Core Only Character help needed - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Core Only Character help needed

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
daedhaed
Feb 27, 2013 19:12:44 I'm not used to being restrained to core only so I need some advice. What are the best classes, feats, and prestige classes? What are the top combinations? I could use all the help I can get here.
#2
EruditeApe
Feb 27, 2013 19:53:22 Either this, Cleric, Druid, or Wizard.

That's pretty much it, because Core sucks.
#3
daedhaed
Feb 27, 2013 20:25:13 I completely agree. Level 6 to start. Which is better? Cleric, Druid, or Wizard?
#4
EruditeApe
Feb 27, 2013 20:29:48 Wizard is the best, even without all its toys, but the druid at level 6+ is by far the easiest.
#5
daedhaed
Feb 28, 2013 8:42:37 Never played a Druid before. What are the things that make Druid so strong?
#6
oracle71
Feb 28, 2013 9:40:36 Three things make the druid so powerful: full spellcasting, wild shape, and animal companion, all in the same class.

Any class that gives up to 9th level spells is powerful, and that alone would make it a strong class.  And one of the class abilities is to spontaneously swap out spells for summoning.

Wild shape gives a great deal of versatility to the druid. He can wildshape into a bird to scout long distance, a horse or dog to infiltrate an enemy camp or city, a tiger of bear to go into melee combat, and even change into an elephant to haul the loot back to town.

But they also have an animal companion, which if you run the numbers gives the druid a class feature that is close to the same power level as the fighter or monk classes .


#7
EruditeApe
Feb 28, 2013 10:15:40 Druids are full casters, and even with a weak list, it still makes them absurd. Plus, they can turn into a big-assed animal. Without Clasps or some serious buffs, they can wind up a bit fragile, but they can still turn into a tiger and go lolchargemaimkill. This is compounded with the fact that they still manage to have a large number of the best buffs.

To round of this sheer stupidity, they also get an Animal Companion. This is basically a fighter, except, you know, good. With the proper selection, it's pretty sick. If you run the numbers, even core-only animal companions are able to kick the ass of any fighter with only minimal WBL investment.

So, in other words, they're two melee beasts, pun intended, and a full caster all rolled into one package of concentrated ass-kicking. Do note that they do not get a feat at level six. It's a hidden class feature. They get Natural Spell instead.

Also, just FYI, Druids love splats. They really function best with a bunch of the splat spells and items(I'm looking at you, Wilding Clasps). This, combined with the fact that they're probably weaker than the Sorcerer overall, due to the general weakness of the list mean that, while easy, isn't as effective as a cleric. That said, you're still a full caster. If you don't dominate everything, you aren't trying.
#8
piggyknowles
Feb 28, 2013 11:29:32 Really? I'd say in core, Druids are significantly stronger than clerics at all but the highest levels.

Anyhow, Druids are simple. Take Natural Spell as early as possible. Familiarize yourself with the animal, dire animal and dinosaur sections of the MM. Pay especially close attention to animals with abnormally high physical stats for their HD, and animals with fun special abilities like pounce, improved grab, trip, natural flight, etc.

Spend a day or two as a giant bear that buffs himself to all heck and back and eats people. Maybe another as a dire bat that rains down fiery death on enemies. Heck, turn into a dire ape, cast Shillelagh on the nearest staff-sized branch and pretend to be that annoying monkey shaman from the Lion King.

Animal companion is nice but not crazy in core, so keep that in mind. It's almost always a good idea to update your animal companion every chance you get - the higher lists of ACs almost always give bigger boosts than what four effective Druid levels would get you.

Pick what you like... My own favorites are:

1- Riding Dog (if wartrained riding dogs are available), Wolf (if not), Medium Viper (if I'm planning on milking poisons)

4- Crocodile, Dire Bat

7- Brown Bear, Giant Crocodile, Tiger

10- This is the one awkward level, where an advanced brown bear does better than a polar bear, and an advanced tiger does about the same as a dire lion or megaraptor. Unless you're in an aquatic campaign, that is, in which case this level is awesome.

