initiator Level 10 (Level 5 Maneuvers) Vestige Bound: Paimon Key Maneuvers: Press the Advantage (Stance - 10ft Step instead of 5ft step.) Absolute Steel Stance (Stance - +10ft Movement, +2 Skirmish AC) Fill your Maneuvers with nice Boots and Counters. This Build aims for (at least) 6 ranged Skirmishes each round (without magic), since via Press the Advantage you can move 10ft per round and still make a Full attack. Paimon gives nice Bonuses for this build, +4 Dex is always good,uncanny dodge too and Dance of Death (by RAW nothing prevents you from using it with ranged weapons) lets you shoot every enemy we run past every 5 rounds. Per Crossbos Sniper we add half of our Dex-Bonus to Damage and can Skirmish for 4d6 up to 60 ft range. We also ignore difficult Terrain, so the 10ft. step is almost guaranteed. Show Basically, we have in the end several options of dealing damage: 1. Dance of Death + Absolute Steel Stance Running past Enemys using our good movement, we can skirmish everyone we run past. Very good vs. many Targets that are not too far away. 2. Press the Advantage + Full Attack 6 Attacks without Speed/Haste/Splitting, all + 4d6 skirmish. Nice vs. few Enemies 3. Penetrating Shot I don't exaclty know if you can do that twice a round with two hand crossbows. Nevertheless, in circumstances where a lot of enemies stand in 1(2) line(es), use it. 4.Ranged Disarm Use with any tactic above if needed. If pressed into melee, grab two Short Swords, with GTWF and Weapon Finesse(Paimon) you will still hit something. +a lot of skill points and scouting potential (Small, Skills)
#6 tleilaxu_ghola Feb 02, 2007 19:24:25	I definately like the move to an open account and hope this thread will help "advance and diffuse" the awesomeness that is Binders. Also nice to have it all in one place.
#7 jameswilliamogle Feb 03, 2007 10:36:04	I definately like the move to an open account and hope this thread will help "advance and diffuse" the awesomeness that is Binders. Also nice to have it all in one place. Thanks! I love the Binder, so much so that I'm playing 2 in two different campaigns, and almost picked up one as a cohort in a 3rd (I decided to try out the Dragonfire Adept instead). This has definitely been one of the hardest classes for me to comprehend all the tricks and optimization strategies for (Incarnum classes took a bit out of me too), but after I got it, it really opened my eyes to the possibilities. I also think this is why many DMs aren't perfectly comfortable with it yet (similar to why Psionics isn't widespread, too).
#8 jameswilliamogle Feb 03, 2007 20:37:32	Looking for Binder builds and general equipment not listed above! Links, builds, etc. post 'er up!
#9 jameswilliamogle Feb 05, 2007 8:54:18	Had to put this up: I'm playing a Binder in the Savage Tides adventure path, modified to be in an Eberron setting. We're all L2, currently. There's an early BBEG Rogue, with a pet Fell Drake, that uses Gaseous Form if you drop her HP too low (I'm guessing a recurring villain, of some sort). Well, we got to her, and I had Dahlver-Nar bound, using the advice I proposed in the guide above. Sure enough, she was Sneak Attacking me about every round, w/ Improved Feint, which in turn was doing about 4 damage per round, her Fell Drake taking the other 4, thanks to Shield Self. When the Beguiler Hypnotized the Fell Drake, and rolled maximum duration dice, that put him out of the fight. And, shortly thereafter, the BBEG got to her Gaseous Form condition, and went gaseous. The Wizard, Cleric, and Beguiler had blown most of their spells for the day already, and the Warforged with Cold Iron Tracery was already down. We were pretty much guaranteed that we weren't going to kill her, and have to deal with her later. Then it hit me. I waited for my turn, told the Cleric (who we had bought a CLW wand for) and the Rogue "Stop what you are doing, and follow me!" Gaseous Form only has a movement rate of 20' per round; I've got a movement rate of 30' thanks to being human. I was able to chase down the cloud, use Shield Self on it, and the Cleric healed me while the Rogue Sneak Attacked me, every round, until the cloud finally stopped moving. The Elf wizard got in on the action, pulling out his longsword to take chunks out of my flesh, as well. It was quite hilarious. I'm adding it to the "Tips and Tricks" section.
#10 zombiegleemax Feb 05, 2007 10:07:47	New good race : Anthromorphic Ape (From Savage Species) - 2 Racial Hit dice but no LA - Get +6 DEX, +4 WIS, +2 STR - +3 Natutal Armor - Climb speed 30 - 3 naturals attacks Really good in a Paimon/Swordsage build with Shadow Blade, Wis to AC. Get DEX 28 at level 6 with DEX to attack and damage! Builds/good classes : SwordSage Mostly for getting the Shadow Blade feat. Other good feat : Telling Blow (with Malphas/Andromalius build)
#11 jameswilliamogle Feb 05, 2007 10:21:20	That sounds great! How about a build?
#12 zombiegleemax Feb 05, 2007 11:26:51	That sounds great! How about a build? Ape 2/Binder 2/ Sword sage 2/Binder +1(3)/ Knight of the sacred seal 5/... Key feat : Improved Binding at level 3 Shadow Hand at level 6 Note Weapon focus is get at Sword Sage 1 and Weapon finesse via Paimon Binding.
#13 Ed-Zero Feb 06, 2007 22:33:16	From T_G's binder thread, I think it's (the 2nd combo that is, the first one is just handy) a useful combo to take out a monster or two permanently without any fuss. Trick #1:Use Ethereal Watcher: [Chupoclops] & Move Ally: [Savnok] (at 13th level) to move your ally into the Ethereal plane as a swift action (not booting you out) so he can sit there and rest. Move yourself there with "Fast healing: [Balam] Based on level, maxes out at Fast healing 5 at 19th level" and heal up so no one can hurt you. Trick #2: How about charming a monster you don't like and making it your ally with your half-elf bard diplomancer cohort (or some other way..) and send the monster to the Ethereal plane forever? This could be accomplished with "Animal Friend: [Eurynome] All animals automatically friendly with you" so you can dispose of animal monsters chasing you down (that dinosaur causing you trouble? ). Just found this, but it seems like you can use this "Command or Suggestion: [Naberius] Command within 30 ft or suggestion (if BL >= 14) . 1/ 5 rnds." to make a enemy your friend, command him to get naked (don't want to lose his loot after all) and then teleport to the Ethereal plane and switch places with him.
#14 jameswilliamogle Feb 07, 2007 8:23:27	From T_G's binder thread, I think it's (the 2nd combo that is, the first one is just handy) a useful combo to take out a monster or two permanently without any fuss. Trick #1:Use Ethereal Watcher: [Chupoclops] & Move Ally: [Savnok] (at 13th level) to move your ally into the Ethereal plane as a swift action (not booting you out) so he can sit there and rest. Move yourself there with "Fast healing: [Balam] Based on level, maxes out at Fast healing 5 at 19th level" and heal up so no one can hurt you. Trick #2: How about charming a monster you don't like and making it your ally with your half-elf bard diplomancer cohort (or some other way..) and send the monster to the Ethereal plane forever? This could be accomplished with "Animal Friend: [Eurynome] All animals automatically friendly with you" so you can dispose of animal monsters chasing you down (that dinosaur causing you trouble? ). Just found this, but it seems like you can use this "Command or Suggestion: [Naberius] Command within 30 ft or suggestion (if BL >= 14) . 1/ 5 rnds." to make a enemy your friend, command him to get naked (don't want to lose his loot after all) and then teleport to the Ethereal plane and switch places with him. Trick 2 is great; trick 1 is, well, tricky. According to Savnok's text your ally has to be visible; if he becomes ethereal, he isn't. The soulsense ability won't work to swap w/ him w/o DM fiat. Even if you go ethereal, you still can't see him afterwards. Its a reasonable house rule to allow it, though.
#15 xylem Feb 07, 2007 12:37:19	Ape 2/Binder 2/ Sword sage 2/Binder +1(3)/ Knight of the sacred seal 5/... And Anthropomorphic animals are monstrous humanoids with good BAB and good reflex and will saves... Nice!
#16 jameswilliamogle Feb 08, 2007 13:04:20	More CustServ stuff. 3 Questions on the Binder: 1. Since Knight of the Sacred Seal lose all Su abilities if they don't bind their patron vestige, after 5th level, does this mean the Binder could potentially change type from whatever type they were to outsider and back if they expelled their patron vestige? 2. This may be a silly question, but can a Binder take Knight of the Sacred Seal twice, choosing another patron vestige, and gaining the abilities more than once (although they are redundant, except the BAB and saves)? 3. Can a binder bind the same Vestige more than once? I've scoured the book multiple times, and can't find any text that even suggests they can't. If they could, they'd get more frequent use of the 1/5 round abilities, which would seem to be the main advantage. Here's another one: 4. Ipos's Planar Attenuation ability is particularly vague in effect. If I used the ability to gain protection from the Plane of Fire, would I gain Fire Resitance of some sort? If I picked the Plane of Shadow, would I gain resistance to Shadow spells? What exactly does the ability grant? 1. They are their normal type when their patron vestige is not bound, and they are an outsider when it is bound. 2. No they cannot. 3. No they cannot. 4. Different planes can have natural aspects that affect travelers to those planes. You can see some of these in the DMG v.3.5 in the descriptions of those planes. Now if you happen to be on a certain plane, you are not harmed by that plane's natural temperatures, toxic atmospheres, or harmful side effects, but you are not protected from dangers that are not part of the plane's nature itself. For instance, if you were on the Plane of Fire, you do not suffer from the plane's side effects while there. Fire from other threats could still harm you, but the plane itself couldn't hurt you. Thanks for the info! I was curious about 3, though: why can't they bind more than 1 vestige at a time? I've got a Binder in one of my games that's about to hit 8th, and wanted to Bind Amon twice for more frequent breath attacks. Once the vestige is bound, it is bound. There is nothing in the rules that allow you to double bind a vestige. Not very satisfying, to me. It says you can bind "a" vestige... that doesn't exclude the same one twice. Oh well...
#17 zombiegleemax Feb 08, 2007 15:24:11	It's worth noting that 1 level of Binder synergized exceedingly well with the Hellfire Warlock PrC... as binding Naberius negates the penalty for using Hellfire Blast.
#18 jameswilliamogle Feb 08, 2007 15:58:39	Right, but that would be more for a Warlock handbook, as they only do 1 level of Binder. I'll mention it under Naberius's entry next time I add anything, though.
#19 zombiegleemax Feb 09, 2007 8:57:20	Great guide James, thx! Here's a little tidbit for evil Binders that really wanna make those Witch Hunters mad. Knight of the Sacred Seal 5 + Shape Soulmeld: Planar Chausible = Will Save +5 + Outsider Type + Evil Subtype = Fiend of Possession An example build (I'll call it the "Master of Souls") would be... Binder 6/ KotSS 5/ Fiend of Possession 6/ Binder 7-9 EBL 14 (16 with feat) will allow access to 7th level Vestiges BAB +14 All the FoP goodies (Ethereal at will, Possession, ect.) Cha Synergy (all the FoP abilities are Cha based Supernatural Abilities) Skills: Hide 6 (Cross-class), Knowledge: Arcana 6 Feats: Improved Binding, Weapon Focus, Shape Soulmeld (Planar Chausible), Expel Vestige, Rapid Pact Making, Ability Focus (Possession), Split Chakra, Ignore Special Requirements, Sudden Ability Focus [edit] How to maximize your Possess Creature save DC... Base Possession save DC = 10 + FoP level + Cha Bonus = 28 Veil of Allure (+2) [14k gp Sandstorm] Ability Focus: Possession (+2) Sudden Ability Focus (+2) Chupoclops's Aura of Despair (-2 to other's saves when Chupoclops is bound) Focalor's Aura of Sadness (-2 to other's saves when Focalor is bound) For a total effective Possess Creature save DC of 36 (38 once per day)
#20 jameswilliamogle Feb 09, 2007 9:13:38	Great concept! Very neat badguy. You'd need Truespeak Training and Summon Monster 4 in the build, though. edit: also, I'm not sure what you mean by the combo, or maybe I'm just not seeing it... what does Planar Chausible and the outsider type add to it?
#21 zombiegleemax Feb 09, 2007 9:31:23	Great concept! Very neat badguy. You'd need Truespeak Training and Summon Monster 4 in the build, though. edit: also, I'm not sure what you mean by the combo, or maybe I'm just not seeing it... what does Planar Chausible and the outsider type add to it? Badguy? I'm playing this right now. Binding souls to myself wasn't enough for me, I wanted to bind my Soul to someone else's like I was a Vestige. Actually, I thought of this build while trying to think of ways to raise the FoP's save DCs. To qualify for Fiend of Possession, you need the Outsider Type (provided by KotSS 5) and the Evil Subtype (provided by the Planar Chausible if you are evil). With these two, I can do this build with a human or an azurin, for example. Why do I need Truespeak Training and Summon Monster 4 in the build? [edit] I would like to point out that there is some debate as to whether Planar Chasuble gives you the Evil Subtype. It clearly states it on the Soulmelds Chart on page 54 and 55, but on page 83 in the description, it says it gives you the Extraplanar Subtype. As these do not conflict by RAW, and gaining an alignment subtype actually seems what is RAI, my build assumes this is legal.
#22 jameswilliamogle Feb 09, 2007 12:29:41	OH! Fiend of Posession! I was thinking Fiendbinder... sry. I'll have to look up the FoP; which book is it in?
#23 zombiegleemax Feb 09, 2007 13:06:37	OH! Fiend of Posession! I was thinking Fiendbinder... sry. I'll have to look up the FoP; which book is it in? Fiend of Possession is in the appendix of the Fiend Folio. It's a monster class intended for Demons and Devils. It is a very powerful class whose biggest limitation is (err...was) the relatively low Possession save DC. The Binder seems to be able to fix that nicely. I think it fits in thematically with the Binder as they both involve the sharing of souls (which Witch Hunters hate by the way). Also, I believe that the Binder should still be able to use his Supernatural Abilities while in Possession of the other creature for a double threat. Like the FoP, Incarnum also fits well into the soul theme of the Binder. [edit] I have contacted CustServ regarding the issue of whether Planar Chausible does in fact grant Alignment Subtype and they said it does not. My apologies for wasting space in this thread . Hi there Gerdreg, The table entries for the Planar Chausible on pages 54-55 are incorrect. The entry on page 83 is correct. We’ve passed this along to the good folks that make the games and hopefully we’ll see some errata covering this situation soon. Take Care and Good Gaming! We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire. To login to your account, or update your question please click here. Sam Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada) 425-204-8069 (From all other countries) Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST Customer (Gerdreg) 02/09/2007 11:43 AM Does the Planar Chasuble soulmeld grant the wearer an Alignmnet Subtype as indicated on pages 54 and 55 of Magic of Incarnum, the Extraplanar Subtype as indicated on page 83, or both? Thanks in advance for help.
#24 surreal Feb 10, 2007 3:02:00	The link to the mind's eye article doesn't seem to work.
#25 soltares Feb 10, 2007 8:44:12	The link to the mind's eye article doesn't seem to work. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070119a seems to be it's new home.
#26 jameswilliamogle Feb 13, 2007 21:15:06	Thought up a new one, for battlefield control types: Zagan + Haures + Halphax + Ashardalon: First, lay down a field of illusory snakes all around your opponent, then use the Aversion power to make the opponent move as far away from the snakes as possible. Make giant circles of dead snakes around the opponent, and confine them to a 5' square! Add on Halphax and Ashardalon, and you are an awesome battlefield controller (use the Fear effect of Ash, the walls, Imprison, and Secure Shelter abilities of Halphax to block off whichever areas you want). You could also, instead of using Haures, just have the Wizard cast low-level summon monster spells for snakes (or, using Karsus, you use wands instead), or even just have snake corpses or zombie snakes (courtesy of Tenebrous's Rebuke undead). Don't forget you have Improved Grapple plus, to deal with any of the high-will squishy opponents. I'll add it later. Also, I was rereading Zagan's abilities, and I just got to say, wow. It is THE vestige to be facing high level humanoid parties. Grapple the wizard, then use Aversion against the melee types. Just hope they don't have an active Freedom of Movement going!
#27 zombiegleemax Feb 13, 2007 22:09:59	Decent Binder build i found in the "Ulitmate Gish" contest.' "Trillith Soringeas, Supernatural Sword Class/Level: Binder 15/ Knight of the Sacred Seal 5 Race: Human Ability Scores: Str: 22 [14 + 6 Enhancement + 2 (Level)] (6) Dex: TOTAL [14 + 4 Enhancement] (6) Con: TOTAL [12 + 4 Enhancement] (4) Int: TOTAL [10 + Bonuses + Level Increases] (2) Wis: TOTAL [12 + Bonuses + Level Increases] (4) Cha: 28 [16 +5 Inherent + 6 Enhancement + 3 (Level)] (10) Tactical Statistics Hit points = 91 Initiative: +2 [+2 Dex] Move Speeds: 30 ft. [Base] AC: 31 [10 + 4 Dexterity + 10 Armor (+5 Mithral Breastplate) + 7 Shield (+5 Empyreal Heavy Steel Shield)] Conditional Modifiers: Saves: Fort: +21 [13 Base + 3 Constitution + 5 Resistance] Conditional Modifiers: +5 Sacred (+5 Empyreal Heavy Steel Shield) Ref: +15 [6 Base + 4 Dexterity + 5 Resistance] Conditional Modifiers: +5 Sacred (+5 Empyreal Heavy Steel Shield) Will: +18 [10 Base + 3 Wisdom + 5 Resistance] Conditional Modifiers: +5 Sacred (+5 Empyreal Heavy Steel Shield) Progression: 1 Binder 1 Improved Binding, Supernatural Crusader 2 Binder 2 3 Binder 3 Weapon Focus (Heavy mace) 4 Binder 4 Extend Supernatural Ability (B) 5 Binder 5 6 Binder 6 Defense Against the Supernatural 7 Binder 7 8 Binder 8 9 Binder 9 Skilled Pact Making 10 Binder 10 11 Binder 11 Sudden Ability Focus 12 Binder 12 Improved Critical (Melee Touch Attack) 13 Binder 13 14 Binder 14 15 Binder 15 Supernatural Opportunist 16 Binder 15/ KtoSS 1 17 Binder 15/ KtoSS 2 18 Binder 15/ KtoSS 3 Sudden Ability Focus 19 Binder 15/ KtoSS 4 20 Binder 15/ KtoSS 5 Class Abilities of note: Binding abilities, Patron Vestige (Orthos), Vestige’s Power, Vestige Surge. Skills of note: Knowledge (Planes) 23 ranks, Diplomacy 23 ranks, Intimidate 4 ranks Vestiges of Note: Pretty much all of them. Vestiges Typically Bound: Orthos, Otiax, Tenebrous, Shax Items of Note: +2 Heavy Mace, +5 Mithral Breastplate, +5 Empyreal Heavy Steel Shield, Tome of Leadership and Influence +5, Cloak of Charisma +6, Belt of Giant Strength +6, Vestige Phylactery x2, Vest of Resistance +5; Total: 318, 920 gp. Books Tome of Magic Book of Exalted Deeds (Empyreal Armor enhancement) Complete Arcane (Vest of Resistence) Why is this character the ultimate Gish? Trillith exemplifies Pact Magic’s use in combat. Being able to bind the full variety of vestiges, he can adapt his fighting strategy to what he needs for fighting. Knight of the Sacred Seal gives him the BAB to let him make four attacks per round. Using the vestiges above, Trillith is a monster. With Otiax, Tenebrous, and Shax, he can make melee touch attacks that deal 4d6+1d8 points of various elemental damages four times every round. He can also use Orthos’ Whirlwind Breath in addition to an at-will Displacement effect. Tenebrous’ Vessel of Emptiness also gives him an edge on movement, especially with Extend Supernatural Ability. Unfortunately, Antimagic Fields are Trillith’s bane. In them, he can’t use his Binder abilities, although his melee potential can get him out of a scrap there. He’s not a Gish be conventional standards, but he’s more than willing to fight his way into their ranks with his supernatural abilities. Aberrations/Magical Beasts etc: The majority of monsters out there don’t have much immunity to what Trillith can do. Between Whirlwind Blasts and Air Blasts, he can dish out a high amount of damage each round, if he isn’t killing them instantly with methods like Haures’ Phantasmal Killer, Marchosias’ Death Attack, or even Halphax’s Imprisonment. Between Geryon, Chupoclops, and Shax, there’s no place Trillith can’t go, and an edge in mobility is always nice. Constructs: Tough call. Golems and their kin aren’t immune to supernatural abilities, but none of the vestiges have a hate of constructs. Raw damage output is the ideal here, with the usual strategies (Whirlwind Breath, Air Blast, etc.). Dragons: Dragons don’t usually like combat, and have immunities to the elemental attacks Trillith throws out. But they enjoy more verbose challenges. Naberius’ powers of suggestion can turn a scaled horror into a source of money. And if that fails, dragons always have horrible Touch ACs. Elementals/Outsiders: Unfortunately, these guys combine the worst of dragons and constructs: Mass immunities and a lack of related vestige abilities. This means that you fight them the old-fashioned way: Sheer assault and blasting. Luckily, supernatural abilities bypass SR, and some vestiges grant energy resistance. Undead: Thanks to Tenebrous, Trillith can turn undead as a 20th-level cleric. If that’s no help to him, Whirlwind Breath can come in and save the day. Not to mention that Buer’s Gift of Healing is an ability that uses positive-energy. Traps: Paimon’s Uncanny Dodge can help Trillith dodge traps he’s set off. However, Haures’ Incorporeal Movement makes sure he never sets them off in the first place. Political Intrigue: Trillith has a thing for finding stuff out. Malphas’ birds can swoop in areas he can’t reach and listen in, and can make him invisible. Otiax will help him get into any room with Open Portal. Ipos also has a temporary True Seeing ability which will see through any nasty disguise. Diplomatic Maneuvers: Naberius is a handy player here, able to make Suggestions to people and capable of taking 10 on Bluff and Diplomacy. His many ranks in the latter help out as well. Dantalion's mind reading abilities are also useful for assessing the situation. A BBEG/ Mastermind/ Warlord: BBEGs tend to favor single combat when the heroes have gotten this far, and many tend to use brute tactics. Trillith is capable of stopping any enchantments on his foe with Karsus, and even then, he can smite from afar with his numerous supernatural abilities. Outside of combat, Trillith can get the villain's plot with a well-placed Suggesion (Naberius) or Mind Reading (Dantalion). Mobs: Mobs drop like flies to Trillith. Whirlwind Breath affects every creature in its 60-ft. cone area, and that’s a lot of damage. If they don’t fall to that, Trillith can rush in with Paimon’s Whirlwind Attack to finish them off. Overwhelming Odds: With over two dozens vestiges at his command, Trillith can do almost anything. Geryon, Shax, and Chupoclops can give him many forms of movement, letting him go places. He can get into places no one should, thanks to Maplhas and Marchosias. He can heal himself, and his saves aren’t all that bad. And of course, Orthos for the win with continuous Displacement and his superb Whirlwind Breath."
#28 jameswilliamogle Feb 13, 2007 22:49:18	Thats a nice build, and I've added the framework w/ a link to your post, but I particularly like the rundown of what the Binder would do against each opponent; I may add that to its own little SBLOCK on the second post. I've edited the handbook such that everthing that was on the front page of the old handbooks is first, and everything that didn't make it to the front page is second, and these sections have been marked with subheadings. I thought this would make it easier to read, for people that are familiar with the older handbooks. I realized something about the Triad + Dantalion combo: if you add on Naberius, and use Naberius's Skills to get Knowledge: Local [pick a region], you immediately gain like a Int + 23 ability modifier to Kn:Local ANYWHERE. And with all the Naberius abilities on Diplomacy, Bluff, and the Disguise Self ability, you just became something like a mafia kingpin, the likes of which will never be seen again. Information broker extraordinaire. Feel like starting a civil war in Hades, without getting hurt? You got it. Want to broker information about the local naga inner political circle? No problem. Do you want to find out information about a region that you've never been to, but may travel to, including local monsters, political climate, and who owns that +5 Vorpal Holy Avenger the DM has been hinting about ever since you introduced him to this combo? No big deal.
#29 zombiegleemax Feb 14, 2007 12:18:39	Binders make excellent slayers of the undead. Kas + Tenebrous + Acererak You can crit undead (and have a chance to blind them when you do), can't be critted by undead, bypass all undead damage reduction, can turn undead, detect undead, hide from undead and can speak with dead ...and beyond that you're healed by negative energy, immune to cold & electricity and can toss some added cold damage on your melee attacks ...and more. Toss in Andras and you can Smite Evil and crit more often (you can crit undead with Kas, so why not crit them more often... and possibly blind them in the process). Toss in Andromalius and remind those undead what a sneak attack feels like (again: thanks to Kas). You get the picture... ;)
#30 jameswilliamogle Feb 14, 2007 22:29:29	I had been thinking along the same lines, but didn't consider adding in Sneak Attack vestiges as well. Added to the combo section. edit: Also added a section for "Binders vs. Specific Creatures" section adapted from the Gish Thread post above. I'll put a detailed account of what my experience has been in the Savage Tides adventure path w/ my Binder, mainly as it pertains to combat and/or important interactions, without giving away any spoilers.
#31 jameswilliamogle Feb 19, 2007 13:38:45	Inspired by TG, I put in a Reports from the Trenches section, and have also added a "vs. enemy" section, using Talkho's post above as a basis. Also, bumping to save from pruning.
#32 zombiegleemax Feb 26, 2007 23:35:47	Hello, I've recently discovered the amazing classes Binder and Sword Sage. I saw the partial builds in this thread but was hoping some of you experts could help me in fleshing out a character. My DM has Ok'd the use of the Anthropomorphic Ape. My character will be joining the game at level 6. I rolled pretty decent stats undistributed so far (14, 14, 14, 16, 17, 18). So the build progression I was thinking of was this at level 6: Ape 2/Binder 2/Sword Sage 2 Stats: Str 16, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 17, Wis 21, Cha 18 For a final build at level 20 I was thinking of: Ape 2/Sword Sage 4/ Binder 9/ Knight of the Sacred Seal 5 I'm not sure what maneuvers, stances, or bindings I should look into. I've read the Handbook and the two older threads but it is overwhelming the amount of information contained in them. Thanks in advance, Siby
#33 jameswilliamogle Feb 28, 2007 10:53:32	Your build looks fine; you get the requisite +16 BAB, which is all that really matters. You also give yourself something to do in Epic: take binding levels! I wouldn't have gone 4 into Swordsage, but its your own perogative. edit: the following forgot to take into account the fact that you'll be 4 levels behind in Binding; add 4 levels and its right. Combat: Paimon is your main man at 6th; all pact augmentation goes to initiative. Add Andromalus, and Chupoclops replaces Paimon when you get access. At 15th add Otiax. End by adding Malphus to the mix. Take Improved Initiative at or before 6th, Neraph Charge at 9th (planar handbook), and Power Attack at or before 12th, and Leap Attack is good when you get into KoSS and can actually invest in Jump. Discussion: At 6th-10th you are primarily a Dex based fighter, and at 8th adding sneak attack whenever you win initiative: it helps to take Improved Initiative (activate Dance of Death at the begining of every combat). After 10th, you become a blender, adding sneak attack and a full attack at the end of every charge. At 15th, you add Power Attack damage (with Leap Attack, hopefully), sneak attack, and a full-attack at the end of every charge, and only have to make touch attacks to land them. At 20th, you add more sudden strike damage to your charges. End Result: Touch Attacks that do 2d6 damage each, plus 5d6 sneak attack each, plus 6d6 Sudden Strike each, plus 32 damage each (Leap Attack, if you make the Jump check, +16 BAB). Each one uses either your Dex or Str mod to hit, whichever is higher. Full Attack at the end of a charge which renders charged opponent Flat-footed (once per encounter per opponent). All but the bite attack of Chupoclops can be used 10' away. Also, 20% concealment, no loss of AC other than 2 on a charge (unlike Shocktrooper builds), a bite attack, Invisibility, Ethereal Watcher, Bird's-Eye-Viewing, Find Objects, Jester's Mirth, Poison Use, a handful of other gimicky abilities. All-in-all, a pretty wicked character. Maneuvers should enhance charging and jumping. Stances should add to attacks. Neither should be standard actions, if you can avoid it. (Assasin's Stance is a no-brainer).
#34 zombiegleemax Feb 28, 2007 12:54:14	Hello jameswilliamogle, Thank you very much for your reply. It has helped me more than I can every say. Questions: 1. Why is Sword Sage 4 not great? I see that it takes away from the Binder Levels but you get the Discipline Focus (Insightful Strike) which, as I'm sure you know, adds your Wisdom Modifier to your damage rolls. If I understand it right when you are calculating damage you would add the Dexterity Modifier AND the Wisdom Modifier, in my case it would be +10 to damage for all hits. 2. If I were to take only two levels of Sword Sage and the rest in Binder I would be a 16th level Binder and with Improved Binding Feat I would have a Maximum Vestige Level of 8th. What would be the benefit of going this route? 3. The Anthropomorphic Ape is LA+0, ECL 2. Does it mean that you have to take the two level of Ape as class levels (as posted in the build) or is it treated as if I am two level below my effective character level? It really hurts to lose those two levels (to the Ape, granted I'm getting some good stat bonuses) while they could be used in a class. I guess I'm trying to understand why it is taken as class levels rather than an experience penalty. 4. Should I take the Expel Vestige? I've read in the Handbook that it is a good feat for those starting below level 12 but it seems like it's not worth it if you have a fall back skill set as in the Sword Sage. I was considering taking the Adaptive Fighting Feat at level 1. Also if my DM allows me to take a Flaw I was thinking of taking Improved Binding at level 1. Once again thank you very much for your insightful response. Siby
#35 zombiegleemax Feb 28, 2007 13:11:44	(Reply to Siby) Hunter stance is really a good stance. Scent can be helpfull at any level. You have many attacks, so boost help you more than strike. An exmple is Cloak of shadow is really great with no preriquisite. Desert wind have also good boost. Paimon is supposed to be your Knight of the Sacred Seal Vestige. +4 to DEX is really great. Weapon finesse is great but can also be taken as a feat for applying it to your naturals attacks. Before him Malphas(for bird an sudden strike damage) or Amon(extra attack) can be cool. With your high DEX, don't forget you could be a good sniper with a crossbow. Chupoclops is a really great fighting vestige and must be your when you qualify. When you can your second vestige, Buer can be a good choice if you want to fully heal your party in downtime (really great in dungeons!).
#36 jameswilliamogle Feb 28, 2007 13:30:24	Take Improved Binding as your 4th level Bonus feat; if retraining is allowed, take it early and then retrain it to something useful when you get the bonus feat. Here's the problem w/ only making bindings up to 12th: you won't be pure combat every day. Losing 8th level loses Halphax, which is one of the best crowd-control vestiges. I always favor general characters over single-role characters, though, so take it for what its worth. Adding Wis to damage again is still only 5 more points; considering the damage you'll be dishing out, I don't think you need to invest in all 4 levels of SS. You don't really need Expel Vestige; you can buy a Vestige Phylactery and do the same thing in a few levels. It is ok as a bonus binder feat, though. I just realize your character is going to have to deal w/ XP penalties, as is.
#37 zombiegleemax Feb 28, 2007 13:45:21	Hello jameswilliamogle, Thank you very much for your reply. It has helped me more than I can every say. Questions: 1. Why is Sword Sage 4 not great? I see that it takes away from the Binder Levels but you get the Discipline Focus (Insightful Strike) which, as I'm sure you know, adds your Wisdom Modifier to your damage rolls. If I understand it right when you are calculating damage you would add the Dexterity Modifier AND the Wisdom Modifier, in my case it would be +10 to damage for all hits. It is WIS to damage when using a strike. It's good but 1 strike (1 attack) mean no full attack or Paimon dance of death or Whirlwind attack. 2. If I were to take only two levels of Sword Sage and the rest in Binder I would be a 16th level Binder and with Improved Binding Feat I would have a Maximum Vestige Level of 8th. What would be the benefit of going this route? . Improved your binding! Like have your 3rd vestige faster, have access to an extra sneak attack dice with Andromalius,... But both build suffer XP penality at a moment (Ape favored class is Druid or Ranger i think). So after level 12, you could have a problem. 3. The Anthropomorphic Ape is LA+0, ECL 2. Does it mean that you have to take the two level of Ape as class levels (as posted in the build) or is it treated as if I am two level below my effective character level? It really hurts to lose those two levels (to the Ape, granted I'm getting some good stat bonuses) while they could be used in a class. I guess I'm trying to understand why it is taken as class levels rather than an experience penalty. . This mean you have 2 animal level (the proper term is Racial Hit Dice). Mean 3/4 BAB, d8 hit dice, 2+INT skill points with very few class skills, ...Read the animal type in the monster manual for more precision. Example : A Fighter 3 Minotaur is ECL 11(6 racial hit dice of Monstrous humanoid+2 LA+1 fighter). But he can be affect by Deep Sumber (the spell) because he have only 9 hit dice. 4. Should I take the Expel Vestige? I've read in the Handbook that it is a good feat for those starting below level 12 but it seems like it's not worth it if you have a fall back skill set as in the Sword Sage. I was considering taking the Adaptive Fighting Feat at level 1. Also if my DM allows me to take a Flaw I was thinking of taking Improved Binding at level 1. . Its better to take the magic item instead of the feat. Once again thank you very much for your insightful response. Siby
#38 talok_dup Feb 28, 2007 14:00:16	I hadn't realized the binder could be so potent and versatile. This makes me wat to pick up Tome of Magic ASAP. How well do binders multi-class?
#39 jameswilliamogle Feb 28, 2007 14:57:39	How well do binders multi-class? They are just below broken when combined with arcane casters and the Anima Mage prestige class. Free metamagics (like Peristant) a few times per day. They are mediocre when combined with Divine in the Tenebrous Apostate PrC (its not bad, but a Cleric that knows what he's doing will stick kick a Binder's butt: better to just play the Cleric, than to Cleric-up a Binder). You don't really want to multi w/ Roguish types or Fighter types, if you can avoid it. You could do the Rogue 1 w/ Able Learner and not lose too much, though, w/ a high Int, and still do the trapfinding role (this is a theoretical build, though: I've not seen any actual playtesting). As for most warrior classes, they don't add much to the Binder that they couldn't have already with the proper applications of feats and vestiges. Tome of Magic is a pretty good book; I think the Binder is the bread-and-butter winner in the book, but Truenamers are very interesting as well (except for that damn mechanic...), and Shadowcasters are ok, if a little weak as written. Truename magic and Shadowcasting follows a lot of what spellcasting is already; Pact Magic is pretty unique in its mechanic, I'd say (more similar to Incarnum then existing magic systems).
#40 zombiegleemax Feb 28, 2007 16:05:47	Thank you all for the great information. So the consensus seems to be take two levels of Sword Sage or drop it totally. The experience penalty is going to be a huge issue given the nature of my DM. I'm reading the wording for Anthropomorphic Characters and it says "Preferred" not "Favored" and the wording leaves it open ended for which class they can be given their diet. Also their "Type" is monstrous humanoid not animal if I read the description correctly. So my question is: Is the Ape really worth all the hassle or go with Human? I'll parse through the posts later when I have time to think. Thanks again. Siby
#41 jameswilliamogle Feb 28, 2007 16:53:48	Thank you all for the great information. So the consensus seems to be take two levels of Sword Sage or drop it totally. The experience penalty is going to be a huge issue given the nature of my DM. I'm reading the wording for Anthropomorphic Characters and it says "Preferred" not "Favored" and the wording leaves it open ended for which class they can be given their diet. Also their "Type" is monstrous humanoid not animal if I read the description correctly. So my question is: Is the Ape really worth all the hassle or go with Human? I'll parse through the posts later when I have time to think. Thanks again. Siby I'd say be a Human, or in LA buyoff, a Karsite.
#42 zombiegleemax Feb 28, 2007 18:47:05	Thank you all for the great information. So the consensus seems to be take two levels of Sword Sage or drop it totally. The experience penalty is going to be a huge issue given the nature of my DM. I'm reading the wording for Anthropomorphic Characters and it says "Preferred" not "Favored" and the wording leaves it open ended for which class they can be given their diet. Also their "Type" is monstrous humanoid not animal if I read the description correctly. So my question is: Is the Ape really worth all the hassle or go with Human? I'll parse through the posts later when I have time to think. Thanks again. Siby 2 levels for +12 bonus on stat, +3 AC, 3 natural attacks, Climb speed. It's fun also to play it. Be a monkey shaman like the one in Lion King movie.... For level after 12, just take some prestige class : - Mage Slayer - Shadow Sun Ninja - Blood Claw Master - Be dragonborn (Race of Dragon) and take fighter levels (favored class for dragonborn) - Dragon Devotee, another boosting attribute class - Uncanny Trickster, and by this way, you could improve your binding wiht the "+1 of existing class feature" - Battle Trickster - Take 3 levels of Swashbuckler (DEX+INT to damage) - Exotic Weapon master (Whirlwind at 10' with a spiked chain with tricks) - Dragon Lord - Beastmaster or Beast Heart Adept There' a lot of option, not some with extra ordinary optimisation, but your character is good enough.
#43 zombiegleemax Mar 01, 2007 11:39:42	Hi everybody, Here is what I've come up with after your advice. Ape 2/Sword Sage 2/ Binder 11/ Knight of the Sacred Seal 5 Flaw: Inattentive (-4 on Listen/Spot checks) Progression: ECL Class Feats Special 1 Ape-1 Improved Initiative, Improved Binding, [Alertness], [Toughness] 2 Ape-2 3 Swordsage-1 Adaptive Style, [Weap. Focus] 4 Swordsage-2 [Ignore Special Requirement] Wisdom Mod to AC 5 Binder-1 6 Binder-2 Power Attack Pact Augmentation (+2 Initiative), 2nd level Vestiges (Malphas mostly) 1d6 sudden strike 7 Binder-3 [Weap. Finesse] 3rd level Vestiges: Paimon 8 Binder-4 9 Binder-5 Neraph Charge 10 Binder-6 11 Binder-7 12 Binder-8 13 Binder-9 14 Binder-10 15 Binder-11 16 Binder-12/KoSS 17 Binder-13/KoSS 18 Binder-14/KoSS 19 Binder-15/KoSS 20 Binder-16/KoSS Stances: 3rd Initiator level: Assassin’s Stance - +2d6 sneak attack 3rd Initiator level: Leaping Dragon Stance - +10 on Jump checks Maneuvers: 1. Searing Charge [DW, Strike]: 30 perfect fly, +5d6 fire damage. 2. Burning Blade [DW, Boost]: 1d6 +4 3. Fire Riposte [DW, Counter]: 4d6 fire damage when opponent hits you. 4. Death From Above [TC, Strike]: Adjacent to foe, DC 20 Jump check, +4d6 damage, foe is flat-footed against this attack. 5. Soaring Raptor Strike [TC, Strike]: +4 Attack, +6d6 damage to larger creatures than me. Combos: Death From Above (TC4, M) + Assassin's Stance (SH3, S) + Malphas (Andromalius @ 3rd lvl) Bind I'm not sure if I need Neraph Charge given I have Searing Charge and other ways to make foes flat-footed. Weapons and Armor: What weapons and armor should I be thinking about? I'm thinking that Medium or Light armor and either a rapier or shortsword. I was also thinking of taking TWF and ITWF in the place of Power Attack and Neraph Charge. Since there is already a heavy fighter, rogue, monk, cleric, and ranger in the group I see my role being more of a fill in and utility type. Anyway, let me know what you think. Also I must thank LucRivNor for posting the original build with the Ape and inspiring me to delve into it further. And thanks to Jameswilliamogle and everyone else for their input. Siby
#44 jameswilliamogle Mar 05, 2007 13:24:26	bump, and added some stuff to the Tales from the Trenches: Binder in Action section, which I had to move due to length.
#45 JanusJones Mar 05, 2007 14:43:27	I'm not sure if it's been mentioned, but Tenebrous gives you the ability to do some pretty unfair things. After all, it gives you potentially LIMITLESS uses of turn/rebuke, only limited by how often you use it! In other words, you can use it to fuel divine feats. Some of my favorites include: Sacred Healing (Complete Divine): Give your party fast healing 3. All day. Divine Vigor (Complete Warrior): +10 feet of speed and +2 HP/level with one use of turn/rebuke - and it lasts for 10 rounds. Re-cast often. Enjoy! Sacred Vengeance (CW): Spend a turn attempt as a free action to add 2d6 damage vs. undead for a round. Use with natural attacks and pounce. Laugh. Glorious Weapons (Complete Divine): Give your party's weapon an alignment. Divine Might (CW): This one's particularly nice on a Binder. Spend a free turn attempt to add Cha mod to melee damage for a round. You can only do it once per 5 rounds, but with the Cha mod you'll be swinging it'll be worth it! Divine Shield (CW): Add Cha bonus to shield's AC for 1/2 your CL in rounds. Takes a standard action, but hey - with a Cha of say, 30 or so, you've got a hefty +10 AC for 10 rounds at 20th level! Hooah! I'm sure there are some I'm missing, but this is a nice starter list. Is it just me, or had anyone else noticed this? I particularly like making the Binder a sort-of "ultimate party healer" with just one feat - Sacred Healing. Yowsa. As a level dip, Rogue 3 has new significance with the introduction of Dungeonscape's Penetrating Strike 3rd level Rogue substitution. With 3 levels of Rogue, you now deal 1/2 sneak attack damage to targets that would normally be immune!
#46 zombiegleemax Mar 05, 2007 15:18:12	Hmmm, got a couple builds here copied out of my "Demonstration of Class Equality" thread. These characters are specifically designed to fight a certain way, mind you, so their strategies have holes. That doesn't reduce their effectiveness much, though. Anti-Caster: (Agares, Eligor, Tenebrous, and Ronove) Put all your Pact Augmentation points into raising your initiative score and take improved initiative. Congrats, you now have a +14 (at least) bonus to initiative rolls. Use that advantage to strike first by moving within 30 ft of an enemy and summon Agares' earth elemental, and command the elemental to grapple any wizard, cleric, druid, etc. that's giving you trouble. The Elemental grapples, pins, and covers the caster's mouth to prevent any spells coming out. Then the binder moves in and gradually punches the caster to death, using Eligor's and Tenebrous' elemental strikes to deal extra damage. Indestructible Nuker: (Savnok, Orthos, Amon, and Focalor) Call up Savnok's magic armor, activate displacement, and you're good to go! Use Orthos', Amon's, and Focalor's breath attacks and lightning strikes tyo obliterate any enemy in your path, and use your off-turns to get far enough away from combat that no one will hurt you, or defend. Unhittable Nuker: (Savnok, Orthos, Amon, and Tenebrous) Call up Savnok's Armor, Orthos' displacement, and use Tenebrous' Deeper Darkness power to make sure no one can see you. Cast Tenebrous' Flicker. Then you can move around the battlefield, hiding in your DD zone while you use Orthos' and Amon's breath weapons and any other attacks you care to use, and flicker away if anyone takes a shot at you. Flicker, DD, and displacement each grant you a seperate 50% miss chance for attacks, so let them just try to strike you down.
#47 JanusJones Mar 05, 2007 16:05:52	Let's add the Hide in Plain Sight-er: Tenebrous, Marchiosas. This one's very simple. Get the Darkstalker feat from Lords of Madness. Take at least one level of Rogue and the all-time best feat EVER, Able Learner. Put max ranks in Hide and Move Silently. Use Deeper Darkness from Tenebrous and Marchiosas's +16 to Hide and Move Silently. You can now hide and take full actions at only a total of -4 to your base roll - and you won't be seen unless the enemy can see in magical darkness. Enjoy!
#48 jameswilliamogle Mar 05, 2007 18:29:57	I'm not sure if it's been mentioned, but Tenebrous gives you the ability to do some pretty unfair things. ... I'm sure there are some I'm missing, but this is a nice starter list. Is it just me, or had anyone else noticed this? I particularly like making the Binder a sort-of "ultimate party healer" with just one feat - Sacred Healing. Yowsa. As a level dip, Rogue 3 has new significance with the introduction of Dungeonscape's Penetrating Strike 3rd level Rogue substitution. With 3 levels of Rogue, you now deal 1/2 sneak attack damage to targets that would normally be immune! The unlimited Turns has been mentioned before. See this, though: http://boards1.wizards.com/leaving.php?destination=http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php%3Fp%3D11326619%26postcount%3D181 Also, w/ the 3 Binders I've played so far, I haven't met a DM that would allow temporary abilities qualify me for feats (there's always the Cleric 1 dip, though...). Dungeonscape did add a bit to the binder, potentially. On top of the Rogue 3 dip, the Ranger 1 / Able Learner variant also adds a bit. The Barbarian variants, too, since Survival gets a bump from Buer. The Tenebrous thing is interesting... I thought that it said you can't hide in it like all the other unlimited darkness class abilities, but I was wrong... I'll definitely add that combo (that's wicked good w/ March., too). @Prator: Could you post a link to that thread? I'm not familiar w/ it. The Anti-Caster works better w/ Zagan: Grapple the caster yourself, then use aversion on the meaty types so they can't get in there with you. Also, you still get to use your Su powers while grappling, which could mean summon the earth elemental anyways. Also, Tenebrous's Flicker ability is usable only a really limited number of times per day; its not too reliable (it is a nice bonus on top of the DD effect, though). DD is only 20%, but it still is nice. The 4-vestige combos are a little much, imo: waiting till 20th level just to get them is very academic, considering there's no Epic Binder support currently.
#49 zombiegleemax Mar 05, 2007 20:20:49	Anti-Caster: Chances are the average earth elemental has a higher strength score than the binder, even when you factor in the benefits of imrpoved grapple. Plus, the higher level you are, the bigger the elemental gets, and the more powerful it becomes (not to mention the size bonus to grapple checks). The Huge earth elemental at level 20 is something I'd bet on in a grapple against almost anything. Tenebrous' flicker, while usable a limited number of times per day, lasts a number of rounds equal to your binder level. You'd have to be a lvl 20 binder to pull off the build I described above, and by that level, you get 3 uses per day at 20 rounds each. 60 rounds of Flicker doesn't sound too bad to me. In any case, they're just ideas. There are 4-vestige combos on the lists already, so I thought I'd bring these up for scrutinu. Here's the Demonstration Link. It's just a thread I started, hoping to show people how all classes are (roughly) equal because any given class has a weakness that some other given class can easily exploit. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=799715
#50 JanusJones Mar 05, 2007 21:50:22	The unlimited Turns has been mentioned before. See this, though: http://boards1.wizards.com/leaving.php?destination=http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php%3Fp%3D11326619%26postcount%3D181 Also, w/ the 3 Binders I've played so far, I haven't met a DM that would allow temporary abilities qualify me for feats (there's always the Cleric 1 dip, though...). Dungeonscape did add a bit to the binder, potentially. On top of the Rogue 3 dip, the Ranger 1 / Able Learner variant also adds a bit. The Barbarian variants, too, since Survival gets a bump from Buer. The Tenebrous thing is interesting... I thought that it said you can't hide in it like all the other unlimited darkness class abilities, but I was wrong... I'll definitely add that combo (that's wicked good w/ March., too). @Prator: Could you post a link to that thread? I'm not familiar w/ it. The Anti-Caster works better w/ Zagan: Grapple the caster yourself, then use aversion on the meaty types so they can't get in there with you. Also, you still get to use your Su powers while grappling, which could mean summon the earth elemental anyways. Also, Tenebrous's Flicker ability is usable only a really limited number of times per day; its not too reliable (it is a nice bonus on top of the DD effect, though). DD is only 20%, but it still is nice. The 4-vestige combos are a little much, imo: waiting till 20th level just to get them is very academic, considering there's no Epic Binder support currently. Whether you've had DMs allow it or not, it's a fact: if you have access to the ability, you're qualified for feats dependent on it. Hell, access to SPELLS qualifies you for certain feats - if you can get Enlarge Person (be it from a spell, a potion, a wand, etc.), you qualify for Knockback (which requires you to be large size). The CustServ answer is about the least specific, fluffy answer you could ask for. Yes, you should always remember that the DM sets the style of play. However, according to the rules (and this was introduced back in Complete Warrior, I believe), you can qualify for feats with prerequisite abilities if you have the means to meet the prerequisites - even if the effect is not permanent. This is how people polymorph themselves into beholders to use the beholder mage class. First cast Polymorph Any Object to gain the right type, then again to polymorph yourself permanently. Granted, you can't use a feat if you don't currently have the effect in question. Still, I think that CustServ response was a pretty well-written party line that does little to excuse WotC's current policy of "light-to-no play testing before publication." Sorry if I sound bitter. I just wish they'd edit their books more carefully and employ some people with more extensive knowledge of the rules. . . . like ME, for instance!
