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Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 feagurth Sep 17, 2008 7:05:36	Hello, I'm creating a new character and I have several (rather different) options in mind, all revolving around the various core casters (campaign necessity). At this point, I haven't fleshed out any full builds, because I wanted to see what the CO geniuses think in general (so, my apologies if I sound too vague...) These are the rules: 0. Core 3.5 only + XPH + Races of the Wild, all w/ latest errata 1. Race must be Elf (preferably no subraces) 2. We will start at level 1 and probably go up to 13-14 or so 3. 35 point buy 4. Maximum of 1 PrC allowed (i.e. no Wiz/Div/AM combinations) 5. Must be primary caster or manifester (casters are preferred though...) 6. "Restricted" polymorph (i.e. you have to be very familiar with a form in order to polymorph/shapechange/wild shape into it...). No walking around in planetar form... Concept 1: The summoning druid (vanilla :P) Drd1: Spell Focus (conjuration) Drd3: Augment Summoning Drd6: Natural Spell Drd9 and onwards: open to suggestions ;) Question: I know first hand how powerful druids can be, but how much do you think that the elven -2 hit to Con and the restriction to core books hurts the build? Concept 2: The clerical archer Cleric of Sehanine Moonbow (domains: Knowledge, Travel) Clr1: Point Blank Shot Clr3: Precise Shot Clr6: Rapid Shot Clr9: Quicken Spell Clr12 and onwards: open to suggestions Question: normally, w/o Zen Archery etc, I would pick a melee build for clerics. However, with the hit to Con (less staying time in melee) and the +2 to Dex, is it not perhaps better to go down an archery path? In high levels, bow attack/damage cannot compare to a 2H melee build, but can a melee elf survive until high levels? Concept 3: The controlling wizard Finally, how do you think that these options hold against a wizard build? Say... a diviner (banning enchantment) for the extra spells, perhaps going into Loremaster later, using conjuration spells to control the battlefield. I haven't really thought about this but it sounds like it takes less of a hit than the other CoD builds in "straight" core... Any thoughts? Cheers and thanks in advance Durandal 1707
#2 tshern Sep 17, 2008 7:24:48	Quicken or Extend spell for the Druid and you are set. Going all Druid at those levels is very powerful and you should not be falling behind in power.
#3 mdsummer Sep 17, 2008 7:32:18	In core, a Diviner is a bad choice - once you review the spell options you have under the divination school, you'll probably agree (remember your extra spellslot can only be used for Divination Spells). I'd suggest Conjurer, banning Enchantment & Necromancy, going into Archmage at first opportunity.
#4 tshern Sep 17, 2008 8:27:59	I'd suggest Conjurer, banning Enchantment & Evocation, going into Archmage at first opportunity. Fixed that for you. I still say Druid is the best bet at those levels.
#5 phaedrusxy Sep 17, 2008 10:47:27	Fixed that for you. I still say Druid is the best bet at those levels. In core only, I would be less happy about banning Evocation. It isn't as easy to replace it with Conjuration as it is if you have all the splatbooks. Depending on the party you're in, actually having spells that are good at hurting people might be useful. And... I just like Fireballs, even if they aren't optimal... I usually play a generalist, anyway. I agree that at those levels, druid is definitely stronger in core, even with wildshape limitations. Just make sure you familiarize yourself with the forms you want to use.
#6 pithica Sep 17, 2008 11:21:16	Core only, you can still cast fireball if necessary without Evocation, though, since you still have access to shadow evocation from Illusion. The only spell I don't like losing in Core Evocation is Contingency, but that wouldn't be until late in the game anyway, and I only lose it because my particular DM's don't allow you to autofail against your own illusions. Losing all the good anti/pro undead from Necro as well as the ray spells would suck more than losing the handful of decent evocations in core, I would think. To the OP: In any core only, elf-based game, druid is going to be awesome, even with the restrictions on wildshape. You'll still have the option to Wildshape into most of the good forms (Cats), establishing familiarity by casting Summon Nature's Ally X if your DM decides to be a stickler for it. The -2 to con sucks, but it sucks less for a druid (d8 hit dice) than it does for a Wizard (d4 hit dice), and everyone in your party is going to be having the same problem. But that's just me.
