I want to get this clear right away - I certainly don't intend to break the campaign, or pull any dastardly trick that is beyond the normal scope of the game. I intend to make a functional, useful character in this campaign, and that is all. However, I've been doing some number crunching, and it appears that in the later levels (around 10+), my Paladin will be a waste of space in the party. His power simply does not scale well enough to keep up with the monsters of equivalent levels. This becomes apparent when comparing his AC at those levels to the monster's attack bonuses (Most will be hitting him on 8 or higher), and comparing his attack bonus to their AC (in which case, he will often need an 18 or higher to hit).
So, I was wondering how you in the character optimization community deal with such problems as fighter-type characters. What tricks should I know, and equipment should I be looking for?
Also, I have been thinking of two different equipment setups. One is Sword and Shield, taking Improved Shield Bash and Two-weapon Fighting to improve my offensive abilities while still having a decent AC. The other is using a bastardsword or greatsword two handed, which leaves me with low AC especially at later levels, without the ability to use a good magic shield (the Animated property simply seems too expensive to be partiuclarly useful, given that price increases exponentially)
Can anybody help me out with this, and impart some much needed character-building wisdom?
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=858849
Unfortunately, it really has no valuable information at all for core. It's more of a comparison of various feats and alternative class features than a guide. Very useful to someone trying to root out the best features to slap on a character sheet from 100 different sources, not so useful to someone looking for an analysis of a smaller range.
Basically, in a core only game, you're going to be dependant on buffs from friendly casters. It is a good idea for them to buff you, though, since in alot of situations casting a buff on you is more economical than trying to kill something themselves. So work out something with them (buy them Pearls of Power, whatever).
Pearls of Power for you are actually efficient when you can cast spells; their cost is based off of spell-level, not caster level, which is great for your spell list since you cast spells at lower level.
In short... for Core-only, I wouldn't get feats based on Sword-and-Board, but its ok to use it.
Anyways, I suppose I'll stick up my stats and soforth to see if I can get any more help in any areas:
Str 14
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 14
Cha 16
4 ranks into both Ride and Sense Motive
That's all that I've written down on my character sheet so far. Everything else relies on something I'm not sure of - I can't pick my feats until I know what weapon setup I'm using, and this is rather important to me. I'm even seriously considering the spiked chain or Lance simply because of how important reach can be.
Any advice, on any aspect of my character is appreciated. Dont' be offended if I don't take it immediately though - I don't do anything dogmatically, I want to understand the reasoning behind everything and I will ask for clarification if I am unsure. Thanks in advance,
-Sanguini
EDIT: Actually, that's some pretty good advice James. I'm gonna run the numbers on it, and heavily consider it. I can imagine it really being useful, especially at later levels with my Paladin mount that I never have to worry about stabling.
Second EDIT: I've been informed that this is an urban campaign. All of a sudden, the mount (while incredibly awesome) doesn't have nearly so much use. I don't think I'll be setting myself up with mounted feats for this campaign, though I will keep it in mind for the future.
My str bonus isn't high enough that using something 2 handed offers a large bonus
Power attack with a 2-handed weapon for the improved damage bonus.
There is also the problem that wielding a heavy shield and a weapon may interfere with you casting spells with somatic components or focuses. Animated shields leave your hand free (since you can hold a 2-handed weapon in 1 hand as a free action).
Though I might consider taking a few points away from cha to sink into int, though that is but a personal preference, since I don't like stats below 10, and feel that a paladin might do better with ranks in diplomacy and perhaps knowledge.
And yes, go with a lance and wield it 2-handed, despite the strength penalty. The returns from Power Attack really make it worth it, especially when combined with Spirited Charge and bonuses from using a lance.
And yes, Pearls of Power are great, both for yourself and as a way to encourage spellcasters to keep you well buffed.
What about using a halfling paladin mounted on a riding dog? Then you could use the mount easier.
-AS-
I would play a Ranger instead of a Paladin in an Urban game. Just the better option.
Frag. That's exactly what I was hoping not to hear, but it's just about the same conclusion I was leaning to after finding it out. Now I have to think between Ranger, Rogue, or Monk.