#51 jameswilliamogle Mar 05, 2007 22:04:14	Whether you've had DMs allow it or not, it's a fact: eeee, lets not go down that road, k? Who knows whats intended, whats legal, and whatnot, right (just detracts from the thread)? I'll put them in the feat section, which is pretty sparse anyways, and just put a footnote on them (the general "consult w/ DM ahead of time" disclaimer), k? The CustServ answer may have been fluffy, but it has as much weight on what the rules are supposed to be as the CWar text that contradicts it completely, as lame as that is. When in doubt, I always lean towards what I envision a real DM would allow. small rant p 16 CWar has what happens when one no longer qualifies for a PrC (loses almost all the class abilities). The SRD says what happens when a character no longer qualifies for a feat (can't use it). The SRD also says "Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat". Its the "other quality" thing that allows non-standard qualification, and causes all the problems: how long do you need the quality? And, what is "other quality"? Does this only mean things that aren't the former??? If yes, then no, characters w/o actual levels can never qualify for things like evasion and such, which sucks the air out of a dead donkey's butt. This seems to be what the custserv ruling suggests.
#52 Richmud Mar 06, 2007 7:04:27	If nothing else the level of cleric and reliance on tenebrious leads us to a the tenebrious apostle PrC
#53 pyro_cat Mar 06, 2007 7:34:27	If I wasn't up to my neck in schoolwork right now, I'd do it myself; but I think it would be great if all the vestige combos could be organized (instead of by function) by level avaliable. They could still be subcategorized into "Caster", "Combat", and "Miscellaneous", but a level-by-level breakdown would be much more efficient for the quick scan. That way, when I level up my hypothetical Binder, I can just pop over to the handbook and take a peek at level 6 to make sure I'm not missing any potential cleverness.
#54 jameswilliamogle Mar 06, 2007 7:49:49	If I wasn't up to my neck in schoolwork right now, I'd do it myself; but I think it would be great if all the vestige combos could be organized (instead of by function) by level avaliable. They could still be subcategorized into "Caster", "Combat", and "Miscellaneous", but a level-by-level breakdown would be much more efficient for the quick scan. That way, when I level up my hypothetical Binder, I can just pop over to the handbook and take a peek at level 6 to make sure I'm not missing any potential cleverness. hmmm, thats a good idea. I'll have to think about how to format it, b/c the amount of data to sift through is pretty sick.
#55 surreal Mar 06, 2007 9:53:20	Or you could just simply append a note at the beginning of each combo saying which level is required. Something like a simple before the combo for example would be simple enough.
#56 pyro_cat Mar 06, 2007 9:58:18	Or you could just simply append a note at the beginning of each combo saying which level is required. Something like a simple before the combo for example would be simple enough. Yeah, that works, and it's easier. Then you could just do a *control f* thing and look up everything appropriate for your level. Though if this is going to go through a refomatting anytime soon, organizing the bulk of the information by what level it's appropriate for would be best, in my opinion. Obviously all the basic information and stuff that's relevant 1 - 20 would stay more or less as-is, but anything specifically requiring higher level resources to achieve could be organized as such. I only say this because so much of what's in the handbook now (and rightfully so, I'm not complaining) is combos of some sort, leading to this guide, moreso than others, benefiting from a different format.
#57 jameswilliamogle Mar 06, 2007 12:27:43	I like that idea; I don't have much time to work on it today, though. I thought of another combo, JJ's post above as inspiration: [Tenebrous] + [Savnok] + [Malphus] + [Marchosias] + Battlejump (Unapproachable East): Summon the bird using Malphus, and have it fly above your enemy (at least 10'). Use Savnok's Move Ally ability to switch places with it. Since you've fallen at least 10', you get extra damage from Battlejump, and activate a charge. As you're falling, make a Hide check (+16 thanks to Marchosias); Tenebrous's Deeper Darkness allows you to make the check. You get all of Malphus's Sudden Strike damage on top of that as well, now. If you have Able Learner, and Hide and Move Silent as class skills (somehow), then you can dump Marchosias and add Chupoclops so you can full attack instead, adding a Bite that can also benefit. Something silly about the combos: there's 39 vestiges. Randomly throw together 4 of them, and figure out what you can do that's unique, and you get a new combo. Seriously: try it!
#58 jameswilliamogle Mar 06, 2007 14:13:10	I guess I did have time... The biggest problem that I see is that there's not much in the way of low-level feat combos, just a small section I wrote that was more to do with strategy than anything else.
#59 JanusJones Mar 06, 2007 14:19:30	Nice!
#60 Richmud Mar 07, 2007 20:31:18	New vestiges in the cityscape web enhancement Take a look here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a
#61 jameswilliamogle Mar 07, 2007 21:09:15	New vestiges in the cityscape web enhancement Take a look here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a First thoughts: OMG PWNZERZ!Q!!!Whoa!!! L4 Astaroth: Angelic Lore, Asaroth's Breath, Honeyed Toungue, Master Craftsman, Word of Azaroth So now the Binder can act as a cheapened version of an item creating Warlock, needing to pay for the casting of spells (or using Karsus and a spell trigger item), and can make items. Honeyed Toungue?! as if the binder NEEDED another diplomacy and bluff boost... Bardic Knowledge is always good, and Suggestions on 2-3 people are great! Cone effect nauseation for a round is great, but doesn't seem as powerful as the other abilities. L6 Desharis: City Dweller, Infinite Doors, Language of the City, Smite Natural Soul, Spirits of the City So, Infinite Doors seems awesome for any urban game: bad guys ambush you, and things go bad, no prob. Combine w/ Flicker from Tenebrous, and you can get nearly anwhere you want: Flicker to get to a door, and pop in front of the town guard, for example. Toungues among humanoids is meh, since agares gives you a better version. City Dweller gives you +6 Kn: Local and Gather Info, but it doesn't specify which Kn: Local: combine w/ Naberius, as one of the combos in the main section, and take Kn:Local for any region you ever want to visit (including other planes!). BUT.... Animate Objects at your EBL? That's... just... wicked... yeah, definitely, there's gonna be some combos w/ these... I'll add them to the main page, poste haste. How bout this for a combo: Desharis, Halphax, Haures, Zagan: Emulates Animate Objects, Antipathy, Phantasmal Killer, Imprisonment, Major Illusion. Also gets you Improved Grapple, and this doesn't limit what other abilities you can use. Talk about battlefield control!
#62 zombiegleemax Mar 12, 2007 15:21:08	Wow. With magic like that, you wouldn't even have to deal damage. You could just confuse your enemies until their heads exploded.
#63 zombiegleemax Mar 14, 2007 8:55:22	wow, the posts have really picked up and with good insights also. My DM changed his mind and is now not letting me play the Anthropomorphic Ape so I'm thinking of going Human but not sure if I should drop the two level dip in Swordsage given I won't have great wisdom.
#64 jameswilliamogle Mar 14, 2007 11:06:06	wow, the posts have really picked up and with good insights also. My DM changed his mind and is now not letting me play the Anthropomorphic Ape so I'm thinking of going Human but not sure if I should drop the two level dip in Swordsage given I won't have great wisdom. I'd say build a human "generalist" binder, since you can't go min-max on the dex this way. This would entail Imp. Binding (hopefully, retraining will be allowed), Weapon Focus: (probably morningstar), and getting into KotSS soon (or waiting until 10th for Chupoclops). You still get to do a lot w/ a straight binder. See if your DM would allow you some XP past 6th so you could make some items w/ the new vestige Astaroth before campaign comencement.
#65 jameswilliamogle Mar 14, 2007 20:02:24	Well, the new Item Creation ability of Astaroth was bothering me... For Astaroth (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a), how does the Binder use the item creation ability if he doesn't have the requisite caster level? Was his Binder Level meant to qualify as caster level, or is he required to get a spellcaster of significantly high caster level to cast the spell for item creation? Although I see under item creation that for most items a different caster can produce the spell, I don't see where it says that the "other" spellcaster can also "donate" his caster level for item creation. Could you give an example about how a Binder would use the ability, because I'm fairly confused about it? Hello James, Unfortunately there is no information to answer this for us. It will be up to the Dungeon Master to adjudicate it as he sees fair and fit. Good Luck and Game On! Wha?! So, there's no way to know how it was supposed to work?
#66 zombiegleemax Mar 15, 2007 7:33:03	Astaroth (Cityscape Web Enhancement) - Angelic Lore, [bold]Asaroth's[/bold] Breath, Honeyed [bold]Toungue[/bold], Master Craftsman, Word of [bold]Azaroth[/bold] [bold]Text in bold[/bold]: Is it supposed to be "Asaroth" or Astaroth? "Toungue" is misspelled. Is it supposed to be "Azaroth" or Astaroth? Trying to help in what little way I can.
#67 jameswilliamogle Mar 15, 2007 15:28:57	Thx. Updated the first posts: they are now colorful. Also, added a handful of combos, and categorized the existing combos w/ 2-3 word descriptions of what the point of the combo was.
#68 Momar Mar 15, 2007 15:44:18	Am I the only one who thought of Scooby Doo when reading Infinite Doors?
#69 jameswilliamogle Mar 16, 2007 9:59:54	Am I the only one who thought of Scooby Doo when reading Infinite Doors? Yes. Yes you are. Which would be funny, except that its only once per day. I wonder if you could animate a door, permanantly, then have it follow you around, for always being able to use the ability? Kind of Dr. Who-ish...
#70 Richmud Mar 17, 2007 20:32:30	I wonder if you could animate a door, permanantly, then have it follow you around, for always being able to use the ability? Kind of Dr. Who-ish... It specifically says the door must be attached to a building, so you would need to animate a whole building (maybe a small shed would work {and be even more Dr. who-ish when you paint it blue})
#71 symphonic_tempest Mar 18, 2007 0:22:08	Random question - I'm trying to create a good "unarmed" combo, and am having a bit of trouble. It's just for the day (in-game), so I'm not fooling around with class dips or feats or anything, just trying to pick the right three vestiges. At lvl 15, what is the best three-vestige combo and pact augmentations for a day of unarmed fighting? I was looking at vestiges like Amon, Chuc, Zagan, Ronove, and Ipos, but didn't know what the best combo would be. Thanks!
#72 jameswilliamogle Mar 18, 2007 9:13:23	Random question - I'm trying to create a good "unarmed" combo, and am having a bit of trouble. It's just for the day (in-game), so I'm not fooling around with class dips or feats or anything, just trying to pick the right three vestiges. At lvl 15, what is the best three-vestige combo and pact augmentations for a day of unarmed fighting? I was looking at vestiges like Amon, Chuc, Zagan, Ronove, and Ipos, but didn't know what the best combo would be. Thanks! actually, last night I put in a pretty wicked combo for this sort of build; its the last one under the "new combat" combos. It gets 8 attacks per round, all w/ good bonuses on damage. Whatever you do, you want Chupoclops in it, and Ronove: this will get you pounce and iterative monk damage unarmed strikes, and a bite attack. For the third vestige, its debatable: either Ipos or Zagan would be good: Zagan gets you a grapple attack w/ your 3rd iterative attack (which would be great since you'd only have a low attack bonus anyways, so initiating a grapple w/ that last attack would rock); Ipos gives you 2 claw attacks and rend, but not much else. Grappling is a great idea in this combo, since you can get your unarmed strike damage off as well as all your natural attacks. You really can F*** some people up w/ this combo; put all your pact augmentation into initiative, and the NPCs won't know what hit them until they're dead. ANY combination of Chupoclops, Ipos, Ronove, Otiax, and Zagan would be really good: since Amon would require Ignore Special Requirements as a feat, I wouldn't pick it up.
#73 symphonic_tempest Mar 18, 2007 11:24:38	Hmm...Ronove was actually the first vestige I'd counted out, but then, I don't quite understand how her improved unarmed strike works. What exactly is the benefit of "iterative monk damage unarmed strikes"? Do those attacks mesh with Ipos' claws, or do I become ineligible because now I have natural weapons? I had personally been looking at a pounce/charge combination with Amon and Chuc (I already have Ignore Special Requirements) - Amon gets extra damage on a charge with Chuc's pounce. I'm pretty sure I want Zagan for the "grapple the softie, use aversion on the nearest threat" combo, but I also want to be doing decent damage per round, for which I thought Ipos was my best bet, with (1d6+Str)x2+Rend. He'd also give me more power in Amon's fire attack when I used it, but that's really a side note since it's not my primary focus. It sounds like Chuc, Ronove, and Zagan is the best bet for what I want - I'll keep Ipos and Amon in the phylacteries (I love phylacteries) if I want to play around with it. Could you explain Ronove's attacks, though, please? Thanks.
#74 jameswilliamogle Mar 18, 2007 12:59:54	Ronove's unarmed strikes do damage as a monk = to your binder level, and you get the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. That's it. If you use an unarmed strike, you get iterative attacks based on BAB. You can't make iterative attacks from high BAB with natural weapons though; you just get 1 attack per round per natural weapon (I think its a silly mechanic, personally, but maybe it'll get changed in 4.0). Unarmed Strikes do NOT necessarily make use of your fists: it could be an elbow, a headbutt, a knee to the groin, etc., so you could have Ipos bound for 2 claw attacks and get a full attack routine from Ronove as well (the claws have -5 as secondary natural attacks, though). Its a bit complicated, but I learned a lot from the totemist threads floating around here.
#75 symphonic_tempest Mar 18, 2007 15:33:42	I think I understand what you're saying about Ronove's attacks - many thanks. So, if a 15th level monk does 2d6 unarmed damage, and a 15th level binder gets +11/+6/+1 to his attacks, then with Ronove bound I can make 3 unarmed attacks for 2d6+Str each at those attack bonuses, per round? What is my attack bonus for Amon's horns, Ipos' claws, or Chuc's tusks if I use them in the same round? And for clarification, I don't get to use Flurry of Blows attack bonuses, right? Sorry, hopefully that's not too many questions.
#76 jameswilliamogle Mar 18, 2007 22:30:57	no flurry. attack bonus for secondary natural attacks = normal attack bonus - 5.
#77 caliborn Mar 31, 2007 8:06:49	So, if a 15th level monk does 2d6 unarmed damage, and a 15th level binder gets +11/+6/+1 to his attacks, then with Ronove bound I can make 3 unarmed attacks for 2d6+Str each at those attack bonuses, per round? What is my attack bonus for Amon's horns, Ipos' claws, or Chuc's tusks if I use them in the same round? And for clarification, I don't get to use Flurry of Blows attack bonuses, right?\ Yes. +6. No.
#78 keldrin Apr 17, 2007 12:22:08	I really apreciate all the effort that has gone into giving us these wonderful Binder threads, I review them often. Thank You
#79 zombiegleemax May 05, 2007 8:19:16	I am playing a 11 level binder(6) Kots(5)(andras as my patron). I wanted to ask: if I'm bound to Chupoclops and andras, and I use andras horse to charge with a lance, and then I do two lance attacks with the pounce ability, do both attacks do double damage?
#80 zombiegleemax May 05, 2007 13:05:52	I'll repeat what I said in the Player's board: No.
#81 jameswilliamogle May 05, 2007 14:11:27	I'll repeat what I said in the Player's board: No. can you explain that? i think it does. he did charge, after all.
#82 jameswilliamogle May 25, 2007 9:05:03	A combo I just thought of... really basic. Chupoclops + Malphus: Basically, you activate invisibility, then scout around. One round before invisibility becomes deactivated, you activate Ethereal Watcher and do nothing. After 5 rounds, you go invisible again (and return to the Material). Voila, you are invisible as long as you want!
#83 dm_fiery_fist May 26, 2007 15:53:58	I really appreciate all of the effort that has been put into organizing this binder handbook, I've found it immensely useful for the binder that I am playing in Expedition to the Demonweb Pits. Keep up the good work! I'll definitely share any other combos I come up with.
#84 Harliquinn May 26, 2007 17:04:38	can you explain that? i think it does. he did charge, after all. I guess it depends upon whether your mount charging triggers your pounce ability. I would personally say 'no' as a DM, but I can't find rules for or against it specifically. Lances and charging mounts are mentioned specifically. You get the same bonuses / penalties that your mount does when it charges, but I don't know if you are actually considered charging. The wording would seem to imply you aren't charging (by the definition of what charge is) because it says this: If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. By definition a charge is a full-round action that allows you to move double and take an attack. The above quote seems to indicate you aren't the one charging, your mount is. Harliquinn
#85 bensan May 26, 2007 17:05:13	A combo I just thought of... really basic. Chupoclops + Malphus: Basically, you activate invisibility, then scout around. One round before invisibility becomes deactivated, you activate Ethereal Watcher and do nothing. After 5 rounds, you go invisible again (and return to the Material). Voila, you are invisible as long as you want! An added bonus here is that commanding Malphas's bird is a non-action, so you can have it continue to scout around while you're in your ethereal "downtime". Chupoclops also enhances your invisible scouting directly. Since a five-foot step is not a move, standard, or full-round action (the three conditions that end Ethereal Watcher) you can slowly drift through walls and move in three dimensions, circumventing a lot of things that would normally be obstacles to scouting.
#86 jameswilliamogle May 26, 2007 19:08:23	Yeah, that is nice! You could also add Andras to get a free Earth Elemental to command to attack, too. Or, give that elemental a sack, and then slowly travel ethereally to the king's jewels :D.
#87 jameswilliamogle May 30, 2007 10:25:49	lol, another one... [Ronove] + [Chupoclops] + [Zagan] + [Karsus] + KoSS 5: Insane Grappling combo! Charge in, getting a full attack (Pounce from Chupoclops), but initiate a grapple instead (you are considered Large thanks to Zagan). Now, you'll do (monk unarmed damage, probably 2d10) + d8 + 2.5 X Str for each grapple attempt (should be 4) PLUS another d6 + Str when you bite, each turn. Karsus is there to dispel any freedom of movement effect, and any other buffs that are on your wrestling buddy :D.
#88 Xeraph May 30, 2007 14:15:51	Nice touch with the Karsus "just in case" mechanic.
#89 jameswilliamogle May 31, 2007 8:44:40	I guess it depends upon whether your mount charging triggers your pounce ability. I would personally say 'no' as a DM, but I can't find rules for or against it specifically. Lances and charging mounts are mentioned specifically. You get the same bonuses / penalties that your mount does when it charges, but I don't know if you are actually considered charging. The wording would seem to imply you aren't charging (by the definition of what charge is) because it says this: By definition a charge is a full-round action that allows you to move double and take an attack. The above quote seems to indicate you aren't the one charging, your mount is. Harliquinn If you are correct, then you can steer your mount as a free action, and then full attack, anyways, but just not be considered charging. I admit, this might be the case, too. It definitely makes non-pounce mounted characters much more easier to build, though. I'd be more worried about low-level gishes using Phantom Steed in every dungeon with buffing than with the few ways to get pounce, were I a DM. It also makes the town guard much more lethal. :D *************************** Anybody notice Haures's Major Image ability? You cast Major Image at your Binder level, with the only difference being that the duration = your BL, ie, it doesn't require concentration! By the time you can bind Haures, you have a 20X20 plus 8 10X10 squares of illusion! And that lasts for 10 rounds! Which means 2 Phantasmal Killers! And, you can bind Chupoclops, too, for etherealness while your ability recharges. And, since its a Su ability, there's no way (I know of) to dispel it, either, if they fail their save. Talk about lethal!
#90 jameswilliamogle Jun 06, 2007 21:41:40	Just got my copy of Complete Champion: Tenebrous + Devotion Feats: Just. Broken. Simple combos that will make your DM hate you. Animal, Air, and Water were my favorites.
#91 bensan Jun 06, 2007 22:18:45	Tenebrous never gives you multiple rebuke attempts to spend at once, so you wouldn't be able to recharge most domain feats with his ability. Water Devotion, Strength Devotion, Sun Devotion, Healing Devotion, Good Devotion, Evil Devotion, Earth Devotion, and Destruction Devotion are the ones it looks like it would work for. However, by the way the feats (rather than the contradictory description at the beginning of the section) are written, it looks like you may be able to load up "charges" of your devotion feats by expending your every-five-rounds rebukes as they come up throughout the day.
#92 jameswilliamogle Jun 07, 2007 8:32:05	Tenebrous's Rebuking/Turning is a poorly worded ability, and I think you could argue it either way (hence, why I mentioned the DM dependence).
#93 feeb Jun 08, 2007 13:21:00	I know it's poor form to "reserve" a post, but I got the latest issue of Dragon in the mail yesterday. There are some interesting additions to the vestige roster. I'll edit my post later to include a summary of those vestiges and their powers. By personal fav. is a vestige that grants the ability to cast Blasphemy. I believe that CL = Binder Level for this particular ability.
#94 jameswilliamogle Jun 08, 2007 14:35:32	By personal fav. is a vestige that grants the ability to cast Blasphemy. I believe that CL = Binder Level for this particular ability. which number is it again???
#95 feeb Jun 08, 2007 16:41:18	357
#96 feeb Jun 11, 2007 22:30:12	I apologize for two posts back to back, but wanted to give this one a bit of a bump by adding "fresh" content. So Dragon 357. Very awesome issue, very worthwhile purchase, imo. Binder specific stuff: Starts on pg. 66. This material is part of the "Savage Tidings" article and is a direct hook into the Savage Tide Campaign Arc. We get 3 new vestiges (detailed below) and three new teeth of Dahlver Nar, one for each new vestige. All three vesitages have ties to the Abyss. Please note that all the vestiges have special requirements. Further, the legend, sign and influence for all vestiges are very thematic, and as such, I can only recommend you review the article as you are able. There is also a bit of text at the end regarding summoning specific demons, as well as some examples/potential npcs (for DM's this could be an attractive option) and some flavor text/fluff about the abyss. On to the meat of the post: Ansitif - 7th level vestige, Binding DC 30, Granted Abilities: Blasphemy 3/day, Effective Binder level = caster level; Spell resistence to divine spells and SLA's; Immunityto fire; Gain the benefit of the Thrall of the Demon feat. Astaroth - 4th level vestige, Binding DC 20, Granted Abilities: Blackflame, abilities/spells/sla's with [fire] descriptor do 1/2 fire and 1/2 vile damage AND cast Fireball 3/day; cast Divination (not listed but I assume 1/5rounds); untyped bonus to Bluff and Disguise equal to binder level; all natural and unarmed attacks are treated as being silver weapons. Cabiri - 4th level vestige, Binding DC 18, Granted Abilities: Arcane Eye 1/5 rounds; +10 on DC tp spells of the [scrying] subschool; darkvision 60' and lowlight vision or +60' darkvision; Phantasmal Killer 3/day. Let me know if I need to redact this at all. Cheers.
#97 lanoitakude Jun 12, 2007 0:38:31	Wait, isn't Astaroth already a vestige found in the Cityscape web enhancement? Anyway, an untyped bonus to bluff = binder level!? Absolutely insane when combined with Naberius and the other Astaroth form the web enhancement.
#98 bensan Jun 12, 2007 1:50:11	Meh. I'm not too happy about x/day vestige abilities - it goes strongly against the flavor and mechanics established for vestiges originally. I guess it's better than no new vestiges but I feel like the people writing up the rare expansion vestiges aren't clear on how binders work.
#99 jameswilliamogle Jun 12, 2007 8:26:09	Yeah, X/day doesn't go with the flavor: better to give them weaker abilities, unlimited times per day. Still, there are precedents for this from ToM. Considering that I'm playing a Binder in Savage Tides right now, I pretty much have to buy it :D. Can you list what each ability is called? Astaroth is already a vestige, lol.
#100 feeb Jun 12, 2007 10:53:04	The article does note that there are 3 (or more) different Astaroths in D&D lore and qualfies which one is used for the article. I'll edit the above post with the actual names of the abilities later this evening.
#101 surreal Jun 18, 2007 21:58:32	Just thought I should throw this in here for someone to update later... Shield of Mercy + UMD = Unlimited Healing: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=869232
#102 deathmond Jun 18, 2007 22:13:41	Or in the case of Binders: Shield of Mercy + Andras = unlimited healing.
#103 Slad_Chaos Jun 29, 2007 16:28:53	Chupoclops : Poison bite. In the description, there aren't no poison for the bite. Is it an error ?
#104 nephelim Jul 01, 2007 10:53:46	I don't think that its an error as much as a poor choice of words. I think that the damage that is being done is the "poison" -- its just not a poison in the strict sense of the word... or even in the loose sense, but there's never been (to my knowledge) any indication of a change or correction forthcoming.
#105 The_Crimson_Dawn Jul 02, 2007 0:09:16	I think that the poison bite used to actually have poison but in development they took it away for whatever reason. After that they forgot that it still said that he had a poison bite. It makes sense for him to have poison too since he was a spider. Other vestiges have this issue too of having powers removed or changed and their descriptions were not changed so that you get confused sometimes.
#106 theiovrefos_dup Jul 10, 2007 12:03:59	i changed the first post's layout a bit. Tell me that you like it, because if you don't, i'll have to repair it xP
#107 jameswilliamogle Jul 10, 2007 12:11:23	I didn't see anything I disliked... Nice formatting on the lists by ability (you did that, I think)!
#108 theiovrefos_dup Jul 10, 2007 12:13:56	I didn't see anything I disliked... Nice formatting on the lists by ability (you did that, I think)! ok then. I'll continue later with the rest of the guide.
#109 jameswilliamogle Jul 18, 2007 9:28:12	very nice vestige here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718 lots of flavor, and looks like lots of fun! as if binders weren't weird enough as is... so now, i can have the pseudonatural template, be made of adamantine, and have huge claws and sabertooth tiger teeth (chupoclops, ipos, halphax, Zceryll)? Freakin' weird... I'll update the 1st post momentarily.
#110 scruloose Jul 18, 2007 10:20:56	very nice vestige here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718 lots of flavor, and looks like lots of fun! as if binders weren't weird enough as is... so now, i can have the pseudonatural template, be made of adamantine, and have huge claws and sabertooth tiger teeth (chupoclops, ipos, halphax, Zceryll)? Freakin' weird... I'll update the 1st post momentarily. Hmmm. Summon Alien doesn't have a duration. Anyone want to spend the rest of their character's lives summoning an army of aliens that obey their every command once every five rounds? What do people think is approriate: duration 1 round, 5 rounds, or 1 round/binder level? Bolts of Madness does not have an activation time, but standard action seems reasonable to target a ray.
#111 BloodDragon Jul 18, 2007 10:45:16	Wait, isn't Astaroth already a vestige found in the Cityscape web enhancement? Anyway, an untyped bonus to bluff = binder level!? Absolutely insane when combined with Naberius and the other Astaroth form the web enhancement. Astaroth is already a vestige, lol. In the same Dragon Mag (#357) it details how there are (or were) in fact Three creatures that go by the name Astaroth: One is a fallen angel who is now a Vestige (Cityscape) One was a Demon lord who is now a Vestige (Dragon Mag #357) And one is currently another Demon lord who rules over one of the Abyssal layers. He has not been given any stats. I believe it suggests he stole the name from one of the former. So there are legitly two Vestiges names Astaroth. Astaroth, the Unjustly Fallen, and Astaroth the Fallen Lord. I think WotC just likes the name. Also in the same month that Dragon #357 came out. A new vestige in Dungeon 147-148? (The July Issue) was reviled. I’m AFB so I don’t have any stats or a name, but I remember that you need to draw his symbol at the bottom of a Well of Darkness. A little difficult.
#112 jameswilliamogle Jul 18, 2007 11:08:54	...I remember that you need to draw his symbol at the bottom of a Well of Darkness. A little difficult. Well, not w/ the Ignore Special Requirement feat! I still have to buy these... thanks for the info! Yeah, that summon alien needs editing... At 10th level (earliest binding), you have access to the Summon Monster 5 (or below) list... How does unlimited pseudonatural Hound Archons sound? "Gimme an hour, I'll give you the weirdest army you've ever seen..." It should be 1 round / Binder level (which still gives you two creatures rounds 6-10). Also notice its a standard action, now... pretty sweet... Also, its better than the Alienist class ability: you get both the original Fiendish/Celestial template AND the Pseudonatural Template: Truestrike + Smite? Yes, please (notice that Earth Elementals have Power Attack Binder's Su abilities are standard actions, unless otherwise stated (ToM, p19).
#113 zombiegleemax Jul 18, 2007 11:19:25	Hmmm. Summon Alien doesn't have a duration. Anyone want to spend the rest of their character's lives summoning an army of aliens that obey their every command once every five rounds? What do people think is approriate: duration 1 round, 5 rounds, or 1 round/binder level? Bolts of Madness does not have an activation time, but standard action seems reasonable to target a ray. I would go 1 round per level like all the other summoned monster spells.
#114 BloodDragon Jul 18, 2007 12:00:02	Ah-ha! Dungeon Mag #148! Ahazu – 3rd level vestige, Binding DC 20, Special Requirement: Must be drawn at the bottum of a Well of Darkness. Wells of Darkness can only be found on certain layers of the Abyss, so as james said: Ignore Special Requirement is pretty much a must. Granted Abilities: Ahazu’s Abduction, Shunts a creature into a space between reality for 1 round, if the creature succeeds his will save he is immune to this effect for 24 hours, can be used every round.; Ahazu’s Touch, casts Unholy Blight as the spell, your binder level = your caster level with a successful touch attack, this is your 1/ 5 round ability; You gain Blindsight of 5 ft/EBL; Void Mind, as a standard action you become immune to all Spell-like, Supernatural, or Spells that are Mind Effecting, or effects the soul (such as soul jar and possession). If you die while in this state you can not be resurrected by means of raise dead or reincarnate. Not the best Vestige in my opinion, but I'll never say no to more options.
#115 bensan Jul 18, 2007 20:10:42	Zceryll's Summon Alien ability is simply fantastic even without the duration question. Being able to cast high-level Summon Monsters as often as you like is extraordinarily versatile. Every five rounds, you can: Create permanent objects - any plant-material objects you like, with a Craft modifier of +12 (djinn) Wall of Ice, Dimensional Anchor (bone devil) Cure Serious Wounds (bralani - at last Grandmother Buer can step aside for binder healing!) Teleport fifty pounds of stuff anywhere you want it to go (lantern archon and many, many others) In addition to having expendable combat underlings, of course. And unlike just having all those abilities on a single vestige, they'll keep acting while you do other things. The built-in telepathy guarantees that you'll be able to command them adequately. Edit: Oh, and don't forget the acid/electricity resistance, damage resistance, and spell resistance the Pseudonatural template gives you. Just as an extra bonus. Seriously, this is some awesome stuff.
#116 nephelim Jul 18, 2007 22:35:24	Combine a summoned Lantern Archon's Teleport without error, and Savnok's Move Ally... flawless unlimited distance teleportation. EDIT: Oops... re-read Savnok... Won't work.
#117 pad300 Jul 18, 2007 23:42:56	Summon Alien: You can summon any creature from the summon monster list that a sorcerer of your level could summon. Any creature you summon with this ability gains the pseudonatural template. Thus, at 10th level you could summon any creature from the summon monster I-V list. When you reach 14th level, you can summon any creature from the summon monster I-VII list. You can only summon creatures that can be affected by the pseudonatural template. Once you have used this ability, you cannot do so again for 5 rounds. From here, http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718 the new wizards article on binders in the realms. Emphasis mine... Is this vestige really good for multiclass binders? Your level, not your effective Binder level. ie Anima mages love this thing. Also, does it stack with things like Augment summoning and assorted other feats that augment summon monster spells...Finally, with regards to the duration question again, A) your level vs. your binder level, and B) As a DM I would treat it like a summon Monster spell. Also, could you potentially summon clusters of lower level monsters, like the summon monster spells (eg. 1d4+1 creatures from a list 2 below your max). PS. Clusters of Fiendish, Pseudonatural Dire weasels that have true strike built in are NASTY... http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=13009375&postcount=8
#118 bensan Jul 19, 2007 8:02:33	From here, http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718 the new wizards article on binders in the realms. Emphasis mine... Is this vestige really good for multiclass binders? Your level, not your effective Binder level. ie Anima mages love this thing. Also, does it stack with things like Augment summoning and assorted other feats that augment summon monster spells...Finally, with regards to the duration question again, A) your level vs. your binder level, and B) As a DM I would treat it like a summon Monster spell. Also, could you potentially summon clusters of lower level monsters, like the summon monster spells (eg. 1d4+1 creatures from a list 2 below your max). The answer to the Augment Summoning question and the "clusters" question would seem to be no in both cases. Augment Summoning specifically applies to creatures conjured with "a summon spell"; this is not a summon spell nor does the text make reference to any summon spell in terms of its functioning. The only reference is in terms of what creatures can be summoned. Regarding the "cluster" question, this is again a function of Summon Monster and is not mentioned or referenced in the Summon Alien ability. You can summon a creature, and that creature must be a corporeal creature off the appropriate Summon Monster lists. That's as far as the relationship to Summon Monster goes. (Why only corporeal creatures? Because that's the only restriction on legal targets for the pseudonatural template. Off the top of my head I don't think this affects the core Summon Monster lists, but I could be wrong. It does prevent you from summoning Vivacious creatures, though, if that's your thing.)
#119 womblehunter Jul 19, 2007 9:31:08	Hm. The Summon Alien ability says they get the Pseudonatural template... but not that they lose any other template they already had. So you get a Pseudonatural Celestial Dire Lion?
#120 jameswilliamogle Jul 19, 2007 9:35:31	Hm. The Summon Alien ability says they get the Pseudonatural template... but not that they lose any other template they already had. So you get a Pseudonatural Celestial Dire Lion? ...Also, its better than the Alienist class ability: you get both the original Fiendish/Celestial template AND the Pseudonatural Template: Truestrike + Smite? Yes, please (notice that Earth Elementals have Power Attack ... :D
#121 EytanBernstein Jul 19, 2007 17:29:28	After a request from some posters, I'll clarify the intent of the summoning ability and the bolts of madness. The summoning ability wasn't worded clearly enough, so here is what I intended. The summoning ability functions all ways as if you are a sorcerer of your effective binder level casting a summon monster spell. Any creature you summon that is eligible (the significant majority) has the pseudonatural template (and yes, that means you can summon a pseudonatural celestial badger if you like). Just like a sorcerer, you must use a full round action to employ this ability. The duration is 1 round/level. You can only summon one creature at a time (so you can't summon 1d3 or 1d4+1 lower level creatures). The ability is a supernatural ability, not a spell or spell-like ability, so augment summoning and any other feat that affects summoning spells do not apply, though you might find uses for feats that affect supernatural abilities. It does not provoke attacks of opportunity. You can summon additional creatures by waiting 5 rounds (each separate use of this ability has its own duration). Bolts of madness requires a standard action to use and is a supernatural ability. It does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
#122 jameswilliamogle Jul 23, 2007 10:56:09	The newest vestiges have been added to the main list by level, but I don't have time to subdivide the abilities by "role" if someone would like to do that.
#123 surrealcruelty Jul 28, 2007 2:40:24	I was looking at this forum intending to play a binder in a campaign a friend of mine is running soon. Nice stuff, saw an issue I "thought" I might be able to add an intelligent comment too (no luck there, read below). Sorry to bring up a post thats a few months old, but I could have sworn it was in fact stated officially somewhere that "temporary" abilities granted by outside sources can't qualify you for feats and prestige classes. (Reference, post link below) http://boards1.wizards.com/leaving.php?destination=http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php%3Fp%3D11326619%26postcount%3D181 Only thing I have been able to find so far is this; D&D FAQ v.3.5 39 Update Version: 06/15/07 A feat sometimes requires you to have a certain ability score, which is the case with Two-Weapon Fighting (it requires Dex 15). A character has, say, Dex 13, but wears an item, in this case gloves of Dexterity +2, and now her Dex score is 15. Can she take the feat and have it be active only when she wears the item? Actually yes, she could take the feat, but she would lose the use of the feat if, for whatever reason, she loses the bonus from the item. page 38 and 39 on the 3.5 Main FAQ. Magic Items are only slightly different from something resulting from effectively a long duration spell, but someone could extapolate from this to imply that vestiges could qualify you for a number of things. Honestly, I would normally be inclined to side with intention on this, esp since I always thought that Customer Services answer was the case, and could have sworn it was in something like the Dungeon Master's Guide. If a player were to argue with me enough about it, I would just say "ok, but you cannot use the class abilities unless you are bound to a vestige that gave you 'x' ability" I am going to keep looking periodically to see where it was actually stated in a book, but it probably will take while to find it. I was able to find this answer in probably 15 minutes of looking through the FAQ (which is where I *thought* Cust Serv's first answer had been originally stated).
#124 heffroncm Jul 28, 2007 3:27:53	Not sure if discussion on the subject of Tenebrous's Turn/Rebuke Undead being used for Divine Feats is still relevant, however... Page 65 of Tome of Magic, Tenebrous Apostate, the ability Tenebrous's Rebuke has a line that reads, "You can still use these turn attempts in conjunction with Divine feats, as normal." This would appear to be the only statement on the matter one way or another in the book, and it reads as an OK to use Tenebrous's Turn/Rebuke Undead to power Divine Feats and other uses of Positive / Negative Energy Channeling as if it were a class-granted ability.
#125 surrealcruelty Jul 29, 2007 0:11:11	In the case of the Tenebrous Apostate, with the Eternal Bondage class feature, that would be considered a permanent ability, and under the 'intent' of the designers would definatly qualify the character for feats and other prestige classes. Any character taking the class should also have turn/rebuke undead from other class level. Still looking for the text that would effectively say that ordinary binders couldnt use Tenebrous to qualify for feats like Divine Wrath, Divine Shield, Etc. I have to agree that Tenebrous in conjunction with the Domain Blessings is definatly broken. Even an ordinary binder could exploit that for unlimted uses per day.
#126 surrealcruelty Jul 29, 2007 0:15:41	bah, double post, rest of text deleted
#127 Richmud Jul 29, 2007 8:22:16	Not sure if discussion on the subject of Tenebrous's Turn/Rebuke Undead being used for Divine Feats is still relevant, however... Page 65 of Tome of Magic, Tenebrous Apostate, the ability Tenebrous's Rebuke has a line that reads, "You can still use these turn attempts in conjunction with Divine feats, as normal." This would appear to be the only statement on the matter one way or another in the book, and it reads as an OK to use Tenebrous's Turn/Rebuke Undead to power Divine Feats and other uses of Positive / Negative Energy Channeling as if it were a class-granted ability. Well its worth mentioning that it says you can use them to power divine feats not that you can use it to qualify for divine feats.
#128 grim_sage Aug 03, 2007 11:48:15	It might also be noted that Zceryll is a very nice choice as patron vestige for KotSS.
#129 menmelnjourney Aug 28, 2007 20:40:12	It might also be noted that Zceryll is a very nice choice as patron vestige for KotSS. I have been playing Binder for a while now and just started my prestige, KotSS. I am a 9/1 Binder/KotSS. I haven't had a chance to delve into KotSS but think it will go well with my party. I was wondering about some of the magic items. I have 2 of the Teeth of Dahlver-Nar. I have the Tooth of Focalor and wondered if I could get another one and have lightening strike 2X a day instead of once a day? Can I get 32 Teeth of Dahlver-Nar and some of them duplicates?
#130 zombiegleemax Sep 01, 2007 19:19:48	Using the vestiges above, Trillith is a monster. With Otiax, Tenebrous, and Shax, he can make melee touch attacks that deal 4d6+1d8 points of various elemental damages four times every round. Sorry but I don't think it works like you write on... The problem is that you can take only a single swift action for a round Let's see an example to be more explicit... binder 15, Kotss 5: binded with orthos (favored) otiax, tenebrous and shax 1°round: Standard/move actions: anything you want swift action: touch of the void (tenebrous), once/5 rounds! 2°round: Swift action:storm strike (shax) reading well, we see we can improve only one single attack with storm strike! Not all the four we have... Full attack (4) 1: Air Blast (Otiax) 2d6 + Storm strike 2d6 + touch of the void 4d8 2: Air Blast (Otiax) 2d6 + Touch of the void 4d8 3: Air Blast (Otiax) 2d6 + Touch of the void 4d8 4: Air Blast (Otiax) 2d6 + Touch of the void 4d8 3° round Swift action:storm strike (shax) Full attack (4) 1: Air Blast (Otiax) 2d6 + Storm strike 2d6 2: Air Blast (Otiax) 2d6 3: Air Blast (Otiax) 2d6 4: Air Blast (Otiax) 2d6 4°, 5° round as the 3° 6° round as the 1° 7° round as the 2°, and so on... Well, at the end it's however good, but not so powerful as you have written PS: What I've said have a sense only if Stom strike (shax) functions for one single attack in the round... On the other hand, excuse me for my mistake (even if I'm sure about Tenebrous' touch of void once/5 rounds. If you want to use it, you have to stop with Storm strike for a round, because you've only 1 swift action for round...) EDIT: Another doubt... w/ your feats, you can choose improved critical (touch spells) (as you indicate) and also weapon focus (touch spells), as prerequisite for KOTSS... But, can the binder's supernatural abilities be considered as spells (because they aren't spells...) to receive the benefits of these feats? Thanks for your answers! ;)
#131 naanomi Sep 10, 2007 18:24:46	Probably well known, but not in the guide... Hellbred (from Fiendish Compendium II) are a good race for binders... not only well fitting the 'willing to work through forbidden means to further good' motive that fit Binder heros well but also a +2 charisma race with actually useful traits. Incidentally... any +0 LA races with +Cha that don't take a Con hit??
#132 yadot Sep 10, 2007 19:32:12	According to [thread=697653]this[/thread], only the Lesser Aasimar.
#133 gigawyld Sep 11, 2007 9:10:01	Hello, i never played with binder before... Someone can teach me where is all vestges statistics(char sheets)? Who control the summoned vestige, the DM or player? I want to do a binder to lv17, and i want to know what are the best feats to choice thank you
#134 scruloose Sep 11, 2007 19:38:52	Hello, i never played with binder before... Someone can teach me where is all vestges statistics(char sheets)? Who control the summoned vestige, the DM or player? I want to do a binder to lv17, and i want to know what are the best feats to choice thank you Vestiges have no statistics, they only semi-exist. The only time they might interact with a party (barring DM plot device) is when a Binder chooses to bind one. When this happens, the DM can roleplay the vestige or simply let the binder make a roll (rollplay) and ignore the roleplaying aspects of making an agreement. Since vestiges do not exist in the normal sense, they can only speak, grant the binder his powers, and create some nifty special effects while being summoned by the binder (within the summoning circle only). The binder controls the powers granted by the vestige, but if they fail the binding roll, they are expected to roleplay some quirk (indicated in the vestiges description). If the player refuse to roleplay per the rules, a DM may take the character over; this is generally a bad idea though, better to talk to the player and get the player to roleplay correctly. Go to the 1st page of this handbook to look up the best feats, prestige classes, etc. The best feats will generally depend on the contents of the rest of the party.
#135 jameswilliamogle Sep 11, 2007 19:57:07	If the player refuse to roleplay per the rules, a DM may take the character over; this is generally a bad idea though, better to talk to the player and get the player to roleplay correctly. Not so: the binder gets a -1 to attack, saves, and checks if he doesn't make the Influence requirement. Its cumulative, though, until the Binder expels the vestige.
#136 gigawyld Sep 11, 2007 20:21:44	sCRuLooSe i friend of mine said that you can summon a vestige in current plane, with binder lv/rounds, but you can't bind with any vesige until 24 hours that you summoned the vestige. he told me that have somewhere in wizards community, vestiges statics and he used...i don't know how, but i saw he using a summoned vestige when he was DM(in eberron), and using real statistics(the amon fighted with lich)...
#137 jameswilliamogle Sep 11, 2007 21:40:22	Some vestiges are based on some popular DnD figures/deities/mythos. For example, Geryon, Tenebrous all had statistics at some point in the past (and were gods/demon princes, etc). BUT, vestiges are NOT truly summoned... in fact, even when binding them, they aren't real. There is no binder lv/rounds thing... your friend is confusing a few different mechanics from unrelated material to Binders. You really need to check out ToMagic and read the first chapter on the class. What you are describing reminds me of a person trying to play a Wizard w/o ever reading PHB or SRD.
#138 scruloose Sep 12, 2007 10:55:27	Not so: the binder gets a -1 to attack, saves, and checks if he doesn't make the Influence requirement. Its cumulative, though, until the Binder expels the vestige. I stand corrected. sCRuLooSe i friend of mine said that you can summon a vestige in current plane, with binder lv/rounds, but you can't bind with any vesige until 24 hours that you summoned the vestige. he told me that have somewhere in wizards community, vestiges statics and he used...i don't know how, but i saw he using a summoned vestige when he was DM(in eberron), and using real statistics(the amon fighted with lich)... A vestige is summoned once per 24 hours. It takes a few minutes to set up the summons unless you use feats/magic items to speed the process up. Many of the binders powers can only be used once every 5 rounds, and binder level determines if you need to roleplay the quirk I mentioned earlier, how powerful the powers you gain are, and which vestiges you can use. However, there are no 1rd/lvl effects that I can think of. As Jameswilliamogle stated, vestiges are not truly summoned. The fluff in ToM suggests that all vestiges, regardless of whether they once has statistics, no longer exist in the material plane. Karsus, for example, tried to become a deity in the Forgotten Realms setting and in the attempt destroyed himself (rather than unravel all magic). Enough of his essence (a shadow of his former existance) remains to grant powers, but he has no statistics, form, and is never actually summoned. If you want to actually summon things instead of gain power sets, I would suggest the malconvoker (look up the malconvoker handbook on this forum). If you want to summon things and use the Tome of Magic, try the fiendbinder prestige class in the truenamer section.