#7 hogarth Sep 17, 2008 11:54:04	I agree that a druid or a wizard (using the Elven Generalist racial levels) would be good. Personally, I'd go with a psion, 'cause I like psions (even if they don't have the same level of usefulness as a druid or wizard).
#8 tshern Sep 17, 2008 12:11:55	In core only, I would be less happy about banning Evocation. It isn't as easy to replace it with Conjuration as it is if you have all the splatbooks. Depending on the party you're in, actually having spells that are good at hurting people might be useful. And... I just like Fireballs, even if they aren't optimal... I usually play a generalist, anyway. Fireballs are awesome, I agree, but optimization-wise, I wouldn't miss anything but Magic missile at low levels and later on Wall of force and Contingency. On the other hand, Necromancy comes with Ray of enfeeblement, False life, Enervation, Fear, Magic jar and such.
#9 carnivore Sep 17, 2008 15:31:05	i agree with hogarth... play a Psion... try this: Elf Shaper Build #1 uses Bow with Psionic Shot(Greater) for ranged support and Shaper powers for Battlefield Control Gray Elf(+2 Dex,+2 Int, -2 Str, -2 Con) Psion (Shaper)15 35pt buy: 10 Str(12- 2 racial) 16 Dex(14 +2 racial) 12 Con(14 -2 Racial) 18 Int(16 +2 racial) 14 Wis(14) 11 Cha(11) all level boosts go to Int(@4th,8th,12th,etc) feats: 1st lvl: Point Blank Shot Psionic Shot(Psion bonus) 3rd lvl: Psicrystal Affinity 5th lvl: Psionic Meditation(Psion bonus) 6th lvl: Precise Shot 9th lvl: Extend Power 10th lvl: Psicrystal Containment(Psion bonus) 12th lvl: Greater Psionic Shot 15th lvl: Twin Power Quicken Power(Psion bonus) Powers: Show 1st level: Astral Construct ............... very useful Minor Creation ................. look here for how to use it Vigor ............................ Temp Hp, to help you survive Grease ......................... Battlefield Control, and other fun uses Entangling Ectoplasm ...... Battlefield Control 2nd level: Crystal Storm ................ Direct Damage, No Save, No SR, can also do Con Damage... very useful Ego Whip ...................... useful even when they make save, they still take Cha Damage Share pain .................... great for self even the rest of the party can benifit Energy Push .................. Battlefield control/Direct Damage... many uses(grease works well with it also).. variable Elemental damage(pick to fit foe) EK: Dimension Swap ....... Tactical mobility, assist party members 3rd level Dispel Psionics .............. Must have always Energy Wall ................. Battlefield Control, Many uses TK thrust .................... Powerful Direct damage... especially when used with Weapons or Alchemical items Touchsight .................. powerful Info gathering 4th level: Empathic Feedback ....... excellent Self Buff, they will kill themselves attacking you Divination ................... Info always good Wall of Ectoplasm ........ Battlefield Control Trace Teleport ............ handy info for later levels 5th level: Hail of Crystals ........... No save/ No SR Major Creation ............ versatile Plane Shift ................. useful movement, even healing if needed True Seeing, Psionic .... additional Info 6th level: Fabricate Greater ............ make large items quickly Disintegrate ................... always useful Temporal Acceleration ..... extra time 7th level: Divert Teleport ............... Tactical, very handy at this level Energy Conversion .......... very efficient use of PP(offense and Defense) Mind Blank, Personal ........ awesome defense 8th level:..... pick one: Bend Reality .................. useful versatility Teleport greater ............ excellent transport True Metabolism ............ handy fast healing and Regeneration if needed
#10 feagurth Sep 18, 2008 7:25:14	Hmmmm... so it would seem that cleric is a bit of a suboptimal choice while the druid doesn't lose as much. And there's still the generalist wizard and the psion to consider... Good, food for thought Thanks all around for the help, I'll go study the builds now Cheers, Durandal 1707
#11 mdsummer Sep 18, 2008 9:19:19	Fixed that for you. I'm not sure. Evocation vs Necromancy at Core only - which Necro spells really render Evocation really bad enough to ban? I need some convincing.:D