13- Dire Bear, Elephant (strictly for the cool factor of riding around an elephant - the dire bear is basically better in every way)

16- Dire Tiger, Triceratops, Tyrannosaurus

As for wild shape, I always prefer defensive and aerial wild shape forms, rather than trying to mix it up in melee, but you've got a ton of options there, too many to go into right now. Look up a handbook and skim it for the core options, but I usually get most of my mileage out of flying forms with good defenses, burrowing forms, and the treant.

Your real power, of course, comes from spells. Druids have a fun spell list, although less versatile than the wizard. Check out www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p... for a good summary of core spells, in particular Darrin's post and my post.
#9
EruditeApe
Feb 28, 2013 12:23:31
Really? I'd say in core, Druids are significantly stronger than clerics at all but the highest levels.

Not really. Especially in core, Clerics have the better buffs. Sure, Wildshape is nifty, but a properly-buffed Cleric can eat them for breakfast. Actually, it's pretty much the other way around. High-level druids will dominate clerics, simply because Shapechange>>>Every other spell in existence. I guess level six or so is another sweet spot for druids because Clerics don't have all the great buffs by then. It doesn't help that the Animal Companion is pretty much obsolete later on, and the cleric really should just roflstomp the druid.

Also, Clerics have better access to WBL abuse. They're generally better until "I have full access to every list and basically any spell I want available at will" comes online.

re:AC: At level 1, the best is the riding dog. Past that, you really want cats. They get the most benefit from your buffs, and it can pretty much turn into lolpounce chunky salsa against anything even remotely near appropriate CR. Bears are seriously overrated.

What you want is, in order, Riding Dog, Leopard, Tiger, Dire Lion, and Dire Tiger. I honestly recommend skipping Dire Bear and that entire leve, really. Dire Lion should generally be superior, especially after a buff round or two. Lolpounce is just the most efficient method here.
#10
piggyknowles
Feb 28, 2013 13:19:42 Don't bother with dire lion - just take a regular tiger and advance it. You get the same HD, attack routine and damage, but with slightly better AC, evasion and a bonus trick.

Anyhow, clerics get better buffs - except the best of them have fairly short durations and can't be pre-cast. At least until the higher levels, when they can be quickened, the core cleric puts up worse numbers than the druid when you take a buffing round into account.

Add DMM into the picture and clerics come out ahead by a mile, of course. But in core, druids will put up better figures from level 1 (when animal companions are still good) to around level 15, in my experience.