#139 gigawyld Sep 12, 2007 22:43:42	Thank you guys! i will research about binder and the many possibilities to do a good character
#140 lanoitakude Sep 13, 2007 3:45:34	A useful combo I just realized is: Favored Vestige(Zceryll)+Ipos Influence = Summon Monster spells 2 levels early. At BL 12, you could be summoning creatures off of the SMVII list. This is not game breaking, but very very useful. Getting the Colossal Spider at lvl 16 is rather game breaking, +50 grapple for the win! Getting the Avoral at lvl 12 sounds good to me! In your face Arcane/Divine Summoners!
#141 lanoitakude Sep 14, 2007 2:20:20	Another thought came to mind as I was browsing Tome of Magic. Otiax+Paimon+Tenebrous. Combine Whirlwind Attack and Dance of Death with Otiax's Air Blast to stay out of reach. This would allow the Binder to avoid worrying about AoO while dancing around enemies. Using Whirlwind Attack and Air Blast, you could hit everyone within 10ft with a 2d6 damage touch attack (combine with Tenebrous for 4d8 cold). The Binder would also be protected by two separate miss chances, each at 20%. At higher levels, miss chance > AC. Add to this Improved Trip (taken normally) and the Combat Reflexes feat from Otiax (improved by Paimon's +4 Dex), and you have a Binder version of the Spiked Chain tripper. Another option would be to toss in Aym for another 1d6 fire damage/touch attack. You could then toss in Geryon for 2d6 damage/round gaze. Geryon will also make it so all those enemies you just beat up can't flank you.
#142 grim_sage Sep 16, 2007 5:46:06	Report from the trenches: I just finished playing a one-shot adventure with a Zceryll-based KotSS, and the implications of the Summon (basically) at will are huge, especially out of combat. Where a normal summoning specialist will still have a limited supply of summons, and therefore be somewhat reserved about summoning, a Zceryll-bound Binder can summon lackeys to do anything. Using Djinn for transport (Plane Shift, Wind Walk) or food and materials (Create Food and Drink, Create Wine, Major Creation); Celestials for healing or other spell-like abilities, elementals for scouting... the possibilities are endless, especially since you get Telepathy as a freebie aswell. Basically, it's all the tricks of the dedicated Summoner times ten since you don't run out of spells.
#143 lanoitakude Sep 17, 2007 13:56:49	Ya, Zceryll seems like one of the most powerful lvl6 options available to a Binder (level 6 vestiges are just all round mega sexy at it is). Summoning all day long, scaling DR/SR/Resistances, telepathy (with mindsight), and a dazing bolt. Just awesome.
#144 bensan Sep 17, 2007 14:55:00	Zceryll is, as we in the profession of Science call it technically, crazy-good. Once you're able to bind her, there are very few situations under which you would want to swap her out. If it came down somehow to choosing between having Zceryll bound and having one of the level 8 vestiges bound, I would probably choose Zceryll every time.
#145 jameswilliamogle Sep 17, 2007 15:28:58	I was reading some of the original posts I wrote when I had an idea: what do you folks think about a Vow of Poverty Binder? You could use Savnok for awesome armor capability, Ronove for damage output OR use Andras, et al, for more stuff, and could fill all the weird "niche" roles the Binder can put out. Here's the thing: if the "summonable equipment" has any worth, than sure, you can't use it, but also you can now sell it in an infinite cash loop.
#146 lanoitakude Sep 18, 2007 0:36:56	A VoP binder could indeed be powerful. Said binder could, like you mentioned, use Savnok for armor. He could also use Euryenome for a weapon (though she pretty much blows). There are many options available to a binder that don't involve having gear. I'm not a big fan of VoP in general, I don't like the role-playing restrictions (you have to be SO freak'n good!)
#147 surreal Sep 18, 2007 1:09:57	I just noticed Zceryll makes you an outsider. I'm sure that's just a natural lead-in to anima mage and polymorph tricks.
#148 jameswilliamogle Sep 18, 2007 14:39:50	I just noticed Zceryll makes you an outsider. I'm sure that's just a natural lead-in to anima mage and polymorph tricks. Absolutely, but you don't need Anima Mage: Karsus + Zecyryll + Wand of Polymorph (or Alter Self) = all the outsider tricks out there!
#149 mahagon Sep 18, 2007 21:29:38	Very nice ideas I always wanted to play an anima mage, but actually we are at lvl. 18 in our campaign, and I can't find any possible way of getting access to 8th level spells and the ability to bind up to 3 vestiges at once before lvl. 19...or is there any such possibility? Would like to make my ghostform spell persitent and bind vestiges like Acererak, Balam and Tenebrous... Was it mentioned before that it is possible to enter the Anima Magus PrC at 4th level? I thought of following build... Human: 1: Wizard; Precocious Apprentice, (METAMAGIC FEAT) 2: Wizard; 3: Binder; Improved Binding I think this should allow you to enter this PrC already at 4th level...what do you think about?
#150 lanoitakude Sep 19, 2007 1:50:27	That build looks fine to me. Looks to meet all the requirements.
#151 womblehunter Sep 19, 2007 11:11:08	I thought the good thing about Anima Mage was that you could enter as a pure Wizard, by taking Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige feats? Then the Soul Binding of the Anima Mage would get you up to 10th level binding powers as a Binder? But the Tome of Magic is not my strong point.
#152 jaronk Sep 19, 2007 12:56:33	If you did that you wouldn't get the binding that comes with it. You can, however, enter with a one level dip into Binder and Improved Binding, which gets you a lot more. JaronK
#153 highbulp Oct 11, 2007 22:51:18	I'm currently working on a 9th level Binder / KotSS for an upcoming game, and I'm trying to decide on a patron vestige. For flavor/narrative reasons, I don't want to put off KotSS until I can bind 6th level vestiges, so maximum level is 5th. I'm currently having trouble deciding between Andras (though we already have a mounted charger), Paimon, Balam, and Dantalion (possibly taking levels in Scion). I'm kind of leaning towards either Andras or Paimon, since dropping out of Binder at level 6 seems better than dropping out at level 7 (which is only a +1 BAB). Paimon seems to be a little more helpful for non-combat situations, except that I don't understand the draw of his Dance of Death ability (it's listed as a win choice for KotSS in the handbook). Isn't it basically just Spring Attack but without the ability to avoid AoOs? Any thoughts? Is it worth taking that 7th level of Binder for a 9th level character in order to get someone super-cool like Balam as a patron vestige? Thanks. Also, I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned it yet (I didn't see it in the thread), but a 1-level dip into Warblade seems like a great idea with a KotSS. Not only do you get a few maneuvers to play with, but Weapon Aptitude goes wonderfully with the Weapon Focus requirement. If you happen to have a decent intelligence you can help your worst save (Ref) as well.
#154 jameswilliamogle Oct 18, 2007 10:52:08	Kind of resurrecting this a bit... Does anyone have any idea to get the most use out of Ronove's Far Hand ability? What would people use it for? My thought was to carry stronger cure potions, in case the Cleric got tied up, but can anyone think of any other? Dropping potions of Alchemists Fire (how would that work, anyways)? Also, another combo (kind of obvious now, after DFA Handbook was written), for the Arcanist / Nuker section: 1 [Amon] + Dragonborn (Heart aspect) + metabreath feats: Many DMs don't allow players to select feats based on temporarily gained prerequisites. Being a Dragonborn allows you to pick up a natural breath weapon and qualify for the metabreath feats. My picks would be Shape Breath, Clinging Breath, Quicken Breath, and Maximize Breath (Heighten Breath, while good, is overkill, imo). Entangling Exhalation is nice to use on your Dragonborn Breath Weapon. A single level of Dragonfire Adept can grant your party immunity to your breath weapon (and give ANOTHER breath weapon). Combining with Anima Mage can get you some very nice breath weapon requiring spells. Also, RAW, the metabreath feats say that you add rounds until your next breath weapon attack, but it doesn't say WHICH breath weapon (add the rounds to your weakest breath weapon ;)).
#155 jameswilliamogle Oct 18, 2007 10:54:18	Paimon seems to be a little more helpful for non-combat situations, except that I don't understand the draw of his Dance of Death ability (it's listed as a win choice for KotSS in the handbook). Isn't it basically just Spring Attack but without the ability to avoid AoOs? This is a really old question, but I'll answer anyways: Dance of Death isn't just Spring Attack: its like the Whirling Dervish's dance ability. You attack EVERYONE you move past!
#156 highbulp Oct 18, 2007 11:01:07	This is a really old question, but I'll answer anyways: Dance of Death isn't just Spring Attack: its like the Whirling Dervish's dance ability. You attack EVERYONE you move past! I figured that out eventually. The problem was that it says "any opponent" you move past, which I took to mean "any single opponent." If it had said "all opponents," I would have got it. I guess it was just my brain finding weird connotations. Thanks though!
#157 jameswilliamogle Oct 20, 2007 19:33:43	I'm fortunate to be playing in a game as a Binder and with a player playing a Warblade. I thought of a new combo, which may or may not be that good, but is kind of interesting. 12,15,20 [Chupoclops] + [Andromalus] + [Malphus] + [Leraje] + Martial Study: Fan the Flames + Swordsage levels: Its kind of high-level, due to the Martial Study being 1/2 your level, but when you get it, you approach your enemy while invisible, then you make a flat-footed touch ranged attack from 30' away, add 6d6 + sneak attack + sudden strike damage, using Leraje's Ricochet Strike to do 6d6 damage to an adjacent target. You then go ethereal w/ Chupoclops's Ethereal Watcher as a move action and can do whatever you want after that. At the cost of a 4th vestige, you could skip the feat investment, and instead just pick up some Swordsage or Warblade levels. Then, you can just repeat this technique all day long! edit: Instead of continuing to bump this thread, I'll just keep adding on this last post. for the advice section: - You only need to flank a creature for Sneak Attack, meaning Zceryl and Agares automatically can combine w/ Andromallus for some nice immediate damage. - By the time you can bind him, Zceryl summons at least Summon Monster 5 creatures. Fiendish Pseudonatural Giant Crocodile has a great grapple modifier, for example, rendering many creatures flatfooted. The large selection of monsters means you can pick and choose the best monsters to attack any given foe, and the Pseudonatural template means that you'll get at least one almost guaranteed hit in, if you want it. - Maximizing Bluff and Diplomacy at 1st level and combining with Naberius lets you pull some shenanigans the likes of which are usually reserved for Bards with Glibness. - Although the damage output at low-level sucks, Ronove at mid-to-high levels, along with Zagan, can turn your Binder into a virtuo-monk, except capable of helping the party! - Never forget that you can use Supernatural abilities under almost any conditions (as long as you are awake). Consider grappling enemies to disable them before using abilities against a non-disabled foe.
#158 yogo Nov 19, 2007 5:43:19	So, didn't want to start a thread about this one, but here's a build for you. Improvements welcome The Boltthrower Strongheart Halfling Warblade 1/Binder 3/Scout 16 4W6 Skirmish / +4(6)AC BaB 15 40 ft. Movement Stats(32 Point Buy): Str: 15 Dex: 16 +4 Level +5 Tome + 5 Wishes + 4 Paimon + 2 Race + 6 Item = 42 Con: 15 +1 Level Int: 8 Wis: 10 Cha: 12 Attack Bonus: 15(BaB) + 16(Dex) +1(Small) +1(WF) +5(GMW) = 38 Damage: 1w3+13 with GMW Feats: Bonus: Improved Binding Scout5: Point Blank Shot Scout8: Precise Shot Scout12: Ranged Disarm Scout16: Penetrating Shot 1:EWP (Hand Crossbow) 3:WF(Hand Crossbow) 6:Rapid Reload (Not needed if you have Quick Loading Hand Crossbows) - Good Choice would be Improved Skirmish 9:Crossbow Sniper 12:Two Weapon Fighting 15:Improved Two Weapon Fighting 18:Greater Two Weapon Fighting Weapons of Choice: 2 +1 Quick Loading Splitting Hand Crossbows Initiator Level 10 (Level 5 Maneuvers) Vestige Bound: Paimon Key Maneuvers: Press the Advantage (Stance - 10ft Step instead of 5ft step.) Absolute Steel Stance (Stance - +10ft Movement, +2 Skirmish AC) Fill your Maneuvers with nice Boots and Counters. This Build aims for (at least) 6 ranged Skirmishes each round (without magic), since via Press the Advantage you can move 10ft per round and still make a Full attack. Paimon gives nice Bonuses for this build, +4 Dex is always good,uncanny dodge too and Dance of Death (by RAW nothing prevents you from using it with ranged weapons) lets you shoot every enemy we run past every 5 rounds. Per Crossbos Sniper we add half of our Dex-Bonus to Damage and can Skirmish for 4d6 up to 60 ft range. We also ignore difficult Terrain, so the 10ft. step is almost guaranteed. Basically, we have in the end several options of dealing damage: 1. Dance of Death + Absolute Steel Stance Running past Enemys using our good movement, we can skirmish everyone we run past. Very good vs. many Targets that are not too far away. 2. Press the Advantage + Full Attack 6 Attacks without Speed/Haste/Splitting, all + 4d6 skirmish. Nice vs. few Enemies 3. Penetrating Shot I don't exaclty know if you can do that twice a round with two hand crossbows. Nevertheless, in circumstances where a lot of enemies stand in 1(2) line(es), use it. 4.Ranged Disarm Use with any tactic above if needed. If pressed into melee, grab two Short Swords, with GTWF and Weapon Finesse(Paimon) you will still hit something. +a lot of skill points and scouting potential (Small, Skills) If anyone has some Ideas for Maneuvers or different Feats, tell me. I'm losing the outline over all the published material. ;)
#159 jameswilliamogle Nov 19, 2007 6:52:46	...nice build... If anyone has some Ideas for Maneuvers or different Feats, tell me. I'm losing the outline over all the published material. ;) I would definitely switch at least 2 levels of Scout w/ 2 levels of Swordsage, on top of the Warblade maneuvers. The main reason is that, although Paimon allows you to make a lot of attacks, you don't actually do that much damage per attack. Swordsage 2 gets you the nice added fire-damage, Assasin's Stance, and Shadow Blade (as a feat), greatly enhancing your damage per hit. I also think you have too many Scout levels, personally: I don't like more than 5, myself. More Warblade would be better, although I realize you have favorite class issues. Warblade doesn't really synergize all that well w/ the Binder 3 / Scout Motif - I think you'd be much better w/ Swordsage boosts from Desert Wind. The BAB loss isn't really desirable... I dunno... What about: Factotum 8 / Binder 3 / Knight of the Sacred Seal 5 / Swordsage 4? Improved Binding, Shadow Blade, Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Font of Inspiration X 4? Tons of extra Standard Actions, 2 Vestiges (Paimon + Orthos), tons of maneuvers, sneak attack as needed, Pact Augmentation, +16 BAB?
#160 yogo Nov 19, 2007 11:40:27	What about: Factotum 8 / Binder 3 / Knight of the Sacred Seal 5 / Swordsage 4? Improved Binding, Shadow Blade, Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Font of Inspiration X 4? Tons of extra Standard Actions, 2 Vestiges (Paimon + Orthos), tons of maneuvers, sneak attack as needed, Pact Augmentation, +16 BAB? I know that the build faces some problems (BaB for example). Factotum is out for me since I don't own the book yet. But with your build I'd be in melee again, which is not what I wanted for this one (actually not going to play it, at least not at the moment). I think that Scout levels are somewhat underestimated, medium BaB, some Bonus Feats, Blindsense (in my case), better Movement, and a very nice skill list. It's not a complete combat powerhouse (nevertheless, it's ~200 damage per round without splitting/speed/haste/whatever) - it shouldn't be, but a survival-type character with scouting/(social) possibilities and a decent offense. I played around with Unseen Seer and stuff, but it didn't please me much - less feats, less skills, mediocre spellcasting. Swordsage would imo not contribute much to a ranged skirmish build, Shadow Blade rocks, but is melee only. And Warblade synergizes very well with Scout, Press the Advantage/Absolute Steel Stance seem to be written for them ;)
#161 jameswilliamogle Nov 29, 2007 13:24:21	Just pointing out that RAW, Paimon's Dance of Death ability can be used w/ ranged weapons (not that this was intended, however).
#162 jameswilliamogle Dec 04, 2007 7:21:42	After playing my last session w/ Cabiri, I thought it extremely important to update the Divination and Blasting section. Reread that Divination ability: use divination. every round. crazy... also, w/ the Fireball only 3/day, and knowing who you'll be fighting via the divination ability, it isn't really that bad. also added your boltthrower build, yogo.
#163 BloodDragon Dec 05, 2007 15:43:23	Reading through some things with my favourite Vestige Astaroth, particularly his Master Craftsman ability, and decided a list of what craft abilities there are out there would probably be a good list to have. I’ve gotten most of these from D&D database searches, but a few I had to actually go digging in some books. So… [b]A list of what I’ve found:[/b] Format: [EBL Needed] - Feat name - Pre-reqs Item Creation 0 - Craft Construct - Craft Magic Arms and Armor & Craft Wondrous Item 0 - Craft Master Piece (Bardic) - Craft (action, literature, or music; depending on the type of performance to be created) 5 ranks, See Dragon #301 for full details, If I recall correctly it also requires Bardic Music for most of the Master-pieces 0 - Create Portal - Craft Wondrous Item 0 - Etch Rune - Scribe Scroll 0 - Sanctify Relic Item - Any Item Creation Feat. 1 - Craft Talisman 1 - Scribe Scroll 3 - Attune Gem - Intelligence 13+, Craft (gemcutting) skill 3 - Brew Potion 3 - Craft Wondrous Item 3 - Create Infusion (Imbue Herb) - Wilderness Lore 4 ranks 3 - Tattoo Magic - Craft (calligraphy) or Craft (painting) skill 5 - Craft Magic Arms and Armor 5 - Craft Rune Circle 5 - Craft Wand 6 - Craft Skull Talisman 7 - Craft Crystal Weapon - Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft (weaponsmithing) skill 9 - Bind Elemental 9 - Craft Rod 9 - Craft Scepter - Knowledge (history) 4 ranks 11 - Craft Contingent Spell 12 - Forge Ring 13 - Craft Staff 13 - Inscribe Rune X - Any of the UA Craft Masterwork X Feats. - Spell caster level and pre-requites vary, usually obtainable by level 1 or 3 Item Creation Modification 0 - Create Moving Portal - Create Portal 0 - Exceptional Artisan - Any Item Creation Feat. 0 - Extraorindary Artisan - Any Item Creation Feat. 0 - Improved Flight Item - Craft Wondrous Item, Knowlegde (Planes) 6 ranks. (Benefits apply mainly in Sharn) 0 - Legendary Artisan - Any Item Creation Feat. 0 - Portal Master - Any Item Creation Feat. Adventuring Feats Not all Item Creation Feats strictly deal with creating Items. 5 - Attune Magic Weapon - Gain a Bonus on a Magic Item you've Attuned to yourself 9 - Wand Mastery - Whe using any Wand the DC is increased by 2 12 - Extra Rings - Wear two Extra Rings!? Here’s an interesting one: Imbued Staff: A variant from Dragon #338. If you’re going the Anima Mage route and decide you’d prefer something other then a familiar. All of the Staff imbuing options are open to you: 1 - Imbued Defense 3 - Imbued Strength 5 - Enchant Staff 9 - Invest Spell 12 - Recharge Staff - Craft Staff And many people probably already know about Graft feats but it caught me by surprise: 0 - Graft Flesh - Aboleth - Aboleth Only, Heal 10 Ranks 0 - Construct Grafter - Craft (armorsmithing, blacksmithing, or sculpting) 10 ranks 0 - Graft Flesh - Beholder - Heal 10 Ranks 0 - Graft Flesh - Fiendish - Fiends Only, Heal 10 Ranks 0 - Graft Flesh - Undead - Heal 10 Ranks 0 - Graft Flesh - Yuan-ti - Heal 10 Ranks 0 - Graft Flesh - Illithid - Illithids Only, Heal 10 Ranks ? - Spell Graft - Craft Wonderous Item, Spontanious Caster, See Dragon #337 for full details 0 - Wyrmgrafter - Heal 10 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks Others/Misc: 1 - Grell Alchmey - Int 13, Dungeoneering 3 ranks 5 - Craft Aboleth Glyph - Aboleth Race Race Complication? That Polymorph spell you crafted the day before will help you with most Graft & Aberration Pre-requisites. Dragoncrafter Draconomicon does not have the [Item Creation] feat type; you could convince your DM that it should count as as such. Non-Magical I’m unsure if you are able to mimic Illithid Psonic Seal with Astaroth as the ability requires A) to be an Illithid, and B) "Anything" related to psonics, Maifester level or a Spell-like ability called "Psonics". Basiclly check Lords of Maddness first, then check with your DM The feat it self isn't "that" powerful so the any DM shouldn't have a problem with it, and if they do? No huge loss. Incarnum, Shadowmagic (Shadowcaster), & Truenamer Magical Items can be crafted using Astaroth's ability as they only require the basic Item Creation feats, however you still have to provide the Soulmelds, Shadowcasts, or utterances to do so. Crafting some Truenaming items is a little easier as there are one or two items that only require ranks in the True Speak (skill) and no utterances. Initiator (Martial): Scribe Martial Script: You only need a single level in Crusader or Swordsage to meet the requirements for this feat. Then you’ll be able to craft any maneuver that your initiator level/ Disciplines allow. Your EBL does not help you in this feats case, but it is worth mentioning due to the minimum investment. Aptitude Weapon, Martial Disciple Weapon & Crown / Amulet of “X Disciple” can all be met with normal item craft pre-reqs, you still must provide the required feats or manuvears though. Check the Tome of Battle (Pages 32 & 147-149) for more specifics. I’ve intentionally left out any Psonic (manifester) item creation feats because you can not mimic them with Astaroth, & Epic feats. Now Binding Astaroth everyday is not always the most optimal idea, but I prefer to keep my horizons broad. Hopefully someone finds this list useful. Edit: Added in the Levels and Pre-req. I'm not the greatest at formating, hopefully it's readable. I added two more feats as well. Edit 2: Got my Sharn book back, also added Scribe Martial Script.
#164 jameswilliamogle Dec 05, 2007 17:34:32	That's a great list: if you put in the minimum level to gain the feat, I'd be happy to put it in the handbook. There's a few problems, though... Mainly, Craft Construct requires 2 prereq feats, Scribe Scroll requires the posesser of the feat to actually use (unlike most others). There might be others, too; could you look at the feat descriptions and take those out? You definitely can't use the feats that require MLs or ILs, though.
#165 Omen_of_Peace Dec 05, 2007 17:44:25	Nice list ! I really like Astaroth too. Nitpick : if Martial Scripts only required ILs everybody could take the feat, but they actually require Crusader or Swordsage 1st (why not Warblade ??). It would be great to note which feats have other feats as prerequisite. For instance, Bind Elemental has CWI (and CL 9) as prereq. IIRC, Improved Flight Item adds to the speed of items that grant a flight speed and allows them to work continuously, regardless of the original max duration, while in a Syrania manifest zone. So it's for Sharn-only campaigns. edit: partly ninja'ed
#166 Slaunyeh Dec 09, 2007 15:26:26	This might be a little redundant, so bear with me. I recently discovered the Binder, and I've been studying this thread with interest ever since. I'm definitely going to play one at the next opportunity I get! Now, one thing I kinda felt was lacking from the guide was a breakdown of the various vestiges. How/when they are good, what their strength/weaknesses are. That kind of thing. So. I wrote it! This is mostly notes for myself... there're a lot of vestiges to keep track of, so I figured it would be handy with a 'cheat-sheet' of vestiges so I don't have to flip through the book too much during play. Now. I'm expecting to update these breakdowns once I have actual in-game experience with them, so this is just a beginning. Anyway! I thought I would share. Feel free to comment/correct where I'm blatantly wrong. 1st level vestiges Amon, the Void Before the Altar – darkvision, fire breath*, ram attack Notes: Offensive choice. Fire breath and natural attack makes for a strong damage output – ram horns are less useful at higher levels. Darkvision makes this an obvious choice for dungeon crawling. Aym, Queen Avarice – dwarven step, halo of fire, improved sunder, medium armour proficiency, resistance to fire, ruinous attack Notes: Good mix of offense (Halo of Fire, sunder and Ruinous Attack) and defence (medium armour, Dwarven Step and fire resistance). Sunder works best against weaker opponents. Leraje, the Green Herald – hide bonus, low-light vision, precise shot, ricochet, weapon proficiency (bows) Notes: Good (only?) ranged choice. Good for stealth/scouting and ranged offence (not restricted to bows). Using Ricochet is a standard action, and you can only apply precision damage against one target (see Manyshot). Naberius, the Grinning Hound – disguise self, faster ability healing, naberius’s skills, persuasive words*, silver tongue Notes: Excellent utility choice. Particular good in urban environments where skills are more pervasive than combat. While Naberius might not be the best choice in more hostile environments, it can be very useful to bind Naberius after taking ability damage/drain. Persuasive Words maintain its usefulness in most situations. Ronove, the Iron Maiden – cold iron and magic attacks, far hand*, feather fall, ronove’s fists, sprint Notes: Offensive choice with some additional utility. Unarmed strikes with monk damage are good in situations where weapons aren’t available, or at levels where available weapons can’t compete with unarmed damage. The rest of her granted powers have obvious uses at all levels (though Sprint is an enhancement bonus and thus doesn’t stack with many other effects that increase base speed). 2nd level vestiges Dahlver-Nar, the Tortured One – mad soul, maddening moan*, natural armour, shield self Notes: Mostly defensive choice. Good protection against mind-affecting effects and some “soft” control in Maddening Moan (though allies aren’t immune either). Beyond the obvious defensive benefits, Shield Self also has some interesting offensive uses against foes that may otherwise be difficult to harm. Haagenti, Mother of Minotaurs – confusing touch*, immunity to transformation, shield proficiency, weapon proficiency (axes) [b]Notes:[/ib] A mix of offense (Confusing Touch, proficiency with axes) and defence (shield proficiency, including tower shields). Immunity to Transformation (including polymorph and even petrifaction) is more situational, but it gets progressively better at higher levels. Malphas, the Turnfeather – bird’s eye viewing, invisibility*, poison use, sudden strike Notes: Excellent scout choice, with good first-strike offense. Offensive capabilities can vary, depending on any poisons available. Sudden strike is good with feinting or when used from invisibility. Good at hit-and-run combat at low levels. At higher levels, invisibility becomes easier to activate, making sudden strike that much stronger. Savnok, the Instigator – call armour, heavy armour proficiency, move ally*, savnok’s armour Notes: Strong defensive choice. Full plate armour gets better at higher levels. Move Ally can help overcoming the slow movement from heavy armour, or pull an ally out of trouble. Damage reduction isn’t huge, but is only weak against piercing damage. 3rd level vestiges Andromalius, the Repentant Rogue – jester’s mirth*, locate item, see the unseen, sense trickery, sneak attack Notes: Good utility choice. Works best in urban non-combat situations, though sneak attack means that it isn’t entirely hopeless to enter combat while bound to this vestige. See the Unseen is circumstantial, but can be very useful in the right situation. Focalor, Prince of Tears – aura of sadness, focalor’s breath*, lightning strike, water breathing Notes: Some offense as well as defence, along with good utility. Aura of sadness is a good enemy debuff that synergizes well with Focalor’s other granted powers (giving a penalty to saves), though it requires the binder to be in melee range. Focalor’s Breath is handy for escapes, to overcome a strong dodge-based AC or to set up sneak attacks/sudden strikes. Karsus, Hubris in the Blood – heavy magic, karsus’s senses, karsus’s touch*, karsus’s will Notes: Good spellcaster choice. Being able to use wands and staves like a wizard is very useful at most levels and being able to dispel magic with a touch is quite potent. This choice makes the binder into an excellent support-spellcaster, limited only by the wands and/or staves he can access. Paimon, the Dancer – dance of death*, paimon’s blades, paimon’s dexterity, paimon’s skills, uncanny dodge, whirlwind attack Notes: Strong offense with some defensive bonuses. The choice between Dance of Death and Whirlwind Attack allows flexibility in choosing when and how to fight. Paimon’s Skills make it possible to manoeuvre across the battlefield with impunity. An increase in dexterity, along with weapon finesse, gives a strong edge with Paimon’s Blades and adds to AC. Good overall dexterity-based offense, which truly excels against numerous weak opponents. 4th level vestiges Agares, Truth Betrayed – earth and air mastery, earthshaking step*, elemental companion, fear immunity, true speech Notes: Good control option. A strong choice when the focus of earth and air can be brought to bear most of the time. Earthshaking Step is great at disrupting the enemy, but note that allies aren’t immune to the effect. The Elemental Companion has a vast number of uses, from trap disarming to scouting, though the utility is somewhat limited by a short range. At later levels, the elemental can become fairly potent in combat. Andras, the Gray Knight – weapon proficiency, mount, saddle sure, smite good or evil*, sow discord*, sure blows Notes: Strong offensive choice. Mounted combat isn’t the best option at later levels, without access to a special mount. Smite Good or Evil, as well as Sure Blows, is great for damage output (especially combined with power attack). Sow Discord is a good battle-field control that can seriously disrupt enemies that fight in close formation. Buer, Grandmother Huntress – buer’s knowledge, buer’s purity, delay diseases and poisons, fast healing, healing gift*, track Notes: Good support choice. While Healing Gift isn’t the best option to keep allies in fighting shape during combat, it is great for restoring health between fights. Fast Healing even allows the binder to take a more active role without worrying about healing himself. Eurynome, Mother of the Material – animal friend, damage reduction, eurynome’s maul, poison blood, water dancing Notes: A mostly offensive choice. Eurynome’s Maul is a magical warhammer that gets progressively better. Poison Blood is quite circumstantial, but effective when it can be put to use. Animal Friend and Water Dancing have a myriad of (mostly) out-of-combat uses. Tenebrous, the Shadow that Was – deeper darkness, see in darkness, touch of the void*, turn/rebuke undead*, vessel of emptiness Notes: A mix of offense and control. Can hamper enemies (and allies) with deeper darkness, and deal damage through the Touch of Void. The ability to turn or rebuke undead is helpful if there is no cleric available, and Vessel of Emptiness can give good mobility (though only a few times each day). [From Cityscape Web Enhancement] Astaroth, Unjustly Fallen – angelic lore, astaroth’s breath, honeyed tongue, master craftsman, word of astaroth Notes: A great utility choice. While there are some potential combat uses in Astaroth’s Breath and Word of Astaroth, his granted powers lend themselves best to more peaceful pursuits. Bardic knowledge and crafting feats let the binder take the role of loremaster, and create magic item as necessary (though he will still need access to spells and such from another source). [From Mind’s Eye article] Arete, the First Elan – psionic boon, resistance, damage reduction, repletion Notes: A decent defensive choice. The granted powers give useful bonuses to saves, damage reduction, and a few psionic powers – though the pool of available power points is rather limited. 5th level vestiges Acererak, the Devourer – detect undead, hide from undead, lich’s energy immunities, paralyzing touch*, speak with dead, undead healing Notes: A mixture of offence against living creatures (Paralyzing Touch) and defence against undead. Acererak offers supreme utility when confronted with the dead, particular to avoid conflict altogether, but offers little offence against such creatures. Lich’s Energy Immunities and Undead Healing have universal, widespread usage. Balam, the Bitter Angel – balam’s cunning*, icy glare, prescience, weapon finesse Notes: A strong utility choice. While Belam doesn’t offer strong offensive or defensive powers directly, the ability to reroll attacks, saving throws and skill checks, as well as gaining a bonus to AC, Reflex saves and initiative, is incredible useful. Icy Glare deal modest damage its own, but is quite useful as a passive attack. Dantalion, the Star Emperor – awe of dantalion*, dantalion knows, read thoughts, thought travel* Notes: A good utility choice. Most of Dantalion’s granted powers are best when interacting with others, though Awe of Dantalion is a strong defensive power. Geryon, the Deposed Lord – acidic gaze, all-around vision, see in darkness, swift flight* Notes: Another good utility choice. Acidic gaze gives a decent, “free” attack against all foes (and possible allies) in range. Superior senses can pierce even magical darkness. Flight is always useful, even if it is only for 1 round. Otiax, the Key to the Gate – air blast, combat reflexes, concealing mist, open portal, unlock* Notes: Good combat choice, with some utility. Air Blast makes this a good choice for combat, while you can’t use strength with this attack, the damage and reach makes it a good choice nonetheless. Since it’s a touch attack, Power Attack is a strong option to combine with this attack. Unlock allows you to take on the role of a rogue, to some degree – this power becomes much stronger at later levels. 6th level vestiges Chupoclops, Harbinger of Forever – aura of despair, ethereal watcher*, ghost touch, poison bite, pounce, soulsense Notes: Specialized, but strong, combat choice. Good choice against ghosts thanks to Ghost Touch. Poison Bite isn’t a particular strong attack, but serviceable if weapons are unavailable or as a secondary attack. Pounce can make for an incredible strong charge. Soulsense works well against foes that would ordinarily remain undetected, and Ethereal watcher has uses both for scouting, as well as retreating from combat. Haures, the Dreaming Duke – inaccessible mind, incorporeal movement, major image*, phantasmal killer* Notes: Good defensive utility choice. Haures is perhaps not the strongest combat choice, but offer superb battlefield manoeuvrability and resistance against mental attacks that can incapacitate most melee combatants. Major Image offers a lot of versatility, and doesn’t require concentration. Phantasmal Killer is a strong save-or-die effect – especially for a binder that has ways to debuff the target’s saving throws. Ipos, Prince of Fools – cold iron claws, flash of insight*, ipos’s influence, planar attenuation, rend Notes: Good offense, mixed with some utility. The claws are not awesome in and of themselves, but are useful when weapons are unavailable or as a secondary natural attack. Rend makes them somewhat stronger, but the damage will never be great – especially at later levels. Shax, Sea Sister – freedom of movement*, immunity to electricity, storm strike, swim speed Notes: Good offensive combat choice. Though few of her granted powers actually involve combat, Storm Strike can deal good damage. Freedom of Movement is highly desirable for any melee combatant. This is a particular good choice for aquatic encounters. Zagan, Duke of Disappointment – aversion*, improved grapple, scent, constrict, snake bane Notes: Strong specialized combat choice. Zagan offer some interesting powers. A strong ability to grapple and constrict is useful against weaker opponents, while keeping stronger enemies at bay with Aversion. An obvious choice for fighting snakelike creatures. [From Design and Development article] Vanus, the Reviled One – fear aura, free ally*, noble disdain, vanus’ ears Notes: A good utility choice, with some melee capabilities. Fear Aura works best in or near melee, but is an aura that only affects enemies. Free Ally is a good support power, while Noble Disdain adds some extra damage output against weaker foes. [From Cityscape Web Enhancement] Desharis, the Sprawling Soul – city-dweller, infinite doors, language of the city, smite natural soul, spirits of the city Notes: Good choice of utility for urban adventure. While Infinite Doors can only be used once a day, it is a great escape power, and, with a range of 3000 yards, can allow for speedy emergency transportation across a sizeable city. Smite Natural Soul is useful in the wild, when expecting to face animals, fey or other natural creatures. Spirits of the City has ample potential, both in combat and out. [From Class Chronicles: Binders] Zceryll, the Star Spawn – alien form, alien mind, bolts of madness, summon alien, telepathy Notes: A very flexible choice, without specializing in any one area. Summon Alien is a rather potent ability when used right. While it can’t match the might of a specialized Conjurer, having the choice of creature at hand is always useful. Note that this power has an activation time of 1 standard action, like most supernatural abilities. Some useful immunities and protections ward the Binder against most mental intrusion, while Bolts of Madness can daze an enemy for a short time. [From Mind’s Eye article] The Triad – psionic boon, Gorn’s Knowledge: call to mind, psicraft bonus, bardic knowledge / Rujsha’s Justice: empathy, diplomatic bonus, smite evil / Mintar’s Honour: detect hostile intent, sense motive bonus, weapon proficiency (all) Notes: A very flexible choice. While the individual powers aren’t particular strong, The Triad offers more of them than any other vestige, giving a little bit of everything. A good all-round “default” bind. 7th level vestiges Eligor, Dragon’s Slayer – chromatic strike, eligor’s skill in the saddle, eligor’s strength, eligor’s resilience, heavy armor proficiency Notes: Strong cavalry-focused offensive choice. With extra damage on melee attacks, as well as increased strength, this choice offers good melee damage even out of the saddle. With the right mount, Eligor also offers some useful feats, though one will need the Mounted Combat feat to make the most out of that option. With heavy armour and Eligor’s Resilience, defence isn’t bad either. Marchosias, King of Killers – death attack, fiery retribution, smoke form*, silent and sure Notes: Assassination/scouting choice. Marchosias is an excellent choice against rogue-style foes. Fiery Retribution deal good damage against seedier enemies, while Silent and Sure makes it easier to catch such foes unaware to bypass their dexterity-based defence. Since Smoke Form last for as long as necessary, it becomes a very good tool for scouting. Death Attack has obvious uses, but keep in mind that one needs Sneak Attack from some other source to be able to use it. 8th level vestiges Halphax, the Angel in the Angle – damage reduction, halphax’s knowledge, imprison, iron wall*, secure shelter* Notes: A defensive utility choice. Halphax offers a continuous stoneskin effect which is very useful for most physical combat. Imprison can take a dangerous foe out of the fight, while Iron Wall and Secure Shelter offer mostly utility uses. Iron Wall has a rather short duration (1 minute) but is useful to block off access for a brief time. Orthos, Sovereign of the Howling Dark – blindsight, displacement, whirlwind breath*, whispering wind Notes: A strong mix of offense and defence. Displacement offers excellent defensive damage mitigation, while Whirlwind Breath is a terrific cone attack that deal damage and push foes away. Blindsight offers protection against foes that would otherwise remain unseen, and Whispering Wind allow communication across great distances. [From Mind’s Eye article] Abysm, the Schismed – psionic boon, overpower Note: A strong psionic choice. Abysm grant a number of psionic powers that each can be quite potent, particular at this level. Available power points are somewhat limited though.
#167 jameswilliamogle Dec 09, 2007 20:15:57	Very bottom of this post, Reports from the Trenches, and second entry of this post. Your list does have the higher level details listed.
#168 timespike Dec 09, 2007 22:36:46	My WORD. I knew binders were versatile but... ...wow. I have to try playing one of these things sometime. Soon.
#169 Slaunyeh Dec 10, 2007 1:08:04	Very bottom of this post, Reports from the Trenches, and second entry of this post. Your list does have the higher level details listed. Yeah. I really liked the report from the trenches, that was a very interesting read. I mostly based my list off of bits and pieces of information found around here, but I felt that I needed a more compact list for when I sit at the table and have to pick which vestige to bind for the day. It'll take a while before I have all this stuff memorized, so it was mostly to help myself out. I also focused more on what each single vestige did, and not so much on clever combinations because that was already covered very well elsewhere. With no real in-game experience with any of the vestiges, it's mostly theorycrafting on my part through.
#170 bensan Dec 10, 2007 1:58:32	Another Binder going through Savage Tides here. The party is a binder, a factotum, a duskblade, a changeling wizard (nonspecialist, but will be taking the familiar substitution), a warlock and a cleric (the last two are both new players are are pretty much a blaster and a healer respectively.) Probably a little bit of spoiler here too, so avoid if you're worried about that. My first-level feats were Improved Binding (almost mandatory for going 1-20) and Weapon Focus: Morningstar (I'll be going KotSS later, and Weapon Focus is one of those feats that's really absolutely better the earlier you take it - the DM will be letting me retrain it to another weapon after I get KotSS's proficiencies, which is nice.) Fairly standard level 1 equipment: studded leather, morningstar, longspear, light crossbow, sickle, heavy wooden shield, Adventurer's Valu-Pack from PHB2. I'll be snagging a breastplate for Aym to use once I can afford it. Maxed skills are Bluff, Diplomacy, K: Religion and Sense Motive. (Once I have 5 ranks of K: Religion I'll be dropping it for Intimidate to qualify towards Rapid Pact Making if I ever want it.) Show The first mission involved boarding a ship. We took a day to plan and prepare; I used Bird's-Eye Viewing to watch the ship's crew and figure out their security and rotation, while some of the others went about Gathering Information. When it came time to board, the bird kept an eye on the crew's activities while we used Dancing Lights and Ghost Sound to create a distraction at the far side of the ship, letting us sneak aboard and get the drop on the crew. Malphus wasn't much help during this fight, but at level 1 Weapon Focus and 14 Strength are more than enough to hold your own in melee. We encountered the apparent ringleader of the goons, who decided not to fight six people including at least two spellcasters, and then ran into a giant spider belowdecks. It grappled the factotum, which to my pleased surprise gave me a chance to actually use Sudden Strike (since a grappling character loses its Dex bonus). This and some stabbing from the Duskblade were plenty to deal with the problem.
#171 jameswilliamogle Dec 10, 2007 6:56:05	Yeah, I played a Binder through the first 12 levels of Savage Tide. During that module, I tried using Laraje w/ a Light Crossbow, and it absolutely sucked! I don't know why... The damage just wasn't significant enough, I guess. Don't forget that the bird can also flank for you and can carry up to 5 pounds and still fly (ie, it can carry a sunstick and a potion).
#172 bensan Dec 10, 2007 10:07:19	Don't forget that the bird can also flank for you and can carry up to 5 pounds and still fly (ie, it can carry a sunstick and a potion). From the SRD: "Creatures with a reach of 0 feet can’t flank an opponent." So, no, it can't do that one. It can, however, carry small things as you note, including also messages, alchemist's fire, and grappling hooks at the ends of ropes. Leraje can (theoretically) be devastating with a more archery-centered binder (or, better yet, for a binder dip on an archer or warlock), but for this character the crossbow is just backup for situations where I don't have any other ranged capabilities that day, which I expect to be pretty often until the mid levels. Leraje will probably be staying in the dugout, which is too bad given how many Castlevania fans are in the player group. "I SEE YOU!"
#173 BloodDragon Dec 10, 2007 11:46:01	That's a great list: if you put in the minimum level to gain the feat, I'd be happy to put it in the handbook. There's a few problems, though... Mainly, Craft Construct requires 2 prereq feats, Scribe Scroll requires the posesser of the feat to actually use (unlike most others). There might be others, too; could you look at the feat descriptions and take those out? You definitely can't use the feats that require MLs or ILs, though. 'Soitainly. Already made myself the list before I posted, formating is a bane weapon against me thou.
#174 Midnight_v Dec 10, 2007 14:08:46	Right now I'm playing a binder 4 warblade 1 bound to paimon with improved vestige... The campaign is called hellgate:faerun so its like supposed to be super hard and based on the video game... But this build is just sooo great so far! I mean it just out performed all my expectations and I came to tell people about it but I find myself severely ninja'd ...with goodness! I have to decide now to continue warblade or take up scout as you suggested. Is there a feat to improve skirmising? If so what book? I ignored swifthunters/scouts till now...:D
#175 jameswilliamogle Dec 10, 2007 14:31:15	Right now I'm playing a binder 4 warblade 1 bound to paimon with improved vestige... The campaign is called hellgate:faerun so its like supposed to be super hard and based on the video game... But this build is just sooo great so far! I mean it just out performed all my expectations and I came to tell people about it but I find myself severely ninja'd ...with goodness! I have to decide now to continue warblade or take up scout as you suggested. Is there a feat to improve skirmising? If so what book? I ignored swifthunters/scouts till now...:D Improved Skirmish, p78 CScoundrel. Glad its working out for you .
#176 bensan Dec 15, 2007 10:48:30	Second session with a binder in Savage Tides. Not a lot to say, though; the short version is that Savnok performed pretty much exactly as I expected. Savage Tide semispoilers in the block. Show We started with a combat encounter against a construct. I brought Savnok and a heavy shield to the party and stood up front while everyone else peppered it with spells and crossbow bolts. It couldn't hurt me and I couldn't penetrate its DR, and since it was the nice stupid "attack the closest target" kind of construct the tanking worked well - if it had been intelligent, it probably would've just gone around me, ignored my AoO, and rampaged through the squishies. Still, what Savnok promises is ironclad personal defense, and I can't claim he didn't deliver - I'll probably be revisiting him more once I have more offensive options to use with him. After that was some puzzle stuff, so Savnok was basically irrelevant. If I'd had Expel Vestige I could've bound Naberius for a possible contribution of the appropriate Knowledge, but with a Factotum in the party who has Jack Of All Trades (which DM ruled is sufficient to use Cunning Knowledge) it would have been unlikely to make a difference. We got paid 200 GP each, which went to a breastplate for me. Now I'll be able to use Aym as a middleweight tank option; Savnok's defense is awesome, but with a healing-focused cleric I'm not too worried about taking a hit or two. Aym will let me use a longspear with the flaming touch for close work, and I should be considerably more of an offensive threat as a result.
#177 nephelim Jan 07, 2008 14:06:04	Hey, could a Binder who is bound to Karsus use a Runestaff? What if they were a Karsite?
#178 friendlyfrog Jan 07, 2008 14:12:45	Hey, could a Binder who is bound to Karsus use a Runestaff? What if they were a Karsite? You still need to burn arcane spells to activate it.
#179 nephelim Jan 07, 2008 14:25:33	You still need to burn arcane spells to activate it. So Runestaves are not Spell-trigger items?
#180 jameswilliamogle Jan 07, 2008 14:30:26	So Runestaves are not Spell-trigger items? They are, but there's another requirement in the item.
#181 nephelim Jan 07, 2008 14:37:04	They are, but there's another requirement in the item. Fair enough... a reasonable answer to by query! ;)
#182 bensan Jan 07, 2008 14:56:02	Yeah, the situation as I see it with a runestaff is that Karsus gives you access, the runestaff goes "Okay, you're a wizard, put in the spell you want to power this fireball with", and you're left with a staff that's willing but not able. Don't worry, it happens to everyone now and then. Anyway, I should probably get around to my third Savage Tide binder semireport. If it seems like not much happens, it's because I'm leaving out the parts where mechanics and optimization are basically irrelevant - that is, roleplaying. Show Aym this time, since I have a shiny new breastplate. We negotiated with a low-life; Aym had no effect here, but with Cha as my prime stat and Diplomacy, Bluff and Sense Motive as class skills, I'm also serving as a face man - the binder does this as well as anyone and better than most even without involving vestiges. I'd been hoping to use a longspear with the fiery touch for close work, but we ended up fighting in a fairly small area, so it was the old reliable morningstar again. The enemies were a bunch of oversized crabs; since the duskblade was conserving his spells, we did about equally in terms of melee effectiveness and the fiery aura pulled me ahead in terms of damage output. As an added bonus, it helped when we abruptly found ourselves in need of a light source suddenly - the rulebook doesn't say anything about the flame aura shedding light, but it seemed a bit silly that a grown man on fire wouldn't illuminate as well as a torch or even a candle. I haven't gotten to use the Sunder abilities yet, but I'm looking forward to them. I'm quite satisfied with Aym; Savnok's armor is fantastic, but he's a bit of a one-trick pony until Move Ally's range improves. He'll be a stronger candidate when I can bind more than one at a time, but for now I'm actually a little happier with Aym's mix of midweight defense and offensive options. Plus, flaming aura + fighting crabs knee-deep in water = boiled crab for lunch!
#183 jameswilliamogle Jan 07, 2008 15:37:05	ah, yes, the old crabs... i remember them well... i SO want to spoil the next session... I'll wait until you post the next installment then I'll tell you what I did.