#12 pithica Sep 18, 2008 10:05:36	I was about to do a point counterpoint of each level, then I realized how much actual work I have to do at work and gave up before even finishing first level... Some spells I think are worth it. 2nd- Command Undead. If your DM gets careless, at early levels, this spell is game breaking. Can you name any other spell that you can cast at 3rd level that can potentially give you a completely obedient 20HD tank with no save? Even if he doesn't get that careless, if you're creative you can still dominate with just this spell at early levels, get your hands on a Shadow and almost nothing in the Monster Manual can touch you before 10th level. 3rd- Vampiric Touch. And, before someone says it, no, I don't plan on ever actually casting this in combat. It's to put in my BSF's Spellstoring/Bloodstone weapon(s). It's one more nail in the 'but we need a healer' argument's coffin. 4th- Enervation. 1d4 negative levels is severe suckage for the BBEG (or BBGG). 5th- Magic Jar. Broken, just broken. 7th- Wave's of Exhaustion. Stop a charging army with no save. I'll take that. 9th- Energy Drain. Enervation, only better. Nothing else I see really stands out against other spells available in that level or earlier. However, I can only think of 3 or 4 spells from Evo that stand out either. I think honestly, that it would depend entirely on the player, the more I think about it. The way I play casters, I'd rather have Necro at early levels (for command undead and vampiric touch), Evo at high levels (Contingency/Prismatic Spray), and I could go either way in mid levels (unless my DM doesn't know not to let me mem magic jar.)
#13 Senevri Sep 18, 2008 13:26:34	dude... EMPOWERED enervation. Ray of Enfeeblement is also nice, although at 1st i'd more likely keep Color Spray/Sleep/Grease...
#14 tshern Sep 18, 2008 13:50:16	9th- Energy Drain. Enervation, only better. Energy drain is a lot crappier than Enervation actually. I'd rather use, I don't know, a Split ray'ed Enervation as a sixth level spell...
#15 pithica Sep 18, 2008 14:16:23	Split Ray isn't Core. Otherwise, I agree with you. I would personally cast an empowered Enervation before casting Energy Drain. I probably shouldn't have said 'better', and instead said 'more levels'. There aren't many 9th level 'attack' spells I'd use, though, so compared to them, it's the one I would consider using, and the only one I would consider using in Core-only games. (I'd obviously much rather have Shapechange, Gate, or Timestop but I am not usually allowed to cheese either of the first two, and the latter can only be used so many times before the players in the party beat you up for holding up the game with all your extra rounds.) I didn't mention Ray of Enfeeblement, because I thought the argument would go, 'Ray of enfeeblement stands out at 1st level'...'But Magic Missile is better.' or what have you. I personally think the two compare well to one another, and since the argument was about giving up Necro over Evo, I figured I'd only go for spells in which the PH provided Evo with no comparison.
#16 tshern Sep 18, 2008 14:46:51	I think Ray of enfeeblement is better than Magic missile at later levels, but at low levels I agree that Magic missile is superior.
#17 carnivore Sep 18, 2008 15:41:46	heres a try for a Elven Generalist Wizard: Gray Elf(NG) Wizard 10/ Loremaster 10... uses Elven Sub lvl 1,3,5 35pt buy: 10 Str(12- 2 racial) 18 Dex(16 +2 racial) 12 Con(14 -2 Racial) 18 Int(16 +2 racial) 13 Wis(13) 8 Cha(8) Feats: Scribe Scroll(wizard bonus) Rapid Shot(wizard bonus) Extend Spell(wizard bonus) Quicken Spell(Loremaster bonus) 1st lvl: Point Blank Shot 3rd lvl: Precise Shot 6th lvl: Skill Focus (Knowledge(Arcana) 9th lvl: Improved Familiar(PseudoDragon) 12th lvl: Inproved Initiative 15th lvl: Empower Spell :D
#18 tshern Sep 18, 2008 18:19:09	More con, less dex.
#19 Endarire Sep 18, 2008 22:01:37	The argument is mostly wizard versus druid. If you enjoy physical combat more, go druid. If you want to focus on mental stats, go wizard, and 20 base INT if a wizard. Druid is probably more powerful in core because, really, how would you spend your wizard feats? Full price metamagic is expensive and you probably won't get to use it to a great degree. As for the 'familiar' clause for changing shape, ask your DM if a pertinent Knowledge check, like Nature for animals, will count. It's reasonable to assume a character with maxed ranks at a level can change his shape into anything of that type with his HD or less.
#20 mdsummer Sep 19, 2008 3:48:48	I was about to do a point counterpoint of each level, then I realized how much actual work I have to do at work and gave up before even finishing first level... :D If you ask me: Enervation is great. Also happens to be DM specific - a DM introducing BBEG with lackeys make it less attractive - AoE becomes more important. Magic Jar can be easily nerfed through circumstances, which is why I'd avoid it. I agree Vampiric Touch, Command Undead, Waves of Exhaustion are pretty good. Evocation has some utility at hand in Core only. Magic Missile, Floating Disk, Scorching Ray, Shatter, Fireball, Ice Storm, Sending, Prismatic Spray, Contingency. I'd favor Evocation a bit more if it's core only... fortunately I've lobbied for additional spells in the game I'm playing. :P
#21 feagurth Sep 19, 2008 6:43:47	heres a try for a Elven Generalist Wizard: Gray Elf(NG) Wizard 10/ Loremaster 10... uses Elven Sub lvl 1,3,5 [...] Feats: Scribe Scroll(wizard bonus) Rapid Shot(wizard bonus) Extend Spell(wizard bonus) Quicken Spell(Loremaster bonus) 1st lvl: Point Blank Shot 3rd lvl: Precise Shot 6th lvl: Skill Focus (Knowledge(Arcana) 9th lvl: Improved Familiar(PseudoDragon) 12th lvl: Inproved Precise Shot 15th lvl: Empower Spell :D Question (perhaps silly): what is the purpose of all the archery feats? Doesn't the poor BAB and lack of clerical buffs kill the effectiveness of a wizard as an archer? Wouldn't it be better to simply invest in item creation or spell penetration or school focus or...? Thanks again gents
#22 pithica Sep 19, 2008 7:15:42	Evocation has some utility at hand in Core only. Magic Missile, Floating Disk, Scorching Ray, Shatter, Fireball, Ice Storm, Sending, Prismatic Spray, Contingency. For the way I play wizards, the only one of those that stings is Contingency, core only. I don't like losing Floating Disk or Prismatic Spray (or, for that matter, Fireshield) but I have ways to get around/replace either. I haven't used any of the other spells since the first time I played a wizard. But, again, that's just me. I honestly think everyone could go back and forth between the two schools forever and never reach an agreement. Between those two schools, I think it ultimately depends on how you play wizards. Question (perhaps silly): what is the purpose of all the archery feats? Doesn't the poor BAB and lack of clerical buffs kill the effectiveness of a wizard as an archer? Wouldn't it be better to simply invest in item creation or spell penetration or school focus or...? The archery feats are for use with Ray spells. PBS adds +1 to all ray attacks within 30'. Precise Shot and Imp Precise Shot get rid of negatives when firing rays into melee (something you're likely to be doing with a Ray like Ray of Enfeeblement). I think Rapid shot is a pre-req for IPS, but I don't recall.
#23 carnivore Sep 19, 2008 8:06:51	Question (perhaps silly): what is the purpose of all the archery feats? Doesn't the poor BAB and lack of clerical buffs kill the effectiveness of a wizard as an archer? Wouldn't it be better to simply invest in item creation or spell penetration or school focus or...? Thanks again gents what pithica said.... also you will always be useful without any spells(not as great as you might like... but you can still contribute to the party) also i will change it... but Improved precise Shot should be Improved initiative(imp Precise requires BAB +11) :D
#24 carnivore Sep 19, 2008 8:13:19	the Build would be much Better like this: Gray Elf Ranger 2/ Wizard 8/ Eldritch knight 10 BAB +16 9th lvl spells 17th lvl caster Feats: Track(Ranger bonus) Scribe Scroll(wizard bonus) Rapid Shot(Ranger bonus) Weapon Finnesse(wizard bonus) Many Shot(Eldritch knight bonus) 1st lvl: Point Blank Shot 3rd lvl: Precise Shot 6th lvl: Extend Spell 9th lvl: Improved Familiar(PseudoDragon) 12th lvl: Quicken Spell 15th lvl: Improved precise Shot still a primary caster.... much better combat abilities and Skills and Saves and HD,etc... :D
#25 runestar Sep 19, 2008 8:59:08	I will probably specialize as a caster. Being able to know every single spell in the game isn't all that great when you have so few slots to prepare them in anyways. Conjuration is probably your best bet. You can't go wrong with spells like sleep, grease, glitterdust, web and stinking cloud.
#26 feagurth Sep 20, 2008 3:36:33	The archery feats are for use with Ray spells. PBS adds +1 to all ray attacks within 30'. Precise Shot and Imp Precise Shot get rid of negatives when firing rays into melee (something you're likely to be doing with a Ray like Ray of Enfeeblement). I think Rapid shot is a pre-req for IPS, but I don't recall. Hmmm... Question 1: PBS description says that "You get a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 30 feet" (emphasis mine). Similarly, Precise Shot states that "You can shoot or throw ranged weapons at an opponent...". So, does this really apply to rays? Question 2: Do you think that the archery ability offered by going into EK outweighs the loss of 3 caster levels? Cheers, Durandal 1707
#27 shokatsuryou Sep 20, 2008 17:59:57	Question 1: PBS description says that "You get a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 30 feet" (emphasis mine). Similarly, Precise Shot states that "You can shoot or throw ranged weapons at an opponent...". So, does this really apply to rays? Those feats were extended to work with "Weaponlike Spells" like rays in Complete Arcane page 72. The Weaponlike Spells rules are also found in the Rules Compendium, page 132 and 136. However, since you're only using core, you might not be able to use them...