And I agree that Shapechange is basically the best possible spell. I still give clerics the nod because of consistent access to Gate, Miracle and Astral Projection, plus access to Shapechange via domain. But it's a wash, I guess, since a druid can just use Shapechange to pick up SLAs of the above.
#11
Tempest_Stormwind
Feb 28, 2013 13:31:21 The advantage that druids have over clerics in core isn't raw power - it's in variability and simplicity. You need nothing beyond Natural Spell and about thirty seconds to judge the right animal companion and you'll have a competitive powerful character as a core Druid 20. Cleric 20 takes a bit more finesse, but will be stronger overall. (Tsuyoshikentsu summed the druid up by saying "Having 300 when you need 100 once is not optimal; having 100 whenever you need 100 is." In core the numbers are a bit less exaggerated, but the same precept holds.)
#12
daedhaed
Feb 28, 2013 14:52:51 Yeah, before I only wanted to put out numbers. So I played Barbarians/Duskblades/Fighters and pretty much anything that I could get to hit. And hard. Once I played a flying Swift Hunter using the old method of Greater Manyshot. Now Wizard has become my bread and butter. They have a spell for every situation, difficult to deal with, and (if built right) can help a party walk through a campaign. My DM has asked me to expand my knowledge and step out of my comfort zone a little. Now the DM has switched systems and this campaign will now be a D&D Next playtest. Do they even have a forum for that yet?
#13
draco1119
Feb 28, 2013 15:19:19 Yes.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 daedhaed Feb 27, 2013 19:12:44	I'm not used to being restrained to core only so I need some advice. What are the best classes, feats, and prestige classes? What are the top combinations? I could use all the help I can get here.
#2 EruditeApe Feb 27, 2013 19:53:22	Either this, Cleric, Druid, or Wizard. That's pretty much it, because Core sucks.
#3 daedhaed Feb 27, 2013 20:25:13	I completely agree. Level 6 to start. Which is better? Cleric, Druid, or Wizard?
#4 EruditeApe Feb 27, 2013 20:29:48	Wizard is the best, even without all its toys, but the druid at level 6+ is by far the easiest.
#5 daedhaed Feb 28, 2013 8:42:37	Never played a Druid before. What are the things that make Druid so strong?
#6 oracle71 Feb 28, 2013 9:40:36	Three things make the druid so powerful: full spellcasting, wild shape, and animal companion, all in the same class. Any class that gives up to 9th level spells is powerful, and that alone would make it a strong class. And one of the class abilities is to spontaneously swap out spells for summoning. Wild shape gives a great deal of versatility to the druid. He can wildshape into a bird to scout long distance, a horse or dog to infiltrate an enemy camp or city, a tiger of bear to go into melee combat, and even change into an elephant to haul the loot back to town. But they also have an animal companion, which if you run the numbers gives the druid a class feature that is close to the same power level as the fighter or monk classes .
#7 EruditeApe Feb 28, 2013 10:15:40	Druids are full casters, and even with a weak list, it still makes them absurd. Plus, they can turn into a big-assed animal. Without Clasps or some serious buffs, they can wind up a bit fragile, but they can still turn into a tiger and go lolchargemaimkill. This is compounded with the fact that they still manage to have a large number of the best buffs. To round of this sheer stupidity, they also get an Animal Companion. This is basically a fighter, except, you know, good. With the proper selection, it's pretty sick. If you run the numbers, even core-only animal companions are able to kick the ass of any fighter with only minimal WBL investment. So, in other words, they're two melee beasts, pun intended, and a full caster all rolled into one package of concentrated ass-kicking. Do note that they do not get a feat at level six. It's a hidden class feature. They get Natural Spell instead. Also, just FYI, Druids love splats. They really function best with a bunch of the splat spells and items(I'm looking at you, Wilding Clasps). This, combined with the fact that they're probably weaker than the Sorcerer overall, due to the general weakness of the list mean that, while easy, isn't as effective as a cleric. That said, you're still a full caster. If you don't dominate everything, you aren't trying.