#184 BloodDragon Jan 09, 2008 12:06:49	Finally I’ve completed my late Christmas gift to the D&D community! A PDF containing quick reference information for all of the additional Vestiges from sources outside the Tome of Magic, such as through Dragon Mags, the D&D Website, etc. Which include Influences, Manifestations, and of course Granted Power and their statistics. This is so everyone can have a single quick reference source for Non-ToM vestiges in a nicely formatted document. I can’t post it here on the forums sadly, but if you like you can PM me for it. Keep in mind this is not strictly for the CO (although I’m sure we’ll find the most use out of it.) This is for everyone from Causal player, Optimizer, to DM. Enjoy. :D ---- Edit ---- Well I don't hang around the Op-boards as much as I use to, so if anyone would still like a copy of the list of the 19.5 Vestiges that appear outside the ToM, I've uploaded them to: Mediafire under Anonymously http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=cc95e44696d58c1875a4fc82078ae6c8e04e75f6e8ebb871 or Here Aside from a few spelling mistakes in the Fluff sections they are quite complete. If the links fail to work please feel free to PM me anyway, I do check back occasionally. 2.3 is as complete as Binders can be when 4th was released.
#185 jameswilliamogle Jan 11, 2008 11:50:40	Monkish Binder: Human Binder 15 / Knight of the Sacred Seal 5 1 Power Attack, Improved Vestige Binding 3 Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike 6 Improved Natural Attack 9 Improved Bull Rush 12 Shocktrooper 15 free 18 free 1-7th: Uses Ronove; has the mage cast Mighty Wollop and Enlarge Person 8-9: Adds Balam for the reroll and bonuses; gets Enlarge Person Permanencied, gets Greater Mighty Wollop, gets Greater Magic Fang Permanencied, invests in a Ring of Counterspells (Dispel Magic) 10-14: Switches Balam for Chupoclops for Pounce, Bite, and Ethereal Watcher 15-19: Adds Ipos for 2 more Claw Attacks 20: Adds Zagan for Grappling advantages At the low(est) levels, he's doing 2d6+Str damage w/ Unarmed Strike, and this eventually grows to 20d8 damage at 20th (or more; I don't know the size progressions). If you Pounce at 20th, then you can use the full Headless Charge option from Shocktrooper, and do: 2 claws (d6), 1 bite (d6), 4 unarmed strikes (20d8 or more), all with Str+16 damage. The nice thing is that you only invested in 1 feat outside of the Shocktrooper line to get there (INA), and as I've harpied on before Shocktrooper is pretty invaluable for melee-anything... but you could live without it. There are a lot of small variations you could make with this, for example replacing Ipos with Savnok for the extra mobility and armor, or replace Zagan with Haures for extra weirdness.
#186 xoraxx Jan 11, 2008 12:45:04	Finally I’ve completed my late Christmas gift to the D&D community! A PDF containing quick reference information for all of the additional Vestiges from sources outside the Tome of Magic, such as through Dragon Mags, the D&D Website, etc. Which include Influences, Manifestations, and of course Granted Power and their statistics. This is so everyone can have a single quick reference source for Non-ToM vestiges in a nicely formatted document. I can’t post it here on the forums sadly, but if you like you can PM me for it. Keep in mind this is not strictly for the CO (although I’m sure we’ll find the most use out of it.) This is for everyone from Causal player, Optimizer, to DM. Enjoy. :D **Warning*** May contain mild spoilers for the Savage Tide Campaign. I’ve tried to keep it as clean as possible. Wow, thanks for that PDF BloodDragon :D. It looks great! And its good to have all those vestiges in one place.
#187 thinblade Jan 11, 2008 13:10:25	Just a note to the binder community that jameswilliamogle and I are trying to create a binder/warlock dual progression PrC over in the Warlock Information Compilation. We've got an extremely rough version at the end of the thread [translation: james put up a skeleton PrC and some ideas, and I've given some critiques]. If any of you want to wander over and add your ideas, you're more than welcome (I know warlocks WAY better than I do binders).
#188 testpatternmih Jan 12, 2008 13:25:01	Might I recommend additional link to the lists of exactly what Zceryll can summon as you did for Alter Self. I found this to be the most informatative and best layed out piece. To properly use the Alien Summon you must know the full extend of your options. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=926009 <3 OP boards.
#189 bensan Jan 12, 2008 14:46:04	So, a little more Savage Tide trench reporting. Our party is full of talky dudes, myself included, so we move slow but have a fine time doing it. Possible spoilers and semicolon abuse below. Show First up was a balancing act over urchin-infested water. Aym was no particular help or harm, but my longspear proved useful for clearing urchins out of the way - apparently I'm the only person who packed a reach weapon. Then again, I'm also the only tank particularly and the only person who's not guaranteed to have a decent ranged option in other circumstances. This will probably change once I can bind multiple vestiges, but for now I consider it more important for us to have a tank than another sniper, with a high-dex factotum, a warlock, and a wizard in the party. Waiting for us across the water were some kind of zombie pirates. What I did here may or may not be optimal, but partly due to roleplaying-based decisions and partly due to circumstance the factotum ended up with pretty much all of them threatening him without having a zombie-effective weapon on hand. For this reason, I charged and grappled while on fire, which certainly drew their attention. (Not having a BAB, I couldn't draw a weapon while charging, and simply making touch attacks wouldn't have had the effect of basically guaranteeing that at least one would be focused on me.) As it turned out, being the most convenient and visible target even while on fire pulled their attention quite effectively; I burned one to ashes while the duskblade, wizard, and warlock blew apart the others. Thus, the fight ended with me unconscious and the rest of the party undamaged. Since this requires fewer healing resources than if two or more people had been bitten (those guys bite hard, so each person would've required a CLW; I can be brought back up with one CLW and a few Cure Minors), I consider it a success as a tank, even if it is a flawed success; with better planning, we could've had a better one, and perhaps the characters will learn from it. Thus, I'd have to say Aym is still performing well as a solid all-rounder; she more or less acts to enhance the existing options of a basically semitanky build. I'll be exploring other vestiges as I get the chance to bind them; this is the same game-day as the last fight, so.
#190 jameswilliamogle Jan 12, 2008 15:01:08	OK, question for you BenSan: Do you think that the extra +1 AC from the Breastplate vs. just wearing a Chain Shirt is that useful? Do you think you'd be more effective binding Dahlver-Nar, targeting an enemy w/ Shield Self, then going into combat? Or do you think the more offensive fire damage is still worth it? Here's how I see it: DN: get DR 50% w/ one round of buff required to make it happen; almost auto-escape any really difficult situation by dazing everything; other abilities not significant yet Aym: +1 AC; touch attack for d6 fire damage; non-reach attackers take d6 damage; super-sunder options It really feels like a toss-up to me; that 50% DR is freakin' huge...
#191 bensan Jan 12, 2008 15:44:44	Aym actually doesn't even have AC over Dahlver-Nar for me, since my Con bonus is +2. I plan to try out Dahlver-Nar next. There are two reasons I haven't yet: First, it's still the same day as the previous fights. I don't have Expel Vestige yet, and even if I did I wouldn't waste it on switching from Aym to Dahlver-Nar, since they fill about the same role (middleweight defense, damage shield, etc.) The other is that our group, as I said, is very heavy on roleplaying, and I'm the face insofar as I have the highest Diplomacy check. Dahlver-Nar has a higher binding DC and a much more obtrusive influence if the DC is failed than Aym; neither is particularly problematic in a dungeon, but when you're dealing with other people and not sure whether to expect trouble or not, Aym's influence is much easier to deal with on the party face than Dahlver-Nar's. Nobody is surprised if the other party in a negotiation haggles down to the lowest price he thinks he can get, but it can be offputting to have the other party stare intently at a point a bit beyond your shoulder for several seconds before each response. So, yeah. When we start a day knowing for sure that we're dealing with the other party on hostile terms, Dahlver-Nar should be a great choice. Since it was either him or Aym to fill the role for the current game-day, and I didn't know what the ratio of negotiations to throwdown would be, Aym was the better choice. For what it's worth, there'll probably be a D-N evaluation coming up next game day unless our circumstances change significantly. Show Also, for all but one of the fights we've been in, Maddening Moan would have done nothing. It's a mind-affecting ability, and the fights so far have been smugglers (M.M. is okay for this), a giant spider (vermin and therefore mindless), a guardian construct (mindless), giant crabs (vermin again), and zombies (mindless and also undead, so immune from two different sources). I'm not sure I like this trend..
#192 jameswilliamogle Jan 12, 2008 17:08:57	oof... I'm having a tough time figuring out everything I can do w/ Zceceryl... I just got access to L6 vestiges in my last RL session... I'm starting to think that Zcecyryl + Haures might make the ultimate pseudo-Wizard combination...
#193 testpatternmih Jan 12, 2008 17:37:13	She does have alot of potential. Dahlver-Nar + Zceryll offer a new tanking method. Summoning powerful beast and tossing Shield Self onto the summon. The main problem with summoning is if they ignore the pets and come for you, this helps give you that added potection without banking off a failed Will save of your opponent ( works great for the non-Opt'd DC character ). You can get more bang for your buck from those potions when thats in effect for sure. If anything, Zceryll will always be in a box ( Vestige Phylactery ) incase the goings get rough. I know someone mentioned this abit but if you pick up the Favored Vestige feat and apply it to Zceryll you can use Ipos ( for the added EBL ) on levels Even numbered levels ( 12, 14 or 16 ) to get a higher level Summoning. But on Odd levels ( 11, 13, 15, 17 ) you are free to bind another vestige as you are ahead as far as you can get with just the +1 EBL feat. This trick dies off at 18th level but if retraining ( or Psionics, got bless them ) is available it really is amazing little bump. Q: How do you guys feel about the "____ supernatural ability" feats for the binder? I do not see any commends made to them in the main post.
#194 jameswilliamogle Jan 12, 2008 18:02:30	They generally feel subpar. A Orthos / Amon focused build might get some use out of them, but the 1/day kind of goes against what the Binder is all about, imo. I also don't see the majority of abilities that really can take advantage of it (there are a few, though, but they don't seem to get a lot out of it). I'd say they might be worth investing in using the Binder's bonus feats after the Binder has Expel Vestige and Improved Vestige Binding. This is the order I'd pick them: Extend Su Ability > Widen ~ Enlarge > Empower (but only for a non-focused Binder, one that doesn't use Amon or Orthos every day, every combat; then it would be the opposite order, I think). I'd also say Sudden Ability Focus is much better for single-feat power to take multiple times. It really depends on your focus, though... If you want to make a purely Amon-focused nuclear power, then they might be the way to go. Shield Self actually works better on the Cleric of the group rather than a Summons, mainly b/c it won't force you to eat up actions in the middle of combat. You can also target a mount, too. I'm against targeting the temporary creatures (those that last <1h), though it is an option.
#195 bensan Jan 24, 2008 7:29:59	All right, a little more quasi-log of a binder's Savage Tide adventures. Show Lots of zombies. A longspear is great against zombies, because the only way they can move and attack in the same round is by charging: ready your spear against the inevitable charge, let them impale themselves for massive damage, then get an extra AoO while they're getting close. Eminently respectable damage even with their DR. If they don't charge, AoO them as they come close, then slap them in the face with a flaming hand and back off a little.. and if they don't even move closer, well, they're not going to get past you, are they? This isn't really binder-specific advice except insofar as the handbook recommends a sickle for use against zombies. There were plenty of zombies this adventure and the longspear was far more useful than the sickle ever was. (Well, that's not quite true. The sickle is good for hacking through jungle, just not as a weapon. It's cheap enough that I'd say it's worth having one as a tool, though.) Anyhow, we got to the fight I'm pretty sure jameswilliamogle was resisting spoiling. It was.. honestly a bit anticlimactic. I can see how it would shred the wrong party, but we sort of steamrolled it, not so much as a result of optimization but rather as a result of what party type we had. I aced my K: Religion check, and so we knew about its fantastic DR, but it really didn't become an issue. I suspect the fight would've been a lot worse for a "traditional" party where their sources of DR-circumventing damage at this level are mostly spells, which at this level are a limited resource. However, between my fiery touch, the warlock's Eldritch Blast, and the duskblade's spells (he had plenty left since in most fights at this level he does just as well just stabbing things) we knocked it over in a couple turns. Adding insult to injury, the cleric actually managed to turn it despite the Turn Resistance. If any lesson was learned about the boss fight, it's one I already knew: Aym's fiery aura is pretty awesome. 1d6 damage is plinking even at level 1, but it's damage that ignores armor and DR (the latter can be a huge problem for level 1 frontliners) and it doesn't interfere with your ability to still use a weapon for stronger offense when it'll work.
#196 jameswilliamogle Jan 24, 2008 7:41:57	I was going to add this, but wanted more feedback first since its kind of a pain logging in and out all the time. What other equipment should go in here? Equipment Every Binder Wants (in the rough order that you'd get it) Chain Shirt, Morningstar, Longspear, Dagger, Standard Adventurer's Gear, some potions Healing Belt (MIC), Vest of Resistance +X (CA), Chain Shirt +X Morningstar +X, Mithril Buckler +X, Longspear +X, Rapier +X (if Paimon and Andras focused exclusively) Implements of Binding +X (only for Expel Vestige use) Cloak of Charisma +X (for all), + strength items Necklace of Health +X (for melee), Circlet of Persuasion (for social) ToB "learn a maneuver" items (this gets broken; ToB) Valorous weapons (for Chupoclops abuse) Veil of Allure (Sandstorm), Soul Lens (ToM) (invaluable for boosting DCs on all Binders) Vestige Philactery (invaluable before you get 3 vestiges at a time; ToM) Assasin's Dagger (exclusively for Marchosias usage) Tome of Leadership and Understanding +5 (not before you can afford +5) edit: @ BenSan: nope, that's not the part :D
#197 bensan Jan 24, 2008 12:22:39	If you're making a Strength-focused binder, I'm not sure the rapier +x is worth it. You're diluting your resources for minimal gain, even with Paimon and Andras on the table. I'd prefer to keep my money in one place to upgrade the morningstar (or whatever martial weapon I settle on with Knight Of The Sacred Seal.) The sickle is not a must-have. The longspear is. The sickle is worse than your morningstar in every regard except for overcoming DR/slashing, which exactly one creature at low levels has. For sickle vs. longspear against that creature, see my previous post - even with DR, I prefer the longspear. I would even venture to say that a magic longspear will get you more benefits as a Paimon weapon than the suggested magic rapier would - if your DM interprets it a given way, it may let you Dance of Death without having to deal with the AoOs normally generated or else bring a lot more creatures into your Dance of Death, depending on how enemies are arrayed. Other than that, the Binder's MVP item choices pretty much come down to "things that make him better at binding" (which are no-brainers), "things everyone wants anyway" (+mainstat, +con, +saves: also no-brainers), and "things that are pretty generic to tanks", which presumably will change if you make an archer-binder or otherwise nontank binder. Not exactly magic items, but it just struck me that there's no particular reason Leraje can't Ricochet alchemist's fire, tanglefoot bags, and such goodies. Definitely an option to keep in mind, even if it's a specialized one.
#198 jameswilliamogle Jan 24, 2008 12:58:19	Yup; a TWF, Quickdrawing Leraje / Sneak and Sudden Strike Binder would definitely be fun (though I'm not sure it would be more effective than a regular TWF, Quickdrawing Rogue in that respect, but it would have vestige options). I still prefer the rapier from L3 to L8 or so: Binders are a bit MAD, and its kind of hard to put >14 in Str. That opens up Power Attack, and you still can use the Rapier 2-handed for 2X PA damage. With Imp Crit from Andras, that gets to be pretty decent damage. Not required, though, so I'll just write in parantheses (Paimon focused only). I do understand your point, though. The sickle is in there just for zombies, true, but I seem to encounter them at L1 every game I play. I guess a dagger would be just as good.
#199 bensan Jan 24, 2008 13:17:22	I still prefer the rapier from L3 to L8 or so: Binders are a bit MAD, and its kind of hard to put >14 in Str. That opens up Power Attack, and you still can use the Rapier 2-handed for 2X PA damage. With Imp Crit from Andras, that gets to be pretty decent damage. Not required, though, so I'll just write in parantheses (Paimon focused only). Let's say you have Str 14 and Dex 12 with Weapon Focus: Morningstar (not too unlikely; it's what my Savage Tide binder has. Weapon Focus: Something is implied for every low-level binder who wants to go KotSS someday, which is to say every low-level binder.) Even with Paimon bound, your rapier is +3 to hit and 1d6+3 damage (average 6.5) while the morningstar is +3 to hit and 1d8+3 damage (average 7.5). Andras's improved critical helps the damage issue a little, but then you don't get the Weapon Finesse bonus so the rapier is only +2 to hit, and the improved critical is unreliable even against enemies where it works (which of course is nowhere near all the enemies you'll encounter). One thing that you absolutely have to remember for the binder is that just because a vestige gives you proficiency, nothing says you have to use it. The morningstar is about as good as most of the martial weapons you'll get from vestiges and better than some, and money you spent on weapons you can only use with one vestige bound is money wasted any time you don't bind those vestiges. I do understand your point, though. The sickle is in there just for zombies, true, but I seem to encounter them at L1 every game I play. I guess a dagger would be just as good. I'm not sure you got my point: The longspear, properly used, is an absolute zombie destroyer. Zombies have no ability to move and attack in the same round unless they charge, which means you can deal double damage plus an AoO every round with a longspear - even with their damage reduction, that's more than the sickle gets you (especially since the sickle, as a light weapon, can't be two-handed for extra damage.) It is absolutely superior to the sickle in that as well as zombies, it has a high level of utility for other fights. If you really feel nervous about the DR, see if you can get the fauchard from Dragon Compendium - it's essentially a slashing longspear. It can't be set against a charge, but it's a slashing weapon that you might actually want to use against non-zombie enemies.
#200 BloodDragon Jan 24, 2008 13:25:37	Unofficial stuff, but worth a share: James Jacobs Former Editor-in-Chief of the long lost Dragon and Dungeon magazines, created a newVestige (The Green Lady) which he claims is suppose to appear in the Age of Worms compendium whenever/IF-ever that project is finished. In the mean time it exists in limbo on the Pazio boards.
#201 jameswilliamogle Jan 24, 2008 13:58:43	Unofficial stuff, but worth a share: James Jacobs Former Editor-in-Chief of the long lost Dragon and Dungeon magazines, created a newVestige (The Green Lady) which he claims is suppose to appear in the Age of Worms compendium whenever/IF-ever that project is finished. In the mean time it exists in limbo on the Pazio boards. argh busted link!
#202 jameswilliamogle Jan 24, 2008 14:03:40	Let's say you have Str 14 and Dex 12 with Weapon Focus: Morningstar (not too unlikely; it's what my Savage Tide binder has. Weapon Focus: Something is implied for every low-level binder who wants to go KotSS someday, which is to say every low-level binder.) Even with Paimon bound, your rapier is +3 to hit and 1d6+3 damage (average 6.5) while the morningstar is +3 to hit and 1d8+3 damage (average 7.5). Andras's improved critical helps the damage issue a little, but then you don't get the Weapon Finesse bonus so the rapier is only +2 to hit, and the improved critical is unreliable even against enemies where it works (which of course is nowhere near all the enemies you'll encounter). One thing that you absolutely have to remember for the binder is that just because a vestige gives you proficiency, nothing says you have to use it. The morningstar is about as good as most of the martial weapons you'll get from vestiges and better than some, and money you spent on weapons you can only use with one vestige bound is money wasted any time you don't bind those vestiges. I'm not sure you got my point: The longspear, properly used, is an absolute zombie destroyer. Zombies have no ability to move and attack in the same round unless they charge, which means you can deal double damage plus an AoO every round with a longspear - even with their damage reduction, that's more than the sickle gets you (especially since the sickle, as a light weapon, can't be two-handed for extra damage.) It is absolutely superior to the sickle in that as well as zombies, it has a high level of utility for other fights. If you really feel nervous about the DR, see if you can get the fauchard from Dragon Compendium - it's essentially a slashing longspear. It can't be set against a charge, but it's a slashing weapon that you might actually want to use against non-zombie enemies. Yeah, I just don't see it being that important one way or another. I'll add it to the list.
#203 BloodDragon Jan 24, 2008 15:43:40	argh busted link! Hmn, Work fine for me: http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/dungeon/generalDiscussion/archives/statsForTyralandiScrimm&page=1 [Nolink]http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/dungeon/generalDiscussion/archives/statsForTyralandiScrimm&page=1[nolink]
#204 jameswilliamogle Jan 24, 2008 16:19:21	Wow, that's a very cool vestige! Do you think I'd get in trouble for posting that, the PrC, or any of the stuff over here?
#205 bensan Jan 24, 2008 17:43:53	Yeah, I just don't see it being that important one way or another. I'll add it to the list. Which isn't a big deal, the zombie thing or the rapier thing? The rapier thing is potentially dangerous advice - unless you're already a Dex-focused build, sinking money into a magical rapier powerful enough to matter at any given level will eat a considerable amount of that level's funds for very little return. As for the longspear vs. sickle thing, it's really not a huge issue, but the longspear is broadly useful enough that it definitely deserves to be on the list before sickles do, and possibly/probably (not having tested it yet) above rapiers.
#206 jameswilliamogle Jan 25, 2008 7:10:19	Which isn't a big deal, the zombie thing or the rapier thing? The rapier thing is potentially dangerous advice - unless you're already a Dex-focused build, sinking money into a magical rapier powerful enough to matter at any given level will eat a considerable amount of that level's funds for very little return. As for the longspear vs. sickle thing, it's really not a huge issue, but the longspear is broadly useful enough that it definitely deserves to be on the list before sickles do, and possibly/probably (not having tested it yet) above rapiers. I don't really see how its dangerous advice. But, ok, you've won me over. I'll change the list for 1st level around. Any other suggestions?
#207 jameswilliamogle Jan 25, 2008 7:25:51	I just thought of some cheese, maybe it works maybe it doesn't. Certain vestige granted abilities use Su abilities at your effective binder level, or it just isn't defined what level you use them at. Would your EBL stack with Practiced Spellcaster (or Manifestor) for these purposes? BTW, Zcerryl, I've determined, is broken. I'm not using it ever again.
#208 bensan Jan 25, 2008 8:09:37	I don't really see how its dangerous advice. But, ok, you've won me over. I'll change the list for 1st level around. Any other suggestions? It's only dangerous insofar as (a) people tend to assume the Handbooks on this board will give them good advice, (b) equipment is a major advantage or disadvantage in D&D, and (c) this would be a handbook suggesting that players sink a rather significant percentage of their wealth into a complete or near lack of benefit. The only case where I'd say a magic rapier would be worth it would be an elven Dex-focused binder who starts with free rapier proficiency and a Dex bonus. The sickle advice is not "dangerous" because it's so cheap even by level 1 standards that at worst the player will find on his own he's never using his sickle. I'm not sure a magical longspear is worthwhile, either; by the time it becomes affordable, you're starting to spread out your offensive options, but it's a better choice for Paimon than the rapier. I think I got a little more touchy than usual because you were asking for input, and then when you received input it felt like you were dismissing it out of hand. As far as Practiced Spellcaster or Practiced Manifester adding to binder level, there's no reason it would. Your binder level is neither your caster level nor your manifester level. If your DM wants to create such a feat as a house rule, that's his prerogative, but no such feat exists at present.
#209 naanomi Jan 25, 2008 12:55:51	To all you tank style binders out there, what method works best as a binder to keep enemies locked down or otherwise forced to pay attention to you? Binders don't have a lot of trip synergy, though I suppose could do as well as many with enough feats backing it up... High charisma, so goad is an option (though isn't effective against undead, constructs, casters, etc...) Generally don't do enough damage to use 'stand still' lockdown style effectively... Lack the feats (and lots of immunities) for good 'three mountain style' attempts... Something I'm missing?
#210 nephelim Jan 25, 2008 22:45:26	I just thought of some cheese, maybe it works maybe it doesn't. Certain vestige granted abilities use Su abilities at your effective binder level, or it just isn't defined what level you use them at. Would your EBL stack with Practiced Spellcaster (or Manifestor) for these purposes? BTW, Zcerryl, I've determined, is broken. I'm not using it ever again. I don't see how they could stack? Zcerryl is very powerful... but broken? How so? I haven't used it yet, so I'm asking honestly... I love the idea of summoning stuff. Personally, I equip all my Binders, as a matter of course, with Morphing weapons becasue of the proficiency issues mentioned. Morphing is relatively cheap (+1) and loans any weapon huge adaptability. Another good enhancement for Binders is Sudden Stunning from the DMG2. Binders will routinely have insanely high CHA mods, which determines the number of times per day the ability can be used, as well as its save DC.
#211 jameswilliamogle Jan 28, 2008 8:05:36	Let me clarify on Zceceryl: Alien form: While bound to Zceryll, you gain the pseudonatural template (page 161 of Complete Arcane). Doesn't seem like that big of a deal, but this does give you DR 5/magic and Electricity and Acid resistance 10 the earliest you bind him, and spell resistance 20, minimum. Alien Mind: Your mind is alien and does not work like that of a normal mortal. You are immune to confusion, insanity, and weird spells. In addition, you receive a +1 bonus per four binder levels on saving throws against mind-affecting effects. Immunities are eventually granted by Binder levels, but this is early. I don't think this is a problem. Bolts of Madness: You can fire a ray that dazes an opponent for 1d3 rounds. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack with a range of 100 ft. + 10 ft./binder level. A successful Will save negates the effect. Once you have used this ability, you cannot do so again for 5 rounds. Daze the enemy d3 rounds is a REALLY good ability. This alone doesn't make it too powerful. Summon Alien: You can summon any creature from the summon monster list that a sorcerer of your level could summon. Any creature you summon with this ability gains the pseudonatural template. Thus, at 10th level you could summon any creature from the summon monster I-V list. When you reach 14th level, you can summon any creature from the summon monster I-VII list. You can only summon creatures that can be affected by the pseudonatural template. Once you have used this ability, you cannot do so again for 5 rounds. OK, so every 5 rounds, from the time you wake up, you can summon a creature that has true strike 1/day, and lasts until it dies. It doesn't have a duration equal to Summon Monster; Summon Monster is just the subset of monster list you can get. So, you have creatures that are going to hit once, almost guaranteed, and every 5 rounds you bring in another. Yeah, thats broken: unlimited army. Telepathy: You gain the telepathy ability with a range of 100 feet (as described on page 316 of the Monster Manual) and the Mindsight feat (as described on page 126 of Lords of Madness). OK, so I'm never surprised by anything without Mindblank or with a mind. I've always thought that Mindsight was way too powerful, but to get it with no real investment is broken. How would I fix it? Make Summon Alien identical in all aspects to the Summon Monster spell (pseudonatural is ok), and remove the Mindsight bonus feat. I hate using house rules, though, and would rather never use.
#212 bensan Jan 28, 2008 8:14:42	Actually, I believe if you look back in this thread you'll see a post from the vestige's designer saying that Summon Alien is supposed to have the same duration and casting time as Summon Monster, with the differences being that Summon Alien always applies pseudonatural and can only summon one creature per shot. Yes, it is flagrantly and obviously broken if it's not given a duration, to the point that I'm slightly amazed anyone actually got away with playing it like that. This still leaves Zceryll extraordinarily powerful thanks to the huge variety of out-of-combat spell-likes, but at least you don't have the Night Of A Million Zillion Hound Archons to contend with and the casting time is a slight extra buffer. edit: Post #121, top of page 5 edit #2: Also, your "when you bind him" is technically incorrect - if you read the fluff, Zceryll is female. So.. "when you bind her". Sorry, it's not really a big deal, but it bugs me a little when people ignore that. Aym, too.
#213 jameswilliamogle Jan 28, 2008 8:30:47	edit: Post #121, top of page 5 Thanks for that; I didn't remember that. I still think all the abilities collectively are too powerful. edit #2: Also, your "when you bind him" is technically incorrect - if you read the fluff, Zceryll is female. So.. "when you bind her". Sorry, it's not really a big deal, but it bugs me a little when people ignore that. Aym, too. :P
#214 jameswilliamogle Jan 28, 2008 8:39:23	Another good enhancement for Binders is Sudden Stunning from the DMG2. Binders will routinely have insanely high CHA mods, which determines the number of times per day the ability can be used, as well as its save DC. How did I miss this? Thats freakin' awesome on a Binder's weapon, and cheap! And a Ref save, to avoid being stunned?! That's the weakest save at high level play! By chance, is that an SLA or a Su?
#215 nephelim Jan 28, 2008 11:43:12	Its a weapon enhancement, so I don't know which it would be considered. Its not even a +# add-on, its a flat-rate cost with a scaling effect. Stoooopid powerful for Binders. I usually add (un-)Holy Surge as well, it uses a similar mechanic. I don't have my books with me right now, so I can't get you the particulars, but I'll post them when I can (obviously within the normal usage guidelines).
#216 jameswilliamogle Jan 28, 2008 12:30:41	Its a weapon enhancement, so I don't know which it would be considered. Its not even a +# add-on, its a flat-rate cost with a scaling effect. Stoooopid powerful for Binders. I usually add (un-)Holy Surge as well, it uses a similar mechanic. I don't have my books with me right now, so I can't get you the particulars, but I'll post them when I can (obviously within the normal usage guidelines). Actually, Sudden Stunning is so powerful that I emailed my DM to get it ok'd, and he emailed back saying: 1. Spend the Swift Action before the attack roll; and 2. its now a Fort save. (Un)holy surge is +2d6 damage Cha mod / day to a (good) evil creature for 2k gp. Not bad, either, I think (though its a swift action again, so I don't like the combination of the two). I just edited in some of the more recent info into the front page.
#217 bensan Jan 28, 2008 14:13:02	Thanks for that; I didn't remember that. I still think all the abilities collectively are too powerful. Zceryll definitely gives more pound-for-pound than almost any other vestige. In particular, there's a huge amount packed into Pseudonatural alone: spell resistance, energy resistances and DR/magic are obvious, but you also get outsider traits, which include darkvision and full martial proficiency. The alternate form and True Strike 1/day are essentially just gravy on that. Bolts of Madness is pretty strong, although it should be noted it requires both an attack roll and a saving throw. Mindsight's big issue, I've found (with other characters using it, not binders), isn't so much a question of surprise as it is of bookkeeping for the DM - it is really a pain in the ass to keep track of what the players are "seeing" two or three rooms ahead of them in the dungeon. Note that although mindlessness prevents Mindsight from working, it's neither a mind-affecting effect nor a divination, so strictly speaking Mind Blank doesn't prevent it from being effective. (Likewise, undead with Int scores are entirely spottable.) That said, it tells you nothing except the creature's type and Int score - a rat and a dire tiger are identical to Mindsight. Summon Alien is not a huge deal in combat. I mean, it's nice to summon an Earth Elemental with True Strike, but once the duration is fixed and Night Of A Million Zillion Hound Archons is removed it falls subject to the usual problem of summons without Augment Summoning being way behind on effectiveness against enemies of the level. Personally I'd probably summon a Xong-Yong (Planar Handbook) and let it make sonic-boosted incorporeal touch attacks for the rest of the fight. One thing that is worth noting is that, as written and even with the designer clarifications, Summon Alien appears to give you full access to all summoning choices, even those that would normally require a swap-out on the list, with the exception of those that specify clerics of particular kinds for the swap-out (like that one fungus that only clerics of Zuggtmoy can summon). The real issue with Summon Alien is out of combat. Access to the wide variety of spell-likes makes Zceryll a better healer than Buer, a better info-gatherer than Malphus or Chupoclops, gets you all-you-can-eat free Raise Dead and Animate Dead, and starts giving you frankly ridiculous solutions to noncombat problems when you start really getting into the possibilities of it. This is honestly where Zceryll has the potential of moving from "strong" to "broken" and the only advice I can give is that, for your own self-defense and avoidance of Rocks Fall Everyone Dies, you should try to keep it in your pants.
#218 jameswilliamogle Jan 28, 2008 14:28:36	I'd just rather not use it :P. The game I'm in now currently has a extremely powerful Cleric (Divine Metamagic Maximize + Darkfire is a killer, when he can beat SR), a Warblade that acts our usual combat-ender, a Wizard that mostly blasts, but does do some crowd control (he has bad spell-management issues), a Swordsage / Rogue that unfortunately isn't very useful in combat, and only mildly so outside of it, and my Binder. I didn't optimize him, as I didn't really see the need, and I didn't want to step on the other player's toes: he's got Improved Binding of course, and also Expel Vestige as the L8 bonus feat, but I also picked up the Fey Power and Presence feats, just for the fun of it. Hardly optimized for any role, really. He does have his moments, though, like when I landed the 1/day confusion, 1/day charm monster, and Haures's Phantasmal Killer in three consecutive rounds against some advanced Xorns, which was cool, and then went ethereal with Chupoclops right after to avoid being detected. Also, making my own Veil of Allure and buying a Soul Lens at L10 is very nice. :D My Savage Tide Binder was much better at hand-to-hand, but the Age of Worms character has a lot more general utility going for him.
#219 bensan Jan 28, 2008 14:35:05	I'd just rather not use it :P Well, that's a matter of taste, of course. I suppose my only point was that Zceryll is really not broken in terms of combat, just very powerful. It's out-of-combat shenanigans that give her brokenness potential. The plan with my binder in Savage Tide is to take Zceryll as my Sacred Seal, possibly with Favored Vestige to get the better monsters a little earlier. The feats will probably be generic tank/melee/Power Attack business, so it would technically be better from a combat optimization perspective to take Chupoclops or some such as my Sacred Seal as soon as possible. My tendency, though, is to prefer some versatility rather than hyperfocus on combat, and Zceryll's backstory is rather flavorful for the character. I guess as a consequence of this I spend more time thinking about Zceryll's use than entirely necessary, but considering her possibilities as well as the moderation required will be important to me later.
#220 jameswilliamogle Jan 28, 2008 14:45:30	Well, continue posting your adventures. I thought it too powerful, but maybe I was just jumping on the "all day powers too good!!! nerf! nerf!" bandwagon.
#221 bensan Jan 28, 2008 16:11:15	Well, continue posting your adventures. I thought it too powerful, but maybe I was just jumping on the "all day powers too good!!! nerf! nerf!" bandwagon. The basic issue is that all-day powers are only as good as the opportunity to use them makes them. For this reason, Bolts of Madness (which is quite good, don't get me wrong) isn't "as much as you want", but rather a matter of dazing a target perhaps twice, three times for a very long fight, while the wizard spends his time spamming out Black Tentacles or whatever heinous battlefield shutdown the wizard is fond of. The five-round recharge is a very effective limiter on combat abilities. What makes it an issue with Summon Alien is that it is not just a combat ability thanks to spell-likes. You can summon djinn to Major Creation all the goodies you please (plant matter djinn create is permanent, and they have good Craft checks), celestials to Cure Wounds for between-battle healing, hollyphants to Raise Dead, artaagliths to Animate Dead, whatever. Outside of that particular application, I do not think Zceryll is in strong need of nerfing. Anyway, yeah. We'll see how it goes when I get there, but level 10 is a long way off for a poor little binder who just dinged 2.
#222 phoenix00 Jan 29, 2008 14:58:55	Crossposting this thread here for other people to use later. Chameleon+Binder+Bloodlines http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=984755
#223 phoenix00 Jan 29, 2008 19:48:29	Crossposting the second and the real serious build I am thinking off. It is also my favorite of the two, and I am just having a lot of fun planning the character and hoping I will have even more fun playing him Dragon Kobold+Anima Mage+Bloodlines http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=984949
#224 beholderbob Jan 30, 2008 0:32:15	Actually, the summoning isn't ungodly downtime power. You can only summon monsters that can have the pseudonatural template applied to them - in place of the fiendish template. So creatures that normally can receive that template get this one instead, so no djinni, demons, devils, angels, etc.
#225 bensan Jan 30, 2008 1:07:46	Actually, the summoning isn't ungodly downtime power. You can only summon monsters that can have the pseudonatural template applied to them - in place of the fiendish template. So creatures that normally can receive that template get this one instead, so no djinni, demons, devils, angels, etc. By the ability as written, and confirmed by the designer clarification, it adds the pseudonatural template if possible onto whatever is listed for the Summon Monster, therefore yielding Pseudonatural Celestial Dogs, Pseudonatural Earth Elementals, and ordinary non-pseudonatural Energons (because energons, being incorporeal, are ineligable for the pseudonatural template). You are getting Summon Alien confused with the Alienist prestige class, which has the summoning restriction you describe rather than the effect Zceryll uses.
#226 mplindustries Jan 30, 2008 1:13:27	Actually, the summoning isn't ungodly downtime power. You can only summon monsters that can have the pseudonatural template applied to them - in place of the fiendish template. So creatures that normally can receive that template get this one instead, so no djinni, demons, devils, angels, etc. You can only summon creatures that can have the psuedonatural template applied to them. It says nothing about "in place of." They actually end up with two templates if they are normally fiendish. The only actual requirement of Psuedonatural according to complete arcane is that the creature is corporeal. This means yes to Djinni, demons, devils, angels, etc. The only thing it excludes are incorporeal creatures. You could even have Psuedonatural elementals...somehow. I really do like the idea of Binder + Chameleon. I wish I had prepared for it earlier and taken a bloodline, but we're already level 9 in the game I'm currently in. Binder is just fine so far though, and I'm loving it. Zceryll will be my Knight of the Sacred Seal choice as soon as possible.
#227 bensan Jan 30, 2008 8:25:26	You can only summon creatures that can have the psuedonatural template applied to them. This is the case with the ability as listed in the article, although per the designer clarification: "Any creature you summon that is eligible (the significant majority) has the pseudonatural template (and yes, that means you can summon a pseudonatural celestial badger if you like)." Which seems to indicate that it is intended to be possible to summon creatures which are ineligible for the template. Since the rest of the designer clarification stuff serves to actually render Zceryll playable, I tend to think allowing incorporeal summons (of which there are few) is a minor enough tradeoff.
#228 mplindustries Jan 30, 2008 13:39:52	This is the case with the ability as listed in the article, although per the designer clarification: "Any creature you summon that is eligible (the significant majority) has the pseudonatural template (and yes, that means you can summon a pseudonatural celestial badger if you like)." Which seems to indicate that it is intended to be possible to summon creatures which are ineligible for the template. Since the rest of the designer clarification stuff serves to actually render Zceryll playable, I tend to think allowing incorporeal summons (of which there are few) is a minor enough tradeoff. A celestial badger is already eligible, so I don't see that adding anything. Oh, I see your point. You are saying that "Any creature you summon that is eligible (the significant majority)" suggests you can summon things that are otherwise ineligible, correct? It could also be read as "Remember how you can summon only those things which are eligible for the psuedonatural template (aka corporeal)? Well they all get the psuedonatural template in addition to their current one, if any. So you know, its not just a Psuedonatural badger, its a Psuedonatural Celestial Badger." I don't think its terribly powerful to summon incorporeals with that ability. There are very few. I would not object to allowing it. I just don't think thats what is intended. Why would "Summon Alien" be usable to summon things decidedly not alien? (Aka that don't have the psuedonatural template)? And as a final note, I actually don't like his clarifications because he changes the summoning to a full-round action, and that is...annoying.
#229 bensan Jan 30, 2008 13:45:12	Oh, I see your point. You are saying that "Any creature you summon that is eligible (the significant majority)" suggests you can summon things that are otherwise ineligible, correct? That is correct. It implies that a majority, but not all, of the creatures you summon are eligible for the pseudonatural template. As for the flavor issue.. energons are floating balls of light and tentacles, that's pretty alien to me. ;) You're right that vivacious creatures and such are a bit off-flavor, though. I agree that the power being a full-round is more annoying than it being a standard action, but you take what you get. The clarifications make it playable by removing the outright broken Night Of A Million Zillion Hound Archons abuse.
#230 phoenix00 Jan 31, 2008 13:20:54	This is a build idea that came to me in the middle of the night, after being sleep deprived. I remember what widow http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14752609&postcount=8 and Gerdeg http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=11436120&postcount=19 said about fiend of possession and I combined the two. Here is the build. My Magnum Opus, Fiend of Possession+Bloodlines+Binder http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=985707
#231 NiteCyper Feb 04, 2008 5:27:30	This link should be in the handbook. Donated by JWM.
#232 jameswilliamogle Feb 04, 2008 7:55:28	Added. also added phoenix00's bloodline builds, the paizo stuff, added a section on the bloodlines under the second post under races, and an iconic anima mage build, and a specialized dread necro anima mage.
#233 jameswilliamogle Feb 05, 2008 19:38:04	Does anybody have any clever tricks that can be done with Desharis's Animate Objects? How does one usually use it? Adamantine wheelbarrows with large flags on them and chains off the side??? I was also looking for PrCs that are really focused on one spell that the Binder could emulate via vestige granted abilities. I'm planning on coming up with alternative entry requirements that would advance binding as spellcasting, and have similar abilities to the PrC (all homebrew, I guess, though I'd put the adaptations here). So far I've got: Master of the Unseen Hand: thinking about Ronove's Far Hand as one potential method of entry Malconvoker: seems easy to get Zeceryl's Summon Alien to qualify, and feels very, very fitting for a Binder Mindspy: Dantalion's abilities are very fitting Any othe ideas?
#234 bensan Feb 05, 2008 20:03:08	I was also looking for PrCs that are really focused on one spell that the Binder could emulate via vestige granted abilities. Shadowcraft Mage (Haures' Major Image) It would be incredibly broken, though. So, y'know. There's that.
#235 jameswilliamogle Feb 05, 2008 22:59:40	Elan Druid 1 / Binder 4 / Tenebrous Apostate 4 / Knight of the Sacred Seal 5 / Monteblank 3 / Devil Major Bloodline 3 Using Druidic Avenger; letting the vestige Tenebrous count for the turn / rebuke requirement Feats 3 Improved Binding 5b Deceitful 6 Practiced Spellcaster: Druid What does this get you? EBL 21, or 4 vestiges, full vestige abilities CL 12 for druid spells, access to 3rd level Druid spells Alter Self at will for two set Aberration, Outsider, or normal forms 2/day 20' dimension door for free d6 Sneak Attack Whats the main trick? Use Venomfire (hopefully maximized via the cheapest maximize rod) while in the form of a Shrieking Terror to have 5 natural attacks at +72 damage each. Bind Chupoclops so that all your attacks (natural and normal) have Ghost Touch on them. Use Umbral Body (TA L4) to stay incorporeal for 21 rounds while you wail on your enemy for normal +350 acid damage per round. Other vestiges are icing on the cake. ***************** I can't believe that noone noticed the combo of Chupoclops and Tenebrous Apostate L4 yet... that's just sick... You don't need the Venomfire or anything to make that really, really good. The Montebank levels could be removed if you bound Karsus and used a wand of alter self, but I like the class ability better.
#236 jameswilliamogle Feb 05, 2008 23:01:58	Shadowcraft Mage (Haures' Major Image) It would be incredibly broken, though. So, y'know. There's that. Well, maybe... you can't Heighten the Su ability, so you'd be a little more limited... but 1/5 rounds is... yeah, I'm not going to try to do that one...
#237 jameswilliamogle Feb 07, 2008 23:29:13	I just gotta say this w.r.t. the Age of Worms game I'm playing a Binder in: the Cha based Fey Presence and Power absolutely pwn the enemies we're facing if I can beat spell resistance. Coupled with a few vestige save-or-suck abilities, and I could probably be playing a totally non-combat Binder. Three sessions in a row I've Confused, Charmed, and Paralyzed enemies totally removing them from the fight (tonight, 3 enemies out of 3 failed Will to be confused, and I managed to charm another monster in a fight, paralyzing another... it was sick). Starting Cha of 16, the DC of the spell likes is at a 22 and the Su abilities at a 25. It gives me about a 60-80% success rate at L12, now. I totally think its worth spending the feat slots for these abilities: the Wizard can't come close to matching those DCs, even with his highest level spells. Tenebrous's Rebuke sucks, though.
#238 Omen_of_Peace Feb 08, 2008 1:37:54	Even an Enchanter/Master Specialist with SF, GSF, Fey Power, the Veil of Allure, and so on ? They Charm better than you, at least. Don't get me wrong - I love Binders, and the DCs of the Su abilities are great, but the DCs of the SLAs do not seem out of reach.
#239 jameswilliamogle Feb 08, 2008 7:42:26	Even an Enchanter/Master Specialist with SF, GSF, Fey Power, the Veil of Allure, and so on ? They Charm better than you, at least. Don't get me wrong - I love Binders, and the DCs of the Su abilities are great, but the DCs of the SLAs do not seem out of reach. When I say "The Wizard can't match those DCs" I mean our Wizard... I'll do the math. Assumes a starting 18 Int (I started w/ a 16 Cha): 10 +5 Int base (@ L12) +2 Int item +1 SF +1 GSF +1 Fey Power +2 Veil of Allure = 22 (I tie at a 22!) That goes up to a 27 when the +5 tome and +6 item are obtained (say, L18). I'll have a save DC of 26 at the same point (28 at 20th level). Their 9th level spells will beat my DC, of course, at a DC of 32, but its a close freakin' race! Of course they'll be better: they've got higher level spells that will add progressively better DCs. But if your party doesn't have an enchanter, then DAMN the Binder is pretty darn competitive, and the items I'm buying feel much more synergistic to my entire class! And that's a pretty focused Enchanter! (Also, I'm making the items, maybe a level before anyone in the party can get the equivalent stuff, due to cash-flow issues of everyone else; the enchanter doesn't have the capability to make anything other than scrolls, and has to buy a lot of spells, so its not entirely likely that they'll have items quite as easily as this example suggests.) I took the feats more for fun than for function, but its nice that they are actually worth a damn! Confusion is a blast; I love rolling the enemy's reactions! And Summon Nature's Ally 5 for 2 (on average) huge crocodiles is working wonders when we're getting rolled over by some baddies! I'm doing a lot of Acerak and Tenebrous: that flicker ability is killer, and the Paralyzing Touch is a slow instant death. I will probably switch Tenebrous to Ronove, since the Wizard just got a Ring of Wizardry 3, and has agreed to cast Greater Mighty Wollop on me :D. 8d6 unarmed strikes... fun!
#240 subedei Feb 08, 2008 9:47:09	Shadowcraft Mage (Haures' Major Image) It would be incredibly broken, though. So, y'know. There's that. Shadowcraft Mage specifically references spells. Haures' Major Image ability is not a spell, it merely acts like one.
#241 jameswilliamogle Feb 08, 2008 10:11:44	Shadowcraft Mage specifically references spells. Haures' Major Image ability is not a spell, it merely acts like one. The whole point was to come up with some homebrew content that would give some flexibility for the Binder (requiring some adaptation). Shadowcraft Mage in particular is probably too strong for 1/5 round usage, though. There's a lot of arcane/divine casting PrCs that don't get a lot of use, due to casting level losses, that seem very flavorful for a Binder (fiendblooded, greenstar adept, alienist, malconvoker, master of the unseen hand, for example). Some minor tweaking might make for some interesting characters: I'm thinking about switching arcane casting with EBL requirements, and for specific spell requirements letting specific Su abilities work (advancing EBL instead of arcane / divine casting). I haven't checked out all the PrCs yet, but I might compile a list this weekend.
