Contingency + "Conj(teleport)" spell Abuse thread - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Contingency + "Conj(teleport)" spell Abuse thread

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
dumah87
Sep 13, 2008 13:08:23 hi guys,
I'd like to discuss with you about this combination of spells.
Everything is started when in my party (I'm a Dm) arrived a friend of mine...he's playing a sorcerer, and given that recently I'm feeling particulary generous, I decided to give him Celerity, Greater....Useless to say that this choiche rendered unbalanced the game, fortunately I realized that he does not posses Uncanny dodge, so I rebalanced a bit the situation :D .
BUT where is the problem...this player is really smart (and shrewd...i'd say even artful :D ) so eh started to use this combo;
I explain :
Sorcerer : I cast contingecy combined with dimensional jumper with this condition "when, everyone, or everything is attackin' me, I teleport away, at least 120 feet".

furthermore, he (the player) every time he cavil about this interpretation and save himself...here you some examples :

Example 1
DM(me :D ) : The Knight is charging you
S : I teleport 120 feeet away
DM : but I didn't hit you, why Contingency starts?
S : I said " "when, everyone, or everything is attackin' me....
DM : I Know WHAT YOU SAID BUT I have to hit you at LEAST, NO?
S : no, I was scary, I teleported myself on safe...
DM : ARGH...

Example 2

DM : the archer attacks you, he fire an arrS: I teleported 120 feet away!
DM : (I'M GETTING BORED!...think think, how can I kill this piece of Sxxt? IDEA!)...ok there's no problem, he see where you teleported yourself, given that he's an elf, he's a ranger, you don't have invisibility, and there's a rule in the Player's hanbook that states : after the first hit, a player can decide, if continue to do all the attacks, or stop the attack, and do the move action (there should be for real!!!)
S : No he fired his arrows too fast to notice where I am, an fire rightly, he fired all the arrows at this point.
DM :

Example 3
DM : the cleric casts Antimagic field and moves in your direction
S : Dimension Door is launched and I teleport 120 feet away.
DM : WADDA FXXK ya doin'??!
S : yes, he's menacing me, I teleport away..
DM : ...(looking with hate)...fxxc u...

Example 4
DM : the archmmage Drow casts Finger of Death, DC 32, throw Fortitude (AHAHAHAH yarr dead AxxHxxe! you have only 10 at fortitude and no protection againt death spell...finally I WON!)
S: (with an insolent smile) i teleport 5 (DM : FIVE, HE SAID FIVE!) feet away from here. I'm safe.
DM : why why WHY YOU ARE SAFE? YOU ARE STILL HERE YOU HAVE TO DIE!
S: (keeping in his face that fxxxxxg smile) I'm no more a Legal target, I'm no more-the-person-who-was-there, I'm another target, you wasted your spell.
And now, is my turn, I cast Celerity, Greater....
DM: .......(heart attack)....

so...so...can you confute his theories???
pleaz help me :D

I apologize if my English language is uncorrect. bye
#2
CantripN
Sep 13, 2008 13:15:45 It works for the Knight example (assuming he can't reach him with the remaining movement), but the Archer can redirect his other arrows, an AMF isn't an attack, and spells aren't an "attack" if they don't use an Attack Roll (...but even if they were, you'd need to get out of the spell's range to avoid being targeted).

In short, remove that spell (EDIT: I mean Celerity/G. Celerity) from existence or make sure the Sorcerer pays for it's use (Dazed for 1 Round). Besides, he can't control when the Contingency goes (you do - the DM), or what EXACTLY it does (120 feet away, yes, but to WHERE?).
#3
dumah87
Sep 13, 2008 13:26:02
...and spells aren't an "attack" if they don't use an Attack Roll (...but even if they were, you'd need to get out of the spell's range to avoid being targetted).
QUOTE]

excuse me, when i said attack, I didn't mean "attack" as a phisical attack, but Every kind of attack such as magic, sword, even a slap :D

should I tell him that this is a TOO General condition to use on contingency?
#4
CantripN
Sep 13, 2008 13:29:24 No, but it can be triggered when YOU see fit. A Pigeon takes a dump on you, a Dog barks at you, or even bumping into a stranger can trigger such a generic Contingency. Remember it's UP TO THE DM to trigger it.

