| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| #1kastlefeerDec 19, 2009 16:55:43 | I've been playing a fighter with a small group for a couple months now, it's been plenty challenging :D I'll post an outline of what I got atm ... : Lvl 8 ftr Human Str 18(*20) Dex 16 Con 13 Int 13 Wis 10 Cha 8 *Gauntlets of Ogre Power! Feats: 1 shield specialization - buckler(ph2 p82), improved buckler defence(cw p100), shield ward(ph2 p82) 2 dodge(ph p93) 3 mobility(ph p98) 4 combat expertise(ph p92) 6 weapon focus - guisarme(ph p102), short haft(ph2 p82) 8 improved trip(ph p96) Skills: (these rarely seem to help much, I've crafted no armor and fallen off a couple cliffs too lol) climb+10, craft-armorsmithing+7, +4intimidate, balance+9, jump+12, tumble+9 Saves: Fort+8, Ref+6, Will+3 Equipment: +1 mithril breastplate, +1 guisarme, +1buckler, gauntlets of ogre power, +1 ring of protection, +1 cloak of resistance Some combat stats: +1 guisarme MAB +15/+10 2d4+8 20/x3 10" reach; trip - opposed str check +9 AC 23, 24 w/:dodge +5AC w/:expertise -5 MAB While enlarged: +1 guisarme MAB +15/+10 2d6+10 20/x3 20" reach(?); trip - opposed str check +14 AC 21, AC 22 w/:dodge -1 Ref save -1 missiles +5AC w/:expertise -5 MAB I have planned a feat progression sort of like this: 9 combat reflexes(ph p92) 10 karmic strike (CW p102) retrained to deft opportunist(CAd p106) @lvl 12 12 robilar's gambit(ph2 p82), power attack(ph p98) 14 improved unarmed strike(ph p96) 15 defensive throw(CW p97) 16 overpowering attack(ph2 p45), elusive target(CW p110) 18 blind-fight(ph p89) 20 spring attack(ph p100) Obviously I feel a little loose on some of the feats, I started out quite turtled up for the most part and the biggest problem has been getting attention of the baddies. I have retrained once prior and was using a warhammer then a longspear for the first couple levels. Damage could be better but @ lvl 10 we'll be attacking a lot more perhaps. I'll post house rules here to guide any advice incoming as to what limitations are in place: Character Creation: 4th edition points buy! lol, I did not do this right and I have too much dex. While not optimized it's not something I'm worried about. The dex has been handy at low levels I can retrain it to str eventually(special quest method ph2). 4th ed ability stat accumilation is kinda flexible so ... All that said with retraining of ability scores I should finish off @20 with stats like this: str: 22(28 with belt) dex: 14(20 with gloves) con: 14 int: 14 wis: 10 cha: 10 That doesn't include the stat boosting tomes obviously, am I gonna find this acceptable do you think? Hit Points: max per level (maybe a big phat con can be eased off of). Monsters also benefit from this. Books allowed:
Yeah no ToB, no Complete Champion etc figures ... but still lots of good stuff. ph2 was a recent addition to the list, much rejoicing from me. I won't post all the house rules but here's another interesting thing in particular ... critical hits: Critical Hits Critical hits will now be dealt with as defined by this house-rule. This is firmly based on 4th edition critical hits, with some changes to make it more reasonable to apply to our 3.5 edition game. In general, a critical hit simply deals maximum damage, plus a small amount of extra damage based upon the magical enhancement bonus of the weapon. If the weapon is a "high-crit" weapon (i.e. higher than a x2 critical multiplier), then the extra multipliers turn into extra base weapon damage -- eg for each multiplier above x2, base weapon damage dice are added to the critical hit damage. Critical Hits by Example
To clarify there is no second roll to hit to confirm the critical, it is automatic if the roll is within the range. Damage from str is added once not multiplied or w/e as normal. Oh well I hate rolling twice I can live with this. Ok so now I should get my list of mundane questions rolling! *A guisarme's reach is 20" when my human fighter is enlarged? Where do I find this in the rules, my gamemaster says 15". *Specific book & page entry for some "good" mind blank items? The stun on mind vault scrares me ... *Enchants like keen, weakening, sweeping sound good for my weapon? With those funky crit house rules I think keen will be the first thing I get, weakening seems slighty iffy but it could help trippin' *I should buff up that buckler with straight up +'s to get my shield ward going in all it's wardy glory? *Helm of Battle, str belt and stuff in the near future what else can I do to raise my trip checks? *Some dex gloves to get my AC maxed ... ? *Should I get displacement on my armor? Limited duration worth it for oh sheet moments? *Anklets of translocation best thing till boots o' teleportation? *Javelin of returning, dispelling sound like a good secondary weapon? *I'm stumped on rings beyond ring of protection ... *neck will be natural armor? *wtf, magic items with pounce? Where? Course I'd never tempt fate ... Feats? Note no complete champion or ToB so I didn't bother trying for chargin or that fancy pants lock down heh! With shield ward and mobility and later defesive throw/elusive target I bet spring attack can go. For economy's sake shield ward will take the place of close quarters combat ... Anyways this is a pretty dull thread, but I'll just put it out there and hopefully pick up a few pointers/clarification. I think there are things I've missed, I'm still a big 3.5 noob(yes this build was cribbed from another prominent thread just added a reach weapon to be a dork, albeit a stylish one)! |