#242 subedei Feb 08, 2008 10:27:00	Ahhh, that's what I get for not reading the rest of the thread. Well, I'd actually allow that in my game. 1/5 rounds (or even 1/4 rounds) is infrequent enough to force you into completely different tactics. You're vastly weaker than a Wizard based Shadowcraft Mage. Theoretically you could keep going at full strength when the Wizard is out of effective spells, but in my experience you just don't fight enough in a given day for that to become a major issue, especially with a Focused Specialist. I think the main issue is how to scale it. Major image is a 3rd level spell, so can you only emulate 3rd level and lower spells? If so, then this is definitely not too strong; 3rd level spells at will is just not that good compared to say, a Warlock (which is a bit weak for a primary caster anyway). Technically you can't heighten it either, so it'd actually be 2nd level. Another way to do it would be to model the ability after Zceryll's summoning power. Your Major Image ability counts as a level equal to the maximum a Sorcerer could cast. Since you can only emulate a spell of one level LOWER than the slot used, this would mean a character with Binder Level 10 would be able to cast all 4th level and lower sorcerer/wizard spells from 1.5 schools once every 5, and potentially 4 rounds. I'd say this is still totally balanced for MY games, your mileage my vary of course.
#243 bensan Feb 08, 2008 10:47:02	Shadowcraft Mage specifically references spells. Haures' Major Image ability is not a spell, it merely acts like one. Which is why I mentioned it in response to a post asking about PrCs focused around a specific spell or spell-like ability which could be adapted to binder use. edit: ninja'd.
#244 jameswilliamogle Feb 08, 2008 12:22:21	I see what you are saying Subedei... If it didn't scale, casting conjuration and evocation spells every 5 rounds of 2nd or 1st level wouldn't be that bad. Its in line with the other vestige abilities, I think (not as powerful as some, but much more flexible than nearly all). It would use the Binder's DCs, which would be vastly superior to any 1-2nd level spell from a regular caster, so they would work much more regularly, and they'd be Supernatural, so no pesky SR issues. If it were able to mimic higher level spells, I don't think it would fly in any game I've played in (except for one which was so munchkin that it was ridiculous). High DC Grease and free Magic Tatoos are good enough to justify a few levels, I think!
#245 subedei Feb 09, 2008 9:56:44	I'd call it woefully underpowered compared to a Wizard based Shadowcraft Mage and almost definitely not worth the investment unless you can mimic higher level spells. Evocation and a handful of Conjuration spells of a level lower than your Wizard will be able to cast once every 5 rounds is NOT all that powerful. In your average adventuring day you'll be able to cast what, 4-5 spells? And you slowed your Binding progression to get this? Big deal. Your wizard will be casting about 20, and they'll be much, much better.
#246 jameswilliamogle Feb 09, 2008 10:08:46	I'd call it woefully underpowered compared to a Wizard based Shadowcraft Mage and almost definitely not worth the investment unless you can mimic higher level spells. Evocation and a handful of Conjuration spells of a level lower than your Wizard will be able to cast once every 5 rounds is NOT all that powerful. In your average adventuring day you'll be able to cast what, 4-5 spells? And you slowed your Binding progression to get this? Big deal. Your wizard will be casting about 20, and they'll be much, much better. No slowdown of EBL at all (letting +1 arcane spellcasting add +1 EBL instead), and comparing a Binder / ScM to a Wizard / ScM isn't really a fair comparison.
#247 subedei Feb 09, 2008 10:26:17	comparing a Binder / ScM to a Wizard / ScM isn't really a fair comparison. Hence the Binders shadow illusions should scale.
#248 jameswilliamogle Feb 09, 2008 10:28:38	Hence the Binders shadow illusions should scale. I'm still not really convinced... they'd still have their other Binder goodies. Anyways, since the whole concept is homebrew anyways, anyone could use either one
#249 jameswilliamogle Feb 13, 2008 19:54:37	I just noticed (while still looking for the Binder Epic advancement they were supposed to put out in Dragon 361) that Agares is now an infernal lord... Anyways, here it is (need D&D Insider). edit: also found Acerak (also need D&D Insider). He's at the end of those PDFs
#250 bensan Feb 13, 2008 20:19:32	Okay, some more Savage Tide binder stuff. We've had some scheduling issues so this is the result of a couple of short sessions we had (since we play online, getting to the game isn't a great investment of effort, so we can afford to do some short sessions if people's schedules require it.) Show Of course, it doesn't help that not much happened. We got back to town uneventfully with some loot; I swapped my breastplate down/sideways to a chain shirt (Aym is the only vestige that gives medium armor proficiency). We did some nosing around and the changeling wizard did a little incognito spying; our target had fled to a taxidermy guildhall. So it's time for a daring late-night raid! I bound Dahlver-Nar for this purpose. Our first encounter was with a taxidermist. The factotum sapped him and the wizard hit him in the gut with her quarterstaff, and he folded. We went down into the basement to explore the passages, which were complex, boring, and we didn't find anything except another exit, so we decided to go back and interrogate the taxidermist (I Aided Another the cleric on Intimidate here; I don't have ranks but Cha bonus + Bluff synergy is enough for Aid Another.) He knew a little, but nothing about the contents of the basement. So, back down we went, and eventually ran across some kind of wolf thing on a bed of bloody hay. The plan was for the factotum, the duskblade, and my binder to surround him, the factotum to coup de grace him, then, if it survived, for him to back off so the duskblade and I would be flanking it. Unfortunately, the duskblade whiffed his Move Silently, decided "the hell with it", popped a Blade of Blood and critted the thing for around 30 damage. The warlock dropped an eldritch blast on it, and it died. So, yeah. Dahlver-Nar has done all of nothing so far. We'll see how it goes, though! Oh, and we found a chest with the taxidermist's life savings, but as far as we could tell he just worked there and there's a fine line between "pursuing an investigation" and "armed robbery". So we left it alone.
#251 jameswilliamogle Feb 13, 2008 20:26:55	thats almost exactly what happened with us... i think i had malphus.
#252 jameswilliamogle Feb 15, 2008 6:49:24	I'm starting to lose my faith in baby jesus... Does Rapid Pact Making remove the need for a Binder to draw the vestige's seal? If it doesn't, the feat doesn't seem to really do much, since one can bind as a full round action at -10 (from p.10, second paragragh, second column). Also, the very last sentence on p10 seems to contradict the text of the Vestige Phylactery. Can't a Vestige Phylactery essentially expel a vestige, too, if the Binder was at its maximum vestige capacity? There's also one sentence under the Vestige Phylactery text that is a bit vague: it says that the Binder remains bound based on the time the vestige was bound in the phylactery. What exactly does that mean? Does it mean that the Binder remains bound an equal amount of time as the vestige was in the phylactery? Also, is drawing the seal for a vestige considered a special requirement for that vestige? Does Ignore Special Requirement alleviate the need for a seal? Complex rule interactions should always be, quite frankly, adjudicated by your Dungeon Master. However there are a few sources beyond the rule books that you and your Dungeon Master can use to determine the most usable and fun solution for your game. You may want to start by checking out our FAQ and errata documents online at our website. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rules Many players and Dungeon Masters also read and ask questions on our message boards and chat rooms to discover what other Dungeon Masters have done in similar situations. http://boards1.wizards.com/community_home.php Your Dungeon Master is ultimately responsible for deciding how he/she wants to handle any such issue however, and with all the tools currently available it should be relatively easy to adjudicate this matter fairly, as well as in the spirit of making the game as fun as it can be. Please let me know if you need anymore help! edit: FINALLY! I apologize for any misunderstanding. 1. Rapid pact making doesn't actually say how it speeds the process; such a decision in terms of description would be left to your DM. However, it does eliminate the -10 penalty to do the pact as a full round action. 2. The vestige phylactery is a magic item. Often times, magic items are capable of circumventing a number of rules. This is one of those times. 3. The feat Ignore Special Requirement will only apply to whatever's stated in a Vestige's Special Requirement entry. Consequently, you would only be able to skip that portion of the pact if it was mentioned in the Special Requirement entry.
#253 jameswilliamogle Feb 15, 2008 8:09:08	I just noticed an item from Complete Mage that might work with a Binder... what do you guys think? A rod of shadowblending infuses your normal illusions with shadow, making them partially real. This effect allows you to transform any casting of either minor image or major image into a casting of shadow conjuration, and any casting of major image into shadow evocation. 3/day. Do you guys think the wording is vague enough for Haures's Major Image to work?
#254 BloodDragon Feb 15, 2008 10:11:38	I just noticed an item from Complete Mage that might work with a Binder... what do you guys think? 3/day. Do you guys think the wording is vague enough for Haures's Major Image to work? Rod of Shadowbending; Completel Mage, Page 128 I think the wording was left vague so Warlocks could get use out of it, Because it does not specifically state “spell” anywhere. As such it's looks good to go for Binders as well. A mini-Shadowcraft Mage in a Rod.
#255 nephelim Feb 15, 2008 12:59:30	But SLA's and Supernats are not "cast" ... they don't normally fulfill casting requirements for Prestige classes, I don't see how they would work here. I think if it said "use of" rather than "casting of" it would work... I'd house-rule in favor of it, but I think RAW it would not fly.
#256 jameswilliamogle Feb 15, 2008 13:09:12	But SLA's and Supernats are not "cast" ... they don't normally fulfill casting requirements for Prestige classes, I don't see how they would work here. I think if it said "use of" rather than "casting of" it would work... I'd house-rule in favor of it, but I think RAW it would not fly. Heh, says who :D? I don't see a definition for "cast", lol! Anyways, its definitely DM dependent. Since my Binders tend to be very good at being Binders, I don't see a DM I'm playing with letting it work.
#257 BloodDragon Feb 15, 2008 15:50:06	Looking up other equipment / enchantments and a few things popped out. Trying to make use of all those proficiencies which many, many of the vestiges grant. Do these ideas work? Base item Double-bladed Sword (Or any other doubleweapons): Make sure one side is master-work at lest, and enchant the other with +1 Morphing. As per the Morphing description from the MIC, when you morph a double weapon, the weapon itself maintains the morphing trait but you can decide between the two heads which enchantments will be active in the new form. Granted you can only change weapons into other weapons of the same size and type gnome hooked Hammers and Dwarf Urgrosh are two type simotaniously, or any other weapon which does two kinds of damage. Next idea will take a little doing Take the Sectioned armour from the Planar handbook, and slap on the Called enchantment for +2000 gp. Then depending on your proficiencies of the day, you call amount of armour you wish to wear as a standard action, and simply have the rest you aren’t wearing appear at your feet. Ideally you never want to take off the “Fully Reduced” section because you can sleep in it and never have to worry about where the rest is! Even if someone else is holding the removed section plates it you can still call it.
#258 jameswilliamogle Feb 15, 2008 19:00:18	Although the vestiges do grant weapon proficiencies, I disagree that its necessary to use them. Really, you are tieing yourself to one or two vestiges, and investing heavily in them (I don't like the idea, personally, but if you come up with something great, I'm down). Morphing is a good enchantment for any melee-focused character, though... The Sectioned armor idea is good, though there's another thing from MIC that lets you sleep in armor.
#259 jameswilliamogle Feb 22, 2008 8:42:32	A new, ToM only basic combo (I think it works): Marchosias + Malphus + Paimon + haste (boots of speed, etc): You stay invisible for 3 rounds, studying every enemy on the battlefield (I've seen a precedence for this before). Then, you activate the Dance of Death ability, and run through everyone you move past (at 60'), hitting them all with Death Attack (forcing a minimum fort save of 17 with no items and no Cha bonus: likely, it'll be around 27 at this point with no feats invested). It all depends on whether or not your DM allows you to study more than one person at a time... This is all the FAQ says about it: What can or can’t an assassin do while studying a victim for his death attack ability? The assassin’s death attack indicates that he can undertake other actions while studying a target. No specific action is required to maintain the study (for example, it doesn’t require concentration), although the class feature lists two rather vague restrictions placed on the 3 rounds of study. Both of these require DM adjudication. 1. The assassin’s attention must remain focused on the target. The assassin has to keep his victim in view, but can perform any other action he wishes (as long as the action doesn’t break the second restriction). The assassin could even attack another creature while studying a target! 2. The target may not detect the assassin or recognize him as a threat. Note that detection isn’t limited to vision only; being invisible isn’t enough if the target hears the assassin sneaking up behind him. Similarly, if a hidden assassin cast a spell that was overheard or otherwise detected by the victim, the studying would be wasted. Notice there's no mention of a limit on how many people you can study at once. Death Attack text for reference: Death Attack If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin’s choice). While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy. If the victim of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the assassin’s class level + the assassin’s Int modifier) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the assassin. If the victim’s saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the assassin has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds. If a death attack is attempted and fails (the victim makes her save) or if the assassin does not launch the attack within 3 rounds of completing the study, 3 new rounds of study are required before he can attempt another death attack.
#260 Omen_of_Peace Feb 22, 2008 18:25:01	Er... "a target", "a victim". It's always singular. Of course, it doesn't say that it can't be used against multiple creatures, but IMHO this is not a receivable argument. It's probably not an imbalanced houserule though. Also note the "The assassin’s attention must remain focused on the target." It seems pretty hard to remain focused enough on 3 creatures (at the same time) that you'll be able to deliver a blow so precise that it will kill them (not a RAW argument this, simply common sense). You're dividing your time so you study each 1 round only.
#261 jameswilliamogle Feb 22, 2008 18:59:16	I understand the logic completely; that might be how it was intended. If my target was "the mayor and his troops" or "that group of Ogre Magi" for example... well, the Engrish / wording breaks down a bit on the mechanical aspects. I'll just make a note of it neeing DM agreement on the definition of "target" when I update this next.
#262 jameswilliamogle Feb 24, 2008 15:31:59	But SLA's and Supernats are not "cast" ... they don't normally fulfill casting requirements for Prestige classes, I don't see how they would work here. I think if it said "use of" rather than "casting of" it would work... I'd house-rule in favor of it, but I think RAW it would not fly. I just noticed on Canibri that one of the granted powers is to cast fireball 3/day. It uses the cast connotation, and yet is a Su power... So, there's some RAW support for the staff to work with Haures. (Haurus's ability says that it works "as if you had cast Major Image"; its also magical in nature, so... I see a lot of pro arguments.) edit: and, my DM said its good to go
#263 Slad_Chaos Feb 26, 2008 13:51:32	what is the DC for the death attack from Marchosias ?
#264 jameswilliamogle Feb 26, 2008 14:08:37	what is the DC for the death attack from Marchosias ? Same as all binder abilities: 1/2 EBL + Cha mod + any other mods. It can hit the 40s easily with items and feats.
#265 nephelim Feb 27, 2008 10:15:14	For abilities that have no defined save, like Fokalor's lightning Strike, is there a save? In Fokalor's case, (and I'm going from memory here) I would assume that there is an attack roll of some sort, OR a reflex save...
#266 jameswilliamogle Feb 27, 2008 11:22:34	For abilities that have no defined save, like Fokalor's lightning Strike, is there a save? In Fokalor's case, (and I'm going from memory here) I would assume that there is an attack roll of some sort, OR a reflex save... No save unless the ability calls for it. In Focolor's case, yes, Ref 1/2 (mentioned in the ability).
#267 deathtrap Mar 01, 2008 8:16:40	Elan Druid 1 / Binder 4 / Tenebrous Apostate 4 / Knight of the Sacred Seal 5 / Monteblank 3 / Devil Major Bloodline 3 Using Druidic Avenger; letting the vestige Tenebrous count for the turn / rebuke requirement Feats 3 Improved Binding 5b Deceitful 6 Practiced Spellcaster: Druid I like this build. Can anyone think of a 5 level divine casting class with it's own spell progression (like the Trapsmith from Dungeonscape but a divine class)? P.S. It's a shame that Gerdreg guy can't log in as Gerdreg anymore, he was the bomb *wink*.
#268 jameswilliamogle Mar 01, 2008 9:11:41	Corrupt Avenger, Death Delver both have pretty good spell lists. I just checked the races, CD, CM, and didn't see anything... Ardent mixed in with a level of Anima Mage (Psionic adaptation) and a level of another psionic PrC instead of Monteblank can get L6 psionic powers, too, and boost EBL from 21 to 28 (L4 powers and EBL 21 still if Ardent1/Slayer2).
#269 radicaltaoist Mar 02, 2008 17:49:04	You know what would be messed up? Arcane Variant Swordsage or Spells as Powers Variant Erudite run through Anima Mage. Plugging a request for help with this [thread=997888]changeling binder[/thread] build again.
#270 tshern Mar 02, 2008 17:58:19	Seems I've missed that thread in the working frenzy I've had lately. Looks cool and I'll try to do something about it.
#271 Slad_Chaos Mar 04, 2008 13:47:12	Is it possible or not to make a death attack (from Marchosias and Andromalius for the sneak attack) with the all-around vision (from Geryon) and the whirlwind attack (from Paimon) ?
#272 jameswilliamogle Mar 04, 2008 13:50:56	Is it possible or not to make a death attack (from Marchosias and Andromalius for the sneak attack) with the all-around vision (from Geryon) and the whirlwind attack (from Paimon) ? TOTALLY up to your DM. Death Attack requires a "Target"; its up to your DM if "Target" is a singular creature or can refer to a group of beings. If he's old-school, he might actually use the player-favored latter, as its more like a 1e Assasin (who made a plan, then the DM determined success or failure, and didn't rely on a single victim). It can go either way.
#273 deathtrap Mar 07, 2008 11:39:40	I will be getting a chance to play soon so I decided to dust off my last Binder. One of the things I discovered while playing a Binder for awhile is that I frequently (read as almost always) used the same Vestiges. I think this was partly due to laziness as I have the abilities of my favorites memorized and didn't want to spend the time cracking the books while I played. To try and make the most out of the Binder's wonderous versatility this time around, I updated my old cheat sheet with a brief description (just enough that I don't have to open the book every time I choose a different vestige) of the vestige abilities. I am posting it here in case anyone has a use for it. We don't play with campaign specific stuff (so unfortunately no Zceryll for me) or non-splatbook sources (i.e. no Dragon or Dungeon magazine), so please feel free to alter it as you see fit. I tried to use similar termonology for each ability so it would be easy to search for combos (such as making sure both Balam's and Geryon's attacks are listed first as "Gaze attack" or that all skill bonuses say "checks" at the end). Vestiges 1st Level Amon – Darkvision (Darkvivion 60 ft.), Fire Breath (10 ft. per EBL (max 50 ft.) line, 1d6 fire damage per EBL, Reflex save vs. half)*, Ram Attack (1d6 + 1½ Strength bonus damage, plus 1d8 on Charge) Aym - Dwarven Step (can move at normal speed in Medium and Heavy Armor), Halo of Fire (1d6 fire damage when struck in melee, 1d6 fire damage touch attack), Improved Sunder (as Feat), Medium Armor Proficiency (Proficiency with Medium Armor), Resistance to Fire (Resistance to Fire 10), Ruinous Attack (melee attacks deal double damage to objects, melee attacks treated as Adamantine at EBL 10) Leraje - Hide Bonus (+4 Hide checks), Low-light Vision (as special quality), Precise Shot (as Feat), Ricochet (make single attack against two adjacent targets), Weapon Proficiency (Proficiency with Composite Longbow, Composite Shortbow, Longbow, Shortbow, +1 attack rolls with bows) Naberius - Disguise Self (as Spell), Faster Ability Healing (1 pt. per round, 1 pt. per hour if Drained), Naberius’s Skills (make skill checks with Con bonus number of untrained Skills), Persuasive Words (as Command spell, as Suggestion spell at EBL 14)*, Silver Tongue (can take 10 on Diplomacy and Bluff checks) Ronove - Cold Iron and Magic Attacks (melee attacks count as Magic, and Cold Iron at EBL 7), Far Hand (10 ft. per EBL, move object with Strength equal to EBL or Bull Rush with +2 bonus for 1d6 damage)*, Feather Fall (as Spell), Ronove’s Fists (as Improved Unarmed Strike feat plus damage equal to Monk of EBL level), Sprint (+10 ft. land speed) 2nd Level Dahlver-Nar - Mad Soul (Immunity to Wisdom damage, Wisdom drain, Madness, Insanity, and Confusion), Maddening Moan (30’r, Will save or be Dazed for 1 round)*, Natural Armor (+ ½ Con bonus NA), Shield Self (10 ft. per EBL, share half damage with one creature, Will save) Haagenti - Confusing Touch (Touch attack, Will save or be Confused for 1 round per 3 EBLs, as Maze spell at EBL 19)*, Immunity to Transformation (Immunity to Polymorph and Petrification), Shield Proficiency (Proficiency with all Shields), Weapon Proficiency (Proficiency with Battleaxe, Greataxe, Handaxe, and Throwing Axe) Malphas - Bird’s Eye Viewing (Summon Raven plus special), Invisibility (as Spell)*, Poison Use (as Assassin ability), Sudden Strike (as Ninja ability, 1d6 + 1d6 damage per 4 EBLs) Savnok - Call Armor (Summon magic Full Plate Armor), Heavy Armor Proficiency (Proficiency with Heavy Armor), Move Ally (swap positions with ally within 5 ft. per 2 EBLs)*, Savnok’s Armor (DR 1/ Piercing, +1 per 4 EBLs, DR becomes Magic and Piercing at EBL 13) 3rd Level Andromalius - Jester’s Mirth (as Tasha’s Hideous Laughter spell, additional save at end of each turn)*, Locate Item (sense object within 100 ft.), See the Unseen (as See Invisibility spell), Sense Trickery (+4 Sense Motive, Appraise, and Spot checks to oppose Disguise, automatically notice Sleight of Hand attempts), Sneak Attack (as Rogue ability, 2d6 + 1d6 damage per 5 EBLs beyond 5th) Focalor - Aura of Sadness (-2 attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks), Focalor’s Breath (30 ft., Fortitude save or be Blinded for 1 round)*, Lightning Strike (10 ft. per EBL, 3d6 electricity damage + 1d6 per 3 EBLs beyond 5th, Reflex save vs. half), Water Breathing (can breath water) Karsus - Heavy Magic (+2 Magic Item save DCs), Karsus’s Senses (as Detect Magic spell plus special), Karsus’s Touch (as Dispel Magic spell, Touch attack, EBL times per day)*, Karsus’s Will (use items as Wizard of EBL level) Paimon - Dance of Death (move and attack each creature you pass once)*, Paimon’s Blades (Proficiency with Rapier and Short Sword, as Weapon Finesse feat), Paimon’s Dexterity (+4 Dexterity), Paimon’s Skills (+4 Tumble and Perform (Dance) checks), Uncanny Dodge (as Rogue ability), Whirlwind Attack (as Feat) 4th Level Agares - Earth and Air Mastery (+1 attack and damage rolls against foes on ground, -1 attack and damage rolls from airborne foes), Earthshaking Step (10’r, Reflex save or fall prone)*, Elemental Companion (Summon Earth Elemental), Fear Immunity (Immunity to Fear), True Speech (speak, understand, read, and write all languages of creatures within 30 ft.) Andras - Weapon Proficiency (Proficiency with Greatsword, Lance, Longsword and Rapier), Mount (Summon Heavy Warhorse, one hour per EBL, once per day), Saddle Sure (+8 Ride checks), Smite Good or Evil (Smite Good or Evil)*, Sow Discord (5 ft. per 2 EBL, Will save or attack random ally)*, Sure Blows (as Improved Critical Feat, +4 roll to confirm) Buer - Buer’s Knowledge (+4 Heal, Knowledge (Nature), and Survival checks), Buer’s Purity (Immunity to Disease and Poison), Delay Diseases and Poisons (30’r, temporary Immunity to Disease and Poison), Fast Healing (Fast Healing 1, +1 at 10, 13, 16, and 19), Healing Gift (Heal 1 pt., Heal 1d8 + EBL (max 10))*, Track (as Feat) Eurynome - Animal Friend (all Animals are friendly, Damage Reduction (DR 2/ Lawful), Eurynome’s Maul (Summon Large magic Warhammer), Poison Blood (Fortitude save or take 1d6 damage + 1d6 per 3 EBLs (max 5d6)), Water Dancing (as Water Walk spell) Tenebrous - Deeper Darkness (as Spell, centered on you, unlimited duration, shift range), See in Darkness (can see normally in Darkness), Touch of the Void (charge melee attack with 1d8 cold damage + 1d8 per 4 EBLs beyond 7th)*, Turn/ Rebuke Undead (as Cleric ability)*, Vessel of Emptiness (as Flicker mystery once per day plus once per day at EBL 13 and 19) Arete (Mind’s Eye WotC article) – Psionic Boon (13 Power Points), Resistance (+4 to one save of choice), Damage Reduction (DR 5/ -), Repletion (Body Adjustment, Body Purification, and Sustenance powers) Astaroth (Cityscape Web Enhancement) - Angelic Lore (as Bardic Knowledge ability), Astaroth's Breath (60 ft. Cone, Fortitude save or be Nauseated for 1 round plus Sickened for 1d4 rounds, only sickened for 1 round if save)*, Honeyed Tongue (+4 Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks), Master Craftsman (+4 Craft checks, one item creation Feat), Word of Astaroth (as Suggestion spell, only Cha bonus number of people at a time)* 5th Level Acererak - Detect Undead (as Spell), Hide from Undead (as Spell), Lich’s Energy Immunities (Immunity to Cold and Electricity), Paralyzing Touch (Fortitude save or be Paralyzed for ½ EBL rounds)*, Speak with Dead (as Spell), Undead Healing (as Undead) Balam - Balam’s Cunning (reroll one attack, saving throw, or skill check)*, Icy Glare (Gaze attack, 2d6 cold damage, Will save), Prescience (+1 Initiative, Reflex, and AC per 4 EBLs), Weapon Finesse (as Feat) Dantalion - Awe of Dantalion (creatures unable to attack you for 1 round)*, Dantalion Knows (+8 Knowledge checks), Read Thoughts (read surface thoughts of creature, 5 ft. per EBL, Will save), Thought Travel (Teleport 5 ft. per EBL, EBL times per day)* Geryon - Acidic Gaze (Gaze attack, 2d6 acid damage, Will save), All-Around Vision (+4 Spot and Search checks, cannot be Flanked), See in Darkness (can see normally in Darkness), Swift Flight (can Fly 60 ft. for 1 round)* Otiax - Air Blast (10 ft., Touch attack, 2d6 damage), Combat Reflexes (as Feat), Concealing Mist (20% miss chance), Open Portal (as Open/ Close spell, 10 ft. per EBL), Unlock (open lock with DC less than twice EBL)* 6th Level Chupoclops - Aura of Despair (10’r, -2 attack rolls, checks, saves, and damage rolls), Ethereal Watcher (as Ethereal Jaunt spell, cannot take actions)*, Ghost Touch (can attack incorporeal creatures normally in melee), Poison Bite (Bite attack), Pounce (can make Full Attack on Charge), Soul Sense (10 ft. Blindsense against living creatures plus Deathwatch as spell) Haures - Inaccessible Mind (Immunity to all Mind-affecting Spells and Abilities as Mind Blank spell), Incorporeal Movement (partially Incorporeal while Moving), Major Image (as Spell, only one at a time)*, Phantasmal Killer (as Spell, 10 ft. per EBL)* Ipos - Cold Iron Claws (Claw attack, treated as Cold Iron), Flash of Insight (as True Seeing spell for 1 round)*, Ipos’s Influence (+1 save DCs and EBL), Planar Attenuation (protection from the natural effects of a chosen plane), Rend (as special quality) Shax - Freedom of Movement (as Spell, for 1 round)*, Immunity to Electricity (Immunity to Electricity), Storm Strike (charge melee attack with 1d6 electricity and 1d6 sonic damage), Swim Speed (gain Swim speed equal to land speed, +8 Swim checks, can take 10 on Swim checks) Zagan – Aversion (30 ft., Will save or must stay at least 20 ft. away from you, snakes, and yuan-ti for 5 rounds, -4 Dexterity, as Aversion spell)*, Improved Grapple (as Improved Grapple feat, as Large size), Scent (as Scent special quality), Constrict (1d8 + 1½ Strength bonus damage plus normal unarmed damage with successful Grapple check), Snake Bane (+2 attack and +2d6 damage with melee attacks against snakes, snakelike creatures, and creatures with a natural poison attack) Vanus (Design and Development WotC article) - Fear Aura (10’r, Will save or be Shaken or Frightened for ½ EBL rounds), Free Ally (Freedom of Movement, Gaseous Form, or free from Imprisonment)*, Noble Disdain (+1d6 damage against foes with less HD), Vanus’s Ears (+5 Listen checks, +10 vs. Evil) The Triad (Mind’s Eye WotC article) – Psionic Boon (15 Power Points), Call to Mind (as Power), Psicraft Bonus (+5 Psicraft checks), Bardic Knowledge (as Bard ability), Empathy (as Power), Diplomacy Bonus (+5 Diplomacy checks), Smite Evil (as Paladin ability)*, Detect Hostile Intent (as Power), Sense Motive Bonus (+5 Sense Motive checks), Weapon Proficiency (Proficiency with all weapons) Desharis (Cityscape Web Enhancement) - City Dweller (normal Movement Rate through crowds, +6 Gather Information and Knowledge (Local) checks), Infinite Doors (once per day, Teleport 3000 yards through similar doorway), Language of the City (as Tongues spell), Smite Natural Soul (Smite Animal, Elemental, Fey, or Plant)*, Spirits of the City (as Animate Objects spell, only one use at a time)* 7th Level Eligor - Chromatic Strike (charge melee attack with 1d6 acid, cold, electricity or fire damage), Eligor’s Skill in the Saddle (as Ride by Attack and Spirited Charge Feats), Eligor’s Strength (+4 Strength), Eligor’s Resilience (+3 NA, +1 at EBL 16 and 20), Heavy Armor Proficiency (Proficiency with Heavy Armor) Marchosias - Death Attack (as Assassin ability), Fiery Retribution (+3d6 damage against opponents with Sneak Attack, Sudden Strike, or Skirmish), Smoke Form (as Gaseous Form spell, unlimited duration)*, Silent and Sure (+16 Hide and Move Silently checks) 8th Level Ashardalon (Dragon Magic) - Ashardalon's Greed (+EBL Appraise and Search, Locate Object as spell), Ashardalon's Presence (as Fear spell)*, Ashardalon's Vigor (+EBLx2 Hit Points), Fiend's Heart (DR 10/ Cold Iron, Resistance to Fire 30) Halphax - Damage Reduction (DR 10/ Adamantine), Halphax’s Knowledge (+16 Profession (Siege Engineer) and Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) checks), Imprison (Touch attack, as Imprisonment spell, lasts for EBL rounds), Iron Wall (as Wall of Iron spell, lasts 1 minute)*, Secure Shelter (as Leomund’s Secure Shelter spell, within 60 ft.)* Orthos – Blindsight (Blindsight 30 ft.), Displacement (50% miss chance), Whirlwind Breath (30 ft. Cone, 1d6 damage per EBL, Reflex save vs. half, Fortitude save or be knocked prone and moved 1d4x10 ft. away)*, Whispering Wind (as Spell) Abysm (Mind’s Eye WotC article) - Psionic Boon (21 Power Points), Overpower (Read Thoughts, Animal Affinity, Energy Missile, Psionic Levitate, Clairvoyant Sense, and Astral Construct powers) * Useable once every 5 rounds
#274 BloodDragon Mar 07, 2008 12:51:50	Damnit, where were you when I was making up my vestige Cards? Good work anyway!
#275 jameswilliamogle Mar 11, 2008 19:14:02	OK, here's something: Malphus's Bird's-Eye-Viewing + Brilliant Energy Bow: use the bird to scout the dungeon, shoot an arrow through the walls to hit the enemies. Simple as that. Now, that's a +4 weapon, 32k gp, which means you won't get it until you have multiple vestiges: combine with Leraje to hit two monsters at once, or (eventually) Marchosias to force Fort saves due to assasination (needs to be combined Sniper's Shot for effectiveness; check out the Lady of the Green PrC for that). Yes, I've said it before, I'll say it again: Binders ARE the best characters for World's Largest Dungeon!
#276 Omen_of_Peace Mar 14, 2008 6:35:37	Funny, I had never noticed/realized Brilliant Energy weapons could cross walls. Anyway, Brilliant Energy can't be applied to bows, only to arrows ; since this use is situational, it would probably be better to use the SC spells that make a weapon BE for a short while. Nice idea, jwm !
#277 jameswilliamogle Mar 14, 2008 7:38:36	I don't have an Ur-Priest build up yet, so thought I'd put one down. Binder 4 / Tenebrous Apostate 1 / Ur-Priest (Dead God Adaptation) 1 / Tenebrous Apostate +3 / Anima Mage (Divine Adaptation) 9 / KoSS 1 18 levels of Binding, 9th level divine spells, lots of free metamagics. I couldn't really decide if those last couple of Anima Mage abilities was worth it, but I'm not really losing that much. I also don't have a Sublime Chord build up... Here's a funky one... Bard 1 / Binder 4 / Trapsmith 3 / Anima Mage 2 / Sublime Chord 2 / Anima Mage +8 Requires Able Learner, Shape Soulmeld, and Open Least Chakra, but otherwise has L5 Trapsmith spells, L10 SC casting, L14 Binding. I'm looking for ideas for some Incarnum multi-class builds. Gestalt is easy; I'm looking for single-class.
#278 dreadheadsrock Apr 04, 2008 17:29:46	Edit: sorry did my math wrong thanks highbulp 101270 still a lot of freaking choices
#279 highbulp Apr 05, 2008 0:35:18	i don't know if somebody already posted this but i did some calculations for the amount of different combos you could have at LVL 20 and being able to bind 4 Vestiges. with 41 different vestiges we are looking at 2,825,761 different combinations if my math is right 41 choose 4 (ie, how many ways there are to pick 4 elements from a set of 41). nCr(41,4) = 41!/((41-4)!*4!) = 101270. So not quite as many as you were thinking (are you sure you didn't count binding the same vestige twice?)
#280 jameswilliamogle Apr 05, 2008 8:59:27	41 choose 4 (ie, how many ways there are to pick 4 elements from a set of 41). nCr(41,4) = 41!/((41-4)!*4!) = 101270. So not quite as many as you were thinking (are you sure you didn't count binding the same vestige twice?) Extremely simple to play at low level, ridiculously complex at high. Yup! Still, not as many combinations as with incarnum... but incarnum is at least intuitive.
#281 ppaladin123 Apr 05, 2008 11:15:08	Andras+Chupoclops+Eligor + the right feats = the binder is a better paladin than the paladin I should really play a paladin 1/ binder4/KotSS 5 (Andras)/ binder 10 with the heresy variant rule and awesome smite/leap attack/shock trooper. Sigh.
#282 jameswilliamogle Apr 05, 2008 14:09:40	Andras+Chupoclops+Eligor + the right feats = the binder is a better paladin than the paladin I should really play a paladin 1/ binder4/KotSS 5 (Andras)/ binder 10 with the heresy variant rule and awesome smite/leap attack/shock trooper. Sigh. Yup. from the front page: Heavy Cavalry 10, 15, 20 [Andras] + [Chupoclops] + [Eligor] + [Balam] + Shocktrooper + Imp. Buckler Defense: The ultimate in damage dealing potential. Pounce = full attack after charging; Lance = double damage after charging while mounted; Andras = free horsie, smite attack (which will be doubled on a charge w/ a lance), and Imp. Crit.; Eligor = +4 Str, natural armor, and a couple of great mounted feats, AND heavy armor prof; Balam = reroll 1 / 5 rounds, more AC, and 2d6 cold damage once per round; Shocktrooper = full 2 handed Power Attack damage to all the lance attacks, doubled, w/ no penalty to hit. Consider a BAB 16 character (KoSS 5 / Binder 15): 4 attacks per round, attack bonus of +20 w/o further Str or magic weapon mods, and 2d8 + 40 (smite) + 4 (str), + 64 (power attack, 2H, doubled due to lance) per smite hit (2d8 + 108 damage), -40 for the follow-up attacks, if the weapon has the valorous enchantment, thats 4d8 + 216 damage, (triple that on a crit), plus another 2d6 cold damage every round; AC could be a 45, w/o ring of deflection (+8 armor, +5 enhancement, +5 natural, +4 cover using the horse, +2 Dex, +1 shield, +5 enhancement, +5 insight), or 29 on a full-on Shocktrooper run. THAT'S what I think of when I think Fighter. Your mount will have issues in combat, however. Use Eurynome to get more powerful mounts as you level up (the attitude will remain friendly even if you don't have Eurynome bound after the first day: you've already met, so initial reaction isn't an issue anymore ).
#283 ghostpilot Apr 07, 2008 2:55:35	From the thread I got that the damage from Dahlver-Nar's Shield Self ability bypasses the enemy's DR when it's applied to them. However, if you have DR, is the damage split between you and the enemy calculated before or after the reduction from your own DR? I.e: I have a DR of /5 and I have Shield Self on a enemy, and I get hit for 13 damage. Is that 13 split (say 7 to me [2 after DR] and 6 to the enemy), or is it 8 (4 to me and the enemy)?
#284 Omen_of_Peace Apr 09, 2008 0:04:27	The latter, IIRC. Merry Christmas ! It looks really tasty.
#285 jandor1 Apr 09, 2008 0:31:54	at first glance it seems that Gaia is by far the best of the new set of vestiges ... darkvision at normal sight range AND 120 blindsight AND 60 foot tremorsense? yes please! the egyptian one has a sick party heal (positive energy burst or whatever). might be nice for the party cleric, so they don't have to sack XP on greater restorations anymore. (they probably weren't anyway, but hey, it also saves spell slots). quickened force cage/quickened wall of force is pretty sweet, on the bronze god one ... decent battlefield control, even at that level ... and you can bind Cthulhu. nice. oh, i'm sure this has been mentioned, but: bind vestige (naberius) + wanderers diplomacy on a halfling beguiler is pretty hilarious. points for style, very effective.
#286 Omen_of_Peace Apr 09, 2008 1:36:57	Blindsight is good ; tremorsense and darkvision not so much. Regeneration is her real selling point : it comes with a built-in immunity to one of the danage types bypassing it and you can grant it to allies too. Tkhaluuljin is underwhelming except for the sphere of annihilation. An artefact ! It can't even hurt you if you lose control.
#287 scruloose Apr 09, 2008 11:07:35	Blindsight is good ; tremorsense and darkvision not so much. Regeneration is her real selling point : it comes with a built-in immunity to one of the danage types bypassing it and you can grant it to allies too. Tkhaluuljin is underwhelming except for the sphere of annihilation. An artefact ! It can't even hurt you if you lose control. Blindsight is acceptable, but I would expect/desire True Sight as well based on the warlock's epic feats. The sphere of annihilation is either very useful or completely useless. The question is, where can you summon it and what are you fighting. If you can summon it on a target, it gets no chance of a save or spell resistance. It is automatically annihilated (unless it is a deity). There is no spell that directly negates this power, it is not a death effect. However, contingencies will easily allow a person to avoid it, and if it not summoned on a target, any person with a decent speed can probably avoid it by walking away. In addition, energy may be immune to its effects, allowing an force sphere or similar effect to protect the matter within. All in all, this is VERY nasty against monsters without spellcasting ability, and rather useless against anything with decent spell defenses or against numbers of creatures spread out a decent distance apart. Of course, if you can only summon it within 40' of you (its range of control) or worse yet summon it forth in your area, the sphere becomes virtually much less useful. Did anyone see anything regarding the Binding DC? I cannot seem to find what needs to be rolled to make a good bind (and using the prerequisite knowledge skills is vastly too low a DC).
#288 zopzop Apr 09, 2008 11:18:12	Tkhaluuljin is underwhelming except for the sphere of annihilation. An artefact ! It can't even hurt you if you lose control. The only downside is, you are only immune to your own Sphere.
#289 nephelim Apr 09, 2008 11:42:45	There is no Bind DC. You bind them, you get the influence. Period. Also, if you can only summon the Sphere where you are, it would make a nasty touch-attack, especially with you being immune to it. Your non-epic Vestiges can combine here to allow for the mobility and whatnot that you might need to get on top of your target with little fuss. Remember, these epic vestiges are in additiona to your non-epic vestiges... Another question-- can Antimagic turn off a feat?
#290 BloodDragon Apr 09, 2008 12:06:41	And here I was worried I woulnd't be able to update my List before 4E. Edit: Well that was mostly fast. Ironing out some errors still though, check out my sig. I'll be uploading a better version later.
#291 Omen_of_Peace Apr 09, 2008 12:09:55	I should've said I was mentioning it in part because of the cool factor. Unlike most other abilities, this can't be replicated by a spell at all. edit: if the feat grants a (Su) ability, then yes it can be turned off by an AMF. Psionic feats are that way IIRC.
#292 nephelim Apr 09, 2008 13:25:52	So AMF's spell death to even epic-scale binders? I would think that Epic vestiges would resist AMFs (and dispells) the same way that Epic magic does...
#293 jameswilliamogle Apr 09, 2008 13:37:27	So AMF's spell death to even epic-scale binders? I would think that Epic vestiges would resist AMFs (and dispells) the same way that Epic magic does... AMF's are emanations, so you just need something to block LoE to you. All the creatures you can summon are not magical, oddly enough: your Su ability that you lose in an AMF is just the ability to summon more. Same thing with Halphax's Iron Wall, too: summon it on one side of the AMF and you should be golden. AMFs aren't that bad, really (but still a pain, admittedly). There's also the Tenebrous Apostate / Chupoclops / Malphus trick where your bird targets the enemy and you attack in an earth glide style.
#294 Iry Apr 09, 2008 16:14:56	This is kind of a Sub-Par Combination, but is available at 8th level. Agares + Dahlver-Nar allows you to Shield Self your earth elemental which can glide through the earth beneath your feet all day long. In general, it's a great defense against surprise and you always start combat defended with no action expense.
#295 jameswilliamogle Apr 09, 2008 20:53:41	edit: double post
#296 jameswilliamogle Apr 09, 2008 20:57:22	This is kind of a Sub-Par Combination, but is available at 8th level. Agares + Dahlver-Nar allows you to Shield Self your earth elemental which can glide through the earth beneath your feet all day long. In general, it's a great defense against surprise and you always start combat defended with no action expense. I always start with it on the Cleric. They generally accept it, plus its a bit easier for them to heal themselves than to move then heal me. Does anyone know the answer to the order of stacking for the ability, though? I have DR 10/adamantine Enemy target of Shield Self has DR 5/cold iron and Energy Resistance 10/Fire I get hit with a adamantine falchion for 30 damage. How much do I take, how much does my enemy take? If it were cold iron, how much then? I get hit with a quickened flame strike for 30 damage. Again, how much do I take, how much does my enemy take?
#297 jandor1 Apr 09, 2008 21:32:28	I would say: Falchion: you take 10 damage, your companion takes 10 damage. Flame strike: you take 15 damage, your companion takes 15 damage. etc. reasoning: the share pain ability allows you to transfer some wounds YOU suffer to another person; keyword you. thus, you bear the brunt of the attack, and all of your resistances/DR/etc would apply; THEN you would split the resulting damage in half. Your friend isn't taking damage from the attack itself, but rather from the spell effect (or Su ability in this case); thus, their own resists/DR/etc don't come into play. Feel free to disagree, but that's how i'd rule it. also: +1 on the regeneration ability, i forgot about that.
#298 with-motion Apr 09, 2008 22:01:44	I'm currently in a huge conflict with my DM over Ricochet, granted by Leraje, and whether or not the ability applies to rays. My argument is that rays are weaponlike spells which can have many "ranged attack only" abilities applied to them, such as point blank shot (also granted by the vestige), so for all intents and purposes it should work. My DM argues two things. The first is that it's not "what was intended" by the vestige's flavor, which is extremely weak because the same vestige does grant point blank shot, which applies to rays. The second is that Rays are functionally different from other weaponlike spells, in that they simply hit the target and are absorbed, so they can't ricochet. Who would be in the right in this situation? Is there an exceptionally compelling argument against his POV, or am I stuck with his Rule 0?
#299 Omen_of_Peace Apr 10, 2008 0:09:53	Ray spells are (generally) cast as a standard action - they're unlikely to be compatible with the standard action from the Ricochet if it's not specified. From a balance PoV it's a more limited Split Ray, which is pretty powerful - your DM is not out-of-line IMHO, though allowing it would be fine too.
#300 Vael Apr 10, 2008 4:05:25	I'm with the DM. Making a ranged attack is different than casting a spell with a ranged attack. Does Many Shot or Rapid Shot apply to ray spells?
#301 scruloose Apr 10, 2008 12:05:38	There is no Bind DC. You bind them, you get the influence. Period. Also, if you can only summon the Sphere where you are, it would make a nasty touch-attack, especially with you being immune to it. Your non-epic Vestiges can combine here to allow for the mobility and whatnot that you might need to get on top of your target with little fuss. Is there any text that supports your claim? To me, this looks like an oversight, especially since a lack of DCs higher than 35 (from the non-epic vestiges) is going to make the new feat Epic Skilled Pact Making [Epic] less useful (useless by 30th probably by 25th). That is not to say that allowing no bind check is unreasonable, but taking penalties if you choose not to fight aberrations or being penalized for binding Acererak while binding the Desecrated Scion is a nasty drawback at epic. As for the touch attack, I can only partially agree. On the one hand, this is definitely a particularly nasty attack form (no save, no SR, only defense is a well worded contingency or immediate action protective field). On the other hand, getting close to a big epic level nasty in the first place is often suicidal. Given the option, range attacks will often be preferable (same with Acererak's Paralyzing Touch, Halphax's Imprison, and Haagenti's Confusing Touch). Add to this limited duration on the ability, its very low mobility after being summoned (or a wait period of 5 rounds after you dismiss the first one), and its low flexibility in use, and you have a whole lot of mitigating factors to the power that makes it substantially weaker. For a 27th level epic power, I would have wanted it to either 1) be usable at will against objects, 2) have a massively augmented speed, 3) be capable of spitting things back out, 4) have the ability to destroy all forms of energy as well as matter, 5) be summonable/controllable as a swift action. As a binder special, however, since this duplicates an artifact, it can be argued that the sphere works in anti-magic (per the spell artifacts are immune). As some other notes regarding the epics: Since regeneration works as fast-healing if you gain immunity to all things that bypass the regeneration (per the sage I believe, I will let someone else pull up the reason), gaining immunity to both acid and fire weakened Gaia's regeneration. However, Ashardalon or Zuriel + all pact augmentations into Energy Resistance can grant a large resistance to the energy type the character is still vulnerable to. Using Buer's healing ability or the Desecrated Scion's Burst of Life on someone that has regeneration and nonlethal damage can as much as double the healing. Consequently, sharing regeneration might be especially useful. The Desecrated Scion's Scion of War ability is especially powerful in combination with a Marshall Aura (through a cohort, 1 level dip, or allied PC). They stack. At epic levels, grapple/trip/bull rush etc may suddenly be a viable PC trick even against the massively strong epic monsters with this ability. This might make Zagan more desirable for grapples, Aym for Sunder, or any Binder build that utilizes trips, disarms, and bull rushes. Gais's Earth Fury may be desirable for characters that bind Andromalius or Malphas for precision damage. Note that this precision damage works with Otiax's Air Blast even if power attack may not. Gaia's Earth Sense is one of a very few ways (most held by Binders) to see ANY distance in darkness. Most darkvision has a range limitation. Earth's Voice is wicked. Anything with a spoken language, any plant, or any animal that can hear you must make a save or be friendly to you. This works in much the same way as Eurynome's animal friend ability, and can grant you the tricks in the OP to multiple creatures. Beware, however, nothing says you can turn this ability off, and per the binder power rules, anyone that is effected by the power will feel a "hostile force or tingle" that might make their attitude more hostile to you if they make the save and suspect you are the cause. Tkhaluuljin's Flight of the Alien grants the wingover feat even though the feat has no effect on someone with perfect maneuverability. It looks like an assumption is that alternative flight might be used. Flight of the Alien+Otiax's Air Blast makes it even harder for an opponent to respond to a flyby attack. Tkhaluuljin's Mind Blast does not appear to be mind-affecting. This makes it substantially more powerful. Zuriel's Bronze Body amounts to +4 to hit for most builds (assuming use of KoSS). If the character has magic items granting bonuses to the appropriate stats, this is a very weak ability. Zuriel's Forceful Speed of Thought, on the other hand, may be interesting. While you can duplicate spells, this is a supernatural power. I am not sure, therefore, whether spell resistance applies. If it does not, it becomes more powerful. Zuriel's Pact Fortification can enhance use of Otiax's Air Blast (boost damage), any Melee Attack (boost to hit), or Regeneration (Boost ER). Ultimate Sacrifice may be able to be used with Dahlver-Nar's Shield Self ability. After all, Ultimate Sacrifice is an effect that just did damage to you.