Also note that it only works once. A Kobold can fire an arrow at him, wasting the spell's effect.
#5
dumah87
Sep 13, 2008 13:38:15 yes yes yez Yez YES! I got it!
good bye Sorcerer, the happy days are over. :D

thank you CantripN, you solved the thornyest problem in my game. Ciao!
#6
phaedrusxy
Sep 13, 2008 14:52:08 Also, it only works vs. the first attack, as Cantrip said with the archer, then its spent. So if he's facing multiple enemies, it only works vs. the first one, and he is still flat-footed, as he didn't actually take any actions. The Contingency goes off by itself. He doesn't do anything to make it happen. It is a good trick combo, and I've used it, but it is hardly foolproof.
#7
eldariel
Sep 14, 2008 7:23:12 That said, a Sorcerer should be nigh' immune to physical attacks on those levels anyways. It's nothing special - it's right in the spells. Really, the proper way to use Contingency is to make it trigger "When I say X" - speaking is a Free Action so you can say the command word whenever you're not flat-footed (and once you get Foresight, you'll never be). So don't be too restrictive, but not too allowing either. There's the golden balance between useful Contingency and broken Contingency.

Of course, it's true that things that can be retargeted, such as an arrow volley or Finger of Death are still going to hit him regardless. There's no such thing as "dodging FoD as it's en route" since the effect is instantaneous. And he can dodge one arrow, but the archer can aim the rest of the arrows at his new location (just don't tell him about Wind Wall).

Really though, in high level play, Contingency is an integral part of keeping the fights interesting - otherwise, one misstep is often death. And yea, giving him Celerity is a really bad idea. Celerity in itself isn't so bad, but when combined with Time Stop (spending the dazed turn in Time Stop and having others to act) or stuff that makes you immune to Daze, it becomes even more idiotic than it already is. You should just make him lose the next action and flavour Celerity as "borrowing time from the future". That way, there's no condition and therefore no way to avoid it.

Anyways, it sounds like you're out to kill the player. Don't do that. Challenge him, but don't specifically try to kill him - use story justification for why certain opponents specifically engage the Sorcerer. Toss a Wizard vs. the party and have him take interest in the Sorcerer to measure his arcane power against (believe you me, proper challenges are rare for high level casters). Have them fight a Dragon who smells Dragonblood of the Sorcerer. That way you can send stuff on the party that really challenges the Sorcerer and the others can be there to save him, making the Sorcerer feel reliant on the rest of the party and hopefully have him rely a bit more on the rest of the party for protection instead of just his Contingency.
#8
dumah87
Sep 14, 2008 7:45:23 thank you guys :D I've appreciated your participations in ths thread.