| #2aelryinthDec 20, 2009 10:03:31 | Ask your Dm if you are allowed stances from Tome of Nine Swords. You have the essence of a Lockdown build if you can get Thicket of Blades. At the very least, you need to work Stand Still into your build to stop your enemies from moving. If he's letting you have Improved Buckler Defense, he should allow this. |
| #3kastlefeerDec 21, 2009 12:30:28 | Thanks Ael I will consider these things carefully. Sadly books not in the list are anathema with Herr DM, been there done that, many tears hehe no stances manuevers etc etc. I'm iffy on stand still without thicket of blades but it can easily be fit in the build. Probably would be better dc's with more wep spec tho. Maybe round lvl 16 when I get overpowering attack. I'm dissapointed in the no specials suggestion but hitting is indeed key. *Where do I find this shadowstriking enchant?* Dunno bout custom magic items but it sounds neat. Whoah that arrow deflection augment crystal is really nice, my dm loves archers. I will definately be looking at that pounce item! Is intimidating strike worth a go? I'm still looking for ways to make my trip checks bigger. Situational, shaken is a fear effect, duration is nice! intimidate needs buffing now meh. |
| #4aelryinthDec 23, 2009 18:17:17 | Shadowstriking is in the Book of Exalted Deeds? Or Vile Darkness, and also exists online here on the WotC site. Do a site search should turn it up. Get Stand Still much earlier. Most of your enemies do NOT tumble, which means that with reach they'll be provoking AoO's. And then you lock them down. 10+Dmg otherwise dealt is a very nasty reflex save for anyone to have to make. Stand Still is far more effective then attempting to Trip. ===Aelryinth |
| #5kastlefeerDec 24, 2009 11:32:33 | I'll probably end up with transmuting on my weapon at some crazy high level(I fail at search). I'll find a way to get stand still before 12/14 because it's another out against stuff too strong or too big to trip. I'm placing more importance on power attack now too. I have more ac than our smiting pally, he gets ripped up all the time but does some big bombs on demons/devils/undead which we seem neck deep in. I want to get thier attention ... We finished a major adventure and I made some levels! I'll get a big str belt! |
| #6aelryinthDec 24, 2009 19:35:26 | Transmuting has been rewritten to only overcome material based DR, it doesn't actually transform the weapon. It's sure-striking for iron/silver/adamantine, instead of alignment. Shadowstriking overcomes all DR. I personally prefer the Pathfinder ruling that +5 overcomes all DR, too....a good reason to get a straight +5 weapon. ===Aelryinth |
| #7kastlefeerJan 14, 2010 11:30:33 | During the course of play I'm seeing better where stand still can really help(limitations of trip too) I'm gonna get it at lvl 12 which is probably just a couple sessions away at the pace we're setting(just about 11th). Feats: 1 shield specialization - buckler, improved buckler defence, shield ward 2 dodge 3 mobility 4 combat expertise 6 weapon focus - guisarme, short haft 8 improved trip 9 combat reflexes 10 power attack Lvl 12 will look like this, 12 stand still, elusive target Probably get robbie's and deft opportunist shortly after. Getting Heward's Handy Haversack and some prot f/: evil pots, enlarge pots(mage's enlarge wand is running dry hehe) etc :D Got any advice vs sunder(more +'s)? This hurt me real bad ... Bull Rush(from a burly golem) was screwin me too but stand still will pwn that hard. Getting elusive target because a lot of stuff is power attacking now, I wanna get this before sticking my neck out with robbie's,... the mage was throwing displacement on us but the dm likes to have the baddies see through illusions alot! Free trips and nasty tricks vs flankers is nice too. I forgot to mention we use the optional facing rules, so I'm gonna draw AoO's whilst running behind guys lol ... and it will always be good methinks. |
| #8snakeman830Jan 14, 2010 14:39:51 | Transmuting has been rewritten to only overcome material based DR, it doesn't actually transform the weapon. It's sure-striking for iron/silver/adamantine, instead of alignment. Shadowstriking is from Tome of Magic That said, the MIC update made Transmuting better in all ways to Shadowstriking. It's cheaper (+2 instead of +3) and also overcomes damage-type DR (DR/slashing, for example). Otherwise, it works the same. |