#302 Omen_of_Peace Apr 10, 2008 13:17:21	You keep regeneration even when immune to acid & fire. It becomes Fast Healing if you lose your Con score (typically if you tried to become undead to not be subject to nonlethal damage).
#303 castlemike Apr 11, 2008 20:41:55	Kobold Sorcerer - 1 / Binder - 2 / Anima Mage - 10 / X-1 / ACM - 1+ / 1 Precocious Apprentice (2) Flaw to take Improved Binding feat and qualify for Anima Mage - 10 3 Extend Spell 6 Persistant Spell 9, 12, 15, 18 more or less free: Arcane Disciple Luck Domain for general utility tool box No Experience High Arcana Miracles 2/ Day and duplicating things like Psychic Reformation to change out known spells. Take the Kobold Ritual for earlier spell progression. You can suppress your vestiges which can be a issue in many games. You get CL 19, spells known as a 19th level sorcerer, can bind up to L6 vestiges, and can persist up to 3 spells per day. Human or +0 LA Planetouched Beguiler - 1 / Binder - 2 / Anima Mage - 10 / X - 6 / ACM - 1+ You get CL 18, spells known as a 18th level Beguiler, can bind up to L6 vestiges, and can persist up to 3 spells per day Arcane Disciple Luck Domain for general utility tool box No Experience High Arcana Miracles 2/ Day a Blood line feat or another Arcane Disciple feat. In a low level leveling up game using Flaws (2) and the Precocious Apprentice feat trick works with a non good Human PC. The PC could enter the Anima Mage PRC at second level with a Variant Spellcaster -1. It would take 4 feats: Precocious Apprentice feat with the Bind Vestige feat, the Bind Vestige, Improved feat and a meta magic feat of choice along with choosing Intimidate and Knowledge (Planes) for class skills. It's a little gray the PC isn't actually a "Binder" since he hasn't taken levels in the Binder base class so does the AM PRC advance the Bind Vestige, Improved BL - 5 up to BL - 15 limited to a single power from it or does it it get the best BL - 15 with Binder - 10 or would it disqualifiy the PC from the PRC or convert the two feats to the Improved Binding feat to maintain qualification for the PRC just entered? Probably best to go Variant Spellcaster -1 with the Precocious Apprentice feat trick at first level and Binder - 1 at second level with a flaw for Improved Binding to qualify for Anima Mage at third level. Curious how it would work at at L11 with the Variant Spellcaster -1, Anima Mage -10. The PC would be a Spellcaster -11 and Binder -10 capable of two vestige soul binding up to L5 vestiges (L6 vestiges with the Improved Binding feat) and three pact augmentations with all the Anima Mage PRC specials of Exploit Vestige, Vestige Metamagic 3/day, Vestige Awareness and Vestige Casting. Lots of options in game after hitting level 5. Ur Priest -2 could be interesting at levels 6 and 7 with something like MT - 8 for level 9 divine spell casting starting at L14 or 15 (Taking Binder -1) from Ur Priest with arcane spellcasting equal to PC Level - 2 or 3 (Binder -1) from the Variant Spellcaster with some Binder options leveling. Erudite could be interesting depending on if Persistent Spell feat can be acquired if using the Spells to Power variant.
#304 maica22010 Apr 11, 2008 23:00:15	do you have a list or link to the binding dc's for the newer vestiges here?
#305 castlemike Apr 13, 2008 18:07:21	Most of the web article Vestiges have a link on page one.
#306 Iry Apr 14, 2008 6:07:07	While scrounging around in the Gnome Powersuit thread, I stumbled upon a surprising and hilarious combination... Tenebrous Vestige(ToM) + Water Devotion(CoC) = Unlimited Water Elementals, Character Level 1-5 = Small, 6-10 = Medium, 11-15 = Large, 16-20 = Huge. Water Elemental is certainly the least useful of the elemental choices in most campaign settings, but any seafaring setting makes it quite a choice to consider. Water Devotion actually represents an hilarious improvement for Binders, who can effectively have 2 Water Elementals out constantly. Theoretically speaking, if you allow the popular Paizo vestige Green Lady then you have one of the strongest 1st level Characters in the game.
#307 Iry Apr 14, 2008 6:27:37	On a similar tangent... Aym + Tenebrous + Maul of the Titans + Strength Devotion + Combat Brute = A whole lot of broken things, without losing your actual attack against the foe. Tenebrous + Healing Devotion = Slower than Tenebrous + Sacred Healing, but less demanding requisites. Tenebrous + Good Devotion/Evil Devotion = Damage Reduction for the whole party! Tenebrous + Earth Devotion = Very weird, but great if you have the time and inclination to plan tactical battles. Tenebrous + Destruction Domain = At least 1 contribution per encounter. Sometimes two!
#308 asparagas Apr 14, 2008 11:22:47	Is there any text that supports your claim? To me, this looks like an oversight, especially since a lack of DCs higher than 35 (from the non-epic vestiges) is going to make the new feat Epic Skilled Pact Making [Epic] less useful (useless by 30th probably by 25th). There is on sentence that supports 'oversight': "Epic vestige DCs are regulated by EBL in the same manner as nonepic vestiges."
#309 Omen_of_Peace Apr 14, 2008 17:52:41	@iry: I believe this came up before, but you're misunderstanding Domain feats. You have to put aside a certain number of Turn attempts when you take the feat, and you cannot change it afterwards. See CC p52. Tenebrous doesn't help with that.
#310 nephelim Apr 15, 2008 7:28:41	There is on sentence that supports 'oversight': "Epic vestige DCs are regulated by EBL in the same manner as nonepic vestiges." What do you mean by "oversight?" I think that all that sentence implies is that the save DCs for Binder abilities in Epic levels continues to progress, scaling up at 10 + 1/2 EBL + CHA. But as far as having text to support my claim, you are asking me to prove a negative, which can not be done. My perspective is that it makes sense, thematicaly, that the will of a mere mortal, even on an Epic scale, is no match for the intensity of personna in Epic-grade vestiges. The lack of Binding DC's seems to be altogether too complete to be coincidental, especially with the central role that Binding DCs play with non-epic Vestiges. There seems to be no mention of a contest of wills when binding Epic vestiges whatsoever. It is something akin to the Mitigating Factors used in Epic Spells, I would argue (and thus, by extension, receive the sort of resistance to AMFs and MDJs that epic spells get).
#311 jameswilliamogle Apr 15, 2008 7:40:58	Not that there necessarily is a correlation, but the Epic Binder thread on the Epic boards also didn't have any bind DCs. It explicitly stated that you automatically were "under the influence", so-to-speak. The biggest problem I see with that is that you can't expel it early (which is not such a big deal, really).
#312 Iry Apr 15, 2008 11:09:36	@Iry: I believe this came up before, but you're misunderstanding Domain feats. You have to put aside a certain number of Turn attempts when you take the feat, and you cannot change it afterwards. See CC p52. Tenebrous doesn't help with that. I'm not misunderstanding the feats. They should work fine with Tenebrous. Here is just some of my evidence: Domain Spontaneity - CDpg 80 - Expend a spell slot, expend a turning attempt. Retrieve Spell - CCpg 62 - Expend turn or rebuke attempts. Spritual Counter - CCpg 62 - Expend one or more turn or rebuke attempts. This is a list of three divine feats, one of which PREDATES the CC, and two of which are actually located inside the CC. They all use the term expend. There are more examples than the above, and I will supply them upon request. There is no reference to the term Spend or Expend in the PHB 3.5 Glossary. Www.dictionary.com and www.webster.com list Spend and Expend as interchangeable definitions for each other in certain circumstances. Page 52 of the CC never mentions the term Expend. Now, you might be thinking that it is unusual to have Domain Feat turn/rebuke references located in the 'Special' text, but let me present further evidence... The SRD, under Feat Description, states 'Special - Additional facts about the feat that may be helpful when you decide whether to acquire the feat.' Obviously the special text block has no mechanical precedent beyond offering additional information about the feat. It's clear that Page 52 of CC is an anomaly. A unique occurrence that offers you the opportunity to permanently sacrifice turn attempts in exchange for Domain Feat abilities. This ability is in addition to the standard methods of expending Turn/Rebuke attempts to gain a daily use of the Domain Feat. You might ask how that could possibly be better than simply saving your Turn/Rebuke attempts and using them to power the feat at-will. I can offer only the following two ideas... A) The uses gained from sacrificing Turn/Rebuke attempts are permanent, and thusly immune to being reduced by charisma ability drain/damage. B) It wouldn't be the first time the designers simply made a sub-par ability. On an amusing tangent, as written on Pg 52 of CC it is potentially open to Feat Retraining abuse. Retrain ALL your feats except the highest feat as your chosen Domain Feat and replace them with Extra Turning. Feed them into your Domain Feat then train them back into something useful. Though, practically no DM should be foolish enough to allow any of this tangent to fly in a real game.
#313 asparagas Apr 15, 2008 14:02:56	What do you mean by "oversight?" I think that all that sentence implies is that the save DCs for Binder abilities in Epic levels continues to progress, scaling up at 10 + 1/2 EBL + CHA. I fear that you are correct. My interpretation smells of wishfull thinking. But as far as having text to support my claim, you are asking me to prove a negative, which can not be done. It is not impossible (and often quiet simple) to prove a negative. (Hint: reverse conclusion) My perspective is that it makes sense, thematicaly, that the will of a mere mortal, even on an Epic scale, is no match for the intensity of personna in Epic-grade vestiges. Maayyybe.... But story and gaming wise it is very constrictive: e.g. I can't bind Amun-her Khepeshef ever if my group includes a mage with death spells. And Gaia is more restrictive than every paladin code. Binding should be easy power, not impossible to use power. The lack of Binding DC's seems to be altogether too complete to be coincidental, especially with the central role that Binding DCs play with non-epic Vestiges. There seems to be no mention of a contest of wills when binding Epic vestiges whatsoever. Except "The nature of epic vestiges is similar to that of nonepic vestiges, but they are grander, more tragic, and more terrifying." But I must confess, that this is my final straw... It is something akin to the Mitigating Factors used in Epic Spells, I would argue (and thus, by extension, receive the sort of resistance to AMFs and MDJs that epic spells get). But I can choose my mitigation factors. Perhaps Eytan Bernstein will take mercy and clarify this point once and for all.
#314 jameswilliamogle Apr 15, 2008 14:44:45	lots of great info The problem is on p52 of CChampion. If you have the ability to turn or rebuke undead, you can gain additional daily uses of a domain feat's benefit by permanently sacrificing daily uses of that ability. As worded, Tenebrous doesn't give you daily uses, stupidly enough... edit: I see you know about it. What was the author's intent? Who knows...
#315 nephelim Apr 15, 2008 15:57:39	It is not impossible (and often quiet simple) to prove a negative. (Hint: reverse conclusion) I assume that you are referring to something akin to Modus Tollens or a proof by contradiction or Absurdity? You can make strong arguements that way by using negation of a statement to show it to be logically impossible. That is not, however, the same thing as proving a negative. That is proving a positive by negation. But perhaps I misspoke - What I was trying to express, however inarticualtely, was that a Negative Proof ("X is true because there is no proof that X is false." - to quote Wikipedia) is a logical fallacy. That is, stating that "There are supposed to be Binding DC's because there is nothing which says that there are not supposed to be" is not a valid argument. ... which, of course, is utterly irrelevant and entirely off-topic!
#316 Slad_Chaos Apr 15, 2008 16:13:39	Are there surnatural abilities against starvation, thirst, or suffocation, the need for the sleep, the oldness ?
#317 nephelim Apr 15, 2008 18:55:16	Zyceryl (I might not ahve the spelling right) applies the Psudonatural template to you while she's bound, making you an Outsider... Though, I don't have the text in front of me, so it might specify that you get the Native subtype, which would not help.
#318 Omen_of_Peace Apr 15, 2008 21:40:39	@Iry: what jwm said. How are divine feats relevant when we're talking about domain feats ? They follow a new mechanic, introduced in CC and outlined p52. You do have some bad rules interactions with Charisma damage/drain, but it doesn't change the fact that Tenebrous does not enable you to do what you think.
#319 asparagas Apr 16, 2008 0:38:00	But perhaps I misspoke - What I was trying to express, however inarticualtely, was that a Negative Proof ("X is true because there is no proof that X is false." - to quote Wikipedia) is a logical fallacy. On this we couldn't agree more. (And I misread, I was not aware that "proof of a negative" was a fixed phrase in english.) ... which, of course, is utterly irrelevant and entirely off-topic! But very well spoken! Are there surnatural abilities against starvation, thirst, or suffocation, the need for the sleep, the oldness ? Ex? -> Children of the Night
#320 Iry Apr 16, 2008 1:31:55	@Iry: what jwm said. How are divine feats relevant when we're talking about domain feats ? They follow a new mechanic, introduced in CC and outlined p52. You do have some bad rules interactions with Charisma damage/drain, but it doesn't change the fact that Tenebrous does not enable you to do what you think. The presumption is that 'Special:' may be used to reference Divine Feats. After all, given the option of referencing an obscure sentence that doesn't deserve the distinction of it's own paragraph and lacks similar terminology beyond the word "daily'... and referencing a familiar and popular mechanic with nearly identical terminology used not only in previous books but the divine feats in the very same book... then you should reference the one with nearly identical. There is far more evidence supporting the latter than the former. In fact, JWM brings up the most valid argument I've seen. The word 'Daily'. In the strictest sense RAW seems to support clerics activating Domain Feats at will without permanent loss of turning attempts (leaving pg52 a sickly vestige of text), while effectively denying Tenebrous the ability to utilize them. Admitting that, I think an argument could be founded upon the concept that the special abilities are not strictly called "Daily Turn/Rebuke Undead" and are instead called just "Turn/Rebuke Undead" in both the case of the cleric and Tenebrous. Since a cleric effectively turns a number of times per day equal to '3+X, where X is equal to charisma modifier.' and Tenebrous effectively turns a number of times per day equal to 'X, where X is equal to <=2057'.
#321 Omen_of_Peace Apr 16, 2008 2:28:00	The presumption is that 'Special:' may be used to reference Divine Feats. After all, given the option of referencing an obscure sentence that doesn't deserve the distinction of it's own paragraph and lacks similar terminology beyond the word "daily'... and referencing a familiar and popular mechanic with nearly identical terminology used not only in previous books but the divine feats in the very same book... then you should reference the one with nearly identical. There is far more evidence supporting the latter than the former. In fact, JWM brings up the most valid argument I've seen. The word 'Daily'. In the strictest sense RAW seems to support clerics activating Domain Feats at will without permanent loss of turning attempts (leaving pg52 a sickly vestige of text), while effectively denying Tenebrous the ability to utilize them. Admitting that, I think an argument could be founded upon the concept that the special abilities are not strictly called "Daily Turn/Rebuke Undead" and are instead called just "Turn/Rebuke Undead" in both the case of the cleric and Tenebrous. Since a cleric effectively turns a number of times per day equal to '3+X, where X is equal to charisma modifier.' and Tenebrous effectively turns a number of times per day equal to 'X, where X is equal to <=2057'. I wonder if we're reading the same book. "Domain feats are a new category of feats..." (p.52) Right: let's ignore the text defining this new mechanic, and use the text for another mechanic because it suits us. "Permanently sacrificing daily uses" : how do you not lose turn attempts ? So it's not RAW ("strictest sense RAW" is not about dropping half of the RAW), it's not RAI, but let's use it anyway ? Put another way: if the generic rules governing a category of feats are not repeated in the text of each feat, do you ignore them ? The divine feat rules specify you can only use 1 divine feat per round: is that RAW or not ? It's not in the text of Divine Metamagic, and you can normally use feats as much as you want...
#322 jameswilliamogle Apr 16, 2008 7:39:41	I wonder if we're reading the same book. "Domain feats are a new category of feats..." (p.52) Right: let's ignore the text defining this new mechanic, and use the text for another mechanic because it suits us. "Permanently sacrificing daily uses" : how do you not lose turn attempts ? So it's not RAW ("strictest sense RAW" is not about dropping half of the RAW), it's not RAI, but let's use it anyway ? Put another way: if the generic rules governing a category of feats are not repeated in the text of each feat, do you ignore them ? The divine feat rules specify you can only use 1 divine feat per round: is that RAW or not ? It's not in the text of Divine Metamagic, and you can normally use feats as much as you want... You bring up the best counter-point to your argument. The generic text says "permanent", the specific text just says "expend". Iry would say that the text "expend" does not mean permanent sacrifice. In general, we follow the specific example instead of the generic, so if Iry is right about the dnd "expend" definition, then it wouldn't be permanent sacrifice. For the record, I don't think the "expend" clause in the feat description and the "permanently sacrifices" clause under the domain feat description actually counter each other. I think the feat description is a poorly worded reference to the generic text. Here's another (stupid) point: if Iry is correct about the "expend" description, this would mean there are two methods to get additional uses. permanently sacrifice 3 daily uses of turning expend 3 uses of turning for the day Now, nobody would use the former, of course, but why would they put that in there? I think its a clear case of bad editing, as we aren't really sure how its supposed to work.
#323 Iry Apr 16, 2008 11:23:41	For the record, I don't think the "expend" clause in the feat description and the "permanently sacrifices" clause under the domain feat description actually counter each other. I think the feat description is a poorly worded reference to the generic text. Here's another (stupid) point: if Iry is correct about the "expend" description, this would mean there are two methods to get additional uses. permanently sacrifice 3 daily uses of turning expend 3 uses of turning for the day Now, nobody would use the former, of course, but why would they put that in there? I think its a clear case of bad editing, as we aren't really sure how its supposed to work. That's exactly the conclusion I came to. As written, the text of 52 and the specific text of the feats do not contradict each other and indeed exist separately from each other. Given the evidence to support it fitting the terminology of Divine feats much closer, it means that the only functional use of pg 52 is choosing to permanently sacrifice your turn attempts so you do not lose daily uses due to charisma damage (a silly and rare situation, but you might never use your turning attempts for anything else). Still, as admitted it functionally cuts out Tenebrous from the wording unless we pursue somewhat archaic interpretations, and that takes it into the realm of DM Decision which is not in the general interest of this board.
#324 Omen_of_Peace Apr 16, 2008 13:21:02	Sure, using either 'expand' or 'sacrifice' everywhere would have been better - one should still refer to the "Domain feats" text before the text of other feats, since the 'sacrificing turn attempts for more uses" is not defined there but it is defined in the body of the feats. Because 'expend' is not defined anywhere, and can very well be permanent (it it the same as "to spend" as you said), it does refer to 'sacrifice'. At least you seem to mostly agree with me - I suggest you go to Theoretical Optimization if you want to play with the 2000+ "daily" uses of Tenebrous.
#325 Iry Apr 16, 2008 19:19:34	Sure, using either 'expand' or 'sacrifice' everywhere would have been better - one should still refer to the "Domain feats" text before the text of other feats, since the 'sacrificing turn attempts for more uses" is not defined there but it is defined in the body of the feats. Because 'expend' is not defined anywhere, and can very well be permanent (it it the same as "to spend" as you said), it does refer to 'sacrifice'. At least you seem to mostly agree with me - I suggest you go to Theoretical Optimization if you want to play with the 2000+ "daily" uses of Tenebrous. We agree only on the Tenebrous interpretation, or more accurately JWM's Tenebrous interpretation. I, however, refer to the "Domain Feats" text before the text of other feats and see a nifty line about the permanent sacrifice of Turn Attempts. I then refer to the specific text of the actual feats which state the text from Divine Feats. I see nothing about sacrifice, permanence, or anything similar. Instead, I see the mechanic for Divine Feats with the added term "Daily Use", under the category "Special". We know that specific text trumps general text, and we know several instances of Divine Feats that utilize this exact terminology minus the term "Daily Use". Bad editing? Likely. But, it's simply a matter of RAW. The option the feats present you are neither permanent nor a sacrifice. Have at it, my dear daily Turn/Rebukers!
#326 Omen_of_Peace Apr 17, 2008 0:04:10	Ok, I give up. After all, we don't even view RAW in the same way.
#327 asparagas Apr 17, 2008 0:29:45	Epic Vestiges Binding DCs: Good news (at least for me) I just got an email from Eytan Bernstein: "It appears to have been an oversight. I'm working on getting the numbers together, then I'll post them and send an e-mail to everyone who asked." ----- Original Message ----- Dear mister Bernstein, there are no DCs for binding the epic vestiges in your article "Epic Binders". Is this a oversight or deliberateness? Kind regards" @Nephelim: Now I have a sentence to prove "oversight". ;)
#328 Iry Apr 17, 2008 3:21:22	On a completely unrelated note, I asked Customer Service something that might seem terribly obvious to some but I felt necessary to get exact information upon... 04/16/2008 07:37 AM Caelic'sLoveChild, Thank you for contacting us. You would have to a a full five rounds before using it again. In your example, if you use the ability on round 1 you would not be able to use it again until round 7. I hope this helps! Please let me know if you need anymore help! Marc Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada) 425-204-8069 (From all other countries) Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST 04/15/2008 11:41 PM On Page 20 of the Tome of Magic we see one example of a vestige ability that states it may not be used again for 5 rounds. The Binder class is rife with abilities that share this sentence. Just how long are they actually asking you to wait? For example: If you use the ability on Round 1 can you then use it again on Round 6 (five rounds after Round 1), or do you instead use it on Round 7 (five rounds without having used the ability)? ******************** Page Number: 20 Book Name: Tome of Magic
#329 straw_man Apr 17, 2008 5:27:09	Could someone tell me if there's a PrC for the Green Lady, something like Initiate of the G.L.. I looked on the Paizo page and found the vestige but not the PrC. Thanks.
#330 jameswilliamogle Apr 17, 2008 7:27:45	Could someone tell me if there's a PrC for the Green Lady, something like Initiate of the G.L.. I looked on the Paizo page and found the vestige but not the PrC. Thanks. Its in that same thread; you must've just overlooked it. It has stats for a particular character from AoW, the vestige, and the PrC.
#331 Iry Apr 17, 2008 11:23:52	Does anybody else have a problem with the Green Lady and her matching Prestige Class being strictly superior to Tenebrous and his matching Prestige Class? I'm not one to really care, since the the Binder is no CoDzilla, but it did strike me as awfully blatant.
#332 jameswilliamogle Apr 17, 2008 11:33:57	Does anybody else have a problem with the Green Lady and her matching Prestige Class being strictly superior to Tenebrous and his matching Prestige Class? I'm not one to really care, since the the Binder is no CoDzilla, but it did strike me as awfully blatant. I don't think its superior. The 4th level Tenebrous Apostate ability is wicked good. Chupoclops adds ghost touch to every weapon you use; add in Incorporealness on a Cha-based character, and, well, you get the point. Go Ethereal right before the Incorporealness runs out, and repeat. Later, add Malphus for Bird's Eye Viewing, and Haures for PK, and you can then stay in walls, while your bird goes around targeting stuff for you while you just PK away.
#333 Iry Apr 17, 2008 22:53:04	I don't think its superior. The 4th level Tenebrous Apostate ability is wicked good. Chupoclops adds ghost touch to every weapon you use; add in Incorporealness on a Cha-based character, and, well, you get the point. Go Ethereal right before the Incorporealness runs out, and repeat. Later, add Malphus for Bird's Eye Viewing, and Haures for PK, and you can then stay in walls, while your bird goes around targeting stuff for you while you just PK away. Apostles of the Green Lady receives the exact same ability. Ghostly Body (Su): Beginning at 4th level, you can transform yourself into a ghostly form once per day. This ability makes you incorporeal for a number of rounds equal to twice your apostle of the Green Lady level or until you return to physical form as a swift action.
#334 nephelim Apr 18, 2008 7:17:00	I don't have an Ur-Priest build up yet, so thought I'd put one down. Binder 4 / Tenebrous Apostate 1 / Ur-Priest (Dead God Adaptation) 1 / Tenebrous Apostate +3 / Anima Mage (Divine Adaptation) 9 / KoSS 1 18 levels of Binding, 9th level divine spells, lots of free metamagics. I couldn't really decide if those last couple of Anima Mage abilities was worth it, but I'm not really losing that much. How do you qualify for Apostate with only 4 levels of Binder when Apostsate requires 8 ranks in a Knowledge skill and the ability to bind Tenebrous, who you can't get, even with Improved Binding, until level 5? Also, the Ur-priest is only a 10 level class. You're already at its 4th level of casting before you start on the Anima Mage path... what happens once you pass Anima Mage 6, in terms of Spells per Day fro the Ur-Priest?
#335 jameswilliamogle Apr 18, 2008 8:27:11	@ Iry: the once/day use is what bothers me about it. I want to stay incorporeal 24/7. @ Nephalim: its a mistake; I originally had bloodlines in there, which should've made up the difference. My bad!
#336 nephelim Apr 18, 2008 9:55:58	Would this ur-priest build still be worth it wihtout Bloodlines, do you think?
#337 jameswilliamogle Apr 18, 2008 10:18:26	Would this ur-priest build still be worth it wihtout Bloodlines, do you think? Lessee... v. 1.0 Binder 5 / Tenebrous Apostate 1 / Ur-Priest (Dead God Adaptation) 1 / Tenebrous Apostate +4 / Anima Mage (Divine Adaptation) 9 Depends on what you want to do, I guess. This gets 9th level spells and 18 EBL, which is very solid. The build has 4 non-levels of divine casting advancement, though. It would be really easy to drop the last level of Tenebrous Apostate and add a class with its own spellcasting advancement. We could drop 3 levels of Binder for anything else, so long as we bumped up Anima Mage / Ur-Priest progression (I don't think its worth it in normal play). Its pretty good, I guess, with few dead levels (all puns intended). I don't like the lost progression, but the extra 2 free metamagics could be worth it. Alternatively, we could dump 4 levels of Anima Mage for 4 levels of Knight of the Sacred Seal. Those AC bonuses make a big difference, and you are bound to Tenebrous constantly, anyways. That last level of KoSS is really solid. Also, the last level of Tenebrous Apostate isn't necessary. Loses 1 BAB for a 1/day ability; not really that exciting of an ability, either. The build as is would be among the kings of necromancers. All that free undead healing is wicked. ************** I'm not sure if a DM would allow the divine adaptation of Anima Mage and the regular arcane version, but a single level of Trapsmith and advancement for 4 levels would be kind of nice. Of course, prereqs are an issue, then, but in theory it has one of the best spell lists for what it does. Those dropped 3 levels of Binder could become Trapfinding Ranger instead... v 1.1 Trapfinding Ranger 2 / Binder 3 / Ur-Priest 1 / Anima Mage (Divine) 6 / Tenebrous Apostate 4 / Trapsmith 1 / Anima Mage (Arcane) +3 BAB doesn't look so hot, but 9th level divine spells, 3rd level trapsmith spells, 15th level binding. Kind of sexy, but I don't think any spell other than Haste is going to get used normally, and even then, not so sure... Divine Crusader, maybe, for the non-advancement? Requires the Dead God adaptation, which Tenebrous is already. ***************** w/ Bloodlines... v 1.3 Binder 2 / Bloodline 3 / Ur-Priest 1 / Anima Mage 9 / Tenebrous Apostate 5 is very simple and easy. That's EBL 27 and 9th level divine spells. ***************** If I gestalted in a high level campaign, I'd consider putting full Ur-Priest progression on one side. All the theft abilities seems to combine very flavorfully w/ Soulbinding. v 1.4 (gestalt) Something like: Binder 11 / Scion of Dantalion 4 / KoSS 5 // Paladin of Tyranny 3 / Monk 2 / Ur-Priest 10 / Warblade 5 EBL 24. Not quite as abusive as it could be, but still very nice. Mix up all the levels to be legal at all times w/ maximum benefit; I think that could net pretty decent BAB and saves. Also, some pretty decent high-level maneuvers, all those theft abilities, Auras, 9th level divine spells... yeah, pretty sexy... edits: made lots of changes, and was thinking things through a bit...
#338 mplindustries Apr 18, 2008 10:36:19	I know this is about something a few posts ago, but I felt it was important anyway. First, let me say that I do not like what I am about to say. I would never use the RAW here. I have houseruled it in the past, and would again. Tenebrous does not let you use divine or domain feats. Tenebrous does not actually give you turn or rebuke attempts. You only get the ability to turn or rebuke undead, not the attempts. You can't expend anything. You don't get 1 attempt every 5 rounds, you just get to turn/rebuke every 5 rounds. It is a significant difference especially when it relates to turning-powered feats. As an alternative reading, that I like even less, the wording "You can turn or rebuke undead as a cleric of your effective binder level," could be read in such a way as you still only get 3 + Cha uses per day, you just can only use them every 5 rounds. I hate both of those, but they seem the RAWest. As I said, I've ruled differently before and I would again. Binder is fun, and as someone said earlier, there is no Bindzilla.
#339 jameswilliamogle Apr 18, 2008 10:43:19	I know this is about something a few posts ago, but I felt it was important anyway. First, let me say that I do not like what I am about to say. I would never use the RAW here. I have houseruled it in the past, and would again. Tenebrous does not let you use divine or domain feats. Tenebrous does not actually give you turn or rebuke attempts. You only get the ability to turn or rebuke undead, not the attempts. You can't expend anything. You don't get 1 attempt every 5 rounds, you just get to turn/rebuke every 5 rounds. It is a significant difference especially when it relates to turning-powered feats. As an alternative reading, that I like even less, the wording "You can turn or rebuke undead as a cleric of your effective binder level," could be read in such a way as you still only get 3 + Cha uses per day, you just can only use them every 5 rounds. I hate both of those, but they seem the RAWest. As I said, I've ruled differently before and I would again. Binder is fun, and as someone said earlier, there is no Bindzilla. Please, the point has been made several times already. Lets not argue about it anymore.
#340 Iry Apr 18, 2008 16:22:50	@ Iry: the once/day use is what bothers me about it. I want to stay incorporeal 24/7. If you're speaking about the Tenebrous Apostate ability, CustomerService has ruled that the line saying you cannot use the ability again until 5 rounds has passed was unnecessary and should be ignored since you can only use it once per day. Tenebrous does not let you use divine or domain feats. The fact that Tenebrous cannot use Domain Feats, as I have been convinced of, does not change the fact that Tenebrous can certainly power Divine Feats. There is some argument that Tenebrous does not allow you to actually qualify to take those feats, but this is the same argument that having a Str of 10 and taking Gauntlets of Ogre Power +4 does not allow you to take Power Attack. In either case, if you recieve Turn/Rebuke Undead from another source such as a single level of Cleric you qualify to take the Divine Feats in the normal fashion and can subsequently power the Divine Feats with Tenebrous.
#341 EytanBernstein Apr 18, 2008 21:22:10	I fear that you are correct. My interpretation smells of wishfull thinking. It is not impossible (and often quiet simple) to prove a negative. (Hint: reverse conclusion) Maayyybe.... But story and gaming wise it is very constrictive: e.g. I can't bind Amun-her Khepeshef ever if my group includes a mage with death spells. And Gaia is more restrictive than every paladin code. Binding should be easy power, not impossible to use power. Except "The nature of epic vestiges is similar to that of nonepic vestiges, but they are grander, more tragic, and more terrifying." But I must confess, that this is my final straw... But I can choose my mitigation factors. Perhaps Eytan Bernstein will take mercy and clarify this point once and for all. It's been about a year since I looked at the binder rules (and about 6 months since I've looked at any 3.5 rules), but I went back and took it look. It seems that the DCs were left out of the article (problem an oversight on my part). But I do have them: Gaia 39 Zuriel 43 Amun-her Khepeshef 47 Tkhaluuljin 49
#342 mplindustries Apr 19, 2008 2:07:48	The fact that Tenebrous cannot use Domain Feats, as I have been convinced of, does not change the fact that Tenebrous can certainly power Divine Feats. There is some argument that Tenebrous does not allow you to actually qualify to take those feats, but this is the same argument that having a Str of 10 and taking Gauntlets of Ogre Power +4 does not allow you to take Power Attack. I'm not really concerned at all about the requirements, though I guess I wasn't clear. I meant that Tenebrous could not be used to power Divine Feats or get extra uses of Domain feats. This is not because of the permanent sacrifice thing, but because of the fact that Tenebrous does not actually give you turn/rebuke attempts. Tenebrous lets you turn/rebuke; it does not give you turn/rebuke attempts. Thus, you have nothing to expend to use a Divine feat with. If divine feats, instead of requiring an expenditure of attempts, said, "whenever you use turn/rebuke undead, you can instead create X effect" or something along those lines, or if Tenebrous, instead of just giving you the ability to turn/rebuke, said "You gain one turn/rebuke attempt and it regenerates every 5 rounds" or something along those lines, then and only then could Tenebrous be used to power those feats. Please, the point has been made several times already. Lets not argue about it anymore. I apologize if my points have been made before. I honestly did not see them. The argument I saw predominantly was about the permanent sacrificing. So yeah, if its concluded, oops. Of course, it seems I'm not the only one who feels it wasn't closed... Anyway, I'll happily drop it if nobody cares.
#343 Iry Apr 19, 2008 2:18:27	I'm not really concerned at all about the requirements, though I guess I wasn't clear. I meant that Tenebrous could not be used to power Divine Feats or get extra uses of Domain feats. This is not because of the permanent sacrifice thing, but because of the fact that Tenebrous does not actually give you turn/rebuke attempts. Tenebrous lets you turn/rebuke; it does not give you turn/rebuke attempts. Thus, you have nothing to expend to use a Divine feat with. If divine feats, instead of requiring an expenditure of attempts, said, "whenever you use turn/rebuke undead, you can instead create X effect" or something along those lines, or if Tenebrous, instead of just giving you the ability to turn/rebuke, said "You gain one turn/rebuke attempt and it regenerates every 5 rounds" or something along those lines, then and only then could Tenebrous be used to power those feats. My recollection is that CustomerService has ruled in favor of allowing Tenebrous to power Divine Feats, and that they gave their customary "It's up to your DM" response as regards Tenebrous qualifying you to actually take the feats in the first place. This ruling should be located in one of the previous binder threads. I'll gladly go look for it after work tomorrow to prove or condemn my understanding of the rules. Additionally, I'll even send CustomerService another attempt at the question tonight just for my piece of mind.
#344 jameswilliamogle Apr 19, 2008 14:38:21	It's been about a year since I looked at the binder rules (and about 6 months since I've looked at any 3.5 rules), but I went back and took it look. It seems that the DCs were left out of the article (problem an oversight on my part). But I do have them: Gaia 39 Zuriel 43 Amun-her Khepeshef 47 Tkhaluuljin 49 Thanks for the clarification, EB!
#345 jameswilliamogle Apr 19, 2008 14:40:56	If you're speaking about the Tenebrous Apostate ability, CustomerService has ruled that the line saying you cannot use the ability again until 5 rounds has passed was unnecessary and should be ignored since you can only use it once per day. Oh well. I wasn't familiar w/ this.
#346 Iry Apr 19, 2008 15:55:44	Er... Not as concise as I would have hoped, but here's the most recent answer. 04/19/2008 09:46 AM Caelic'sLoveChild, Soulbinding is the actual class ability mechanic that Binder's receive, and not necessarily the class ability of turn / rebuke. As such, it is up to your DM to decide whether the special abilities granted by the Soulbinding mechanic count as class abilities too. You turn / rebuke as a cleric of your effective binder level, and that comes with all the normal abilities you might expect. Please write us back if you require any further assistance. We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire. To login to your account, or update your question please click here. Kevin Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada) 425-204-8069 (From all other countries) Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST 04/18/2008 04:30 PM The Vestige known as Tenebrous in Tome of Magic allows you to Turn/Rebuke Undead as a cleric of your effective binder level. As regards [Divine] feats which let you spend a Turn/Rebuke Undead attempt to gain various effects... A) Does having bound Tenebrous qualify you to take [Divine] feats at the normal levels in which you are allowed to gain feats? (3rd, 6th, ect) B) If you have Turn/Rebuke Undead from an official source (say, you're a Cleric1/Binder19) can you use the Turn/Rebuke Undead provided by the Tenebrous Vestige to activate the effects of [Divine] feats? Thank you ahead of time! ******************** Page Number: Multiple. Book Name: Tome of Magic
#347 jameswilliamogle Apr 19, 2008 16:03:58	Er... Not as concise as I would have hoped, but here's the most recent answer. ******************** Page Number: Multiple. Book Name: Tome of Magic This seems to be a subset of the first quote from custserv under the first page "handy custserv quotes", but thatnks for the additional clarification.
#348 Iry Apr 20, 2008 1:03:21	Oh well. I wasn't familiar w/ this. As far as the Apostle of the Green Lady is concerned, she gets mostly indenticle abilities but gets more skill points per level and 5/5 Spell Casting than Tenebrous Apostle.
#349 xoraxx Apr 20, 2008 8:04:25	As far as the Apostle of the Green Lady is concerned, she gets mostly indenticle abilities but gets more skill points per level and 5/5 Spell Casting than Tenebrous Apostle. It also loses a good save (Fort) and gains a lower Bab progression according to the text. So you do lose some things
#350 nephelim Apr 22, 2008 5:58:56	Is the Tenebrous Apostate supposed to have full Binding progression? The Soulbinding description states that it progresses at each level past first, as does the chart, but then says that the class sacks with Binder, implying all levels apply. Also, if Bloodlines are only applicable to values based on calculations that are explicitly tied to class level, how does that apply to Apostate if there is no explicit calculation, though there is clearly an implicit one?
#351 jameswilliamogle Apr 22, 2008 7:11:11	Is the Tenebrous Apostate supposed to have full Binding progression? The Soulbinding description states that it progresses at each level past first, as does the chart, but then says that the class sacks with Binder, implying all levels apply. Also, if Bloodlines are only applicable to values based on calculations that are explicitly tied to class level, how does that apply to Apostate if there is no explicit calculation, though there is clearly an implicit one? Since the description says it gets soubinding progression at each level past 1st, you only need to take the second level and it does progress. I don't know what TA was intended to have.
#352 nephelim Apr 22, 2008 21:52:25	So... pardon me for my ignorance with Bloodlines, JWM, but the Bloodline's effect on EBL does not come into play until TA level 2, becasue that's when you get the +1 Soulbinding? At which point your EBL goies up by 4 (+1 for TA2, +3 for Bloodline 3) right? Then later on, when I add Anima Mage, the Bloodline kicks in again, adding another+3 EBL on my first level of Anima mage, AND +3 caster level? If that's the case, I don't understand how the Bloodline applies that way... the +1 Soulbinding is not the same thing as having a class feature which states that your EBL increases as an explicit mathematic function involving class levels... Is it something to do with that clause in the Soulbinding class feature that states that this class "stacks with" binder levels to determine EBL?
#353 bensan Apr 23, 2008 3:18:16	Hey, more adventures of a Savage Tides binder. Forgot to post a couple, but we're going slowly anyway. Still using Dahlver-Nar since it's the same night in-game. Show Step 1: encounter a sleeping wolf-creature-thing. I drop my Shield Self on it while it's asleep, then the duskblade casts full-power Blade of Blood, charges up, crits, and gibs the dang thing. So not much from me there. Step 2: get ambushed by some jerkwads with crossbows. I got the best initiative roll after the surprise round, so I ran in and Maddening Moaned, dazing two of them for mopup. I think I hit one with my beatstick at some point. Step 3: Ixitxachitl! The wizard is developing self-esteem issues which she is choosing to salve by meleeing. This means I get to beat up an ixitxachitl that's chewing on her. One tries to flee, but I'm able to hit it with the Maddening Moan and the factotum picks it off with a well-placed arrow. Meanwhile the duskblade is using Shocking Grasp and Blade of Blood to rip a third to pieces while the warlock rolls poorly and the cleric patches up the wizard.
#354 jameswilliamogle Apr 23, 2008 8:14:22	So... pardon me for my ignorance with Bloodlines, JWM, but the Bloodline's effect on EBL does not come into play until TA level 2, becasue that's when you get the +1 Soulbinding? At which point your EBL goies up by 4 (+1 for TA2, +3 for Bloodline 3) right? Then later on, when I add Anima Mage, the Bloodline kicks in again, adding another+3 EBL on my first level of Anima mage, AND +3 caster level? that's how i read it. If that's the case, I don't understand how the Bloodline applies that way... the +1 Soulbinding is not the same thing as having a class feature which states that your EBL increases as an explicit mathematic function involving class levels... Is it something to do with that clause in the Soulbinding class feature that states that this class "stacks with" binder levels to determine EBL? Its b/c you: "Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level)." EBL is the only thing that needs to get advanced by Bloodlines, since this drives number of vestiges, and what level of vestige we can bind, and save DCs. Soulbinding +1 advances EBL... I'm ignoring other advancements for now. Some DMs might read that as strict as you do there, and say that since its not based on every level it isn't added. I read it as adding b/c the Soulbinding is written such that each level after the first. So, ultimately, either you read it as Bloodlines adding either: Anytime there is a calculation based on level (as you call them: implicit calculations do count), or Only when there is a calculation based on every level in the class (as you say: implicit calculations don't count) I think the wording under Bloodlines supports the former, but it is a minor semantics issue with major consequences.
#355 nephelim May 02, 2008 7:43:49	I was putting together a Binder\UrPreist\Apostsate character and while searching for feats, I stumbled across two that seem to hook into Tenebrous specifically. Divine Shield (CompWar) lets you burn a turn attempts to add your CHA to your Shield bonus for 1/2 Character Level rounds. It does require Shield Proficiency, though, so you'd probably want to use it for a KotSS. The other one is Death Devotion, a Domain feat from Complete champion that lets you spend a Turn Attempt to have your weapon of choice inflict negative levels as well as normal damage for a full minute. The save is class and CHA based, and as you ramp up in Character levels, you can apply additional Negative levels per target (up to 5 at L20). Spending 3 Turn\Rebuke attempts lets you use it an additional time per day. A Knight of Tenebrous could have a lot of fun with that...
#356 jameswilliamogle May 02, 2008 8:10:13	It has been debated up and down whether or not Tenebrous's Rebuke can let you actually take divine feats. Bottom line: its DM dependent. ************ BTW, I'm using a Binder / KoSS (Chupoclops) in an AoW game now. Let me just say: Shocktrooper + Pounce = awesome, and NOTHING thwarts a full attack more after that than Orthos and DR 10/magic. I took 4 full attacks over the session, and only took around 45 damage total from 30 hits that would've hit my normal AC, much less the reduced Headless Charge AC. Its a pretty nice setup: charge, pounce, full attack 2-handed, they counter w/ a full attack w/ 50% miss chance, then I use Whirlwind Breath to knock them back prone, and then charge to follow up. I also have more HP than the Warblade, somehow (I think b/c I have the +6 Con necklace). Its very sweet.
#357 panserbjorn_x May 02, 2008 9:43:47	Just to be clear on EBL. If it's high enough, does that mean you would be able to bind more than 4 vestiges at once? Or would you still need the epic feats? Only reason I ask, is because I am making an epic (as in ECL 44) character with the following advancement: Binder 18/Uncanny Trickster 3/Knight of the Sacred Seal 5/Cloistered Cleric 1/Apostle of the Green Lady 5/Crusader 2/Ruby Knight Vindicator 7/Major Bloodline 3. I do intend to have all 4 epic vestiges bound, so I need help picking which of the others to bind. My EBL (with Improved Binding) is 44. Does this mean I get a vestige for every 5 effective binder levels? Thanks in advance. ~P_X~
#358 nephelim May 02, 2008 15:45:09	Improved binding only helps to determine what Vestiges are available to be bound. Not going to help you in epic levels at all. I can't really speak to the class break-down, as its far beyond anything I've ever looked at.
#359 jameswilliamogle May 02, 2008 20:12:34	Just to be clear on EBL. If it's high enough, does that mean you would be able to bind more than 4 vestiges at once? Or would you still need the epic feats? Only reason I ask, is because I am making an epic (as in ECL 44) character with the following advancement: Binder 18/Uncanny Trickster 3/Knight of the Sacred Seal 5/Cloistered Cleric 1/Apostle of the Green Lady 5/Crusader 2/Ruby Knight Vindicator 7/Major Bloodline 3. I do intend to have all 4 epic vestiges bound, so I need help picking which of the others to bind. My EBL (with Improved Binding) is 44. Does this mean I get a vestige for every 5 effective binder levels? Thanks in advance. ~P_X~ Its not every 5 EBLs; its every 5 EBLs after 20th. And your EBL is only 37 by my calculations. Thats 7 vestiges. Use the three epic vestiges, Orthos, Chupoclops, Haures, and Acerak. Basically, as many immunities as possible.
#360 jameswilliamogle May 02, 2008 20:29:10	Hey, what about this idea: Binder 2 / Archivist 1 / Anima Mage (Divine Adaptation) 4 / Apostate of the Green Lady 4 / Knight of the Sacred Seal 5 / Scion of Dantalion 1 / Major Bloodline 3 The main trick here is that we hit EBL 21 at L15, and can take Bind Extra Vestige (from the epic supplement) at L15, L18, and hit an EBL 31 at L20, for 8 vestiges total. Pretty cool? Kind of opens whole new options for combos.
#361 scruloose May 02, 2008 21:05:43	Hey, what about this idea: Binder 2 / Archivist 1 / Anima Mage (Divine Adaptation) 4 / Apostate of the Green Lady 4 / Knight of the Sacred Seal 5 / Scion of Dantalion 1 / Major Bloodline 3 The main trick here is that we hit EBL 21 at L15, and can take Bind Extra Vestige (from the epic supplement) at L15, L18, and hit an EBL 31 at L20, for 8 vestiges total. Pretty cool? Kind of opens whole new options for combos. Except, unless otherwise noted (the dragonwrought kobold option being the only one I know of) epic feats also have a prerequisite of char level 21 to take (per the epic level handbook). Its not every 5 EBLs; its every 5 EBLs after 20th. And your EBL is only 37 by my calculations. Thats 7 vestiges. Use the three epic vestiges, Orthos, Chupoclops, Haures, and Acerak. Basically, as many immunities as possible. I was under the impression that the epic vestiges were not included in the 7. That would be 7 vestiges + 1 epic for every epic feat. Is that incorrect?