p.s. I didn't tink about Celerity and Time Stop!!!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 dumah87 Sep 13, 2008 13:08:23	hi guys, I'd like to discuss with you about this combination of spells. Everything is started when in my party (I'm a Dm) arrived a friend of mine...he's playing a sorcerer, and given that recently I'm feeling particulary generous, I decided to give him Celerity, Greater....Useless to say that this choiche rendered unbalanced the game, fortunately I realized that he does not posses Uncanny dodge, so I rebalanced a bit the situation :D . BUT where is the problem...this player is really smart (and shrewd...i'd say even artful :D ) so eh started to use this combo; I explain : Sorcerer : I cast contingecy combined with dimensional jumper with this condition "when, everyone, or everything is attackin' me, I teleport away, at least 120 feet". furthermore, he (the player) every time he cavil about this interpretation and save himself...here you some examples : Example 1 DM(me :D ) : The Knight is charging you S : I teleport 120 feeet away DM : but I didn't hit you, why Contingency starts? S : I said " "when, everyone, or everything is attackin' me.... DM : I Know WHAT YOU SAID BUT I have to hit you at LEAST, NO? S : no, I was scary, I teleported myself on safe... DM : ARGH... Example 2 DM : the archer attacks you, he fire an arrS: I teleported 120 feet away! DM : (I'M GETTING BORED!...think think, how can I kill this piece of Sxxt? IDEA!)...ok there's no problem, he see where you teleported yourself, given that he's an elf, he's a ranger, you don't have invisibility, and there's a rule in the Player's hanbook that states : after the first hit, a player can decide, if continue to do all the attacks, or stop the attack, and do the move action (there should be for real!!!) S : No he fired his arrows too fast to notice where I am, an fire rightly, he fired all the arrows at this point. DM : Example 3 DM : the cleric casts Antimagic field and moves in your direction S : Dimension Door is launched and I teleport 120 feet away. DM : WADDA FXXK ya doin'??! S : yes, he's menacing me, I teleport away.. DM : ...(looking with hate)...fxxc u... Example 4 DM : the archmmage Drow casts Finger of Death, DC 32, throw Fortitude (AHAHAHAH yarr dead AxxHxxe! you have only 10 at fortitude and no protection againt death spell...finally I WON!) S: (with an insolent smile) i teleport 5 (DM : FIVE, HE SAID FIVE!) feet away from here. I'm safe. DM : why why WHY YOU ARE SAFE? YOU ARE STILL HERE YOU HAVE TO DIE! S: (keeping in his face that fxxxxxg smile) I'm no more a Legal target, I'm no more-the-person-who-was-there, I'm another target, you wasted your spell. And now, is my turn, I cast Celerity, Greater.... DM: .......(heart attack).... so...so...can you confute his theories??? pleaz help me :D I apologize if my English language is uncorrect. bye
#2 CantripN Sep 13, 2008 13:15:45	It works for the Knight example (assuming he can't reach him with the remaining movement), but the Archer can redirect his other arrows, an AMF isn't an attack, and spells aren't an "attack" if they don't use an Attack Roll (...but even if they were, you'd need to get out of the spell's range to avoid being targeted). In short, remove that spell (EDIT: I mean Celerity/G. Celerity) from existence or make sure the Sorcerer pays for it's use (Dazed for 1 Round). Besides, he can't control when the Contingency goes (you do - the DM), or what EXACTLY it does (120 feet away, yes, but to WHERE?).
#3 dumah87 Sep 13, 2008 13:26:02	...and spells aren't an "attack" if they don't use an Attack Roll (...but even if they were, you'd need to get out of the spell's range to avoid being targetted). QUOTE] excuse me, when i said attack, I didn't mean "attack" as a phisical attack, but Every kind of attack such as magic, sword, even a slap :D should I tell him that this is a TOO General condition to use on contingency?
#4 CantripN Sep 13, 2008 13:29:24	No, but it can be triggered when YOU see fit. A Pigeon takes a dump on you, a Dog barks at you, or even bumping into a stranger can trigger such a generic Contingency. Remember it's UP TO THE DM to trigger it. Also note that it only works once. A Kobold can fire an arrow at him, wasting the spell's effect.
#5 dumah87 Sep 13, 2008 13:38:15	yes yes yez Yez YES! I got it! good bye Sorcerer, the happy days are over. :D thank you CantripN, you solved the thornyest problem in my game. Ciao!
#6 phaedrusxy Sep 13, 2008 14:52:08	Also, it only works vs. the first attack, as Cantrip said with the archer, then its spent. So if he's facing multiple enemies, it only works vs. the first one, and he is still flat-footed, as he didn't actually take any actions. The Contingency goes off by itself. He doesn't do anything to make it happen. It is a good trick combo, and I've used it, but it is hardly foolproof.
#7 eldariel Sep 14, 2008 7:23:12	That said, a Sorcerer should be nigh' immune to physical attacks on those levels anyways. It's nothing special - it's right in the spells. Really, the proper way to use Contingency is to make it trigger "When I say X" - speaking is a Free Action so you can say the command word whenever you're not flat-footed (and once you get Foresight, you'll never be). So don't be too restrictive, but not too allowing either. There's the golden balance between useful Contingency and broken Contingency. Of course, it's true that things that can be retargeted, such as an arrow volley or Finger of Death are still going to hit him regardless. There's no such thing as "dodging FoD as it's en route" since the effect is instantaneous. And he can dodge one arrow, but the archer can aim the rest of the arrows at his new location (just don't tell him about Wind Wall). Really though, in high level play, Contingency is an integral part of keeping the fights interesting - otherwise, one misstep is often death. And yea, giving him Celerity is a really bad idea. Celerity in itself isn't so bad, but when combined with Time Stop (spending the dazed turn in Time Stop and having others to act) or stuff that makes you immune to Daze, it becomes even more idiotic than it already is. You should just make him lose the next action and flavour Celerity as "borrowing time from the future". That way, there's no condition and therefore no way to avoid it. Anyways, it sounds like you're out to kill the player. Don't do that. Challenge him, but don't specifically try to kill him - use story justification for why certain opponents specifically engage the Sorcerer. Toss a Wizard vs. the party and have him take interest in the Sorcerer to measure his arcane power against (believe you me, proper challenges are rare for high level casters). Have them fight a Dragon who smells Dragonblood of the Sorcerer. That way you can send stuff on the party that really challenges the Sorcerer and the others can be there to save him, making the Sorcerer feel reliant on the rest of the party and hopefully have him rely a bit more on the rest of the party for protection instead of just his Contingency.
#8 dumah87 Sep 14, 2008 7:45:23	thank you guys :D I've appreciated your participations in ths thread. p.s. I didn't tink about Celerity and Time Stop!!!