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

feagurth

Sep 17, 2008 7:05:36

Hello,

I'm creating a new character and I have several (rather different) options in mind, all revolving around the various core casters (campaign necessity). At this point, I haven't fleshed out any full builds, because I wanted to see what the CO geniuses think in general (so, my apologies if I sound too vague...)

These are the rules:

0. Core 3.5 only + XPH + Races of the Wild, all w/ latest errata
1. Race must be Elf (preferably no subraces)
2. We will start at level 1 and probably go up to 13-14 or so
3. 35 point buy
4. Maximum of 1 PrC allowed (i.e. no Wiz/Div/AM combinations)
5. Must be primary caster or manifester (casters are preferred though...)
6. "Restricted" polymorph (i.e. you have to be very familiar with a form in order to polymorph/shapechange/wild shape into it...). No walking around in planetar form...

Concept 1: The summoning druid
(vanilla :P)

Drd1: Spell Focus (conjuration)
Drd3: Augment Summoning
Drd6: Natural Spell
Drd9 and onwards: open to suggestions ;)

Question: I know first hand how powerful druids can be, but how much do you think that the elven -2 hit to Con and the restriction to core books hurts the build?

Concept 2: The clerical archer

Cleric of Sehanine Moonbow (domains: Knowledge, Travel)

Clr1: Point Blank Shot
Clr3: Precise Shot
Clr6: Rapid Shot
Clr9: Quicken Spell
Clr12 and onwards: open to suggestions

Question: normally, w/o Zen Archery etc, I would pick a melee build for clerics. However, with the hit to Con (less staying time in melee) and the +2 to Dex, is it not perhaps better to go down an archery path? In high levels, bow attack/damage cannot compare to a 2H melee build, but can a melee elf survive until high levels?

Concept 3: The controlling wizard

Finally, how do you think that these options hold against a wizard build? Say... a diviner (banning enchantment) for the extra spells, perhaps going into Loremaster later, using conjuration spells to control the battlefield. I haven't really thought about this but it sounds like it takes less of a hit than the other CoD builds in "straight" core...

Any thoughts?

Cheers and thanks in advance

Durandal 1707

tshern

Sep 17, 2008 7:24:48

Quicken or Extend spell for the Druid and you are set. Going all Druid at those levels is very powerful and you should not be falling behind in power.

mdsummer

Sep 17, 2008 7:32:18

In core, a Diviner is a bad choice - once you review the spell options you have under the divination school, you'll probably agree (remember your extra spellslot can only be used for Divination Spells).

I'd suggest Conjurer, banning Enchantment & Necromancy, going into Archmage at first opportunity.

tshern

Sep 17, 2008 8:27:59

I'd suggest Conjurer, banning Enchantment & Evocation, going into Archmage at first opportunity.

Fixed that for you.

I still say Druid is the best bet at those levels.

phaedrusxy

Sep 17, 2008 10:47:27

Fixed that for you.

I still say Druid is the best bet at those levels.

In core only, I would be less happy about banning Evocation. It isn't as easy to replace it with Conjuration as it is if you have all the splatbooks. Depending on the party you're in, actually having spells that are good at hurting people might be useful. And... I just like Fireballs, even if they aren't optimal...

I usually play a generalist, anyway.

I agree that at those levels, druid is definitely stronger in core, even with wildshape limitations. Just make sure you familiarize yourself with the forms you want to use.

pithica

Sep 17, 2008 11:21:16

Core only, you can still cast fireball if necessary without Evocation, though, since you still have access to shadow evocation from Illusion. The only spell I don't like losing in Core Evocation is Contingency, but that wouldn't be until late in the game anyway, and I only lose it because my particular DM's don't allow you to autofail against your own illusions.

Losing all the good anti/pro undead from Necro as well as the ray spells would suck more than losing the handful of decent evocations in core, I would think.

To the OP:

In any core only, elf-based game, druid is going to be awesome, even with the restrictions on wildshape. You'll still have the option to Wildshape into most of the good forms (Cats), establishing familiarity by casting Summon Nature's Ally X if your DM decides to be a stickler for it. The -2 to con sucks, but it sucks less for a druid (d8 hit dice) than it does for a Wizard (d4 hit dice), and everyone in your party is going to be having the same problem. But that's just me.

hogarth

Sep 17, 2008 11:54:04

I agree that a druid or a wizard (using the Elven Generalist racial levels) would be good. Personally, I'd go with a psion, 'cause I like psions (even if they don't have the same level of usefulness as a druid or wizard).

tshern

Sep 17, 2008 12:11:55

In core only, I would be less happy about banning Evocation. It isn't as easy to replace it with Conjuration as it is if you have all the splatbooks. Depending on the party you're in, actually having spells that are good at hurting people might be useful. And... I just like Fireballs, even if they aren't optimal... I usually play a generalist, anyway.

Fireballs are awesome, I agree, but optimization-wise, I wouldn't miss anything but Magic missile at low levels and later on Wall of force and Contingency. On the other hand, Necromancy comes with Ray of enfeeblement, False life, Enervation, Fear, Magic jar and such.

carnivore

Sep 17, 2008 15:31:05

i agree with hogarth... play a Psion... try this:

Elf Shaper Build #1
uses Bow with Psionic Shot(Greater) for ranged support and Shaper powers for Battlefield Control

Gray Elf(+2 Dex,+2 Int, -2 Str, -2 Con)

Psion (Shaper)15

35pt buy:

10 Str(12- 2 racial)
16 Dex(14 +2 racial)
12 Con(14 -2 Racial)
18 Int(16 +2 racial)
14 Wis(14)
11 Cha(11)

all level boosts go to Int(@4th,8th,12th,etc)

feats:
1st lvl: Point Blank Shot
Psionic Shot(Psion bonus)
3rd lvl: Psicrystal Affinity
5th lvl: Psionic Meditation(Psion bonus)
6th lvl: Precise Shot
9th lvl: Extend Power
10th lvl: Psicrystal Containment(Psion bonus)
12th lvl: Greater Psionic Shot
15th lvl: Twin Power
Quicken Power(Psion bonus)

Powers:

Show

1st level:
Astral Construct ............... very useful
Minor Creation ................. look here for how to use it
Vigor ............................ Temp Hp, to help you survive
Grease ......................... Battlefield Control, and other fun uses
Entangling Ectoplasm ...... Battlefield Control

2nd level:
Crystal Storm ................ Direct Damage, No Save, No SR, can also do Con Damage... very useful
Ego Whip ...................... useful even when they make save, they still take Cha Damage
Share pain .................... great for self even the rest of the party can benifit
Energy Push .................. Battlefield control/Direct Damage... many uses(grease works well with it also).. variable Elemental damage(pick to fit foe)
EK: Dimension Swap ....... Tactical mobility, assist party members

3rd level
Dispel Psionics .............. Must have always
Energy Wall ................. Battlefield Control, Many uses
TK thrust .................... Powerful Direct damage... especially when used with Weapons or Alchemical items
Touchsight .................. powerful Info gathering

4th level:
Empathic Feedback ....... excellent Self Buff, they will kill themselves attacking you
Divination ................... Info always good
Wall of Ectoplasm ........ Battlefield Control
Trace Teleport ............ handy info for later levels

5th level:
Hail of Crystals ........... No save/ No SR
Major Creation ............ versatile
Plane Shift ................. useful movement, even healing if needed
True Seeing, Psionic .... additional Info

6th level:
Fabricate Greater ............ make large items quickly
Disintegrate ................... always useful
Temporal Acceleration ..... extra time

7th level:
Divert Teleport ............... Tactical, very handy at this level
Energy Conversion .......... very efficient use of PP(offense and Defense)
Mind Blank, Personal ........ awesome defense

8th level:..... pick one:
Bend Reality .................. useful versatility
Teleport greater ............ excellent transport
True Metabolism ............ handy fast healing and Regeneration if needed

#10

feagurth

Sep 18, 2008 7:25:14

Hmmmm... so it would seem that cleric is a bit of a suboptimal choice while the druid doesn't lose as much. And there's still the generalist wizard and the psion to consider...

Good, food for thought

Thanks all around for the help, I'll go study the builds now

Cheers,

Durandal 1707

#11

mdsummer

Sep 18, 2008 9:19:19

Fixed that for you.

I'm not sure. Evocation vs Necromancy at Core only - which Necro spells really render Evocation really bad enough to ban?

I need some convincing.:D

#12

pithica

Sep 18, 2008 10:05:36

I was about to do a point counterpoint of each level, then I realized how much actual work I have to do at work and gave up before even finishing first level...

Some spells I think are worth it.

2nd- Command Undead. If your DM gets careless, at early levels, this spell is game breaking. Can you name any other spell that you can cast at 3rd level that can potentially give you a completely obedient 20HD tank with no save? Even if he doesn't get that careless, if you're creative you can still dominate with just this spell at early levels, get your hands on a Shadow and almost nothing in the Monster Manual can touch you before 10th level.

3rd- Vampiric Touch. And, before someone says it, no, I don't plan on ever actually casting this in combat. It's to put in my BSF's Spellstoring/Bloodstone weapon(s). It's one more nail in the 'but we need a healer' argument's coffin.

4th- Enervation. 1d4 negative levels is severe suckage for the BBEG (or BBGG).

5th- Magic Jar. Broken, just broken.

7th- Wave's of Exhaustion. Stop a charging army with no save. I'll take that.

9th- Energy Drain. Enervation, only better.

Nothing else I see really stands out against other spells available in that level or earlier. However, I can only think of 3 or 4 spells from Evo that stand out either. I think honestly, that it would depend entirely on the player, the more I think about it. The way *I* play casters, I'd rather have Necro at early levels (for command undead and vampiric touch), Evo at high levels (Contingency/Prismatic Spray), and I could go either way in mid levels (unless my DM doesn't know not to let me mem magic jar.)

#13

Senevri

Sep 18, 2008 13:26:34

dude... EMPOWERED enervation.

Ray of Enfeeblement is also nice, although at 1st i'd more likely keep Color Spray/Sleep/Grease...

#14

tshern

Sep 18, 2008 13:50:16

9th- Energy Drain. Enervation, only better.

Energy drain is a lot crappier than Enervation actually. I'd rather use, I don't know, a Split ray'ed Enervation as a sixth level spell...

#15

pithica

Sep 18, 2008 14:16:23

Split Ray isn't Core. Otherwise, I agree with you. I would personally cast an empowered Enervation before casting Energy Drain. I probably shouldn't have said 'better', and instead said 'more levels'. There aren't many 9th level 'attack' spells I'd use, though, so compared to them, it's the one I would consider using, and the only one I would consider using in Core-only games. (I'd obviously much rather have Shapechange, Gate, or Timestop but I am not usually allowed to cheese either of the first two, and the latter can only be used so many times before the players in the party beat you up for holding up the game with all your extra rounds.)

I didn't mention Ray of Enfeeblement, because I thought the argument would go, 'Ray of enfeeblement stands out at 1st level'...'But Magic Missile is better.' or what have you. I personally think the two compare well to one another, and since the argument was about giving up Necro over Evo, I figured I'd only go for spells in which the PH provided Evo with no comparison.

#16

tshern

Sep 18, 2008 14:46:51

I think Ray of enfeeblement is better than Magic missile at later levels, but at low levels I agree that Magic missile is superior.

#17

carnivore

Sep 18, 2008 15:41:46

heres a try for a Elven Generalist Wizard:

Gray Elf(NG)

Wizard 10/ Loremaster 10... uses Elven Sub lvl 1,3,5

35pt buy:

10 Str(12- 2 racial)
18 Dex(16 +2 racial)
12 Con(14 -2 Racial)
18 Int(16 +2 racial)
13 Wis(13)
8 Cha(8)

Feats:
Scribe Scroll(wizard bonus)
Rapid Shot(wizard bonus)
Extend Spell(wizard bonus)
Quicken Spell(Loremaster bonus)
1st lvl: Point Blank Shot
3rd lvl: Precise Shot
6th lvl: Skill Focus (Knowledge(Arcana)
9th lvl: Improved Familiar(PseudoDragon)
12th lvl: Inproved Initiative
15th lvl: Empower Spell

:D

#18

tshern

Sep 18, 2008 18:19:09

More con, less dex.

#19

Endarire

Sep 18, 2008 22:01:37

The argument is mostly wizard versus druid. If you enjoy physical combat more, go druid. If you want to focus on mental stats, go wizard, and 20 base INT if a wizard. Druid is probably more powerful in core because, really, how would you spend your wizard feats? Full price metamagic is expensive and you probably won't get to use it to a great degree.

As for the 'familiar' clause for changing shape, ask your DM if a pertinent Knowledge check, like Nature for animals, will count. It's reasonable to assume a character with maxed ranks at a level can change his shape into anything of that type with his HD or less.

#20

mdsummer

Sep 19, 2008 3:48:48

I was about to do a point counterpoint of each level, then I realized how much actual work I have to do at work and gave up before even finishing first level...

:D

If you ask me: Enervation is great. Also happens to be DM specific - a DM introducing BBEG with lackeys make it less attractive - AoE becomes more important. Magic Jar can be easily nerfed through circumstances, which is why I'd avoid it.

I agree Vampiric Touch, Command Undead, Waves of Exhaustion are pretty good.

Evocation has some utility at hand in Core only.
Magic Missile, Floating Disk, Scorching Ray, Shatter, Fireball, Ice Storm, Sending, Prismatic Spray, Contingency.

I'd favor Evocation a bit more if it's core only... fortunately I've lobbied for additional spells in the game I'm playing. :P

#21

feagurth

Sep 19, 2008 6:43:47

heres a try for a Elven Generalist Wizard:

Gray Elf(NG)

Wizard 10/ Loremaster 10... uses Elven Sub lvl 1,3,5

[...]