#362 panserbjorn_x May 02, 2008 21:40:21	Improved binding only helps to determine what Vestiges are available to be bound. Not going to help you in epic levels at all. I can't really speak to the class break-down, as its far beyond anything I've ever looked at. I guess I was thinking it was along the lines of Practiced Spellcaster/Manifester... Hmm. EBL 42 is still decent. :D Its not every 5 EBLs; its every 5 EBLs after 20th. And your EBL is only 37 by my calculations. Thats 7 vestiges. Use the three epic vestiges, Orthos, Chupoclops, Haures, and Acerak. Basically, as many immunities as possible. Binder 18 (+3): 21 Uncanny Trickster [Binder] +2 (+3): 5 Knight of the Sacred Seal +5 (+3): 8 Apostle of the Green Lady +5 (+3): 8 For a total of: 21+5+8+8 = 42 And Acerak wouldn't conflict with Amun-her, would it? Would be a rather emo combination...Hating yourself for binding a necro-related vestige. And there's 4 epic vestiges. ;) Except, unless otherwise noted (the dragonwrought kobold option being the only one I know of) epic feats also have a prerequisite of char level 21 to take (per the epic level handbook). Probably should have mentioned that part of my build. ;) You are right about JW's build though. I was under the impression that the epic vestiges were not included in the 7. That would be 7 vestiges + 1 epic for every epic feat. Is that incorrect? I read it the same way... It would help if they gave an example of an epic binder. ~P_X~
#363 jameswilliamogle May 02, 2008 22:25:25	Ah, its been a long day... I didn't realize that about the epic feats, and my math brain is obviously off. sry!
#364 panserbjorn_x May 03, 2008 19:50:12	So do Epic vestiges count against the maximum number allowed for binding? Even though they take a feat to even have access to. It is rather confusing. "Here, take this feat to be able to bind this epic vestige." "And here's another feat so that you can bind more than one epic vestige." "And this feat, increases the total number of vestiges you can have bound." Epic vestiges seem akin to epic spells. They don't take up a vestige 'slot', but you need to take the feat more than once to get access to multiple epic vestiges. Maybe this is just how I am reading things...Anyone care to voice their opinion? The thread devoted to epic binders is more about cheesing bloodlines to get an astronomical EBL (much like my now-nonexistent build). But doesn't make mention of this part of epic soulbinding. ~Astilbe
#365 Omen_of_Peace May 03, 2008 21:33:57	IMO an epic vestige still takes a vestige 'slot' ; otherwise it's pretty much superior to Extra Vestige in all ways. The Epic Spellcasting feat describes the mechanic by which it offers new slots - there is nothing like that in the Epic Vestige feats. edit: load of cr*p. Ignore.
#366 nephelim May 03, 2008 22:38:53	RAW, Epic Vestiges do NOT take up a slot. They have their own "slots" as it were, that are purchased with epic feats. One epic feat to know about the vestige enough to possibly bind it, another to actually open the "slot" to allow that epic vestige to be bound, and a third that allows for more than one simultaneous Epic Vestiges to be bound. None of these are gratned just by virtue of having an EBL over 20. Whether or not this makes the Ability to bind a fifth or more non-epic vestige is a separate question, and is certainly worth debating... but considering that ther are a number of Vestiges that have no cap at 20th level, the combination possibilities with 5 or 6 simultaneous non-epic vestiges are awe-inspiring. Add an Epic vestige or two ON TOP OF that... damn, like what.
#367 panserbjorn_x May 03, 2008 22:50:25	IMO an epic vestige still takes a vestige 'slot' ; otherwise it's pretty much superior to Extra Vestige in all ways. The Epic Spellcasting feat describes the mechanic by which it offers new slots - there is nothing like that in the Epic Vestige feats. You are thinking Improved Spellcasting Capacity. Which does give you higher-level slots for your spells. I am referring to Epic Spellcasting. The spells that have Spellcraft DCs in order to cast them. Extra Vestige (if it vestiges+epic vestiges work like you think) makes it so you can have unlimited (as long as you keep taking the feat) vestiges. So it does have it's uses. ~P_X~
#368 Omen_of_Peace May 03, 2008 23:03:44	Apologies... I got it completely wrong - I should have re-read the article before answering. Bind Additional Epic Vestige [Epic] You can bind an additional epic vestige. Prerequisites: Ability to bind two or more different epic vestiges; effective binder level 21st. Benefit: You can bind an additional epic vestige. Special: This feat can be taken multiple times. Each time you take it, you can simultaneously bind an additional epic vestige you know. For example, Peltaria, a 30th-level binder, has taken the Bind Gaia, Bind Amun-her Khepeshef, and Bind Zuriel epic feats. Without the Bind Additional Epic Vestige feat, she can bind only one of those vestiges at a given time. Peltaria has taken this feat twice, allowing her to bind all three of her epic vestiges simultaneously. You get 1 epic slot 'for free' when you first take a "Bind Epic Vestige X" (Gaia for instance), then you need to take the above feat (after having taken a 2nd "Bind Epic Vestige" feat) to bind 2 at a time, then 3... Thanks Nephelim for the correction. So I did mean Epic Spellcasting but I was out of it ;). As it is, I do think epic vestiges have separate slots, like epic spells.
#369 _inertia_ May 25, 2008 15:46:13	Has anyone ever considered the possibilities with a gestalt Binder build? (Disclaimer: I've never played gestalt, so this is purely theoretical.) Specifically, a build such as: Binder 20 // Binder 20. Or, slightly more optimized: Binder 20 // Binder 16 KotSS 4. If I understand the gestalt rules correctly, these builds would (at 20th level) allow the binding of a total of 8 vestiges at once. In addition, you would have a total of 9 pact augmentations to choose from, though a ***** DM could rule that augmentations from one side do not stack with augmentations from the other. However, even in that case, you could still take energy resistance (sonic) 25 and energy resistance (acid) 20. Consider binding the following: Acererak - for immunity to cold and electricity, heals from negative energy Buer - for fast healing, and immunity to disease Naberius - for quick recovery of ability damage Add in the Soul Guardian class features, and you are also immune to negative levels, abilty drain, and have a permanent mind blank active. Best of all, you still have 5 more vestige "slots" to fill, according to how what you want to focus your character on. So can someone clarify if I understand this correctly? It doesn't seem out-of-line, considering that spellcasters get 2 sets of spell slots; binders would essentially get 2 sets of vestige slots.
#370 Richmud May 27, 2008 14:51:12	Has anyone ever considered the possibilities with a gestalt Binder build? (Disclaimer: I've never played gestalt, so this is purely theoretical.) Specifically, a build such as: Binder 20 // Binder 20. Or, slightly more optimized: Binder 20 // Binder 16 KotSS 4. These are not legal gestalt builds, gestalt does not allow you to take a class twice it simply allows you to take two classes at once
#371 jameswilliamogle May 27, 2008 17:49:46	Although that one isn't legal, you could do: Binder 19 / Bloodline 1 // Ardent 3 / Anima Mage (Divine Adaptation) 7 / Scion of Dantalion 1 / Tenebrous Apostate 2 / KoSS 5 / Bloodline 2 And end up w/ an EBL of 48, and 9th level Psionic Powers (w/ careful staggering of Anima Mage on the right side), decent BAB, great saves, lots of immunities, 4 pact augmentations. That makes for 9 vestiges from EBL. You also hit EBL 21 at ECL 10, so can take Bind Additional Vestige 3 times, so it could be 12 vestiges. If you use VoP and the Embrace/Shun shuffle then you could have a total of 21 vestiges (if I remember correctly). If your DM says you can embrace/shun your martial weapon proficiencies from KoSS then you end up with more than 100 vestiges. If he says you can do it w/ Exotic Weapon Proficiency from The Triad, then you end up with more than 200. Those could be any feats... but if your DM says this all works in his game, then you should be using the homebrew vestiges linked on page 1. Yes, I've considered gestalt. Its wicked powerful, but thats expected for gestalt.
#372 nephelim Jun 11, 2008 12:20:37	OK, I imagine that I can't be the only one of us who is a little more than slightly disappointed in the way that the Binder was "wrapped" into the 4E Warlock, reduced to little more than window dressing. I was thinking about ways in which it could be resurrected, as it were, and I'm wondering if anyone has already started looking at this seriously?
#373 Slaunyeh Jun 17, 2008 17:20:57	OK, I imagine that I can't be the only one of us who is a little more than slightly disappointed in the way that the Binder was "wrapped" into the 4E Warlock, reduced to little more than window dressing. I was thinking about ways in which it could be resurrected, as it were, and I'm wondering if anyone has already started looking at this seriously? Yeah, I've been wondering about the same thing myself. I don't really see how to do anything that flexible in the 4e character class system, but hopefully there's some untapped potential that I'm not seeing. I certainly hoping to see the Binder return!
#374 nephelim Jun 24, 2008 13:29:26	I started a thread in the Homebrew section outlining my ideas... but to put it simply, they are Arcane controllers who have "suites" of powers - Vestiges - that they choose from each day, similar to the Wizard's spellbook, but without as much flexibility. However, they end up with a lot of at-will powers to choose 2 from on any given day. Have a look. Its a bit thin on crunch right now, and I'm trying to find time to plug away at the "core" vestiges, but I'm curious to get opinions.
#375 charlemagne Jul 01, 2008 8:15:01	Someone help me out. What am I missing? First post of this thread shows the creator binding level 5 vestiges at Level 7 character class. How is he doing this?
#376 Omen_of_Peace Jul 01, 2008 12:01:17	It's a mistake.
#377 scruloose Jul 01, 2008 16:08:16	Someone help me out. What am I missing? First post of this thread shows the creator binding level 5 vestiges at Level 7 character class. How is he doing this? If the build has the Improved Binding feat, he treats his level as level 9 for taking vestiges. That will allow him to take a 5th level vestige. Edit: Actually, as Omen just pointed out, that is still one level short. My guess is the OP did the same thing.
#378 Omen_of_Peace Jul 01, 2008 17:31:18	5th level vestiges are available at binder level 10 only.
#379 keyes2004 Jul 31, 2008 14:26:42	My girlfriend is playing a binder in one of our campaigns. I'll see about referring her to this thread, because it looks like it has a lot of useful stuff.
#380 nephelim Aug 08, 2008 14:28:34	Hey everyone. Question about Tenebrous Apostate's Tenebrous Rebuke. Its not stated, but the only effect that I know of that will heal undead is negative energy damage. Does that at least imply that if you are an evil apostate that you could use your Rebuke to harm non-undead?
#381 panserbjorn_x Aug 08, 2008 16:57:12	Hey everyone. Question about Tenebrous Apostate's Tenebrous Rebuke. Its not stated, but the only effect that I know of that will heal undead is negative energy damage. Does that at least imply that if you are an evil apostate that you could use your Rebuke to harm non-undead? Based on the text of the ability, the damage is untyped. But I guess it would be safe to say that your DM could rule otherwise. ~P_X~
#382 maddening_depths Aug 26, 2008 12:44:25	What did everyone think about the 4th Ed build for binder in the Converting Your Character article for Tome of Magic? Seemed to lack flavour with quite bland suggestions.
#383 nephelim Aug 27, 2008 9:40:15	Hadn't seen that... I'll have a look, but I've been very disappointed with the way that Binders got subsumed into Warlocks. On the other hand, the Star-Pact Warlock article in this month's Dragon does add a lot of flavor to that particular kind of binder-ish warlock...
#384 jameswilliamogle Nov 28, 2008 19:12:42	If the build has the Improved Binding feat, he treats his level as level 9 for taking vestiges. That will allow him to take a 5th level vestige. Edit: Actually, as Omen just pointed out, that is still one level short. My guess is the OP did the same thing. Its a typo. Every Binder grinding it up before 12th-15th level will want Improved Binding, so I assumed the character would have it, and still messed it up by 1 level. edit: I'm rereading some stuff, and was curious: do you think there would be any interesting effects generated from using the feat Extend Supernatural Ability (or the other Su feats in ToM) w/ the Anima Mage's metamagic reduction thingy?
#385 Slad_Chaos Jan 02, 2009 7:10:18	Hello, with Malphas, a binder with a raven make skill checks as following : _ 1d20 + 5 for Spot _ 1d20 + 3 for Listen _ 1d20 - ? for Search _ 1d20 - ? for Bluff Thanks for your future help.
#386 jameswilliamogle Jan 27, 2009 18:09:27	A pure fun build: Whispergnome Binder 15 / KoSS 5 1 Magic in the Blood 3 Fey Heritage 4b Improved Binding 6 Fey Presence 9 Fey Legacy 12 Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike 15 Mageslayer 18 Expel Vestige So, you have, just from feats and race, 20 SLA's a day (Confuse, Charm Monster, SNA 4). You'll have stuff to do every 5 rounds otherwise. And - you want to talk about hilarious? - you can use Zagan to grapple creatures as a large (!) sized creature. ie, cast confusion on the mob, and whatever resisted you get to grapple with (the one that resisted is likely a spellcaster). You can use your ridiculous hide bonuses with Andromalus, too. All-in-all, though, not a power build, but sure seems like a helluva fun build to play with.
#387 steve101 Feb 08, 2009 11:08:12	So is a binder assumed to have knowledge of all the vestiges or does he have to find them somehow? I couldn't find where in the tome of magic it said anything about this.
#388 jameswilliamogle Feb 08, 2009 17:30:25	They're supposed to have all knowledge of them. But, you're right, it isn't discussed very well. I've heard of DMs making players randomly get access to just a few per level; to me, this is wrong, as that's a completely new mechanic. When in doubt, keep your Knowledge: Planes maximized for this situation. EDIT: The second paragraph under "The Binder" has in its first line "Only the binder has that key, for only he knows the vestiges' special seals and the rituals by which they can be called from the void beyond reality." This could be taken for flavor text, but it does say that they know the seals, and under the flavor section before that on the process of binding, it doesn't say anywhere that the binder needs to know what they're binding (as long as they draw the seal).
#389 BloodDragon Feb 08, 2009 19:35:35	Though on the subject of “Known Vestiges” the subject “Existing Vestiges” might come up, because depending on what campaign you're playing in certain vestiges "don't exist yet." So you might be in a little hot water when your DM pulls out a stack of old books saying: "I'm thinking of running an old campaign." The reason for this is almost ALL of the Vestiges are old villains or important figures from D&D’s history. Even though binding a vestige with the same name as a predominant villian in your campaign has absolutely NO impact on the game, some DMs will get really antsy about it. Simply talk to them and just Rename the vestige and retool its lore. Vestige that I know for sure that are from past campaigns: Amon, Leraje, Ronove, Haagenti, Karsus, Primus, Ahazu, Tenebrous, Kas, Astaroth (non-cityscape), Acererak, Geryon, Zagan, Ashardalon Not 100% about: Naberius, Eligor, Marchosias- because I suspect they went be different names at the time of living. Editted: Removed Spoilers...
#390 phaedrusxy Feb 09, 2009 13:06:03	I'm working on a binder/ur-priest, and am wondering what vestiges would be good to bind. I've looked through the handbook and Tome of Magic, but there are so many choices... I'm using one of Frank and K's PrCs (Stranger with the Burning Eyes), which requires Still and Silent Spell to get into, and I'm cheesing early entry into Anima Mage with Precocious Apprentice and Improved Binding. I'm also assuming the DM will let me change Anima Mage from adding to Sorcerer levels to Ur-Priest levels. I'm also making pretty heavy use of Mother Cyst, so that has to stay. Pretty much the build is locked into stone. I'm just looking for what vestiges would be good to bind for day to day needs. All the party roles are filled (and then some), so mostly I'll keep stuff bound for combat most of the time, I guess. I'm definitely buying a vestige phylactery, though. The character has no body of his own, and has enslaved a war troll which he usually possesses via a supernatural Magic Jar ability. He mostly functions as a self-buffing melee character, but can also try and possess enemies in combat and out of it, and is a devious guy with lots of connections. So... here's what I have so far: Human Sorc 1/Binder1/Anima Mage 3/Ur-Priest 1/AM+4/Contemplative 1/SwBE1 Feats: Spell Focus: Evil (human), PrecocApp(flaw1)(retrained to Silent Spell at ECL 5), Still Spell (flaw2), Toughness (1)(retrained to Improved Binding at ECL2), Extend Spell (3), Mother Cyst (6), Practiced SC: UrP (9), Persistent Spell (12), Iron Will (Otyugh Hole) Feats from being devoted to an Elder Evil: Evil's Blessing, Dark Speech, Dark Whispers Domain from contemplative: Sin-Envy (needed to get into SwBE) EBL 10 (5th level vestiges), UrP 7, Sorc4 Vestiges usually bound: Balam, (Naberius, Buer, Dantalion?) Long duration buffs (all CL 20 unless noted otherwise): Consumptive Field (CL14), Divine Power, Righteous Might, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Magic Vestment (x2), Greater Magic Weapon, Superior Resistance, Heroes Feast, Permanent Arcane Sight (CL21), Shield Other (on familiar). Naberius would let me use the Dark Whispers vile feat with impunity, which is decent, but there are alot of other good choices. The campaign will involve planar travel, investigation, and tough combat with powerful enemies.
#391 jameswilliamogle Feb 09, 2009 18:21:47	So, I read 8 EBL so that gives you 1 vestige... uhm... Naberius, and you're done I guess... Other options: The Green Lady (the Paizo-board based one), choosing Ray of Enfeeblement as your 1st level spell choice (get it? Su Ray of Enfeeblement at CL 8? So, d6+4 Str penalty on a ranged touch, with no SR? Sounds like an awesome debuff to me!). I also like Malphus for general sneaky shenanigans. Andras will give you some nice Cha synergy w/ the smiting. Yeah, thats about it, I guess.
#392 phaedrusxy Feb 09, 2009 19:41:01	He has EBL 10, from Improved Binding. I'm thinking of keeping Balam bound all the time, and switching between these others: Astaroth (stench, yellowed skin)(item crafting): http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a Bardic Knowledge, Stinking Cloud breath, skill bonuses, craftsman, Suggestion Buer (hooves)(OOC healing): healing touch, fast healing, disease and poison immunity (30 foot RADIUS), Track, +4 Know (nature, untrained), +4 survival Dantalion (face on torso)(movement): Sanctuary (more powerful version), Read Thoughts, teleport 50' 1/5 rnds, +8 knowledge Geryon (eyes)(scouting/movement): +4 spot and search, swift fly 60' 1/5 rnds, see in darkness, all-around-vision, acidic gaze (30', 2d6, will negates) Malphas (black teeth and tongue)(scouting): Move action invisibility, summon dove/raven, Poison Use, Sudden Strike (3d6) Naberius: when I feel like using Dark Speech/Whispers When needed, I can use these combos: vs mobs: Otiax (blue fog): Combat Reflexes, Concealing Mist (personal concealment), Open Portal (swift action), Unlock (up to DC 20), Air Blast (2d6 touch attack, 10 ft range) Paimon (stretched mouth)(vs mobs): Whirlwind Attack, pseudo-dervish dance, +4 dex, tumble +4 social: Astaroth: +4 comp. to bluff, intimidate, and diplom, Suggestion (as spell) Naberius (gravelly voice): take 10 bluff and dipl, rushed, Command (as spell) knowledge: Astaroth: bardic knowledge (EBL) Dantalion: +8 all unnamed
#393 BloodDragon Feb 09, 2009 20:00:30	8 EBL still gives him two vestiges? He has EBL 10, from Improved Binding. Improved Binding only increases your EBL when determining the level of vestiges you can bind. It does not improved the number of vestiges you can bind, if those two extra level would give you the edge. But that’s ok because as I mentioned before in your case an 8th level Soul Binder can bind two vestiges regaurdless. You're 10th level for determining how powerful vestiges you can bind.
#394 phaedrusxy Feb 09, 2009 20:26:15	Right. So I'm thinking I'll keep Balam bound if I'm expecting to get into combat at all (or pretty much all the time...), and use the others as listed. I really like the reroll every 5 rounds. That's just freakin' amazing. The boost to initiative and other stuff is awesome, too. Right now, his Initiative is going to be +18 most of the time, and that's without Improved Initiative... That plus the Cunning ability from his Legacy item should mean that he pretty much always goes first, even when the group is surprized (except for the party Factotum, whose init. is +20 :P ). Since I can bind a vestige given a minute or two, or faster if I have it in the Phylactery ahead of time, what do you guys think about going around with only 1 bound, and binding another when I think I'll need it? That would give me a bit more flexibility than just having 2+ the phylactery. Most of the others besides Balam are just gravy, anyway. Or is that just silly? I'm also considering using clerical divinations to see which ones would be best to bind ahead of time. ;)
#395 jameswilliamogle Feb 09, 2009 21:09:01	Use the divinations, and use the one that gives divination every round (I forget the name). Naberius, to me, is the most general can-use-it-in-any-situation vestige you have listed (plus, as you got it, the Dark Speach / Whispers...).
#396 phaedrusxy Feb 09, 2009 21:24:18	Use the divinations, and use the one that gives divination every round (I forget the name). Naberius, to me, is the most general can-use-it-in-any-situation vestige you have listed (plus, as you got it, the Dark Speach / Whispers...). Calibri or something like that. I don't have the dragon mag for that one, but I wish I did... That sounds nuts. I was planning on just casting Commune (a day or two ideally) before each "mission" and asking which vestige is the best, second best, etc, to prepare (or something like that... I'll try to come up with a good system). The DM will probably hate me if I go that route, though, as he'll have to figure out which ones are the best if I do it that way, lol. So maybe I'll ask something like "will we get ambushed?" "Will a social interaction be critical?" "Will I need to scout?" etc... Naberius is nice, but I think I like Balam overall the best, and some of the others are amazing too, for the right situations like Malphas for scouting, etc. Buer is nice, but not necessary. The travel ability of Dantalion could be awesome in some situations, also. So what do you think about only keeping one (Balam) bound, and binding others later as I think I'll need them? That way, I can bind Malphas to scout, Naberius for social needs, Buer for healing, etc, as needed. None of those are as critical to have up in case of ambush as Balam, I don't think, though.
#397 jameswilliamogle Feb 10, 2009 6:30:55	Yeah that's not a bad plan at all. Calibri or something like that. I don't have the dragon mag for that one, but I wish I did... That sounds nuts. PM me an email address.
#398 phaedrusxy Feb 12, 2009 18:02:59	Ok... I'm in love with Binders I guess. :D I'm making another one. This is for a gestalt game starting at 1st level. It is also a PbP, so I want to plan for early levels, mostly. It is a pseudo-viking setting, and I'm sure some people would want to burn me at the stake if I started walking around with horns and breathing fire. Most of the enemies will probably be human, though, at least to start. I'm thinking of pairing it with either rogue or bard for skills at 1st, or maybe the trapfinding ranger variant. That favored enemy (human) could actually come in handy in a human-centric game. Druid is actually tempting too, though, as having a mount and focusing on melee combat would probably be pretty effective. I'm leaning more towards the sneaky, skill-based guy, with lots of tricks up his sleeves, though. Suggestions? I'm leaning strongly towards Binder/Ranger or Binder/Rogue at this point. Race will be human or half-elf (if I decide to go diplomonster).
#399 jameswilliamogle Feb 12, 2009 19:32:34	Suggestions? I'm leaning strongly towards Binder/Ranger or Binder/Rogue at this point. Race will be human or half-elf (if I decide to go diplomonster). That Binder // Trapfinding Ranger is going to be freakin' awesome-sauce and a half... I think I'd play a Swift Hunter on the Ranger side and a straight Binder / KoSS on the other. Improved Binding is super important, but then you can use Malphus (and it's bird's-eye-viewing) for scouting (plus, you still look like a Ranger, complete with animal companion, even with Scout levels first :D). I'd pick other feats as a normal Swift Hunter. Holy smokes... Leraje's Ricochet shot with Hunter's Mercy??? EDIT<-may not work; probably would take a really lenient DM...
#400 phaedrusxy Feb 12, 2009 21:22:07	I think he's nerfed Swift Hunter and other gestalt-like feats. I was thinking Leraje might actually be decent at 1st, though. +1 to hit, a boost to hide, and hit two targets per shot is actually decent. I'll probably have Malphus or Naberius bound most of the time, though. Or Savnok. Freakin full plate is hard to beat for melee at level 1. :P I doubt I'll stick with ranger, though, as I think I'm dumping Wis. It is a hard choice, because some of those non-core ranger spells are really good. I could always dip archivist, though, if I want to get the casting back. :D Still debating if I want to focus on melee or ranged, ultimately. At level 1, I will definitely be using a bow if possible, though.
#401 phaedrusxy Feb 13, 2009 16:14:24	Ok, I think I'm going Binder 1//Ranger 1 at 1st, and taking Skill Focus: Diplomacy and Improved Binding. At level 2, I'll pick up a level of Marshall and trade SF: Dip for Expel Vestige. With a MW tool, that will let me get a 21 taking 10 with Naberius on Diplomacy at level 1, and it will jump to 30 at level 2 (+6 from synergy, +1 rank, and another +2 from Motivate Charisma). DC 20 gets me from Hostile to Indifferent (avoiding fights, good at level 1), and DC 30 can get me from Indifferent to Friendly, or Unfriendly to Friendly (both really good for manipulating people). The loss of Expel Vestige will sting, but hopefully I can live with it for one level. I think I will be able to plan what vestige to bind, based on how I see this campaign progressing. It will involve lots of exploration and overland traveling, with encounters along the way, I think. I'll bind Naberius when I know we're going to be in town, Malphus when we're traveling, and maybe Savnok if I know a big fight is coming up soon. My main worry is that the DM will basically Rule 0 Diplomacy into uselessness, leaving me with signifigant resources wasted (a feat, which could have been Expel Vestige, and 50 gp of my precious starting money). Here is the character: Show Herger Helfdane (Human Binder 1//Ranger 1) (med) (humanoid) Hit Dice:1d8+2 (10) Initiative: +2 Speed: 30 Armor Class: 17 Touch: 12 Flat-footed: 15 (10+3armor+2shield+2dex) Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+3 Attack: longsword +3 (1d8+2, 19-20/x2), sling +3 (1d4+2, 20/x2, 50' range increment) Full Attack: same Space/Reach: 5'/5' Special Qualities: Favored Enemy: Human (+2 Bluff, Sense Motive, Spot, Listen, Survival, and damage); Wild Empathy; Soul Binding (1 vestige) Saves: Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +1 Abilities: Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 14 Skills: (ranks + modifiers)(number after slash is vs. humans) Hide +3 (4+2-3), Move Silently +3 (4+2-3), Spot +3/5 (4-1), Listen -1/+1, Bluff +6/8 (4+2), Diplomacy +11(4+2+3+2), Knowledge: Arcana +3(1+2), Knowledge: Planes +3(1+2), Knowledge: Nobility & Royalty +4 (2+2), Sense Motive +3/5(4-1), Search +6(4+2), Survival +3/5(4-1) Feats: Improved Binding, Skill Focus: Diplomacy, Track, martial weapons, shields (not tower), light armor Alignment: True Neutral Languages Spoken: Common (Rashemi), Common (Halruuan), Giant Possessions: (starting money 150 gp) studded leather (25 gp, 20 lbs, -1 ACP), heavy wooden shield (7 gp, 10 lbs, -2 ACP), sling and 10 bullets (1 gp, 5 lbs), cold iron longsword (30 gp, 4 lbs), cold weather outfit (8 gp, 7 lbs), 50' silk rope (10 gp, 5 lbs), backpack (2 lbs, 2 gp), winter blanket (5 sp, 3 lbs), 5 pieces of chalk (5 cp), flint and steel (1 gp), torch (1 cp, 1 lb), empty waterskin (1 gp, 4 lbs full), magnificent bearhide cape (MW diplomacy tool, 50 gp), 3 elvencrafted arrows (?) Money: 14 gold, 4 silver, 4 copper Encumbrance: Light (58 lb. or less) Medium (59-116 lb.) Heavy (117-175 lb.); 57 lbs total gear weight Soul Binding description: (the DM doesn't have Tome of Magic) Show The first step to call and bind a vestige is to draw its unique sign, which is about 5 feet across. This takes about 1 minute, and some vestiges have special requirements about how they can be summoned (see individual entries). Then the binder performs a ritual which takes a full round action to call out to the vestige, using its name and title. The vestige appears as a dramatic image, described in each entry, but obviously illusionary to anyone who studies it. It ignores everyone but its summoner. The binder must immediately (within 1 round) begin negotiating with the vestige. This negotiation takes one minute, at the end of which he makes a binding check (1d20+ effective binder level (EBL) + charisma modifier vs the DC listed for that vestige). Successful or not, he gains all the powers listed for that vestige for 24 hours. Unsuccessful bindings allow the vestige to influence the binder's behavior while they bound, though. Regardless, the binder also manifests some sign of the bound vestige (not an illlusion, still shown as real by True Seeing, etc).
#402 jameswilliamogle Feb 13, 2009 19:11:20	Expel Vestige isn't all that necessary, I've found, for quite a while (its just better to plan for the one vestige you've got; Malphus for normal days and Naberius for city-type days). I'd stay ranged for a while if I were you.
#403 jameswilliamogle Feb 14, 2009 9:00:11	OK, so I've been taking a look again at Epic Binders, and am thinking about really high-powered games. Mainly, I'm considering the Epic Vestiges, which all require lots of ranks in Knowledges (History is the most common). So, I know that Dragonwrought Kobolds can qualify for Epic feats due to the Draconomicon stuff, but I was wondering if there were some Shapechange forms that get epic levels of Knowledge: History for this. If I could get one, then using a Dragonwrought Kobold Binder / Sorcerer / Anima Mage build with Bloodline levels using Persistant Shapechange might be able to get at least one of the epic vestiges. Anybody have an idea?
#404 phaedrusxy Feb 14, 2009 13:09:06	It is really freakin' hard to get max ranks higher than HD + 3. I know you can exceed it by 1 (via an apprentice feat or something), but I don't know how to go higher than that.... well barring getting permanent extra hid dice via Shapechanging into a Barghest and using their feed ability, but you've really gone to crazy town if you start doing stuff like that, IMO. :P
#405 jameswilliamogle Feb 14, 2009 14:30:58	It is really freakin' hard to get max ranks higher than HD + 3. I know you can exceed it by 1 (via an apprentice feat or something), but I don't know how to go higher than that.... well barring getting permanent extra hid dice via Shapechanging into a Barghest and using their feed ability, but you've really gone to crazy town if you start doing stuff like that, IMO. :P Looking into the Shapechange spell, I'm looking for where it says that you don't gain the skill ranks of the assumed form... Can someone explain how you don't get these ranks (I never play with the poly line of spells)?
#406 phaedrusxy Feb 14, 2009 14:37:50	You have to go all the way back to Alter Self. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. Your skill points come from your class levels.
#407 jameswilliamogle Feb 14, 2009 14:40:53	You have to go all the way back to Alter Self. Your skill points come from your class levels. Well, no offense, but I'm not convinced... yet. I don't think its standard thinking about the poly line, but maybe it does change? I dunno...
#408 phaedrusxy Feb 14, 2009 18:54:45	Well, no offense, but I'm not convinced... yet. I don't think its standard thinking about the poly line, but maybe it does change? I dunno... What line in the spell makes you think you would get it? I don't see anything that indicates that. You don't just get everything by default. You only get the stuff it says you get. It doesn't say anything about things derived from class levels, or hit dice. It also says you keep your hit dice. And I don't buy the "everything has to be a Su, SLA, or Ex ability" argument, either. That way leads to complete craziness (getting cleric spells from Planetars, etc).
#409 jameswilliamogle Feb 14, 2009 19:05:43	What line in the spell makes you think you would get it? I don't see anything that indicates that. You don't just get everything by default. You only get the stuff it says you get. It doesn't say anything about things derived from class levels, or hit dice. It also says you keep your hit dice. And I don't buy the "everything has to be a Su, SLA, or Ex ability" argument, either. That way leads to complete craziness (getting cleric spells from Planetars, etc). OK, that's more convincing. Oh well...
#410 saywaffletime Feb 19, 2009 23:14:47	Hey all, first time post. I'm planning on a playing a binder.(Wow saywaffletime! your serious, posting on the binder handbook.) anyways, the party is lvl 9 and I was thinking a human, but... I don't really know what to play. I've tried 2 builds in some tests in my party last week. Amon, Dantalion. max,empower,linger breath..and was one shotted by a giant 2nd time. Chup, Ronove. Wow saywaffletime you get suggested to kill the cleric during your shift and your dealing 2d10 d4 +9.. you suck! can't even kill a cleric jeez! anyways I digress, I think I'll try a paimon based binder, but what vestige synergizes with paimon? also what good magic gear (36k no item more then 9k) good base stats? no stat above 18, 32 point buy. Thanks in advance for any help:D
#411 jameswilliamogle Feb 21, 2009 21:05:16	Hey all, first time post. I'm planning on a playing a binder.(Wow saywaffletime! your serious, posting on the binder handbook.) anyways, the party is lvl 9 and I was thinking a human, but... I don't really know what to play. I've tried 2 builds in some tests in my party last week. Amon, Dantalion. max,empower,linger breath..and was one shotted by a giant 2nd time. Chup, Ronove. Wow saywaffletime you get suggested to kill the cleric during your shift and your dealing 2d10 d4 +9.. you suck! can't even kill a cleric jeez! anyways I digress, I think I'll try a paimon based binder, but what vestige synergizes with paimon? also what good magic gear (36k no item more then 9k) good base stats? no stat above 18, 32 point buy. Thanks in advance for any help:D Try: Human Binder 5 / Knight of Sacred Seal 4 Str 14, Dex 18 (14 + 4 from Paimon), Con 14, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 18 (16 + 2 from levels) Paimon (KoSS patron), Malphus Feats 1,b Combat Expertise, Power Attack 3 Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike 4b Improved Binding 6 Deadly Defense 9 Improved Initiative. Buy a decent rapier and Boots of Speed. Use the rapier with both hands, and take a 2 point to Combat Expertise (and whatever you feel like from Power Attack), and combine with Paimon's Deadly Dance. That'll give you a 60' movement, striking tons of people along the way (and you're likely to catch them flatfooted, too, which adds Malphus's Sudden Strike damage). You want +2 Dex gloves, too. Initiative: +11 (put your pact augmentation here) To Hit: +11 (+ enhancement from rapier) Damage: d6 + 2 + d6 + (2 x Power Attack modifier) + 3d6 Sudden Strike = 19.5 + Power Attack modifier Notice, this will work great against lots of weak creatures, but will generally suck against your typical BBEGs. IF YOU CAN USE TOME OF BATTLE: Do this instead - Swordsage 5 / Binder 3 Combine Paimon, Assasin's Stance, and Shadow Blade to get lots of Dex to damage.
#412 jameswilliamogle Mar 03, 2009 18:52:19	Captain Funky!!! Phrenic Whispergnome (w/ LA Buyoff) Sorcerer 2 / Binder 1 / Anima Mage 9 / Druid 1 (Shapeshift Variant) / Geomancer 7 1 Magic in the Blood, f: Versatile Spellcaster, f: Extend Spell 3 Improved Binding 6 Persistant Spell 9 Heighten Spell 12 Power Attack 15 Imp. Bull Rush 18 Leap Attack Crazy SLAs (29 / day). Lots of DD and utility in the list (plus, Fission!!1!). L18 Sorcerous Spellcasting. BAB +crap. Drifts: L2 Comely as a Dryad (+4 Diplomacy) Skin of the Octapus (+4 Hide) L3 Toes of a Lion (rake attack d4) Deer Antlers (gore d6) L4 Grab like a Bear (Improved Grab) Vestiges Used Ronove (IUS) Chupoclops (bite attack and pounce) Persistant and Long-term Spells Dragon Breath (b/c I'm silly :P) Bite of the Werebear Greater Mirror Image Heroics (Extended) - Shocktrooper Attacks 2 claws bite (2 of them) gore rake imp grab breath weapon iterative unarmed strikes (using skillful gauntlets to get 3 attacks off of it) (ie, 3 iterative attacks plus 4 nattie attacks plus rake and imp grab and a breath weapon) Use fission to make two of you three times per day, to make that 14 attacks per round (when you charge), double the number of dragon breath attacks, double the number of ethereal jaunts, etc. LOL!
#413 phaedrusxy Mar 04, 2009 10:46:26	Captain Funky!!! Phrenic Whispergnome (w/ LA Buyoff) Sorcerer 2 / Binder 1 / Anima Mage 9 / Druid 1 (Shapeshift Variant) / Geomancer 7 1 Magic in the Blood, f: Versatile Spellcaster, f: Heighten Spell 3 Improved Binding 6 Persistant Spell 9 Power Attack 12 Imp Bull Rush 15 Shocktrooper 18 Leap Attack Crazy build. You need Extend as a prereq for Persistent, though. Retrain Heighten to that at some point, and it works. You could also get Shock Trooper from casting Heroics to free up another spot.
#414 jameswilliamogle Mar 04, 2009 11:14:57	Crazy build. You need Extend as a prereq for Persistent, though. Retrain Heighten to that at some point, and it works. You could also get Shock Trooper from casting Heroics to free up another spot. fix'd.
#415 jameswilliamogle Mar 04, 2009 20:31:08	Anti-Caster build (ported from BG boards) Karsite (LA Buyoff, otherwise use a human) Barbarian 1 (Lion Totem variant) / Fighter 1 / Binder 12 / Knight of Sacred Seal 5 (Karsus) / minor Bloodline 1 1,b Extra Rage, Instantaneous Rage 2b Weapon Focus: Anything 3 Intimidating Rage 6 Imperious Command 7b Improved Binding 9 Power Attack 12 Improved Bull Rush 15 Mageslayer 18 Leap Attack 19b Expel Vestige BAB: +16 EBL: 20 (4 vestiges) Saves: F 15 R 5 W 9 3 Pact Augmentations Immunity to Fear Slippery Mind Vestiges: Karsus - Using Dispelling Touch to dispel buffs (should be around 50%, though it could be less) or ring of freedom for a few rounds - Also used for a wand of heroics for Shocktrooper - Also used for staffs of varying utility (Dimensional Lock is a good one) - Also used to detect magic auras - Also used for Alter Self cheese for Dwarven Ancestor, if necessary Zagan - Uses grappling from Zagan to grapple the caster after debuffing them - Also, Aversion to try to deter any minions that are about Haures - To become immune to divination via Mindblank Zceryl - To be able to get your own monsters to counter the others, and/or to be a target for the Wizards potent stuff first Commentary: So, I don't by any means think that this could really stand a chance against a Theoretical Optimization Wizard, or even an extremely paranoid one (although it seems to be able to do much better than I ever expected over on BG). Instead, this is just a build, without too much cheese, to work against general spellcasters. It can beat Celerity, in most cases, but the general consensus is that it cannot beat Celerity if Mindblank is running or some other way to make the caster immune to fear or [mind] effects. It WILL go first, no matter what, against anything not immune to fear or [mind] if it wants to use a Rage. The most important equipment includes a Belt of Battle as well as staffs to counter specific spell combos the wizard might have running. Antimagic Field in a staff could be... interesting... The biggest issue with getting around the TO wizard is contingency. If anyone has a practical way to do that, please let me know. Here's what we've discussed: Show Sunder the Focus Item: The problem is that since magic auras eminate, the caster only needs to keep it covered up, and we won't see it. Antimagic Field: The problem there is that although not clear in the spell description, there could be a contingency "if I'm ever about to be put into an AMF, then..." etc. I don't know how this would work out in a real game, but it does seem silly to have the contingency go off when nobody is aware of the AMF approaching. But, whatever. MDJ: Again, same issue as AMF.
#416 erhnamdj Mar 04, 2009 20:53:35	Any plan against dire tortoise? Can't he be a dire tortoise himself?
#417 jameswilliamogle Mar 04, 2009 21:03:34	Any plan against dire tortoise? Can't he be a dire tortoise himself? Oh, for sure! Karsus lets him use Staffs / Wands as a Wizard = EBL, so a Staff w/ Shapechange or Polymorph could make that happen easily (has to turn off SR, but its doable). Polymorph is way better in this case, since the Binder would keep his Su stuff. I'm operating under the assumption that the Wizard is in the same form, though, so that becomes a wash (although it does seem that the wizard would have a hard time casting spells, since it all goes back to alter self, and the Dire Tortoise doesn't have a language, nor limbs to grasp fine items, so spells would have to be eschewed, silent, and stilled; plus the contingency focus item would meld into the new form "and become nonfunctional"). So, maybe the Wizard and Binder are not both operating under Dire Tortoise form, here... hrm...
#418 phaedrusxy Mar 05, 2009 14:34:05	You always ignore your own SR, including spells from magic items that consider "you" as the caster. Also, as someone pointed out in the BG thread, the wizard (or binder) only needs to be in dire tortoise form at the beginning of his turn. He can then change into something else as a free action and finish his actions. There are other ways to never be flat-footed besides Foresight and being a dire tortoise. You can also be a minotaur, and I think there is also some Dragon Mark in one of the Eberron books that makes you never flat-footed. There is also a feat in the Fiendish Codex 2, but you have to either be a devil, or do a favor for Dispater, the lord of the 2nd layer of Hell. :D
#419 jameswilliamogle Mar 05, 2009 15:32:13	You always ignore your own SR, including spells from magic items that consider "you" as the caster. Also, as someone pointed out in the BG thread, the wizard (or binder) only needs to be in dire tortoise form at the beginning of his turn. He can then change into something else as a free action and finish his actions. There are other ways to never be flat-footed besides Foresight and being a dire tortoise. You can also be a minotaur, and I think there is also some Dragon Mark in one of the Eberron books that makes you never flat-footed. There is also a feat in the Fiendish Codex 2, but you have to either be a devil, or do a favor for Dispater, the lord of the 2nd layer of Hell. :D Cool; how do we beat it?
#420 erhnamdj Mar 05, 2009 17:03:19	You don't use dire tortoise to avoid being flat-footed. That part's easy. You use it for the free surprise round. I'm still not sure what you actually do to hurt the wizard, even if you can get to him. You beat Doctor Strange on initiative (since you're both in dire tortoise form). Okay, now what? He mumbles the name of some ancient magician and one of his Contingencies goes off. You use a Contingency. He mumbles another word. What ever happens?
#421 phaedrusxy Mar 05, 2009 17:50:19	Just throw out Craft Contingent Spell. Or assume they both have 20 (or 40, or whatever the hell the limit is) of them, and they all basically counteract each other. The end. Now what? The wizard has no advantage when it comes to those, because they're magic items, and the binder can have the same number of them, with exactly the same effects, if he's willing to dish out the cash to pay someone to craft them. So I think it's better to just ignore that that feat even exists, for these kinds of thought exercises.
#422 jameswilliamogle Mar 05, 2009 18:56:43	Hrm, good point on that. Personally, I'd rather they stay in, as it sucks up resources from the Wizard (and the Binder, all contingencies out, is more or less equipment independent - I think - I haven't done the math on high-end Wizards in a long time). Using Astaroth, the Binder can make anything the Wizard makes (although it does cost the Binder a bit more - they can't provide spells). EDIT: NM on that; Scribe Scroll and Craft Contingent Spell require the maker to know it to make it, so nix those two.
#423 phaedrusxy Mar 05, 2009 19:52:46	Using Astaroth, the Binder can make anything the Wizard makes (although it does cost the Binder a bit more - they can't provide spells). Not quite. He can't use the feats that have prereqs other that CL, like Craft Construct, but that's a minor quibble.
#424 jameswilliamogle Mar 05, 2009 20:09:11	Not quite. He can't use the feats that have prereqs other that CL, like Craft Construct, but that's a minor quibble. Oh, true that, and Scribe Scroll and Craft Contingent Spell are worthless since the crafter has to know the spell. But they also can make psionic items, which is pretty cool!
#425 jameswilliamogle Mar 07, 2009 11:35:10	OK, this seems like a must-have for binder fans that can use 3rd party material... Over on the Paizo boards I was searching for the "Knight of the Green Lady" PrC, which was mislinked in the first post (actually, it just got archived at some point), and I cam across a discussion about a few .pdfs they are selling over there. Well, I couldn't get a clear idea about the material from the reviews or description, but the title was promising. I figured that since I hadn't purchased a DnD product since 4e came out, nor video games, nor movies, nor anything, I'd give it a shot. Low-and-behold: Secrets of Pact Magic - has over 100 new vestiges, has tons of feats (>30 non-racial feats), specifics of a few races that are inclined to pact-making, new PrCs, new items, more than 300 pages, and only $13. From the portions I've looked through, nothing seems ridiculously broken from it, unlike a lot of 3rd party material. The vestiges are formatted a bit weirdly; there's something called "capstone ability" and "favored enemies", which I have to find out more on, but the other stuff in a normal vestige description is all there. EDIT: Ah, so you gain the Capstone ability when you succeed on your binding check by 10 or more. Villains of Pact Magic - I haven't gone through this yet, but it was only $10, so I'll update when I can.
#426 skrp Mar 07, 2009 15:12:13	You are certainly talking about books from http://www.pactmagic.com/? I know this site, it even has it's own binding intro ;) But their vestiges are a little bit different then vestiges made by WotC. In addition to all weird things pointed by you, these vestiges have also alternative features - when you bind them, you can choose which abilities you prefer. Where did you find "Knight of the Green Lady" PrC? Do you mean "Apostle of the Green Lady"?
#427 jameswilliamogle Mar 07, 2009 17:21:49	You are certainly talking about books from http://www.pactmagic.com/? I know this site, it even has it's own binding intro ;) But their vestiges are a little bit different then vestiges made by WotC. In addition to all weird things pointed by you, these vestiges have also alternative features - when you bind them, you can choose which abilities you prefer. Yup, but mechanically it looks like the same thing (although he had to introduce new base classes since ToM isn't OGL). EDIT: Looking at the errata, he has two ways to combine the two. One option is to treat Spirits / Vestiges as the same, with 100% transparency (Binders from ToM never get the 9th level spirits, but it allows 100% transparency otherwise). The other option is to treat them as different, but he has a feat in there to make them 100% transparent, which is cool. Where did you find "Knight of the Green Lady" PrC? Do you mean "Apostle of the Green Lady"? Yes; my bad.