| #9aelryinthJan 16, 2010 9:55:42 | During the course of play I'm seeing better where stand still can really help(limitations of trip too) I'm gonna get it at lvl 12 which is probably just a couple sessions away at the pace we're setting(just about 11th). The way Improved Buckler Defense is written does not allow you to wield a weapon in both hands get the AC benefit. Otherwise, you'd have a constant -2 TH penalty for using a Greatsword for 'wielding a weapon in your off hand'. The feat is designed for use by a TWF, not a THF. So, you may want to reconsider what weapon your are wielding...or bite the bullet and go with an animated shield and save the feats. I like how you pointed out the fallacy of 'displacement is better' so often crowed around here. Yes, as you level up, displacement becomes less and less useful. A higher AC, however, keeps going up and up. Mobility helps you with those AoO's, and if your AC is high enough, they are swinging at air, burning their AoO's, and letting your friends tumble into positions. I used to do that with my halfling. Make sure you've got some good defense for Robilar's. Immunity to power attack will help, of course, but Deft Opportunist is the cream here...you can swap your TH bonus for AC bonus to offset your AC penalty! ========= Transmuting + Sure Striking basically = Shadow Striking. total cost is +3. Alignment based DR tends to be the biggest pisser to overcome, and the most common at higher levels. ===Aelryinth |
| #10meyer_william3Jan 16, 2010 11:15:40 | The question I have is ... what else is in the party -- as that will help the discussions ... Also, here is a group of fighter builds I posted. community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... What is it that you want your fighter to do? |
| #11NiteCyperJan 16, 2010 17:10:48 | Short rant: No ToB because it has caused your GM tears? Where are the optimized Wizards/Druids/Clerics in your GM's games? |
| #12kastlefeerJan 16, 2010 20:17:08 | During the course of play I'm seeing better where stand still can really help(limitations of trip too) I'm gonna get it at lvl 12 which is probably just a couple sessions away at the pace we're setting(just about 11th). Not sure why one of our two gamemasters criticised my taking the shield feats alltogether as not giving much benefit? I think we both glossed over IBD perhaps but they have played the character some nights in my absense, I think they don't feel threatened by it in particular. I think it's kind of neat, certainly not RAW but when you read the buckler rules/description I think a case can be made. ... A weak case upon re-reading, the buckler description in the ph is a confusing the hell out of me surely. It appears that I needn't have taken IBD at all to keep the shield bonus at all times. Unsure about other ramifications ... I'd hate to revisit this with the DM but probably have to. |
| #13snakeman830Jan 16, 2010 20:23:05 | Transmuting already takes care of it all, Aelryinth. Alignment, material, and damage-type are all overcome. Only things you're missing are Epic (which requires a +6 or better weapon) and - (which can't be overcome anyway). Thankfully, they don't show up much. |
| #14kastlefeerJan 16, 2010 20:32:29 | The question I have is ... what else is in the party -- as that will help the discussions ... That's a very good question, I've cribbed from other builds posted around here and I'm starting to favor and get a feel for certain things through the course of play in the campaign I'm in. I was going for a battlefield control build with reach, and I wanted to have some extra defence as opposed to more damage feats besides robbie's and overpowering attack. Short rant: No ToB because it has caused your GM tears? Where are the optimized Wizards/Druids/Clerics in your GM's games? I was the one with the tears initially hehe ... Our DM's say that there's no ToB allowed because they don't want to bother to read it. ie- there's enough books atm, more books create problems. I tried to force the issue and found the adjudicators pretty adamant so I lowered my expectations. They allowed for the PH2 shortly thereafter so I was a lot happier. Our sorceror uses metamagic to pump out tons of scorching rays that hit for a lot, until mobs show up with spell protections negating it all lol. Nobody, despite 3 casters and a dispel wand bothers to do it in advance(strangely something I always did in computer games). This sorceror did something like 220 dmg to a shambling mound in like one round once @ lvl 9, I guess he's the optimizer. The dm proceeded to slightly nerf some of the meta magic feats. Our cleric uses lots of weird summons of elementals and demons, some PrC I'm not familiar with fairly useful I guess. <<==== lol, ...Our Palidin smites alot, suffers a bit in a straight fight. Our other priest is always trying to use divination - dubious results so far, and is mostly a healbot otherwise with a few buffs like