Yeah, I really dont' think that a mount will work indoors, even if it's just a riding dog. You simply aren't able to charge in 10' x 10' rooms or crowded streets.
Or maybe I should just stick to casters, since I always end up worrying about long-term effectiveness rather than short-term anyways.
A +1 Animated Heavy Steel Shield costs a little over 9000gp, which is not much once you get up to a higher level. If the party has some crafters in it, you can even get them to do it for you.
Up until 8th level, it's about 1/2 of your total wealth. Especially when considering that a ring of protection +2 only costs 8,000gp, and applies its armor bonus to all situations, all the time, doesn't take up a hand, and is 1000 less, I just really can't see an animated shield being effective use of money. Considering that you might at some point want a shield that gives more than 3 to your AC, the animated shield becomes exorbitantly expensive, and has very little usefulness when compared to the drawbacks. I didn't previously understand that you needed to have a hand free in order to cast spells - I always believed that you were able to use weapons for somatic components. However, with thta in mind I've changed my stance on shields. Now instead of thinking that using a non-animated shield was the way to go, I now firmly believe that there's no point to having any shield aside from the level 1 spell.
Up until 8th level, it's about 1/2 of your total wealth. Especially when considering that a ring of protection +2 only costs 8,000gp, and applies its armor bonus to all situations, all the time, doesn't take up a hand, and is 1000 less, I just really can't see an animated shield being effective use of money. Considering that you might at some point want a shield that gives more than 3 to your AC, the animated shield becomes exorbitantly expensive, and has very little usefulness when compared to the drawbacks.
That's why I said "at higher levels", and "get a cleric to cast Magic Vestment on it".
Yeah, in a game where you never get beyond 10th level, and there is no cleric in the party to increase the enhancement bonus, I'd probably think they stink, too.
And a Ring of Protection +1 is only 2,000 gp. That plus the animated shield with Magic Vestment is worth alot more than a Ring +2, or even a Ring +3. Multiple low bonus magic items are almost always worth more than one big one, especially when you can increase the bonus using spells (Magic Vestment).
I do agree that in an urban core-only game, I'd probably play something besides a palladin. I'd suggest cleric would be a good replacement. With the Trickery domain and a moderate Int, you could even sneak around with the party rogues.
Do you have access to PHB II? sometimes thats' included by some DMs. If it's Urban, see what you can do about letting him let you use Charging Smite (instead of mount) -- really ups the ante for damage output and smite-ability.
Also, it's sad you wont get Complete champion. If you want to go straight paladin, see if he lets you take -Battle Blessing-. It makes most of your spells swift actions; A real boon in any game. If you dont want to break your Paladin levels..that's the surest way to go. - Charging smite alternate class feature and Battle Blessing feat (paladin only)
In the end, it's the paladin's spells which will help him in higher levels..though not much. You gotta buy stuff wisely, and without Spell compendium and Magic Item compendium the Paladin suffers, and badly. (No Rhino Rush? *emocry*)
You could always be silly and be a Sorcadin though. There's a link around here for that...though I'm not sure it'll work in core. But level 1 cha-dependant spells arent bad to have for a melee-r.
Let him know your concerns, that you would really like to play a straight paladin (no dips, no other classes, -straight paladin-) And would really not like to be a burden to the party later on. -one- feat and -one- alternate class feature isnt too steep, especially if your mount will be obsolete thanks to it being an urban game. Usually DMs can cut a little bit of slack.
Rogues simply don't deal enough damage, and are too fragile for my liking even though they're perfectly suited to an urban campaign.
Uhh... rogues can dish out great amounts of damage with TWF and flanking. A dwarven righter/rogue is pretty good in a core-only game. I'd only take a couple of levels of fighter for feats, and go rogue at 1st for the skill points.
The dwarven racial Con bonus means you have the equivalent of a d8 hit die compared to a human palladin's d10 and broader stat dependancy. So it is quite possible that the dwarven fighter/rogue could have more hit points.