#428 jameswilliamogle Mar 07, 2009 21:18:51	Well, I got DM approval for this character: Magic in the Blood Phrenic Binder, boo-yah! Melgrim Porter Phrenic Whispergnome Binder (1 LA bought off) xp23541 Abilities Str 13 (-2 racial), Dex 18 (+2 racial), Con 16 (+2 racial), Int 18 (+2 racial), Wis 14 (+2 racial), Cha 22 (+2 racial, +1 level 4, +2 enhancement) BAB +4 Saves: F 8, R 6, W 7 AC: (+1 Size, +4 Dex) Luck Points: 5 Skills <-NOT PICKED YET; THESE ARE JUST RACIAL BONUSES Hide +8, Spot +2, Listen +2, Move Silently +4 Feats Magic in the Blood (Player’s Guide to Faerun), Spirit Imp (Secrets of Pact Magic), Improved Binding (Tome of Magic), Extra Known Ability (Secrets of Pact Magic), Suppress Sign (Tome of Magic) Racial Abilities Small size +1 to hit Kobolds and Goblinoids +4 AC vs Giants 30’ Move Low-light Vision, Darkvision 60’ Power Resistance 10 + HD Racial Spell-Like Abilities (at CL = HD, maximum enhancement possible for “*”) 3 / 3 Silence (self-only) 3 / 3 Ghost Sound 3 / 3 Mage Hand 3 / 3 Message 3 / 3 Defensive Precognition* 3 / 3 Force Screen* 3 / 3 Empty Mind* 3 / 3 Mind Thrust* 3 / 3 Body Adjustment* 3 / 3 Brain Lock* Class Abilities Soulbinding 1 vestige, up to 4th level 2 Pact Augmentations 2 Bonus Feats (picked) Soul Guardian (Immunity to Fear)
#429 toryn Mar 11, 2009 17:56:32	I just recently got this book, but from what I have seen so far, it is awesome! Thanks for this guide.
#430 phaedrusxy Mar 12, 2009 11:06:05	I'm 6th level (but w/ ECL 7 cash, since I bought off 1 LA). 19000 gp. I want a cloak of charisma +2, but then what? Ring of Darkhidden, and a wand of No Light. :D The Anklet of Translocation is also very good for the money.
#431 ImmortalRyuujin Jun 09, 2009 1:34:04	So if someone, starting at 1st level, wanted to primarily follow the path of direct damage what vestige should be chosen as the patron vestige for KotSS? Amon, Balam, Geryon or Orthos? What level should he start taking the prestige class?
#432 brainpiercing Jun 09, 2009 3:51:28	So if someone, starting at 1st level, wanted to primarily follow the path of direct damage what vestige should be chosen as the patron vestige for KotSS? Amon, Balam, Geryon or Orthos? What level should he start taking the prestige class? Might want to consider Andras, too. There was that diary where someone used him to great effect, but he could "buy" additional feats, which may have made a difference.
#433 jameswilliamogle Jun 09, 2009 7:23:24	I like Amon for pure blasting at low level, and Orthos at high. RAW, you should be able to use the metabreath feats with it.
#434 ImmortalRyuujin Jun 09, 2009 16:05:45	Yeah that sounds about right, although Amon seems like it would do some damage at high levels as well. But which would you suggest for the Patron Vestige? And when would you suggest taking KotSS? As soon as it is available to get the armor/weapon proficiencies or once Balam and Geryon are available? Once sixth level vestiges are available? Or around 16th level for Orthos?
#435 jameswilliamogle Jun 09, 2009 16:32:15	I dunno. Depends on yer role, I guess. 1/day reuse a 1/5 ability, I've found, isn't really that great. So, take it for the proficiencies, the DR, the outsider type, and the +Cha to allies 1/5 rounds earlier than 15th. DO NOT forget to use those abilities - they're kick arse. That said, there's three vestiges which I find particularly attractive that could be bound everyday with nothing lost: Chupoclops (etherealness, pounce, secondary attack, debuff aura, always useful) Haures (Mindblank, PK, Major Image, and ability to go wherever you want on a combat map) Zcerryl (Summons, Pseudonatural template - which grants DR, daze attacks, the MINDSIGHT FEAT!!!, strongest vestige out there) The following are decent choices, since you could fit your entire build around them: Paimon (for +dex to damage / hit type builds, and the dance of death is freakin' awesome) Savnok (mainly if tanking) Malphus / Marchovias (focusing on stealth) Naberius (diplomancers only) The following I think are weaker choices, as they are kind of hard to develop an entire build around: Balam (lack of "definition" with this vestige, though it is great) Amon / Orthos (the direct damage is great, but the rest of the abilities don't benefit enough from them; displacement comes in so late it may not be more effective than Otiax) Acerak / Tenebrous / Buer (the Cleric should cover these) Ronove (just pretty mediocre 1/5 abilities, and they aren't universally useful) Otiax (great secondary vestige, but primary patron it kind of stinks)
#436 phaedrusxy Jun 09, 2009 16:48:54	I freakin' love Balam on my Ur-Priest/Anima Mage. I can cover just about everything with my spellcasting that the other vestiges offer (and that I want), but that 1/5 reroll is just awesome. If you have great saves (he has), it basically means you get to reroll the 1s that you fail on. ;) He can't bind Chupoclops yet. Once he can, Balam might have some competition.
#437 Omen_of_Peace Jun 09, 2009 17:22:44	I'll second the recommendation for Chupoclops, my favorite - it has a bunch of very versatile abilities. I've never played with Zceryll but it's obviously strong. Haures is nice, but I'd put him behind those two. When it comes to vestiges, it's always safe to follow jwm's wisdom. :D
#438 jameswilliamogle Jun 09, 2009 18:09:53	I can cover just about everything with my spellcasting that the other vestiges offer... This works great for your build, but for a more Binder-focused build, there has to be other considerations. BTW, have you tried metamagic'd Enervation w/ Leraje yet? Nothing like doing 32 levels of energy drain to two characters standing right next to each other :D.
#439 ImmortalRyuujin Jun 09, 2009 18:23:37	That is insane. So I'm thinking I might just go for Savnok, allowing me to take the prestige class at 6th I think unless I wait until 9th so I will have two seperate vestiges bound, giving me a somewhat decent armor class without needing to buy any magical armor. It does mean that I will always be behind 1 vestige as far as the direct damage combo, and will never be able to bind Amon+Balam+Geryon+Orthos, and when I finally do get dual binding I won't be able to combine Balam and Geryon. I assume Geryon, and Focalor, would also be weak choices?
#440 jameswilliamogle Jun 09, 2009 18:28:15	Yes, that is a good assumption. Focalor is particularly campaign specific - water campaigns, only (it does excel at that, though). Geryon is just subpar - fly speed is just thrown in there for the heck of it. Aiming for this isn't a bad strategy - Amon + Orthos + Balam + Savnok. Also, you might find yourself switching Amon or Orthos for Karsus, for using staves at EBL (for example, Polar Ray), can be wicked good.
#441 redondo15 Jun 30, 2009 13:15:16	On a completely unrelated note, I asked Customer Service something that might seem terribly obvious to some but I felt necessary to get exact information upon... Quote: Originally Posted by Customer Service 04/16/2008 07:37 AM Caelic'sLoveChild, Thank you for contacting us. You would have to a a full five rounds before using it again. In your example, if you use the ability on round 1 you would not be able to use it again until round 7. I hope this helps! Please let me know if you need anymore help! Marc Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada) 425-204-8069 (From all other countries) Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST Quote: Originally Posted by Customer (Caelic'sLoveChild) 04/15/2008 11:41 PM On Page 20 of the Tome of Magic we see one example of a vestige ability that states it may not be used again for 5 rounds. The Binder class is rife with abilities that share this sentence. Just how long are they actually asking you to wait? For example: If you use the ability on Round 1 can you then use it again on Round 6 (five rounds after Round 1), or do you instead use it on Round 7 (five rounds without having used the ability)? ******************** Page Number: 20 Book Name: Tome of Magic Hi, everyone agree with this!? Just for clarification (i'd like to create a Binder for my next D&D session), because sometimes the Tome of Magic says "You can use this power once every 5 rounds" and, other times, it says "Once you have used this ability, you cannot do so again for 5 rounds". And, in my opinion, these two sentences could be interpreted differently.
#442 Slaunyeh Jul 15, 2009 5:51:56	Level 6 Your 6th level feat is to make you better doing whatever party role you are doing the most of. Tenebrous can now allow you to get control of Shadows and Ghouls: time for a special quest to find some o' them shades! They absolutely rock at this level. You can have a spellcaster use Summon Undead 5 to create a Shadow, which then kills a squirrel, that rises as a Shadow, that you can then attempt to Rebuke to control, too. You also are immune to fear, which is nice, but not particularly abusable in and of itself. Regarding the above, does that actually work? My binder just hit level 6 finally (yay!), and I decided to look into commanding a few undead minions. However, the snag far as I can tell is that Shadows have +2 turn resistance. Doesn't that mean you have to be level 10 to command them (they count as HD 5 critters for rebuking)? Or am I completely missing something?
#443 phaedrusxy Jul 15, 2009 11:32:43	Regarding the above, does that actually work? My binder just hit level 6 finally (yay!), and I decided to look into commanding a few undead minions. However, the snag far as I can tell is that Shadows have +2 turn resistance. Doesn't that mean you have to be level 10 to command them (they count as HD 5 critters for rebuking)? Or am I completely missing something? You're not missing anything. There are ways to lower Turn Resistance, but they're rather specific and not something you're likely to just have laying around.
#444 Slaunyeh Jul 19, 2009 5:42:19	You're not missing anything. There are ways to lower Turn Resistance, but they're rather specific and not something you're likely to just have laying around. That's too bad, but thanks for clearing it up!
#445 Slaunyeh Jul 23, 2009 5:24:37	I realize this thread isn't quite as active as it used to be. Still, I only recently got a chance to play my binder for real. So. Thoughts abound! Anyway, I'm slowly but steadily approaching the time where I have to introduce my GM to my favourite vestige: Zceryll. We're not playing a particular high-powered campaign and, to be frank, some of the granted powers of Zceryll are just plain ridiculous. Still, I love the Cthulhu mythos feel, and I really dig her sign. Something to really fuel my character's building paranoia. ;) So, rather than just skipping her, I'm hoping to offer some constructrive fix suggestions to my GM. Alien Form: This is probably one of the main issues. Everything granted by the pseudonatural template is just way too much. I think it needs to be either replaced with something else, nerfed into the ground, or just plain dropped from the list of granted powers. Not quite sure what to do about it yet though. Summon Alien: As has been discussed at length, the issue with Summon Alien isn't so much the combat potential as the out-of-combat potential. To fix this, I'd suggest three changes/clarifications: 1) Only pseudonatural creatures can be summoned. 2) Change the prerequisites of the pseudonatural template to disallow outsiders (and possibly elementals). 3) The pseudonatural template replaces, rather than stacks with, any template of the native creature (so no pseudonatural celestial badgers). I might make chaos beasts an exception to these rules because they're so iconic. That should take care of the excessive number of (unlimited) SLAs at higher level, while still letting you summon tentacle monsters to kill stuff. Telepathy: I've seen some people rave over the Mindblank feat. I've read the description a few times but I'm not sure what the big deal is. I might not see it through the proper optimization glasses though. Am I missing something about it? Ultimately, I want Zceryll to remain a useful 6th level binding, but reducing her granted powers to a level where she's comparable to other vestiges, and not risk giving my GM a stroke. I think the proposed changes to Summon Alien are significant, without being crippling. Does anyone have any feedback on this? Also, wondering what to do about the Alien Form. Might end up just dropping it (four granted powers is pretty baseline) if I can't think of anything apropriate to replace it with.
#446 phaedrusxy Jul 23, 2009 9:50:00	Alien Form: This is probably one of the main issues. Everything granted by the pseudonatural template is just way too much. I think it needs to be either replaced with something else, nerfed into the ground, or just plain dropped from the list of granted powers. Not quite sure what to do about it yet though. This is referring to the pseudonatural template from Complete Arcane (CA), not the epic one (from the SRD and Epic Level Handbook). The CA version is MUCH weaker than the epic version (naturally). I don't see what the big deal is for that one. At the level you get it, it is fairly minor. Telepathy: I've seen some people rave over the Mindblank feat. I've read the description a few times but I'm not sure what the big deal is. I might not see it through the proper optimization glasses though. Am I missing something about it? You mean Mindsight. Mindblank is a spell. Mindsight lets you see through walls (telepathy is not blocked by most things, except lead sheeting, etc), and ignores most forms of "hiding". You'll see why it is so awesome once you start using it. DMs hate it, as practically no one can ever sneak up on you, ever... unless they have a Mindblank, are mindless, etc.
#447 Slaunyeh Jul 23, 2009 10:53:41	This is referring to the pseudonatural template from Complete Arcane (CA), not the epic one (from the SRD and Epic Level Handbook). The CA version is MUCH weaker than the epic version (naturally). I don't see what the big deal is for that one. At the level you get it, it is fairly minor. Right. Complete Arcane. At level 10 it gives you energy resistance 10, damage reduction 5/magic, spell resistance 20, true strike as a swift action once a day, and outsider type. That just seems like a lot to me. You mean Mindsight. Mindblank is a spell. Mindsight lets you see through walls (telepathy is not blocked by most things, except lead sheeting, etc), and ignores most forms of "hiding". You'll see why it is so awesome once you start using it. DMs hate it, as practically no one can ever sneak up on you, ever... unless they have a Mindblank, are mindless, etc. Whoops. Right. Mindsight. And that does sound like a lot. *reads* Oh. "Within range of its telepathy." Yeah, I can see how a GM would hate that. I suppose you could 'fix' it by making it just like blindsense (requiring line of effect) except also foiled by mindblank and such effects. Maybe also lowering the range, but I'm not sure it's such a big issue when you can't see through walls and whatnot.
#448 phaedrusxy Jul 23, 2009 13:56:50	Right. Complete Arcane. At level 10 it gives you energy resistance 10, damage reduction 5/magic, spell resistance 20, true strike as a swift action once a day, and outsider type. That just seems like a lot to me. Hmm... I was thinking she was a higher level vestige, and hence you didn't get that stuff until later. Yeah, that stuff is decent at 10th level, but it's not really overpowering. The unlimited summoning is really the powerhouse part of the vestige. And Mindsight is awesome, too. Both are far better than this template, IMO. Combined, I could see how the whole thing might be a bit overpowered, though. I think making it require Line of Effect is a common "nerf" to Mindsight. I'd suggest trying the vestige out "as-is", and see if it seems like too much. Then nerf it. :P
#449 Slaunyeh Jul 23, 2009 14:39:52	I might try that. Just don't want to give the GM a heart attack. ;)
#450 thorian Jan 13, 2010 15:19:59	bump so we don't lose this
#451 namtroov Apr 11, 2010 10:15:54	Pardon the bump, but I was curious about the Green Lady and I figured this would be a good place to ask.  If I chose Nerveskitter for Gift of Magic, would I still be able to use it normally or would it be different somehow because it would be a supernatural ability?  I'd imagine I'd still be able to use it normally, but some clarification on the issue would be appreciated.
#452 waazraath Apr 11, 2010 15:31:44	As far as i'm aware, supernatural abilities don't have any special rules (on casting time, for example) that would prevent the use Nerveskitter. Why do you doubt if you can use it normally?
#453 namtroov Apr 11, 2010 18:41:03	Just curious about the casting time is all.  Thought perhaps since most binder abilities are standard actions to use unless it mentions otherwise or something, it could affect Nerveskitter's casting time somehow, making it a standard action instead of an immediate action possibly.
#454 Slaunyeh Apr 12, 2010 3:38:31	IMHO, Spells like Nerveskitter, or Feather Fall, should work normally. I wouldn't rule a small subset of 1st level spells useless choices, without any specific mention of it.
#455 namtroov Apr 12, 2010 20:41:08	I thought as much, just wanted to get some other peoples opinions on the matter, thanks.
#456 blackdaggr Aug 31, 2010 8:55:27	Question on Paimon's Dance of Death: You get an attack against every opponent you "move past". Normally this would be against anyone in an adjacent square. But what if (A) you wield a reach weapon (e.g., Spiked Chain), or have reach from other effect (size large, for instance)? Can you attack everyone within 10' of your movement path?
#457 Omen_of_Peace Aug 31, 2010 17:08:11	Sadly, the answer to that is "ask your DM" (or if you're the DM, "make a ruling"), because "moving past" is defined nowhere and can be interpreted both ways. Personally I'd allow it: it's only available once or twice per encounter anyway.
#458 syserr Nov 18, 2010 13:11:50	[Otiax] for 10' reach air blasts touch attacks + Mageslayer feat to automatically cancel defensive casting within threatened reach. Casters can no longer take a 5 foot away from you to cast a spell without interference.
#459 syserr Nov 18, 2010 13:35:54	[Otiax] + [Paimon] to get a 24 Square whirlwind attack (x8 adjacent and x16 at 10 foot range), all touch attacks. Use dance of death, and run 10 feet away from ppl as to not take AoO. Make attacks using dance of death against everyone within 10 feet of your path (which can be much more than if you were only attacking adjacent targets) Add Combat Expertise and Deadly Defense feats for even more damage.
#460 syserr Nov 22, 2010 22:42:13	5[Otiax] + 4[Tenebrous] Req lvl 8 with improved bind feat The flicker shadow mastery Tenebrous grants lets you make an immediate move action teleport, so you could teleport into a good spot to use Otiax's combat reflexes when enemies move and hit them from 10' away with airblasts (you threaten 24 squares) Tenebrous deeper darkness could allow you to hide using the concealment to catch foes with attacks of opportunity they wouldn't have prevoked, and maybe make use of some extra via combat reflexes As mentioned in several above posts, Tenebrous's touch of the void can charge your Otiax air blasts with cold damage At level 8 you could also control eight 1HD undead via Tenebrous's rebuke (if neutral or evil) then have then surround you and use your air blast from behind your undead wall! :D
#461 syserr Nov 22, 2010 23:34:43	I'm starting a binder in what most likely become an undead based, heavy roleplaying campaign. This is my planned build, partially inspired by the exellent material above! Only 4 of 7 (yes 7) players have picked their classes so far: Knight, Cleric, Paladin, Binder (me) The plan is to be a social animal using Naberius to start off. Without expel vestige I think I'll stick to a social role so I can be creative with my actions rather than just have a breath weapon and a charge from summoning Amon etc. I want to try using the 'approach' command to pull an enemy through my allies threatened squares, and of course combat bluffs! Depending on how well our cleric can heal (he's probably going the Touch of Healing / Sacred Healing route for non-spell healing to the max) I might spend some time with Buer while dungeon delving to keep us going all day long As I gain levels and feats I shift into a capable combatant, esp lvl 8 and after once I can have Otiax up all the time (I wonder how his influence will play out with the need to use keys...) Human; Neutral 1-15 Binder, 16-20 Knight of the Sacred Seal (patron vestige Otiax) feats: 1st (level) Combat Expertise 1st (human) Improved Binding 3rd (level) Deadly Defense 4th (binder) Expel Vestige 6th (level) Mageslayer 9th (level) Power Attack (or Improved Initative) 11th (binder) Supernatural Crusader 12th (level) Supernatural Opportunist 15th (level) Weapon Focus (melee touch attack) 18th (level) Improved Critical (melee touch attack) Deadly defense's extra 1d6 while combat expertise is up for +2 dodge AC isn't precision damage so it damages undead and constructs just fine (unlike sneak attack, skirmish, sudden strike and criticals) Mageslayer cancels defensive casting (with Otiax up it affects 24 squares; also prevents adjacent casters from being able to 5foot step away and cast as I posted above), and the penalty from taking the feat doesn't affect your supernatural abilities It has yet to be determined if power attack can be added to Otiax's touch attacks in our game. All it says is you don't add strength bonus, though you do get extra damage from power attack with a two handed weapons which implies strength is a factor. If it cannot, I will likely take improved initative. Supernatural Crusader / Opportunist is to solidify my ability to disrupt. I should be getting good use out of my four 10' reach attacks of opporinity with opprtunist and mageslayer. Weapon focus (to qualify for KotSS) would normally be better eailer but at the moment I'm not sure how the campaign will turn out, I'd rather take the feat right before I take the class (perfect timing really at lvl 15) Improved critical on melee touch attack is borrowed from an above post. Since I'll have Otiax up at all times after lvl 8 pretty much it makes sense to be better with my supernatural weapon
#462 syserr Nov 22, 2010 23:40:30	@page { margin: 0.79in } P { margin-bottom: 0.08in } --> This is my character's history, partially inspired by HP lovecraft :D   Name: Nodem Deitsuro Upbringing: I grew up in a small city who's name matters little now. My father, Nabal, was a scholar and mother, Jera, a nurse. I had two younger sisters, Serena, and Holly. We were raised to respect the church, but not subscribe to it. Father always said the Gods had their place, but there was more in the universe and to keep an open mind. Knowledge was his religion. Father studied all manner of subjects from plants and animals to to noble families to the planes. As the oldest and only son I was encouraged to learn my fathers profession, but growing up I didn't think much of father's studies. The lessons that interested me most were about people; it seemed dull and boring to sit in a candlelit room when you could learn much by traversing the streets and having others feed you information. I couldn't have guessed the true nature of my father's research. I attended a modest school at my parents mandate. Shortly after completing it I was able to secure a position as a librarian at a prestigious library, thanks to my father's connections. Though I was a functional librarian, what really interested me was the people. Scholars and wizards would frequent the library to research various subjects, and I gleaned what I could from them. The right exchange of words, genuine or not, can land you as much knowledge as any tome. Several years passed and I met a woman named Tolia. She was the daughter of a merchant family that had recently moved to the area. We could talk to for hours about anything and everything. A year later we were married, and the next my daughter, Sonia, was born. Life was perfect.   Year of the Half: Sonia was two years old on that summer night that will forever remain burned into my soul. The library was unusually busy when it happened. Being on a ladder re shelving books when the fifteen people dropped dead, I saw most of them fall. Those not affected mostly ran, not wanting to contract whatever hideous affliction they thought the dead had suffered from. The smell of smoke filled the air, as some had been carrying a candles when they fell and several fires busied those that hadn't fled. When the fires were out and there was a quiet moment in the library, the true horroric scope of the event dawned on us as heard outside. The citywide wail of crying and screaming felt tangibly cold. It took me a full minute for me to budge from where I stood. Gathering my resolve I ventured out to a sanity fraying collage of death, anguish and chaos. The once orderly city had transformed into a virtual hell in an instant. Smoke lit with the orange glow of burning buildings filled the night sky, and bodies of every denomination filled the streets. The wailing coming from every direction drowned my thoughts as I raced through the streets home. If I'd been thinking clearly I might have prepared myself. Dread filled my stomach as I returned home ungreeted to the smell of burning bread. Bolting to the kitchen I found my unbearable suspicions confirmed; Tolia and Sonia lay unnaturally sprawled on the floor, their open eyes staring up at me. Words cannot capture it. Holly and my mother were also taken that night. * * * The weeks following the event were filled with grief and fear. It took over a week to remove all the bodies from the streets and houses. The smell was indescribable. Initially there was much debate over what could have caused such a thing to happen. Some cursed the gods, where others prayed to them. News of a curse upon the land and the nature of its origin eventually circulated to the city. The death and carnage was widespread, indiscriminately killing half the worlds population. My father and my other sister had also survived, and we now lived together in our securely fortified house. The law, though not totally absent, was significantly reduced, which didn't go unnoticed. There was looting and rioting at all hours of the day and night and people lived in fear of everything. It was during these dark weeks that Father shared the true nature of his obsessive research. He told of beings of great power outside the planes as they can be understood, their power beyond the reach of even the gods. I became obsessed myself, spending every spare moment reading and re reading dusty old tomes. I discovered that it was possible to draw power from these beings if certain rituals were undergone. Not wanting to risk his family, my father had never performed any; his interest in the vestiges was, until then, an academic one. With the world sinking into darkness however, there was more to gain than to lose. The first time we performed a ritual did not go as expected. He had instructed us that if something were to happen, we were to lock him in the basement til the same time tomorrow. Serena was reluctant to observe, but our enthusiasm towards the endeavor was enough to peak hers as well. We descended into the wooden stairs, massive volumes and candlesticks filling our arms. I remember the feeling of dread and anticipation as our shadows flickered in the candle light. Father traced a sigil one the cold stone floor of the basement with charcoal, and called into the darkness. Several breathless moments passed, and for an instant I doubted the powers my father spoke of. Without warning there was a burst of black smoke emanating from the seal, and a grotesque figure appeared. A black dog with a ram's head and a serpent's tail began shouting foul obscenities at father, but took no notice of Serena or myself. Father was taken back by the hateful stream of curses as much as by the demonic-looking being in front of him. He managed to utter a few words in between the ram-headed wolf's curses, but didn't seem to satisfy the being as it disappeared after one final barrage of insults. I had been watching the manifestation with a fixed, unblinking stare while it has been yelling at father so at first I did not see the cause for Serena's soul-wrenching scream. Instinctively turning my gaze to Serena, I saw her face twisted in horror as she looked upon our father. He had been kneeling away from us before the seal, but now was turning towards the us. On top of the angry glare that sent icicles through my blood were two curled, black horns sprouting from his forehead. I had read about visual signs associated with the vestige rituals, and now saw them before me. My first encounter with 'AMON, the Void Before the Altar' crystallized my will to summon them myself. Father had been able to see plainly in pitch darkness when he voluntarily stayed the night in the basement in case someone had come by and might have seen his demonic appearance. Serena and I also had to put out a fire coming up through the floor when father had belched up a torrent of flames. My father had been right not to dabble with such powerful forces before. When everything was perfect, when Tolia, and Sonia, and Mother, and Holly, and half of the rest of the world were alive and happy. But now, with our deaths hanging over us, I decided that the vestiges were my salvation. We decided that a more secluded environment would be appropriate. Father was not ignorant to the Planes or to demonic entities and knew the vestiges were not dark gods or demons, but those commoners and religious figures lucky enough not to have been slain outright the summer previous we're not so enlightened. Moving to an abandoned cabin in the woods whose previous occupants we gave a modest burial, we began more experimentation into the supernatural.   Year of the Quarter: By the time of the second division, I had contacted half a dozen vestiges. Many of the physical signs that manifested with the binding process made contacting the outside world impossible without risk of immolation at the hands of the remaining religious leadership. Binding with 'NABERIUS, The Grinning Hound' however, made contact not only possible to achieve, but impossible to resist. Naberius gave me a silver tongue and knowledge of things I never learned. Binding with him let me influence others, and take on any form. I started coughing even when not bound should anyone inquire about my gravelly, growling voice. The ever dwindling population of the area adopted a survivalist lifestyle. The few shops that remained open for business had either had limited supplies, or was charging an unreasonable amount for them. Naberius's silver tongue served me well dealing with the lingering remnants of once flourishing populace. The city I once knew was now a ghost town, and there was little joy to be seen it. I learned much that year about the rest of the world talking to the travelers still brave enough to be on the roads.   Year of the Eighth: Another summer solstice culls the population. This year markedly quieter than I can't help but remember the first being. People became numbed to death and loss. A desire to leave the area grew inside of me. I was alone in this desire however, and family connections kept me from pursuing my ambition. I routinely contacted over a dozen vestiges over this year, and learned the wide range of abilities and effects the bindings had. Father's experience with Amon had ruined binding for himself, but he provided a constant to Serena and I as we delved endlessly into the realm of the supernatural.   Year of the Sixteenth: Father was not among the sixteenth of the population left alive this summer. Serena and I decided to travel in search of opportunity, and left our now almost abandoned city behind. Though I was not particular about my company or surroundings having spend many years among scoundrels learning about human nature, she was of a more refined pallet and yearned for previous life. She became settled into a respectable house we bought, and I saw her wanderlust flicker and wane. She began dealing in antiquities, and had much invested in worldly possessions. My concern lie in the intangible however. As rich as the city live could be, it put limits on my research. I couldn't attract attention from the more and more centralized population, and there was only so much knowledge available in one area. With so many watchful eyes, and so much unclaimed knowledge out in the world for the taking, I only remained in the city to ensure Serena's well being.   Year of the Thirty Second: Cultures of rituals and superstitions swept the populace at the dawn of the solstice; some celebrated while some prayed. Despite Serena's bond with 'DAHLVER-NAR, The Tortured One', and her attempt to pass any ill-effect to a heavily intoxicated admirer, she met her unnatural death that summer. Once again the city undertook it's morbid downsizing, but I no longer counted myself among the civilized world. Wanderlust burned in my soul and I no longer had any mortal attachments. The time to achieve my potential had come...
#463 Omen_of_Peace Nov 23, 2010 1:26:13	5[Otiax] + 4[Tenebrous] Req lvl 8 with improved bind feat Deeper darkness to deny foes their dex bonus to AC if they cannot see in darkness and otiax's air blast touch attacks to reduce their AC to 10 give or take Otiax's combat reflexes and Tenebrous deeper darkness, depending on your DM, could alow you to more eaily use your attacks of opportunity since they can not see where they're going or where you are to avoid you Note that Deeper Darkness only creates shadowy illumination (in 3.5E), so your enemy can see just fine. You get concealment so you can try hiding in it though.
#464 syserr Nov 23, 2010 1:39:02	Yeah, I actually just read that a minute ago and corrected it. Too bad, but it's still useful to give your party a 20% miss chance.
#465 syserr Nov 25, 2010 14:45:44	We played our first game after another cleric joined our party (both clerics took the reach spell metamagic feat and are planning on taking divine metamagic for some bizare reason.................) I decided to change from using Combat Expertise and Deadly Defense because I can't benefit from the extra 1d6 or dodge bonus unless I use my action to make a melee attack; a lot of the time I will be readying an action or using a vestige ability. Our group now: Cleric of Morhiem(dwarf) Cleric of Palor (human) Paladin of Tyr (human) Binder (human) Knight (human) I changed my starting feat to Able Learner so I can pick up UMD, Tumble, Spellcraft and eventually one in every knowledge skill for DANTALION's +8 to all knowledges ability. UMD using charisma is beautiful synergy. I have a +3 Int mod so I get a decent amount of skills even with only 2 base (6 per level total with my human trait). I'll keep my social skills respectable which shouldn't be hard since I can't have my CC skills higher than 3 ranks atm, and I can only raise them every other level. I can also bump up spot/listen/etc if I end up with spare points later without paying 2 per point (my wisdom mod is +1 so I'm quite oblivious to danger at the moment). Instead of Deadly Defense at 3rd (which I gained at the end of the session) I took Blind-Fight to be immune to sneak attacks based on concealment and to get a +5 AC (+3 dex which I retain and attack doesn't get +2 for being invisble) against them. Changing those two feats reduces my over all damage output in melee a bit, but it expands my role and gives me some  security. ANDROMALIUS can give me sneak atttack to up my damage if needed;  later TENEBROUS to charge attacks with cold damage. Our campaign is going to be overrun by undead and we have 3 sources of turn undead in the party, so when the times comes to bind TENEBROUS I'm going to choose rebuking. We lack arcane magic so me being able to use scrolls, wands, etc adds a huge amount of utility later on when I can consistantly use them. KARSUS only lets you use spell trigger items (so not scrolls); having the ability to use more magic items improves his abilty that ups their DCs though. It should serve to balance out the vestige choices I make for the day by having scrolls and wands in contingency for when I'm not bound to the appropriate vestige. At lvl 7 when I can get my Spellcraft and UMD to 5 and get +4 on my UMD check to use scrolls from synergy bonuses I'll have a +13 [65% chance of casting 1st level scrolls,  55% chance of casting a 2nd level scrolls (Casterlevel 3)]. You require 5 ranks in certain skills to be able to summon several vestiges. I compared them and it seems like the best way for me to go is 5 Knowledge(Arcane) (for +2 to spellcraft and to satisfy KARSUS and IPOS) and 5 ranks Knowledge(Religion) (for +2 on rebuke checks and to satisfy IPOS and GERYON). 5 ranks in Arcane also lets me use artificer's monicle with Karsus's Senses to identify items for free. Tumble with a longspear (or reach 10' from OTIAX) is amasing during a melee. Tumble 10' back from an adjecent opponent and ready an action to attack any foe who enters a threatened square so either they come at me and I take 2 attacks (readied action plus an attack of opprtunity when they move from 10' away to adjacent) or they don't follow me. I can pull mobs out of flanking positions on my allies by moving 5feet and forcing them to move to follow me (or don't and I'll attack them with impunity). PAIMON can give me a +4 to tumble and whirlwind attack, and with 10' reach I can avoid taking attacks of opprtunity by staying at 10' during dance of death (if I need to focus on being a combatant that day). I plan to use FOCALOR with a longspear and Tumble. If they end up adjacent they take -2 on attack rolls and saves, then I'll nuke them and tumble 10 feet away to make them move through my threatened square to attack me back. The main thing is forcing melee opponents through my 10' reach to provoke an AoO before they can attack me, or to prevent them from attacking me at all by deterrent. FOCALOR's nuke will always do some damage (barring DR) so if I'm not taking any I'll win by attrition. With FOCALOR bound another option is using a heavy shield even while not proficent for the AC bonus and just never attack normally (use a morningstar or normal spear with a -2 penatly for AoO)
#466 syserr Nov 25, 2010 16:22:29	Updated Plan: Human; Neutral 1-15 Binder, 16-20 Knight of the Sacred Seal (patron vestige Orthos or Otiax) feats: 1st (level) Able Learner 1st (human) Improved Binding 3rd (level) Blind-Fight 4th (binder) Expel Vestige 6th (level) Mageslayer 9th (level) Power Attack (or Improved Initative) 11th (binder) Supernatural Crusader 12th (level) Supernatural Opportunist 15th (level) Weapon Focus (melee touch attack) 18th (level) Improved Critical (melee touch attack) Skills(minimums): [* = CC skills; cost one point but keep CC maxes thanks to Able Learner] [X = maxed] 1 Knowledge(Geography)* 1 Knowledge(Nature)* 1 Knowledge(Dungeoneering)* 1 Knowledge(History) 1 Knowledge(Nobility)* 1 Knowledge(Local)* 5 Knowledge(Acrane) (req for KARSUS and IPOS) 1 Knowledge(Planes) 1 Knowledge(Architecture and Engineering)* 5 Knowledge(Religion) (+2 Rebuke checks with TENEBROUS, req for IPOS and GERYON) 4 Intimidate (req for Improved Binding feat) 5 Decipher Script (synergy with UMD scrolls) 5 Spellcraft* (synergy with UMD scrolls) 5 Bluff (synergy with Diplomacy and Intimidate) 5 Sense Motive (synergy with Diplomacy) 5 Diplomacy X Use Magic Device* (synergy deciphering scrolls) X Tumble* (synergy with jump!! ;) )
#467 syserr Nov 27, 2010 16:10:00	FOCALOR + BUER  (nuking and healing) [L8+] This combo is for days you expect to be fighting alot. Rewnewable nukes that don't miss will keep combats on a finite timer and with proper tactics to avoid people dying, Buer lets you heal everyone to full after the battle. You can nuke and heal all day long without slowing down to rest, allowing everyone else to be more conservative with their resources. @L8 with 18 Cha -4d6 Lightning damage, 80 ft range, useable every round, doesn't miss (DC 18 reflex save for 1/2) -Blind can interfere a foe's damage for a turn buying that extra turn waiting for Buer's heal -Fast Healing 1 combined with Aura of Sadness should help to balance out damage taken in melee -Buer's heal (1d8+8) every 6 rounds can support main healers during combat or save them spells after combat topping everyone off to full (the Touch of Healing from CC is awesome but can only heal to 1/2 max HP) -If your foes flee from your relentless lightning attacks you can Track them! ;) The one awkward thing is that the aura of sadness will be affecting friendly targets you are adjacent to while you're healing them. You can always deactivate it but it's awesome so best to try and work around it.
#468 syserr Nov 27, 2010 16:39:46	FOCALOR + TENEBROUS [req L8 with improved binding feat;  L10 without] @L8, 18 Charisma -Control 8 HD worth of undead with Tenebrous and have then screen you and take AoO while you nuke from behind them with Focalor. -Surround somone with commanded undead and blind them! :D -Undead minions not affected by Aura of Sadness (mind-affecting) -Hide check to coneal yourself in deeper darkness and nuke with impunity (no verbal or somatic components on supernatural abilities). -Use the Flicker shadow mystery to teleport into a position to affect many creaures with Aura of Sadness. -Amphibious assaults (you can breathe underwater and undead don't breathe; plus your lightning works just fine underwater, and Tenebrous lets you see in any darkness, ie. dark water)
#469 syserr Nov 27, 2010 19:35:36	DAHLVER-NAR + BUER [req L8] You are a very tough character to bring down with this combo, and you can channel damage at foes without worrying about your own health. Dehlver-nar's Shield Self allows you to share half your damage, while Buer gives you Fast Healing 1 and a 1d8+EBL(max 10) Healing Touch every 6 rounds. This has several applications: You could Shielf self onto a tough ally (in my case the Knight or Paladin) and let them absorb damage you would have taken that you can heal with your touch every 6 rounds. The reason you'd bind it on an ally for this purpose is to have it ready before an encounter. You could definitely try to pass it onto whatever is attacking you, but if it passes it's save you've wasted your action. Apply Shield Self to a weak enemy then ingnore them while going after tougher ones and have the passive damage whittle them down without actions. If you are going to use Shield Self on enemies, they could pass their save and you'd have been better off attacking. Focusing on weak enemies with Shield Self will up the success rate of it sticking so you can move on to better standard actions directed at the real threats. As mentioned in an above post somewhere, you could damage yourself with Shield Self on something that you could not normally deal damage to. For instance if there was a creature with DR 20/magic and no one had a magic weapon, you could put Shield Self on it and hold your hand over a candle, or have the fighter toss you up in the air and land on your head, etc, to deal it half of the damage you are taking that it would not have DR for. Fast Healing and Healing Touch abilities will keep you alive, and laughing afterwards when you're back at full. Granted this would take quite a while for some enemies, (unless you're gung-ho about damaging yourself and have other means of healing) but if no other means is possible or desirable it's an option.
#470 syserr Nov 27, 2010 19:58:31	MALPHAS + ANDOMALIUS [req L8] -Use Invisiblity to deny DEX for their granted Sudden Strike and Sneak Attack abilities -Use Bird to remotely see specific objects on specific people, then use Locate Object ability to track those objects, and thus the people, within 100ft per EBL -Use Sense Trickery through the bird to get the +4 bonus to Sense Motive for purposes of assess opponent, or to guage the intentions of someone by overhearing their conversation with someone else from a safe distance; also Appraise should the need arrise (spot doesn't work through the bird cause it's based on your senses)
#471 syserr Nov 27, 2010 20:12:12	MALPHAS + ZAGAN [req L10 with Improved Binding; L12 without] (Anti-caster)   -Use Invisibility to get up to a caster and grapple him with your +8 (+4 from Zagan's Improved Grapple and likely +4 from being larger) --The initial grapple round damage will inflict Sudden Strike damage (because you grappled from invisibility and they're denied their dex against your touch attack to initiate the grapple; +3d6 damage at lvl 10) as well as your constrict damage, and normal unarmed damage. ---Aversion any one around that could cause a problem while remaining grappled. ----Invisibility comes back up in 5 rounds, just enough time to Grapple, Aversion, Kill and Withdraw
#472 syserr Nov 28, 2010 15:46:25	1st (level) Able Learner 1st (human) Improved Binding 3rd (level) Improved Initative 4th (binder) Expel Vestige 6th (level) Mageslayer 9th (level) Power Attack                              [or Combat Expertise] 11th (binder) Ignore Special Requirements 12th (level) Combat Expertise                     [or Deadly Defense] 15th (level) Weapon Focus (melee touch attack) 18th (level) Deadly Defense                        [or Favoured Vestige ORTHOS] After considering Blind-Fight I realized it won't protect me against being flat-footed from suprise. Since it's effect is less powerful than I had previously thought, I switched it out for Improved Initative which is totally solid. Also, ORTHOS gives you blindsight 30ft which would obsolete Blight-Fight anyway. I have not broached the subject of Power Attack and OTIAX's touch with my DM yet.  I believe it should because the only thing different about a touch attack is that you do not include their Armor, Shield, or Natural Armor bonuses; all other modifiers apply normally. Sacrificing attack bonus that you apply normally to your Air Blasts and adding it to damage with Power Attack is not the same as adding STR bonus to damage(which is what it specifies does not apply); it's more like attack bonus based precision damage. My logic is that a character with 13 str (+1 bonus) but with 20 BAB could do 20 extra damage based on his ability, not strength; and therefore because OTIAX's Air Blast uses your BAB normally, power attack should also work normally. I'm going to wait on Power Attack til the level after I get OTIAX so I'll ask him then. If it does not, I'll move up Combat Expertise to 9th and Deadly Defense to 12th. I can't resist the lure of Combat Expertise and Deadly Defense to add 33% damage to my OTIAX touch attack. Instead of taking it early like I had orginally been toying with, I added them later once I have the ability to summon Otiax and the -2 on attack rolls to qualify for Deadly Defense will mean very little, especially considering they're touch attacks. Combat Expertise will still work fine without OTIAX bound; more defensive as it's intended to be, but I can attack with a -5 for a +5 dodge AC that could save my life while I wait for my abilties to recharge. Ignore Special Requirements will allow me the freedom to switch to any vestige in a pinch without the inconvience of requiring a specific location (ie BUER needs to be done outside; if we're buried underground and we need healing, without the feat we're screwed). It also lets me Combine AMON with with CHUPOCLOPS (and the others who hate AMON for some unknown reason) which could be fun. I won't always be a decent melee combatant until I can bind enough vestiges per day to dedicate a spot for Otiax. Once I become KotSS at L16 I'll have ORTHOS up all the time, and OTIAX up most of the time. If Power Attack is ruled to not function with OTIAX, at L18 I'll take Favoured Vestige (ORTHOS) to up both DCs associated with his Whirlwind Breath ability. I'm required to keep him up to retain my supernatural abilities associated with KotSS, so upping an ability I'll be using constantly, esp since it has 2 seperate checks (Reflex and Fortitude) within it, should be good. Plus I can throw on IPOS and crank the DCs even higher.
#473 syserr Nov 28, 2010 16:16:42	OTIAX + PAIMON + TENEBROUS [L14] -Charge your 10' reach touch attacks from OTIAX with cold damage from TENEBROUS and use PAIMON's Dance of Death (without provoking AoO) or Whirlwind Attack (24 squares) while adding massive cold damage (even more with Deadly Defense and/or Power Attack) -TENEBROUS's Flicker to teleport into a prime location to do your massive Whirlwind Attack just before your turn and teleport out right after your Whirlwind Attack as an immediate action --PAIMON's Uncanny Dodge prevents foes from gaining flanking bonues on you if you can't leave a threatened area, and his +4 Tumble will assist in tactical manuevering to get into/out of position without using Flicker -2 different kinds of 20% miss chances from OTIAX and TENEBROUS, plus +4 Dexterity from PAIMON is good defensive coverage
#474 syserr Nov 28, 2010 20:13:33	ANDOMALIUS + CHUPOCLOPS [req L10 with Improved Binding; L12 without] -Turn on Ethereal Watcher and wait for something to Pounce; charge it flat-footed (suprised) and full it attack with every hit being a Sneak Attack, including your Posion Bite! -Ethereal Watcher and Sense Motive buff to assess opponent -Jester's Mirth an adjacent foe with his -2 penalty to it's save to keep him in place and inactive if it survives the charge -Jester's Mirth a fleeing foe and Pounce once you sufficiently catch up -During combat back off and turn on Ethereal Watcher, then Pounce and have your first attack count as from invisibility and deny them their DEX to cause a Sneak Attack (not 100% sure about this but would make sense since you are appearing out of thin air) -See the Unseen to see ethereal creaures and Ghost Touch to hit them normally -Pounce into a flanking position and tear something up with a devastating full attack (all sneak attacks) Add PAIMION at L14 and you can Pounce suprised foes from Ethereal Watcher and do a Whirlwind Attack on the charge that inflicts Sneak Attack damage Add OTIAX to that at L20 (or use OTIAX / PAIMON / ANDOMALIUS at L14): -10' reach (24 squares) whirlwind attack that inflicts Sneak Attack damage on a charge from Ethereal Watcher's invisiblity, or if you are before your fores on initative and they are flat footed -OTIAX's 10' reach will qualify you for flanking bonuses very easily; Whirlwind Attack and hit all the flanked foes with Sneak Attack -your 10' reach attacks of opportunity will also be inflicting Sneak Attack damage to flanked opponents
#475 The_Crimson_Dawn Nov 29, 2010 12:50:04	Does anybody know where I can get a copy of the epic vestiges?  Everytime I look where they used to be I get nothing.
#476 Omen_of_Peace Dec 01, 2010 8:56:06	Noooooooooo! Damn, I should start saving pages from the website... Tedious, but it will be necessary sooner or later. I hope someone has it. The Wayback Machine only has a version of the page that says "You must sign in to access D&DI content". Grrrrr...
#477 phaedrusxy Dec 01, 2010 9:19:25	Syserr, that is an awesome backstory. Is that "culling" the setting of your campaign world? If so... it sounds like a really fun campaign. I might have to steal that idea and use it myself someday...
#478 syserr Dec 01, 2010 15:50:21	Yeah, here's the story the DM told me that I based my character on: >>> Somewhere in the world before anything happened there was an old mystic woman who lived in the forest. The nearby townsfolk were fearful of her even though she never gaves them cause to be. One late spring day, three children ventured into the forest to play and did not return home that evening. The townsfolk, rushing to conclusions, formed a mob and set upon the old mystic woman. Blindly believing that she had taken the children for her dark magic, the townfolk burned her alive as a witch. However, as the fires began to consume her, she spat a horrible curse on the world. She vowed that every summer soltice, one half of the life on the planet would be snuffed out as retribution for the injustice committed against her; and on the fifth year, "the dead would rise"... Two days later on the afternoon of the summer soltice, the three children emerged from the forest scared and hungry but otherwise unharmed. That evening the curse that culled the life from the planet began... >>> Our campaign is set three and a half years after the first culling (my story has an extra year because I misunderstood the timeline), so only 1/16th of the worlds living things are still alive (including livestock, animals, etc; yet oddly excluding insects as far as anyone can tell). Also, no one has been able to commune with any gods since the curse first began. Until that is, when one of the high priests of the few remaining churched got a message. The message essentially said that "there are dark times ahead, the gods will give what help they can", and was only about 15 seconds long.
#479 The_Crimson_Dawn Dec 02, 2010 3:43:54	Noooooooooo! Damn, I should start saving pages from the website... Tedious, but it will be necessary sooner or later. I hope someone has it. The Wayback Machine only has a version of the page that says "You must sign in to access D&DI content". Grrrrr...  Believe me I am as disappointed as you are.  I am still hoping somebody out there has it.
#480 Endarire Dec 20, 2010 0:52:29	Save for the future!
#481 undech Jan 27, 2011 15:57:42	hi a was wandering if there was a more printer friendly version of the binder class and vestiges anywhere
#482 Girvin777 Apr 08, 2012 20:15:41	Debating about picking up the binder class for a Ranger/Assassin that is a Yuan-ti(pure blood).
#483 jameswilliamogle Apr 17, 2012 21:13:08	That'd be cool.
#484 Girvin777 Apr 18, 2012 8:00:46	Any ideas for the best vestiges to use for this make up?
#485 Omen_of_Peace May 22, 2012 15:58:42	Malphas! You can observe the victim through your bird for death attack (or by turning invisible); you get some more damage via Sudden Strike. At low levels, Leraje is decent if you go ranged. Many others can be useful but it depends on your build, level, ...
#486 Endarire Oct 21, 2012 23:57:48	Save! And smile!  Jesus loves you!
#487 Cotantine Jun 06, 2014 1:59:50	I'm thinking to play a binder in the next campaign. A meleepc wijtch combat reflex and reach weapon. Is it avaible? Any suggestions?
#488 Tempest_Stormwind Jun 06, 2014 11:52:06	Cotantine wrote: