36 point buy, play begins at ECL 3. Half-orc monk (lawful a must, good or evil depends on choices.), so my dump stats are conveniently Int and Cha. Still not sure on the best stat builds for a monk, though the boards have been helpful. Str and Wis seem the obvious choices, though I'm not sure how high to put Dex and Con. I'm considering going Monk 1/Half-Orc Paragon 2 for rage, continuing with paragon 3, leveling to monk 3, then entering the Psionic Fist PrC. I'm fairly certain that racial paragon classes do not conflict with Monk leveling, but if they do, I'll have to go Paragon 3 before going monk. Alternately, I could forego the Psionic Fist PrC entirely (its only good for bumping monk related abilities and gaining minor psionics) and take Psychic Warrior levels (likely at the expense of 1/2 Orc Paragon) and take Elocator and/or Slayer levels. This would bump my PsyWar powers, and generally be pretty cool for a Core only monk. This build would likely be a spring attacking stunner, and buffer/tripper/grappler.
I'm also considering making the character a Lycanthrope, either natural (+3 LA, available at character creation) or questing to gain the Afflicted Template (+2 LA, can only be attained in-game via quests). In all likelihood, I would take the Werebear option, since they're the only Lawful choice, and they make phenomenal grapplers. How should I go about this option? Should I quest for this before or after taking Psionic Fist levels? Is the LA even worth it?
Thanks. I welcome your suggestions.
Alignment
Any. Noble creatures such as bears, eagles, and lions tend to produce good-aligned lycanthropes. Sinister creatures such as rats, snakes, and wolves tend to produce evil-aligned lycanthropes. This is a reflection of how these animals are perceived, not any innate quality of the animal itself, so the alignment of the animal form can be arbitrarily assigned.
I like the weretiger for a monk, pounce and improved natural attack (bite) and (claws)
monk11/tiger6
Does this apply to Afflicted Lycanthropes as well?
Yes.
So this will make a +3 LA effectively +4 ECL or the +2 a +3 ECL? Would it be worth it, or would I lag too far behind. +16 Str is pretty werebearlicious...
It's worse than that. Werebears have 6 racial hit dice (animal type). So your ECL increases by 8 if you get inflicted by a werebear. A werebear monk 1 is ECL 9, with 1 monk level, 6 animal hit dice, and a +2 LA.
It's worse than that. Werebears have 6 racial hit dice (animal type). So your ECL increases by 8 if you get inflicted by a werebear. A werebear monk 1 is ECL 9, with 1 monk level, 6 animal hit dice, and a +2 LA.
Ok, so scratch the lycanthrope option, obviously. My main concern with the build is qualifying for Elocator/Slayer. 1/2 Orc Paragon 3/Monk 3 is easy entry into Psionic Fist, at the appropriate ECL. However, on examining Psionic Fist more thoroughly, its a mediocre PrC. Elocator/Slayer is much better, but qualification is way worse. Both require an effective +4 BAB (Elocator says only +3 in its description, but also requires Spring Attack, which demands +4) and enhance your manifesting class, which encourages taking Psion/PsyWar levels. Sadly, Psion is 1/2 BAB and PsyWar is 3/4, which means that there isn't a good combination of those classes with monk levels to allow entry into either class after 5th level (Monk2/PsyWar 3 or vice versa yields only +3 BAB). Any suggestions? Fighter levels don't really work (Monk2/PsyWar1/Fighter2) either.
Basically the choice boils down to delaying entry into Elocator/Slayer by one level (on par with Psionic Fist entry) or just going 1/2Orc Paragon/Monk. Any suggestions?
Sub-question: I have minimal familiarity with psionics. Any suggested powers? I've been glancing at the CharOp boards, but there's a lot to take in.
if so.... be a Desert Half orc
http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedEnvironmentalVariants.html#desert-half-orcs
:D
@PhaedrusXY: I do like some of the Warmind's features, and am considering it for another character later on. My interest in Psionic Fist is because it improves monk abilities, plus it gets more points/day and powers known that Warmind. I like Elocator/Slayer because they enhance your manifester levels, and have a smattering of useful/interesting abilities. Warmind just seems less suitable for a monk, which would benefit more from psionic buffs, although some of the powers looks very strong.
Should I just scrap this character, or accept its potential underoptimization?
@PhaedrusXY: I do like some of the Warmind's features, and am considering it for another character later on. My interest in Psionic Fist is because it improves monk abilities, plus it gets more points/day and powers known that Warmind. I like Elocator/Slayer because they enhance your manifester levels, and have a smattering of useful/interesting abilities. Warmind just seems less suitable for a monk, which would benefit more from psionic buffs, although some of the powers looks very strong.
Should I just scrap this character, or accept its potential underoptimization?
Warmind gets psionic buffs, and has full BAB and decent class abilities. Advancing monk unarmed damage and speed gives you less benefit than what Warmind gives you. If Psionic Fist actually stacked for Flurry of Blows, it might be worth taking, but it doesn't.
I did make a Monk/Half-orc paragon/Psionic Fist build once. The link is in my sig under "Half-orc paragon monks". I now think that Warmind is definitely the superior PrC, though. Later builds that I made along the same lines used it instead.
I'd probably enter as a Psiwarrior/Monk multiclass, so you get a few more Psiwarrior powers known, and that also takes care of the knowledge prereq.
Elocater is cool, but too difficult to enter and not really worth it once you do. I have used it in a few builds, though, but it is hard to really optimize around it.
Slayer of course is great.
So the question is Slayer or Warmind? Obviously, Slayer would be most useful if prior levels were taken in PsyWar. I feel that Warmind benefits from other combat classes more greatly than monk...
Its looking like I'm going to have to blow off monk entirely, which seriously blows a hole in both my plan and the title of this thread. Half Orc Paragon/PysWar into Slayer sounds interesting though.
Any ideas on how to salvage monk?
For the CoCo, there are two types of monk I would consider playing:
- Lots of levels of psychic warrior, 0-2 levels of monk (and some war mind, if you like). This makes for a great grappler, which is a powerful strategy until you reach higher levels. My character Snake-eyes Stormshadow (see sig) is a grappling psychic warrior; she's had mediocre success, but I think the idea is sound.
- Lots of levels of cleric (Magic domain) or druid, 1 level of monk. This pretty much speaks for itself.
- Some levels of monk (probably not more than 6, though), focusing on the Outmaneuver skill package (a special CoCo thing where you can start outside of your normal starting box). I'd probably only do this for a lark, though.
The only really useful thing that I've found a monk can do well that a non-monk can't is do a flurry of grapple attempts. That's about it.
If you're going to use Slayer, I'd enter it as a Psion/full BAB multiclass, not a psiwarrior. The benefits it grants a psiwarrior is minimal, but getting full BAB and d8 HD for your psion gish is more substantial.
Of course, if you're more focused on early level playability, a psiwarrior might be better.
Desert Half Orc(+2 Con,-2 Int)
Desert Half Orc
+2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence
Low-Light Vision: A desert half-orc can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
No darkvision.
Run: Desert half-orcs receive Run as a racial bonus feat. Typically too poor to afford mounts, half-orcs learn from an early age to get from place to place by running.
+2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence
Low-Light Vision: A desert half-orc can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
No darkvision.
Run: Desert half-orcs receive Run as a racial bonus feat. Typically too poor to afford mounts, half-orcs learn from an early age to get from place to place by running.
- It costs credits to use (since it comes from UA).
- Darkness (of various flavours) is not uncommon, and darkvision negates it completely in some cases (not just within 60').
- Str > Con for a melee fighter (IMO)
- The penalty to Cha is almost completely harmless now that Ego Whip has been banned.
Monk 2/ Psychic Warrior 3/ Warmind 10/ Slayer 5
Feats:
Improved unarmed Strike(Monk Bonus)
Combat Reflexes(Monk Bonus)
Improved grapple (Monk Bonus)
Run(Orc Bonus)
1st lvl: Power Attack
3rd lvl:
6th lvl: Improved Natural Attack(Unarmed Strike)
9th lvl:
12th lvl:
15th lvl: Track
18th lvl:
Thanks carnivore, I actually quite like this build. I think I'll be going with regular Half-Orc (for the reasons hogarth mentioned), though. I may also still take Stunning Fist as my monk bonus at first level.
Stat suggestions? I think a 20 Str is a natural choice, albeit an expensive one. What about those bonus feats from PsyWar?
Thanks carnivore, I actually quite like this build. I think I'll be going with regular Half-Orc (for the reasons hogarth mentioned), though. I may also still take Stunning Fist as my monk bonus at first level.