If you can manage it, grabbing a few levels of bard first in your build (if you've got a few levels) and then going into Paladin might up your ability. You'll always have a buff to use.
Alignment conflict. No way to overcome it in core.
Uhh... rogues can dish out great amounts of damage with TWF and flanking. A dwarven righter/rogue is pretty good in a core-only game. I'd only take a couple of levels of fighter for feats, and go rogue at 1st for the skill points.
The dwarven racial Con bonus means you have the equivalent of a d8 hit die compared to a human palladin's d10 and broader stat dependancy. So it is quite possible that the dwarven fighter/rogue could have more hit points.
Rogues are fragile not because of their low HP, but because they lack the ability to defend themselves. Wizards are far less fragile than rogues - they have all kinds of different buffs and defenses they can set up for themselves, dimension door, etc. Fighter-types have high AC, far more HP than any rogue (and still usually more than any rogue-hybrid), and better saves (rogues are so vulnerable in both of the "instant-kill" saves, fort and wis). I really don't understand the Con-bonus logic... If having a con bonus "effectively" turns the rogue's hit die to a d8, then by extension the Paladin's must be a d12 to d18, especially since he'll naturally be putting a higher stat into Con in the first place. Survivability is a combination of many factors, of which the rogue doesn't have many. Their only thing I can admit that they do have for survivability is the ability to hide.
However, with TWF, constant flanking, and a foe that sneak attack works on, the damage can be impressive from about 7th level and on. I'm building a goblin rogue, a dwarf rogue who might cross into fighter, a gnome wizard, and a human cleric. I'm still trying to find a way to build a satisfactory paladin or fighter type too, but it's causing me a lot of trouble. Maybe it'll turn into a barbarian if I stare at it long enough.
Rogues are fragile not because of their low HP, but because they lack the ability to defend themselves. Wizards are far less fragile than rogues - they have all kinds of different buffs and defenses they can set up for themselves, dimension door, etc.
Hiding is often superior to being invisible. Also, rogues can use wands, scrolls, etc, via UMD to buff themselves. It can get expensive, and requires some character investment to use anything but wands, though (DC 20 is fairly easy, even with a crappy Cha score).
Fighter-types have high AC, far more HP than any rogue (and still usually more than any rogue-hybrid), and better saves (rogues are so vulnerable in both of the "instant-kill" saves, fort and wis). I really don't understand the Con-bonus logic... If having a con bonus "effectively" turns the rogue's hit die to a d8, then by extension the Paladin's must be a d12 to d18, especially since he'll naturally be putting a higher stat into Con in the first place.
Why would you assume that? Palladin's need Str, Con, and Cha, with moderate Wis. A fighter/rogue needs Dex and Con, with moderate Int and Str. The rogue can afford to put as many or more points in Con than the palladin, and dwarves make good fighter rogues. They don't make good palladins. So there is another +2 Con from race. Dwarves also get that racial +2 vs most saves, and the fighter dip gives them a +3 to base fort saves. Their racial Con bonus also helps on that front.
Survivability is a combination of many factors, of which the rogue doesn't have many. Their only thing I can admit that they do have for survivability is the ability to hide.
The best way to survive is 1) don't get targetted (hiding), and 2) kill them first (lots of damage, surprize round, etc).
Alignment conflict. No way to overcome it in core.
You start as a bard, and then see the light and become an ex bard. This isnt difficult if you start with a neutral good bard, and then see the light of the law in a well thought out background and become a paladin - and inspiration to all your comrades on the battlefield with your heavenly voice and glorious tales. Whenever your comrades would falter, you bolster them with your charisma, and your inspiring tales, leading the example of a true hero with divine aid. No it's easy to overcome. Ex bards dont lose any abilities.
What if you were a Lawful Good Rogue #/Paladin #/Rogue #?
1st level + X would be rogue, and then some mix of Pally and Rogue following that. Paladin levels have to be bunched together, because once you take another class you can no longer continue as a paladin. You'll sink skill points in the post Paladin rogue levels into UMD (which is a CHA skill).