haste. Our other warrior is a duskblade, who has good defenses and mobility but sometimes has trouble damaging certain things, like stone golems for instance. These are some middle aged folk with a few young ones, high pressure jobs etc limited time commitment ya know. That considered it could be a bit worse. The group is not overtly optimized, class choice is not stressed therefore atm party is wide open for ambushes/traps, maybe getting a bit more flexible though(casters always seem to have tons of options despite build in midling levels, they will start scrying/counter scrying soon I think). I do catch a lot of buffs recently too, so that's a bit of a stereotypical party we have going there. Rogues are a nowhere to be found? Are they bad? Our last Ranger quit, the one before got corrupted by evil and actually hunts the party with a vengeance. Lump me in as not a full on optimizer(this forum has helped alot however), and I choose warrior purely cause it seems like a horror movie experience and would be very challenging. So far the campaign has been just like that heh. My fighter had a devil teleport in front of him, he got bullrushed off a cliff. Through message spell he tells the party, "I knew that would happen!" ... gets reply "don't look down" ... is shot repeatedly with flaming arrows on the way down ... bounces upon landing ... tries to flee ravine ... gets hit with more arrows ... gets hit by unholy bolt ... goes to -60 oops ... true res, they must like me for comic relief hehe ... We knew that we had been scryed upon, took it lightly so figures. I'm not here so much to fully optimize, as to get some exposure to things I missed and to cull things that are plainly bad and further my gamesmanship. Some of my build is directly ripped out of the huge Jack B Nimble 6 to 1(the suggested counter build? hehe) thread or whatever. I always wanted to play some flavor of lockdown, I'm eager to see stand still in action. |
| #15kastlefeerJan 16, 2010 21:41:15 | I think this is what I had recently revised. I'm doubtfull about mage-slayer type stuff without thicket of blades as the 5 ft is too easy. Those feat slots after lvl 16 need some more thought. Alternately I never considered a PrC so if anyone has anything to offer there after lvl 16 ... ;D The DM's hate dips I must warn. Another reason the f20 threads appealed alot to me. 1 shield specialization - buckler(ph2 p82), improved buckler defence(cw p100), shield ward(ph2 p82) 2 dodge(ph p93) 3 mobility(ph p98) 4 combat expertise(ph p92) 6 weapon focus - guisarme(ph p102), short haft(ph2 p82) 8 improved trip(ph p96) 9 combat reflexes(ph p92) 10 power attack(ph p98) --- 12 stand still (xph p51), elusive target(CW p110) 14 deft opportunist(CAd p106) 15 robilar's gambit(ph2 p82) 16 overpowering attack(ph2 p45) 18 blind-fight(ph p89), mage slayer(CAr p81) 20 pierce magical protection (CAr p82) |
| #16tdsaw111Jan 17, 2010 22:10:15 |
Ael, if you are wielding a weapon in BOTH hands, how are you not wielding it in your off hand? By RAW a two handed weapon is wielded with BOTH hands, and indeed must be. Therefore you are wielding it in your off hand. You take no penalty from this as you are not Two Weapon Fighting. By RAW you ARE wielding a weapon in your off hand, it also happens to be wielded in your main hand. IBD certainly works unless you can provide errata that either states it only works with TWF or that you are not wielding a weapon with your off hand while using a two handed weapon. Your insistance of the way the feat is intended is great, but it is not the rules as they are presented. Please I have asked for this missing rules quote from you previously, but you have not provided it. |
| #17meyer_william3Jan 18, 2010 8:00:52 | I think this is what I had recently revised. I'm doubtfull about mage-slayer type stuff without thicket of blades as the 5 ft is too easy. Those feat slots after lvl 16 need some more thought. Alternately I never considered a PrC so if anyone has anything to offer there after lvl 16 ... ;D The DM's hate dips I must warn. Another reason the f20 threads appealed alot to me. Don't use Short Haft ... it blows (you spend a valuable swift action to no longer attack reach people and then spend another swift to be able to again) it is better to use that feat for EWP: Spiked Chain. Since you are already level 9 (or so), don't worry about bucklers -- you will be using an animated shield -- change shield specialization (buckler) to shield specialization (large shield) and remove improved Buckler Defense in exchange for Spring Attack and then trade weapon focus for Whirlwind attack. Reasoning for that, is that if you are not progressing in that chain, a +1 to hit is not terribly impressive compared to the alternatives (in this case, whirlwind). Bracers of Great Reach (swift to activate, increase reach) with a whirlwind reach weapon wielder = fireball template attacks. Since you have Improved Trip, well ... I leave that to you.
