Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 posterboy Jun 06, 2009 0:55:29	Hey All, I'm back again, looking for some new (old) advice for a new game I'm looking to join. I'll admit up, front that it may seem rather dull at first glance, but I'm hoping it won't turn you away right off the bat. Truth be told, I've never played a "core-only" game, and I think it might be a whole lot trickier. Anyway, here's this skinny --> I've got an invite to a "Core-Only" game with the following details: Books Allowed: Player's Handbook I, Player's Handbook II, DM Guide I, DM Guide II, Monster Manual I Starting Level: 14 Races Allowed: Anything from the Player's Handbook or Monster Manual. Templates are also allowed. Classes Allowed: Any fully laid out class from either of the two Player's Handbooks (so no Warlocks, Scouts, etc), plus the prestige classes outlined in the DM Guide I. Multiclass penalties are in effect. Religion/Dieties Allowed: Those outlined in the Player's Handbook. Alignment Restrictions: Any good. Ability Scores: 18, 16, 14, 12, 12, 10. Starting Wealth: Standard for level (150,000 gp, I believe). Equipment can be purchased from the Player's Handbook and the DM Guide. Additional Notes: Flavor text of classes can be ignored. Meaning a Minotaur Monk 2 / Rogue 2 / Barbarian 2 is an acceptable build (though, maybe no good). I'm looking for help to create a warrior-esque type character within these guidelines. I was thinking of trying something from the Monster Manual, like a Minotaur or Wear-Bear or Ogre? And probably some kind of two-handed damage dealer? Looking for suggestions for a build, as well as feats. Please remember, core only! Thanks in advance for your help! :D Posterboy
#2 dandu Jun 06, 2009 1:03:17	Technically not core only if the PHBII is present. Here's an idea Ranger2/Fighter12 Feats: 1: Endurance Power Attack 2: Combat Style: Two Weapon Fighting 3. Steadfast Determination Weapon Focus: Morning Star 4: Improved Initiative 6: Combat Reflexes Weapon Specialization: Morning Star 8: Brutal Strike 9: Melee Weapon Mastery: Bludgeoning 10: Melee Weapon Mastery: Piercing 12: Robilar's Gambit 14: Crushing Strike 15: Driving Attack
#3 jgumbyrx Jun 06, 2009 1:56:33	Technically not core only if the PHBII is present. Here's an idea Ranger2/Fighter12 Feats: 1: Endurance Power Attack 2: Combat Style: Two Weapon Fighting 3. Steadfast Determination Weapon Focus: Morning Star 4: Improved Initiative 6: Combat Reflexes Weapon Specialization: Morning Star 8: Brutal Strike 9: Melee Weapon Mastery: Bludgeoning 10: Melee Weapon Mastery: Piercing 12: Robilar's Gambit 14: Crushing Strike 15: Driving Attack yup, that pretty-much does it.
#4 Senevri Jun 06, 2009 4:29:56	Mmh... not bad. Not too much BFC, though... but if I read correctly, it has unused feats so there's customization options. Except Ranger gets Endurance at L3, so it's a waste of a feat. So... Ranger 3/Fighter 10, same feats. Not sure I'd want more Fighter here, anyway. Are you how opposed to casting? Gishing isn't that good, without SpC spells and low CL, but... Hm. Okay, more effective, more dipping, same idea: Fighter 1/Ranger 2/Monk 2/Ranger +1/Fighter +9. Four non-fighter levels, four good feats for free, better saves, -1 BAB. Able to dip more, as Fighter is favored class, so you can get into, say, Rogue, for extra flanking damage - PHB 2 has a bunch of good flanking feats.
#5 xakypshalorn Jun 06, 2009 4:38:28	Actually, 'gishing' in a minor way, can be pretty powerful. Specifically I'm referring to Duskblade, straight out of the PH2. Spells help round out the build's total potential, giving some pretty sweet options.
#6 Senevri Jun 06, 2009 5:45:16	Ah, yes. Forgot 'bout PH2 spells. In my experience, std. action buff spells rarely are that useful, especially in "patrolling" type games. They just take too long to activate. Hour-per-levels are okay from level 6 onwards, though. I'm not that familiar with Duskblades, so cannot speak of them.