The result:
CHA to Saves, Evasion, Sneak Attack, Smite, Sneaky... could be a very effective striker. And UMD is just gravy all over the place.
Obviously a Fighter 2 dip is always feasible in core. Monk 2 is a save/evasion/feat dip I see a lot as well.
But Paladin 3 for divine grace. Divine grace = cha to saves, man.
Palladins get Divine Grace at level 2.
1st-DM approvial. Some of the things i'm going to suggest are going to require some cooperation from your DM.
2nd-Feats: Core feats don't really offer much to paladins except for the riding feats, so i'm going to suggest going that route. By taking Mounted Combat, Ride-by-Attack, Spirited Charge, and Trample all by lvl 6. Next 4 feats you get are pretty much open, but I suggest throwing in Leadership for the cohort (DM approvial). Other feats might help are Power Attack and Improved Sunder. As was noted in the Paladin's Handbook, Improved Sunder can be used in abusive ways to sunder wizard's spell pouches, enemy archer's quivers (and arrows), or even enemy cleric's holy symbols.
3rd-Skills: I've always believed Diplomacy and Sense Motive were the best skills of a pally. Ride offers some help with your Special Mount, but your probably going to get armor for it anyways and you might be able to diffuse situations with words instead of swords.
4th-Mount: Besides a heavy war horse, the DMG provides better mounts the higher you gain paladin levels (DM approvial). A creature with a CR lower than the paladin level -3. So for example, you could switch out your heavy warhorse mount at level 10 for say a Celestial Dire Lion (CR 7) with all powers gained at the level 10 special mount abilities (besides, what paladin wouldn't want to ride Aslan into battle?). And at level 16-19 your looking at trading off with adult to mature adult metallic dragon. If your going to go straight core, you DM should be willing to work with you on some aspects.
5th-Equipment: I'd definitly get a lance and shield, probably a longsword as backup when not mounted. Full plate all the way and when you start getting money for magical items, don't get mithral armor. That's 9k you could be spending on something else better suited for you (ie, animated shield ;)) or gauntlets of Str, cloak of Cha, Amulet of health, etc...
6th-Spells: Well, with core we don't really have much to work with. I suggest you get with your cleric and see what spells will accomidate his casting, no use in preparing cure light wounds when he can do it spontaneously. Spells like bless weapon, divine favor, protection from chaos/evil, lesser restoration, bull's strength, remove paralysis, shield other,etc.. are all spells that jump out at me that are more useful than most.
7th-Tactics: I don't know your party makeup, but I hope there's a cleric and maybe a fighter with you too? If so, then your in luck. You won't be pressured to be the sole healer or melee meat shield and can operate a little more freely. The best thing to do (if not mounted) is flank your opponents, giving the +2 bonus to allies and keeping them within your Aura (bad guys like fear effects) or you could help cover the caster as he does spells, or go after the sorcerer as your allies deal with this lackies. But the main thing is that your not tied to a specific role, so use that to your advantage. Also, battleground tactics help too. If your in a dungeon and you clear out a pretty large space, try to secure the area. Make a base and attempt to lure the dungeon's denizens to you with help from you rogue or wizard's spells. With the room, you can freely use your mount as you please and it allows to casters to create some traps for your foes. Do battle on ground of your choosing. Last but not least, have your casters buff you. Haste, Bull's Str, Prayer, etc..any spell that helps you in battle increases your party's survival rate.
Well theres my
, hope some of that helps.Power attack with a 2-handed weapon for the improved damage bonus.
I'm missing something, why would using Power Attack on a two-handed weapon be any different than using it on a one-handed weapon? You're simply adding BAB to damage right?
Two-handed weapons grant + 1.5 (STR Bonus), meaning with a STR of 14, he does + 3 damage instead of + 2. It's not like the rule is x 1.5 (STR Bonus), meaning that by using power attack to increase your "damage base" you could get significant returns by wielding weapons in two hands. I also saw someone quote recently that if you use a Bastard Sword/ Dwarven Waraxe in 2 hands, but are capable of using it one, you actually get + 2 (STR Bonus)... have I missed errata or something?