|
| #18snakeman830Jan 18, 2010 8:05:47 |
There is no fallacy with Displacement being better. It just is. Unless you pour most of your resources into AC as you level up, you end up getting hit on a 5 or better by monsters (and on a 2 or better by most of them). This can be avoided by pumping AC, but then your offense will be pathetic (and chances are, your saves too). So no, as you level up, AC means less and less unless you really pump it. Displacement means half of the attacks miss, period (acutally a little more since natural 1's still miss). I don't know about you, but I'd much rather only be hit 45% of the time than 95%. |
| #19JarveiyanJan 18, 2010 8:20:51 |
Off hand is a term to represent the opposite hand being used by a two weapon wielding character. you are not 2 handing a weapon you are using your off hand(otherwise whats the point of determining off hand when you are two handing the weapon? |
| #20tdsaw111Jan 18, 2010 14:34:49 | The point is it requires a weapon wielded in your off-hand, which a two handed weapon is. It does not in any way require two weapon fighting. Whether you are using a two handed weapon, no weapon or two weapons, you still have an off hand. Your shield is carried by this off-hand. There is no ruling that states IBD only works with TWF, none at all. If that is the way your group rules it, that is fine, but RAW, IBD works fine with a two handed weapon, since you do have a weapon wielded with your off hand. |
| #21kastlefeerJan 18, 2010 19:08:39 | There are arguments afield! I think the dm has no issue with IBD so it's not a point of contention for my fighter... yet ... I wish I had started with the spiked chain actually, I had thought to try the alternative. Changing up would take a couple levels at this point as per ph2 rules. In the future however I probably would take the chain and fit a few more feats in. Hey I kinda like the idea of whirlwind :D |
| #22phaedrusxyJan 21, 2010 10:37:54 | The point is it requires a weapon wielded in your off-hand, which a two handed weapon is. It does not in any way require two weapon fighting. Whether you are using a two handed weapon, no weapon or two weapons, you still have an off hand. Your shield is carried by this off-hand. There is no ruling that states IBD only works with TWF, none at all. If that is the way your group rules it, that is fine, but RAW, IBD works fine with a two handed weapon, since you do have a weapon wielded with your off hand. /Agree |
| #23aelryinthJan 21, 2010 19:38:40 | You are twisting the english language to say what you want it to say. There is nowhere in the rules that defines a two handed weapon as being weilded in your off hand. Clearly it is being wielded in BOTH hands, and NEITHER is an off hand. Ergo, if you want to press the point, to be in the off hand, you must have a primary hand. NEither exists for a TH weapon. IF you want to declare primary and off hand weapon wielding, then you have to follow the TWF rules...which means you're now swinging a Greatsword at -2, or you're somehow using it in one hand. There, you see? It's extremely easy to not be wielding a weapon in your off hand when you're wielding a weapon in two hands, because you don't have an off hand. Declaring you have an off hand means you are using TWF rules, which covers weapon use in the off hand. Have fun trying to have it both ways...you can't. === Displacement gives 25% miss chance some of the time, 50% miss chance a few rounds a day, and absolutely no benefit at all to an increasing range of foes as your level increases. A Higher AC can come very easily with DISMAL Effects...you can pick up +10 AC for less then the cost of a +5 Deflection Ring. Don't go with the classic 'musthaves' of Nat AC, Deflection, and ENhanced Armor Shield. Add Insight, Sacred, Morale and Luck bonuses to the mix on the cheap. Your AC goes up quickly for much less money...and its all touch AC. Displacement doesn't work on things with blind sight, true seeing, able to see illusions, tremorsense, and can be obviated by simply closing your eyes and using blind-fighting, or Pierce Magical Concealment. Generally speaking, it becomes useful in fewer and fewer fights as you go up in level, whereas the ability to acquire more and more AC only increases, and a high AC is NEVER useless...whereas displacement often is. I'll agree that it's never a bad supplemental effect. But all it's doing is subbing for AC, anywhere from 1 to 10 pts, if you do the math. With a high enough AC, its really not useful...and costs a lot of money. ==Aelryinth |
| #24snakeman830Jan 21, 2010 20:33:30 | Displacement is a 50% miss chance all the time. Yes, Blindsight and True Seeing negate it, but most enemies have niether. Tremorsense and Blindsense only mean the monster knows what square you're in. They still have any miss chances. Yes, closing your eyes makes you ignore that miss chance, now you just have the 50% miss chance from being effectively blind instead. Yes, you can pick up 10 AC for somewhat cheap if your DM allows custom items. Look through the MM to see how many monsters have an attack bonus at the higher levels (17-20) are 35+. Most characters at those levels have an AC in the low 30's, so the attacks hit 75-95% of the time. One spell cuts this in half. Now, let's say you run into a monster with Blindsight. Swap Displacement for Blink and see what happens. They're the same level of spell, so both defenses are available at the same time. |
| #25tytalusJan 22, 2010 7:44:30 | You are twisting the english language to say what you want it to say. Wow, that's a ... unique way to look at things. Grasping at straws, much? This also invalidates your very own point from the Fighter thread (that you can shield bash with a shield wielded with two hands), since RAW says: "You can bash an opponent with a light shield or heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon".
Since all custom items are subject to DM fiat, it's probably better to leave at least those out of the discussion that sane DMs wouldn't allow anyway. Even if you had a point here, it still wouldn't be a "fallacy", as you call it. Fallacy =/= an argument/point/opinion you disagree with. Check here for a reasonable definition of what fallacies are.