#8 piggyknowles Feb 28, 2013 11:29:32	Really? I'd say in core, Druids are significantly stronger than clerics at all but the highest levels. Anyhow, Druids are simple. Take Natural Spell as early as possible. Familiarize yourself with the animal, dire animal and dinosaur sections of the MM. Pay especially close attention to animals with abnormally high physical stats for their HD, and animals with fun special abilities like pounce, improved grab, trip, natural flight, etc. Spend a day or two as a giant bear that buffs himself to all heck and back and eats people. Maybe another as a dire bat that rains down fiery death on enemies. Heck, turn into a dire ape, cast Shillelagh on the nearest staff-sized branch and pretend to be that annoying monkey shaman from the Lion King. Animal companion is nice but not crazy in core, so keep that in mind. It's almost always a good idea to update your animal companion every chance you get - the higher lists of ACs almost always give bigger boosts than what four effective Druid levels would get you. Pick what you like... My own favorites are: 1- Riding Dog (if wartrained riding dogs are available), Wolf (if not), Medium Viper (if I'm planning on milking poisons) 4- Crocodile, Dire Bat 7- Brown Bear, Giant Crocodile, Tiger 10- This is the one awkward level, where an advanced brown bear does better than a polar bear, and an advanced tiger does about the same as a dire lion or megaraptor. Unless you're in an aquatic campaign, that is, in which case this level is awesome. 13- Dire Bear, Elephant (strictly for the cool factor of riding around an elephant - the dire bear is basically better in every way) 16- Dire Tiger, Triceratops, Tyrannosaurus As for wild shape, I always prefer defensive and aerial wild shape forms, rather than trying to mix it up in melee, but you've got a ton of options there, too many to go into right now. Look up a handbook and skim it for the core options, but I usually get most of my mileage out of flying forms with good defenses, burrowing forms, and the treant. Your real power, of course, comes from spells. Druids have a fun spell list, although less versatile than the wizard. Check out www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p... for a good summary of core spells, in particular Darrin's post and my post.
#9 EruditeApe Feb 28, 2013 12:23:31	Really? I'd say in core, Druids are significantly stronger than clerics at all but the highest levels. Not really. Especially in core, Clerics have the better buffs. Sure, Wildshape is nifty, but a properly-buffed Cleric can eat them for breakfast. Actually, it's pretty much the other way around. High-level druids will dominate clerics, simply because Shapechange>>>Every other spell in existence. I guess level six or so is another sweet spot for druids because Clerics don't have all the great buffs by then. It doesn't help that the Animal Companion is pretty much obsolete later on, and the cleric really should just roflstomp the druid. Also, Clerics have better access to WBL abuse. They're generally better until "I have full access to every list and basically any spell I want available at will" comes online. re:AC: At level 1, the best is the riding dog. Past that, you really want cats. They get the most benefit from your buffs, and it can pretty much turn into lolpounce chunky salsa against anything even remotely near appropriate CR. Bears are seriously overrated. What you want is, in order, Riding Dog, Leopard, Tiger, Dire Lion, and Dire Tiger. I honestly recommend skipping Dire Bear and that entire leve, really. Dire Lion should generally be superior, especially after a buff round or two. Lolpounce is just the most efficient method here.
#10 piggyknowles Feb 28, 2013 13:19:42	Don't bother with dire lion - just take a regular tiger and advance it. You get the same HD, attack routine and damage, but with slightly better AC, evasion and a bonus trick. Anyhow, clerics get better buffs - except the best of them have fairly short durations and can't be pre-cast. At least until the higher levels, when they can be quickened, the core cleric puts up worse numbers than the druid when you take a buffing round into account. Add DMM into the picture and clerics come out ahead by a mile, of course. But in core, druids will put up better figures from level 1 (when animal companions are still good) to around level 15, in my experience. And I agree that Shapechange is basically the best possible spell. I still give clerics the nod because of consistent access to Gate, Miracle and Astral Projection, plus access to Shapechange via domain. But it's a wash, I guess, since a druid can just use Shapechange to pick up SLAs of the above.
#11 Tempest_Stormwind Feb 28, 2013 13:31:21	The advantage that druids have over clerics in core isn't raw power - it's in variability and simplicity. You need nothing beyond Natural Spell and about thirty seconds to judge the right animal companion and you'll have a competitive powerful character as a core Druid 20. Cleric 20 takes a bit more finesse, but will be stronger overall. (Tsuyoshikentsu summed the druid up by saying "Having 300 when you need 100 once is not optimal; having 100 whenever you need 100 is." In core the numbers are a bit less exaggerated, but the same precept holds.)
#12 daedhaed Feb 28, 2013 14:52:51	Yeah, before I only wanted to put out numbers. So I played Barbarians/Duskblades/Fighters and pretty much anything that I could get to hit. And hard. Once I played a flying Swift Hunter using the old method of Greater Manyshot. Now Wizard has become my bread and butter. They have a spell for every situation, difficult to deal with, and (if built right) can help a party walk through a campaign. My DM has asked me to expand my knowledge and step out of my comfort zone a little. Now the DM has switched systems and this campaign will now be a D&D Next playtest. Do they even have a forum for that yet?
#13 draco1119 Feb 28, 2013 15:19:19	Yes.