#7 Treantmonklvl20 Jun 06, 2009 7:01:08	13th level is the premiere ability for duskblades - allowing them to deliver a single touch spell to multiple opponents through a full attack. Vampiric Touch arcane chanelling with TWF is pretty terrifying. Gives room for a single level of multiclass if desired - however, the class doesn't multiclass all that well - probably duskblade 14 is your best bet if you want to go that way. Certainly, once PHBII is introduced - a fighter improves greatly over core only. I'm not saying anything new here - but a core druid of course is a pretty buff fighter as well.
#8 runestar Jun 06, 2009 9:35:24	Do note that as per the FAQ, melee weapon mastery does not stack with itself, so there is no point in taking it twice. Robilar's gambit also is not quite as useful if you are not using 2-handed weapons (since your AoO will be made with a 1-handed weapon for inferior damage). Otherwise, that is a fairly good build, though you could consider going all the way to ranger4 (for the distracting attack variant, plus you get endurance at 3rd lv anyways). Ranger6 for greater 2-weapon fighting. A straight barb build isn't too shabby, or you could always splash 4 lvs for melee weapon mastery. Something like barb10/fighter4 (preparing to go barb11 for greater rage). Take extra rage, endurance, steadfast determination, power attack and you are good to go.
#9 dandu Jun 06, 2009 10:02:58	Except Ranger gets Endurance at L3, so it's a waste of a feat. So... Ranger 3/Fighter 10, same feats. Not sure I'd want more Fighter here, anyway. Going Ranger3/Fighter 11 prevent taking a feat at character level 14 (Fighter level 12)
#10 aelryinth Jun 06, 2009 10:10:38	barb/2 ranger/2 Fighter 10 would probably do the trick. You can't build a melee warrior that level without Pounce...it's simply too strong. Weren't shock trooper and combat brute in the PH2? If so, you've got the basis for a Charger build right there. ==Aelryinth
#11 dandu Jun 06, 2009 10:15:55	The Pounce barbarian was in the Complete Champion. Shock Trooper and Combat Brute were in Complete Warrior.
#12 Senevri Jun 06, 2009 10:24:36	Weren't shock trooper and combat brute in the PH2? No. Dandu, some feat needs BAB 14? I thing not wasting a feat & picking both at 15 is better... Unless the build actually caps at l14.
#13 dandu Jun 06, 2009 10:27:11	No. Dandu, some feat needs BAB 14? I thing not wasting a feat & picking both at 15 is better... Unless the build actually caps at l14. Well, he starts at 14, and I don't know if he'll level up beyond that or not.
#14 altpersona Jun 06, 2009 10:27:49	10 lvl of fighter? gimme raging pouncing twf duskblade
#15 dandu Jun 06, 2009 10:32:37	10 lvl of fighter? gimme raging pouncing twf duskblade Wow. I am in awe of the mountains of useful advice you have given to the OP, especially considering that some of it isn't even available in the books allowed for him to use.
#16 phaedrusxy Jun 06, 2009 14:40:10	This thread might be useful to you. Just splash in some useful feats from the PHB2. In core-only games that start at higher levels, I really like minotaurs for melee builds. Here is a build from that thread that uses a minotaur. Just trim a few levels off it.
#17 posterboy Jun 07, 2009 2:23:45	Thanks all! That was just the help I needed! Thanks for the quick response time! Posterboy
#18 hogarth Jun 07, 2009 8:19:32	Originally Posted by altpersona 10 lvl of fighter? gimme raging pouncing twf duskblade Wow. I am in awe of the mountains of useful advice you have given to the OP, especially considering that some of it isn't even available in the books allowed for him to use. Huh? All of that is available using the original poster's resources: Barbarian 1: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip Druid 1: Druid 2: TWF Druid 3: Druid 4: Druid 5: Natural Spell Druid 6: Druid 7: Druid 8: Multiattack Duskblade 1: Duskblade 2: Combat Casting Duskblade 3: Power Attack Duskblade 4: Duskblade 5: Stay wildshaped into a dire lion all day, and get one of your buddies to outfit you with a set of dragonhide breastplate barding with armor spikes. Then you have a: -raging (O.K., not much rage) -pouncing (dire lion) -TWF (armor spikes + an off-hand attack with a touch spell of some kind) -duskblade Finish off with 2 more duskblade levels and some mystic theurge. (Note: You also have an XP penalty for a while. Also note: I'm not recommending this build, I'm just sayin'.)