That's a very narrow view. And not quite correct: - Seeing (through, I guess) Illusions: which effect are you referring to? Note that "seeing through Illusions" and ignoring spells from the Illusion school is not the same thing. - Tremorsense does squat if you aren't in contact with the ground, and at higher levels you aren't likely to. Also, knowing the location =/= seeing through displacement, i.e., ignoring miss-chances. - Blind Fighting: apparently you are not familiar with the rules, but it clearly doesn't "obviate" displacement. It merely reduces the effective miss chance through the reroll. And closing your eyes does nothing if the target is under the effect of displacement (in fact, it makes things worse as compared to Minor Displacement, since its considered invisible then). Also, it's not just an AC that's 1-10 points higher: if your opponent's to-hit is much higher than your AC (say, if using touch attacks), it can be considerably more than that - and more than you can achieve with bumping your AC alone. Again with the RAW mistakes, Ael - what's going on with you? |
| #26kastlefeerJan 22, 2010 13:49:22 | Not sure this helps much but I'll fire up ToEE today and see if I get the shield bonus after an attack with a two handed axe replete with offhand buckler. *hate that game ... |
| #27aelryinthJan 22, 2010 18:24:12 | You are twisting the english language to say what you want it to say. You obviously don't know how to do math, and so you're trying to misdirect things by making rules errors and blaming them on me? I have to say the ONLY time you might have an argument is if the enemy has a bonus TH 20 points or more higher then your AC score. You specifically quote 'Touch AC', making this increasingly rarer. Anyone who ignores their Touch AC to let this happen deserves what happens to them. ANd pretty much anything that has that high a TH roll is going to have the senses to ignore your displacement effect. Since you can shoot your Touch AC to the moon with the right buffs, this doesn't hold water either. Either it's so rare a situation that you can't compensate for it, or you've just been stupid and thought low AC, High Displacement was going to save you. If the monster can hit you on a 2, then being Displaced is exactly like gaining 9.5 pts of AC, where he'd hit you on a 12...missing half the time. If your AC is such that he hits you on a 10, being Displaced is like him hitting you on a 15...missing half the time. If your AC is such that he hits you on a 15, then being Displaced is like him hitting you on an 18...half the time. And if he has expanded senses, Displacement does absolutely nothing, while your AC is still there. So what you have is a highly variable and situational AC bonus that is useless in more and more situations as you level. A higher and higher AC is pretty much useful in every combat situation as you level. So, get a higher AC useful all the time, as opposed to a variable AC useful some of the time. ===Aelryinth |
| #28snakeman830Jan 22, 2010 18:40:00 | Tremorsense specifically finds location. Knowing where something is and ignoring concealment are two very different things (see Blindsense). Blind-Fight only reduces the miss chance, not negates it. There is no Improved Blind-fight. Both Blind Fight and closing your eyes were your suggestions, Ael, and niether negates it. Most fights don't take place in the air, no, but rare are the fights when everyone is on the ground. The wizard at the very least is flying around as soon as he can, knowing that he can't afford melee. Flight is common at the higher levels, for PC's and monsters alike, so Tremorsense actually isn't that great of a sense. Getting an AC high enough to matter is difficult. Using all those bonuses you keep mentioning requires custom items and thus DM fiat. Displacement and Polymorph require no fiat: they are specifically written to do those things. Displacement is an absolute: half of the attacks will miss. AC has too many variables: your own, the monster's attack bonus, the monster's attack mode, if you were aware or not, the list goes on and on. You can boost your AC high enough that monsters won't hit you regularly, but you sacrificed offensive power to do so. You may survive, but you can't do your job (killing the monster/keeping its attention). |
| #29aelryinthJan 22, 2010 19:11:50 | His argument was that tremorsense allows you to find a square, but tremorsense doesn't do that, blindfighting does. Knowing your exact location IS avoiding concealment, is it not? You think you are hiding in shadows, thus concealed, but I know your exact location? You could be any of a dozen mirror images, but I know your exact location? You think you are appearing somewhere else, but that displaced image doesn't have any weight, and I know your exact location? I.e. tremorsense works just fine. You aren't going to be striking at the air. ANd I'm not saying its all that great. I'm saying it is yet one more thing that ignores Displacement. Blindfighting reduces the miss chance to 25%, which means your 50% miss chance isn't working, and thus is much less valuable. Getting an AC high enough to matter is not difficult at all. You simply have to use the sources that are given you. By rote we default to magic items, but mages and clerics do it all the time with spells granting stacking bonuses, including Polymorph. ANd if we're talking polymorph, then the Skin of the Changer that allows unlimited Polymorph is naturally on the list! You're spending 50k for a 1/day concealment effect. A cost argument just isn't going to hold water here. AC is constant...it doesn't even have to be turned on, which your 50% effect certainly does. Displacement is anything but an absolute...it only works against creatures without expanded senses. And there are more and more of them as you