Feats:
Scribe Scroll(wizard bonus)
Rapid Shot(wizard bonus)
Extend Spell(wizard bonus)
Quicken Spell(Loremaster bonus)
1st lvl: Point Blank Shot
3rd lvl: Precise Shot
6th lvl: Skill Focus (Knowledge(Arcana)
9th lvl: Improved Familiar(PseudoDragon)
12th lvl: Inproved Precise Shot
15th lvl: Empower Spell

:D

Question (perhaps silly): what is the purpose of all the archery feats? Doesn't the poor BAB and lack of clerical buffs kill the effectiveness of a wizard as an archer? Wouldn't it be better to simply invest in item creation or spell penetration or school focus or...?

Thanks again gents

#22

pithica

Sep 19, 2008 7:15:42

Evocation has some utility at hand in Core only.
Magic Missile, Floating Disk, Scorching Ray, Shatter, Fireball, Ice Storm, Sending, Prismatic Spray, Contingency.

For the way I play wizards, the only one of those that stings is Contingency, core only. I don't like losing Floating Disk or Prismatic Spray (or, for that matter, Fireshield) but I have ways to get around/replace either. I haven't used any of the other spells since the first time I played a wizard.

But, again, that's just me. I honestly think everyone could go back and forth between the two schools forever and never reach an agreement. Between those two schools, I think it ultimately depends on how you play wizards.

Question (perhaps silly): what is the purpose of all the archery feats? Doesn't the poor BAB and lack of clerical buffs kill the effectiveness of a wizard as an archer? Wouldn't it be better to simply invest in item creation or spell penetration or school focus or...?

The archery feats are for use with Ray spells. PBS adds +1 to all ray attacks within 30'. Precise Shot and Imp Precise Shot get rid of negatives when firing rays into melee (something you're likely to be doing with a Ray like Ray of Enfeeblement). I think Rapid shot is a pre-req for IPS, but I don't recall.

#23

carnivore

Sep 19, 2008 8:06:51

Question (perhaps silly): what is the purpose of all the archery feats? Doesn't the poor BAB and lack of clerical buffs kill the effectiveness of a wizard as an archer? Wouldn't it be better to simply invest in item creation or spell penetration or school focus or...?

Thanks again gents

what pithica said.... also you will always be useful without any spells(not as great as you might like... but you can still contribute to the party)

also i will change it... but Improved precise Shot should be Improved initiative(imp Precise requires BAB +11)

:D

#24

carnivore

Sep 19, 2008 8:13:19

the Build would be much Better like this:

Gray Elf
Ranger 2/ Wizard 8/ Eldritch knight 10

BAB +16
9th lvl spells
17th lvl caster

Feats:
Track(Ranger bonus)
Scribe Scroll(wizard bonus)
Rapid Shot(Ranger bonus)
Weapon Finnesse(wizard bonus)
Many Shot(Eldritch knight bonus)
1st lvl: Point Blank Shot
3rd lvl: Precise Shot
6th lvl: Extend Spell
9th lvl: Improved Familiar(PseudoDragon)
12th lvl: Quicken Spell
15th lvl: Improved precise Shot

still a primary caster.... much better combat abilities and Skills and Saves and HD,etc...

:D

#25

runestar

Sep 19, 2008 8:59:08

I will probably specialize as a caster. Being able to know every single spell in the game isn't all that great when you have so few slots to prepare them in anyways.

Conjuration is probably your best bet. You can't go wrong with spells like sleep, grease, glitterdust, web and stinking cloud.

#26

feagurth

Sep 20, 2008 3:36:33

The archery feats are for use with Ray spells. PBS adds +1 to all ray attacks within 30'. Precise Shot and Imp Precise Shot get rid of negatives when firing rays into melee (something you're likely to be doing with a Ray like Ray of Enfeeblement). I think Rapid shot is a pre-req for IPS, but I don't recall.

Hmmm...

Question 1: PBS description says that "You get a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 30 feet" (emphasis mine). Similarly, Precise Shot states that "You can shoot or throw ranged weapons at an opponent...". So, does this really apply to rays?

Question 2: Do you think that the archery ability offered by going into EK outweighs the loss of 3 caster levels?

Cheers,

Durandal 1707

#27

shokatsuryou

Sep 20, 2008 17:59:57

Question 1: PBS description says that "You get a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 30 feet" (emphasis mine). Similarly, Precise Shot states that "You can shoot or throw ranged weapons at an opponent...". So, does this really apply to rays?

Those feats were extended to work with "Weaponlike Spells" like rays in Complete Arcane page 72. The Weaponlike Spells rules are also found in the Rules Compendium, page 132 and 136.

However, since you're only using core, you might not be able to use them...