Note that Stunning Fist is not a very popular feat in the CoCo. In a 1-on-1 fight, it's not very useful since it wears off before your next turn; also you're limited in your number of uses per fight. For monk feats, I like Improved Grapple and Deflect Arrows.
For psychic warrior feats, I like the Psionic Weapon chain (-> Deep Impact).
Note that Stunning Fist is not a very popular feat in the CoCo. In a 1-on-1 fight, it's not very useful since it wears off before your next turn; also you're limited in your number of uses per fight.
It still makes them drop their held items, and keeps them from attacking for a round, though. That sounds like it's still pretty decent to me. Or did they houserule some of that away, too?
It still makes them drop their held items, and keeps them from attacking for a round, though. That sounds like it's still pretty decent to me. Or did they houserule some of that away, too?
Not yet.
I mean it's not terrible, but it has a save, you have to hit with it, etc. On the bright side, there's no opportunity cost to using it (other than using up one of your uses/day).
On the other hand, if I take Improved Grapple, I'm basically going to get use out of it every fight (if I make an uber-grappler). And Deflect Arrows tends to get a fair amount of use, too.
Speaking of feats, I also like the Psionic weapon chain. Sundering seems like a decent choice, so Imp Sunder and Focused Sunder maybe? But I'll start running out of room for feats very quickly. Also, what should this character wield? A composite bow is an easy early choice for ranged, but melee is a different story. I'm thinking guisarme and maybe falchion. Armor would typically be none, no? A suggested stat build (36 point buy) would be welcome as well.
Str: 18 (10 pts, 16+2 racial)
Dex: 14 (6 pts)
Con: 14 (6 pts)
Int: 10 (4 points, 12-2 racial)
Wis: 16 (10 pts)
Cha: 6 (0 pts, 8-2 racial)
Alternately, could go 20 Str, but results in 12 Dex and 14 Wis. The former would wear mithral breastplate, the latter might have to tromp about in full plate. Either way, my monk AC, flurry, and movement abilities never really come online.
How important is Wis to a PsyWar? Most of their abilities seem to focus on buffing, so DCs are not too important, right? Are bonus power points that big of a deal? Are there other ways around this (Cognizance crystals)?
Get a bunch of Manifestor arrows. (I'd bet my hat that that is banned in the CoCo).
If there's a link from the SRD, its pretty much legal.
Tentative stats: (36 pt buy)
Str: 18 (10 pts, 16+2 racial)
Dex: 14 (6 pts)
Con: 14 (6 pts)
Int: 10 (4 points, 12-2 racial)
Wis: 16 (10 pts)
Cha: 6 (0 pts, 8-2 racial)
Alternately, could go 20 Str, but results in 12 Dex and 14 Wis. The former would wear mithral breastplate, the latter might have to tromp about in full plate. Either way, my monk AC, flurry, and movement abilities never really come online.
How important is Wis to a PsyWar? Most of their abilities seem to focus on buffing, so DCs are not too important, right? Are bonus power points that big of a deal? Are there other ways around this (Cognizance crystals)?
Wisdom is VERY important to a PW.... those stats look good, try these adjustments in the build:
Regular 1/2 Orc
Monk 2/ Psychic Warrior 3/ Warmind 10/ Slayer 5
18 Str(16 +2 Racial)
14 Dex(14)
14 Con(14)
10 Int(12 -2 Racial)
16 Wis(16)
6 Cha(8 -2 Racial)
Feats:
Improved unarmed Strike(Monk Bonus)
Improved grapple (Monk Bonus)
Deflect Arrows(Monk Bonus)
Psionic Weapon(PW bonus)
Psicrystal Affinity(PW bonus)
1st lvl: Power Attack
3rd lvl: Psionic Meditation
6th lvl: Improved Natural Attack(Unarmed Strike)
9th lvl: Deep Impact
12th lvl: Psicrystal Containment
15th lvl: Track
18th lvl: Greater Psionic Weapon
:D
My kingdom for access to Tashalatora!
Thanks, carnivore. I am not so sure about taking the Psionic Fist/Unavoidable strike chain, however, since I might end up using weapons most of the time. Thats easily swappable with Psionic Weapon/Deep Impact, however.