level, cutting its effectiveness down more and more. IMproved Blind Fighting DID exist (3.0, 19 Wis req, etc) but seems to have been replaced by Pierce Magical Concealment. I think I go back too far sometimes. I think it granted something like Blindsight 5'r or so. Been a while. ANd isn't there a Diamond Mind stance that does the same? AC is an absolute...it is exactly the same obstacle to overcome. Displacement works half the time AT BEST...at others, it never works at all. That's variability and unreliability. All those other points affect you regardless of using DIsability or not. And the offense argument is specious, also. We haven't discussed offense at all...just getting a high AC. And there are many, many ways of getting a high AC that still allow excellent offensive ability. Sure, you may not be an uber-charger...but if uber-charging is so powerful, then the only way you should survive your campaign is by having an almighty AC, because the enemy should be uber-charging, too! ===Aelryinth |
| #30aelryinthJan 22, 2010 19:29:12 | Without getting into fancy Dismal Stuff and polymorph effects, I like to use a standard shield-using Fighter as an example of how to get a touch AC without going beyond the limits. First, get the standard Uber SHield. Sure, you have to grow it over time. But, with one feat on Shield Spec, a Heavy +5 Shield/+5 Defending Shield Spikes of Warning, the Shield Ward feat, you've got +13 to your Touch AC. Add an augment stone vs Missiles, and that's +5 vs ranged attacks...including magical ranged attacks. Mithral Full Plate +5, Energized (as per pSionic talent) Applies to touch AC, allows +3 Dex. +13 Touch AC. +3 Dex. Your 'standard' +5 Deflection and Nat AC. +1 AC insight from Ioun Stone. +1 Luck Bonus from Luck stone. I'm sure there's another +1-2 out there in published items. You've got, at high level, a 'walk-around' AC of 51. Your Flat Foot AC is 48. Your anti-ranged attack is 56. Your TOUCH AC is 46. You can fight defensively for +4, you can potentially expertise for +5. So, taking no special precautions or rules loopholes, you can hit 60, and that's without abusing Alter Self/Troglodyte. Compare that to a 50% miss chance you have to turn on, usable 1/day. A Balor with his 28 dex and thus +29 touch attack cannot hit you except on a nat 20, especially at range. No wizard is going to touch you with his +10 BAB with any ranged attack. It takes a +41 attack bonus to hit you HALF the time, without you taking any special precautions. Your average rogue trying to leap out of the shadows and attack you at high level needs a +29 to hit you flat footed with other then a Nat 20...good luck! And we haven't even done the simple group buffs, like Persistent Recitations and the like. Is there stuff that can hit you? Yeah. And for most of that stuff, Displacement isn't going to mean squat. At least with a high AC, they aren't going to Power Attack you, either. =+Aelryinth |
| #31snakeman830Jan 22, 2010 20:33:45 | To which I ask you a question: what does that Fighter do? Answer: he stands around and is tough. That's it. He doesn't threaten the monsters (said Balor would probably just use Insanity), he doesn't stop them from doing whatever they please, he just stands there. That's the problem with relying on AC: you have to put too much into it to make it relevant. (and dragons and the Big T still hit him incredibly regularly) I think you're also getting things confused. You're talking about the Cloak of Major displacement, which I agree, sucks since it's 1/day. I'm talking about the spell, which is a much better deal. If you wanted to compare item to item, I'd use the Ring of Blinking: same 50% miss chance all day and is far harder to negate (reduce, prehaps, but not negate). Oh, and cheaper at that. And actually, with an AC that high, they'll power attack for full because it doesn't reduce their chance to hit and makes the rare hits that much more painful. |
| #32tdsaw111Jan 22, 2010 20:49:22 | Without getting into fancy Dismal Stuff and polymorph effects, I like to use a standard shield-using Fighter as an example of how to get a touch AC without going beyond the limits. Ael, we have been through this. How much are you spending to achieve all of this? What does that leave you for offense? Not enough. I am unfamiliar with the energized enhancement, where is this from? |
| #33JarveiyanJan 22, 2010 22:32:56 | You are twisting the english language to say what you want it to say. This more than likely came from the players handbook where the devs are assuming your also going to be wielding a weapon in your other hand, but want to use your shield for more than just a portable wall. |
| #34aelryinthJan 23, 2010 11:41:50 | To which I ask you a question: what does that Fighter do? You've spent two feats on your shield, and somehow you are now completely inept at offense? What planet did you come from again? Dragons and big T hit everyone reliably. Except they Power Attack everyone else, too. They Power Attack this guy, and they miss. Missing is wasted actions. wasted actions kill. Energized is a psionic feat. It's basically anti-Psionic Weapon. What effect does Displacement have on Insanity? Why, none. So how is this relevant to AC? If you want to talk about save buffing, poor saves, and the like, that's a different topic. I think you're getting confused. We're talking about Displacement, which means an item so it's relevant to ALL CHARACTERS. Oddly enough, the vast majority of classes cannot cast DIsplacement spells, so we have to use what is universally available. I'll agree the Ring of Blinking is a better choice defensively...except you have a chance of misfiring your own attacks because of the random nature of the blinking. I can imagine your spellcasting wizard tossing out his spell, only to have it detonate harmlessly in the ethereal plane as he blinks. Sorry, not going to work out here. In the same vein, taking your AC bonuses from 6 sources instead of just Deflection and Nat AC is considerably cheaper. You were talking about trashing your offensive ability, I think you just did. And if they want to power Attack at full so they can hit me with a Nat 20, I'm totally cool with that. 5% chance of hits means that they'll likely be dead before they ever make contact with me, and if they do hit me, so what? It's going to be nothing like the damage the rest of the party would be taking. ==Aelryinth |