#19 dandu Jun 07, 2009 8:31:30	Pounce! Pounce! Pouncing barbarian is from Complete Champion! Complete Champion is not the PHB, PHB2, DMG, or DMG2!
#20 Senevri Jun 07, 2009 9:30:40	Ah. I see. Hogarth is correct. WILD SHAPE, not barbarian, nets pounce. Actually, you don't really need Barbarian there. Sure, it gives a minor boost, but that's it. Amongst the things I despise are colossal monks and changing shape to become a better warrior. Well, there are some exceptions to that rule, but...
#21 dandu Jun 07, 2009 10:55:17	Alright, Hogarth is indeed correct. Its just when someone says "Raging pouncing twfing dusklbade" without anything in there to suggest druid, I assume it involves Lion Totem Barbarian. Apologies.
#22 Senevri Jun 07, 2009 11:24:12	Yeah. The build, compared to original post does seem a bit ret-connish, even if it is indeed a raging, pouncing twf duskblade... :P
#23 altpersona Jun 07, 2009 11:34:28	heck, i went and rechecked surreals list o stuff, and didnt see pouncing as an option... completely forgot about druid-lions..
#24 jameswilliamogle Jun 07, 2009 12:48:00	Are there any squirrel-master builds on the boards?
#25 Senevri Jun 07, 2009 13:46:52	What do you mean, Pun-pun or Squirrel Girl? Could Squirrel Girl beat Pun-pun? Off-screen, at least?
#26 jameswilliamogle Jun 07, 2009 13:55:53	Squirrel followers, etc., to do nano-bot style tricks, on a standard druid. Here's one of my more favorite PHB1+2 Fighters. Human Fighter 20 focused on Morningstars (why? b/c they roxorz) - 19 feats Feat chains: Weapon Focus, Specialization, GWFocus, GWSpecialization, Bludgeoning Melee Mastery, Piercing Melee Mastery Power Attack, Flay, Brutal Strike, Driving Attack, Crushing Blow Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, Cleave, Great Cleave Combat Reflexes Endurance, Steadfast Determination Shield Spec, Shield Ward
#27 Senevri Jun 07, 2009 15:07:17	Squirrel Girl, then. Actually, you can do that with anything, with sufficient Handle Animal. Druids and Rangers have an advantage up to +4, and I guess Exemplar dip would work.
#28 daedhaed Jun 07, 2009 16:25:40	it's too bad you cant cast spells while in a rage. I once made a rage mage duskblade pouncing barbarian but it used the following books: RoS, CW, PHb2, Phb, and a couple of other books that i cant think of right now.
#29 posterboy Jun 09, 2009 21:21:59	Quick question regarding Minotaurs and Natural Cunning: Is there any additional benefit to a Minotuar having (Improved) Uncanny Dodge? Does Natural Cunning fill the same role?
#30 miata Jun 09, 2009 21:58:43	If you really want to play a Minotaur, have you thought about trying Monk? The Minotaur with it's racial HD and LA would already take 8 of your 14 levels, and since Exp penalties are in place, a single class progression would probably be best. The Monk is excellent for that. Furthermore, playing a large character, you would also benefit from a better unarmed damage table. The Minotaurs huge Str and Con bonus, as well as the natural AC, also work well with the class.
#31 phaedrusxy Jun 10, 2009 13:18:24	Quick question regarding Minotaurs and Natural Cunning: Is there any additional benefit to a Minotuar having (Improved) Uncanny Dodge? Does Natural Cunning fill the same role? Natural Cunning fulfills the same role as the normal Uncanny Dodge... and then some. Show In a core-only game, it's more like Uncanny Dodge + partial Combat Reflexes. In games beyond core, it is a lot better than that, as you can take Immediate actions when you'd normally be flat-footed.
#32 hogarth Jun 10, 2009 18:56:09	Natural Cunning fulfills the same role as the normal Uncanny Dodge... and then some. Not exactly. Uncanny Dodge allows you to use your Dex bonus against invisible attackers, but Natural Cunning does not.