Yes, Psionic Fist is strictly worse than Psionic Weapon for a monk (since a monk's unarmed strike counts as a manufactured weapon).
the Psicrystal Affinity is also to keep an Additional Psionic Focus with your Psicrystal... with Psicrystal Containment
:D
I'm thinking: Mithral Breastplate (or Chain Shirt, cash contingent), masterwork guisarme(for trips and power attack), highest strength composite bow available (various ammo types), a few shuriken, and a dorje of vigor.
Are armor spikes necessary, or will my IUS/INA cover that? Any suggestions on consumables(450 gold allotted initially)? Im thinking tanglefoot bags and powerstones, maybe a few potions of prot good/evil.
As for powers: a quick examination of the PsyWar handbooks suggests: biofeedback, expansion, inertial armor/force screen, grip of iron, offensive/defensive precog, offensive prescience, prevenom, skate, synysthete, and vigor. (Thats just level one.) I'm thinking Grip of Iron and Expansion for grapplemonkeyness. Anything else would be nice in powerstone/tattoo/dorje form.
Am I missing anything?
EDIT: I just noticed that Knockdown is in the SRD. Any way that could be worked it, or is it even worth it?
use the Passive Way Variant Monk, in the SRD
Monk 1 ......................... Power Attack, Combat Expertise (Monk Bonus), Improved unarmed Strike(Monk Bonus)
Monk 2 ......................... Imp Trip(Monk Bonus)
Psychic Warrior 1 ............ Psicrystal Affinity, Psionic Weapon(PW bonus)
Psychic Warrior 2 ............ Psionic Meditation (PW bonus)
Psychic Warrior 3
Warmind 1 ..................... Knockdown
Warmind 2
Warmind 3
Warmind 4 ..................... Deep Impact
Warmind 5
Warmind 6
Warmind 7 ..................... Psicrystal Containment
Warmind 8
Warmind 9
Warmind 10 .................... Track
Slayer 1
Slayer 2
Slayer 3 ......................... Greater Psionic Weapon
Slayer 4
Slayer 5
as for powers try this:
Monk 1
Monk 2
Psychic Warrior 1 ............ Bite of the Wolf
Psychic Warrior 2 ............ Expansion
Psychic Warrior 3 ............ Grip of Iron
Warmind 1 ..................... Vigor
Warmind 2 ..................... Precognition, Offensive
Warmind 3
Warmind 4 ..................... Strength of My Enemy
Warmind 5
Warmind 6 ..................... Vampiric Blade
Warmind 7
Warmind 8 ..................... Energy Adaptation
Warmind 9
Warmind 10 .................... Oak Body
Slayer 1
Slayer 2 ......................... Psionic Lion's Charge
Slayer 3 ......................... Concealing Amorpha
Slayer 4 ......................... Hustle
Slayer 5 ......................... Empathic Feedback
:D
Bite of the Wolf gives an extra attack that has a great duration.... very nice all for a single PP, excellent use of PP.... with PW builds PP bugeting is very important
:D
Thanks again, carnivore. You've proven, as usual, invaluable. I'm still hung up on gear options. What to wield besides a guisarme? A two-handed weapon for PA goodness, or just Unarmed strike? Also, armor and expendables are tricky. Suggestions would be very welcome.
Have a reach weapon in hand so you threaten an area, and just attack with your unarmed strike when its convenient :D.
Potions of Mage Armor and Shield go a looooonnnngggg way to survivability until you can afford bracers of armor >+4.
Have a reach weapon in hand so you threaten an area, and just attack with your unarmed strike when its convenient :D.
Potions of Mage Armor and Shield go a looooonnnngggg way to survivability until you can afford bracers of armor >+4.
There's no such thing as a potion of Shield, but a psionic tattoo of Force Screen would do the trick.
Well, it might be a custom item, but there's nothing wrong with either.
I'm just saying that Shield is a Personal spell and can't be made into a potion. However, you are right that you can get custom item in the Core Coliseum (including a 1-use item of Shield), but they generally cost credits (expensive for a 1-use item) or require an investment in Gather Information.
Thanks again, carnivore. You've proven, as usual, invaluable. I'm still hung up on gear options. What to wield besides a guisarme? A two-handed weapon for PA goodness, or just Unarmed strike? Also, armor and expendables are tricky. Suggestions would be very welcome.
A guisarme is a two-handed weapon...
A guisarme is a two-handed weapon...