| #35snakeman830Jan 23, 2010 14:39:15 | Energized gives energy resistance, not adding to touch AC. At least, that's the case if you're really talking about the feat Energize Armor. None of your proposed armor bonus applies to Touch AC. That's 5 feats gone (Shield Focus, Shield Ward, Wild Talent, Invest Armor, Energize Armor). Now, you can still pull a decent offense from the feats, but you don't have the equipment to match it. You poured all of your wealth into defense, so the character cannot do anything else. Fighters are more reliant on wealth than feats. My response to the Balor's action was what it would do, not trying to compare defenses. That's another problem with investing so much into AC is that your other defenses are pathetic. Using Displacement (even the cloak) is comparatively cheap, letting you improve your other defenses (like saves) so you aren't completely screwed against anything with options. The "Displacement > AC" argument is talking about the spell, Ael. It always has. Dragons and Big T pretty much always hit your fighter (and can PA for a sizeable number without fear), but anyone under a Displacement spell is missed 50% of the time, regardless of their AC (which may be high enough to provide an even higher miss chance). Blink is my comparison in item form. Yes, it can weaken your offense, but it was miss chance to miss chance from items that I was comparing, not how much they contributed to your offense. Oh wait, Blink partially makes up for that by making your foe flat-footed and giving you a +2 bonus to attacks. |
| #36aelryinthJan 23, 2010 22:50:09 | THe original Energize Armor (3.0) applied as I stated. Looks like they redid the feat. Must not have liked fighters having good touch ac. Which means you have to rely on the enhancement from the MIC which adds your Enhancement bonus to your Touch AC instead. So, Your Touch AC is a measley...40, and 45 against ranged attacks (like, oh, rays). It could be higher if you went with, Say, Mithril breastplate and had a higher Dex bonus. Using the 25k cloak is the equivalent of gaining a +5 AC bonus at best, and has no effect on your saves. You'd be better off spending the money on a save booster. It's a nonesuch argument. The Dragon is going to see through your displacement effect, and the displacement against the tarrasque is no more or less efficient then Improved Invisibility, without the offensive options...which options Blink also nerfs, too. So, if we're talking spells, Displacement loses out anyways. Blink partially making up for it doesn't matter if you blow attacks uselessly. You're effectively GIVING the enemy displacement by using Blink! Losing absolutely 1/4 of your offense for a bonus to hit is not an even exchange, especially for spellcasters. ==Aelryinth |
| #37snakeman830Jan 24, 2010 14:06:26 | Let's say I use the Major Cloak of Displacement with a +5 resistance bonus on saves. Total price: 75k, which is less than you're spending on the shield. What do I have? 50% miss chance, regardless of attack bonus (which means it's far more effective against things like dragons, which DO NOT ignore the miss chance as they do not have Blindsight) and a +5 bonus on all saves. If 50% miss chance = +10 AC like you claim, then I'm even on that front and better in others for less money, and that's one item. With otherwise equal equipment, I have another 22k and change to spend and have a better defense than you do because I'm better protected against other forms of attack in addition to not having garunteed hits on me from high attack bonuses. |
| #38tytalusJan 25, 2010 6:55:12 |
It neither is a strawman (please look up the definition this time!) not does it have nothing to do with the topic at hand: RAW clearly says that you can (only) bash with a weapon when used as an off-hand weapon. If you claim that there are no off-hand weapons when fighting two-handedly, then you can't bash with a shield wielded in two hands. You are invalidating your own point.
Not at all. Custom items are explicitly subject ot DM fiat. And cheesy ones aren't likely to get allowed. And again, an opinion/argument you don't agree with isn't (necessarily) a fallacy. Check the definition this time.
Ok, let me put it more simply for you: you claimed Tremorsense and Blind Fighting overcome concealment. Neither does. In other words, you are presenting the rules wrong (or simply don't understand them), much as in the other fighter thread. There's no misdirection here, just concern - because I believe you used to be familiar with the rules back when.
That's wrong in two ways: if the monster's to-hit bonus is significantly (>18) higher than your AC (not unusual in high-level play), then displacement can add much, much more than that. Even if your AC = (monster's to-hit -18), gaining displacement would be the same as gaining 9 points of AC, not 9.5. Also note that displacement can work even if you loose your dex bonus to AC (blinded, stunned, etc.), or are helpless (dying, unconscious, paralyzed, etc.). In other words, it's useful all the time, even when your AC
Uh, no. Of all the "expanded senses", only blindsight helps. Blindsense, Tremorsense, dark- or low-light vision, etc. don't do anything for you (despite your claims). |