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CORE: Wizard Vs Anything else sustained damage output

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
lordhardsize
Mar 24, 2009 12:44:11 Hello there.

I am stuck in a bit of a dispute with my group over this issue. Basically I am trying to get the 'complete' series allowed in our games under the prextext that Wizards (or rather just arcane casters in general) do more damage than anything else by such a large degree that it is pointless to play anything else at higher levels (assuming the tank / divine caster bases are already being covered).

We have a pretty strict setup going. Namely we only used the PHB 3.5, no other books at all, other than allowing people to purchase the magic items from the DMG 3.5. We also ban the leadership feat, use of the spells that are generally considered broken such as wish, gate, time stop etc. All evil alignments, and even polymorph.

My position is what I have, over time, learned to be the sad truth, that even with all these restrictions in place, you really cant get close to the damage output of an arcane caster. The other peoples positions are the spells per day limit of arcane casters mean they do *less* damage that anyone else. I would think that would be the case only under completely unrealistic conditions such as the caster never gets a chance to sleep to regain spells in this mythical dungeon, where there are more encounters than you are ever likely to come accross, and the other classes get extremely lucky in the fact that they never seem to miss, and usually get to full attack.

I tried to do a google search, but most of what came out were examples abusing the banned spells, or using a lot of material other than core etc etc, most importantly, its always max level stuff, rather than just at higher levels (say above 11th, since we have never kept a game going long enough to reach l20), not quite what I was looking for.

Now given the generally aptitute towards theory crafting present in this forums, I just know this topic has to have come up before, and there has to be a thread that contains exactly the information I want. Can anyone link me to it? Failing that, if anyone has any time to spare / loves this kind of thing perhaps you could provide me with some napkin maths? I am fully prepared to be proven wrong!

Many thanks.
#2
bitznarf
Mar 24, 2009 12:58:23
Hello there. I am stuck in a bit of a dispute with my group over this issue. Basically I am trying to get the 'complete' series allowed in our games under the prextext that Wizards (or rather just arcane casters in general) do more damage than anything else by such a large degree that it is pointless to play anything else at higher levels (assuming the tank / divine caster bases are already being covered).

Damage output isn't the scale on which class effectiveness is determined. Really it's not. Try this thread for a relatively comprehensive explanation of relative power levels. That said, power level really doesn't have much to do with a class being pointless to play. Sure they aren't as powerful but that doesn't make them pointless.
#3
lordhardsize
Mar 24, 2009 13:02:02 That is a most excellent thread that contains a lot of the information, with justifications that I was after. I am still curious about the whole damage output thing though.
#4
idontmuchcareforit
Mar 24, 2009 13:07:01 @ level 20...
disintegrate does 40d6 damage, maximized disintegrate does 240 damage.
turn 1
assay spell resistance or whatever you need to do. If it's the bbeg i'll toss a mordenkainen's disjunction if he looks buffed.
turn 2
maximized disintegrate, belt of battle: maximized disintegrate, celerity: maximized disintegrate
720 damage gg.
did that against a CR 32 colossal II red dragon. I was in a party of 5, the other 4 members did collectively less than half of the damage that i did. You could use a metamagic rod of quicken also since the swift action wasn't used up.
pretty hard to keep up with that...
#5
jameswilliamogle
Mar 24, 2009 13:32:51
@ level 20...
disintegrate does 40d6 damage, maximized disintegrate does 240 damage.
turn 1
assay spell resistance or whatever you need to do. If it's the bbeg i'll toss a mordenkainen's disjunction if he looks buffed.
turn 2
maximized disintegrate, belt of battle: maximized disintegrate, celerity: maximized disintegrate
720 damage gg.
did that against a CR 32 colossal II red dragon. I was in a party of 5, the other 4 members did collectively less than half of the damage that i did. You could use a metamagic rod of quicken also since the swift action wasn't used up.
pretty hard to keep up with that...

The "Core" thing kind of messes up some of that, but the point is valid. Metamagic rods of maximize do amp up the damage output.

Outright "kill" effects are more effective in core. Take a core L20 Half-Orc Barbarian w/ Power Attack, who started w/ a 20 Str, boosted it at every level, is raging, has a +6 Str item, bought and used a +5 Str tome, and has a +5 Vicious Greatsword. So, that makes for a Str of 38, +19 to hit, and +26 damage (normally and +66 while using full power attack), and 4 attacks per round. Assuming that all attacks hit, he's doing up to 360 damage per round. The Wizard casts Plane Shift, or Resilient Sphere, or Wail of the Banshee, for example, targeting whatever the low save for that monster is.
#6
bitznarf
Mar 24, 2009 13:59:52 'Save or lose' are overrated :P Though I suppose that if you are looking for 'kill shot' type of comparisons they work.
#7
jameswilliamogle
Mar 24, 2009 14:11:25 To be honest, I'm not sure that in core that an amped up Barbarian would kill something any slower than a Wizard with their removal of Wish, Gate, Timestop, (and I'm guessing Shapechange). The Wizard could mess up the creature in other ways much more effectively, though (to the point where it doesn't matter how much damage per round the Wizard would do).
#8
Treantmonklvl20
Mar 24, 2009 14:38:30
@ level 20...
disintegrate does 40d6 damage, maximized disintegrate does 240 damage.
turn 1
assay spell resistance or whatever you need to do. If it's the bbeg i'll toss a mordenkainen's disjunction if he looks buffed.
turn 2
maximized disintegrate, belt of battle: maximized disintegrate, celerity: maximized disintegrate
720 damage gg.
did that against a CR 32 colossal II red dragon. I was in a party of 5, the other 4 members did collectively less than half of the damage that i did. You could use a metamagic rod of quicken also since the swift action wasn't used up.
pretty hard to keep up with that...

Technically what you did is illegal unless you found some trick that I am not aware of. The Celerity spell requires an immediate action, and the Belt of Battle requires a swift action, and you can't use an immediate and a swift in the same round.

I am curious however how you beat the Colossal CR 32 Red Dragon's SR (nevermind having it fail its saves) without using Assay spell resistance (since you had already double used your immediate action).

I am stuck in a bit of a dispute with my group over this issue. Basically I am trying to get the 'complete' series allowed in our games under the prextext that Wizards (or rather just arcane casters in general) do more damage than anything else by such a large degree that it is pointless to play anything else at higher levels (assuming the tank / divine caster bases are already being covered).

In Core only - the Wizard is still going to have the best damage output. However, if you include even first generation Complete (Warrior, Arcane, Adventurer, Divine) - this will shift to fighters with the inclusion of tactical feats.

However, keep in mind that once you include splat, the Wizard starts building extra layers of defence. The previously squishy wizard will become quite hard indeed.

Spellcasters being tougher than non-spellcasters is simply a fact of 3.5. There are of course some advantages to the non-caster - but overall, it's generally accepted that from an optimization standpoint - spellcasting gives you many more options.
#9
idontmuchcareforit
Mar 24, 2009 14:49:31 The text for immediate action (as per complete adventurer) stipulates that it is the equivilent of using your swift action for your next round. So what I did is not illegal, though it is unsustainable.

My character had a lot of spell pen, but i really didn't need it, i used assay spell resistance my first turn, and i think i moved with the rest of it. A warlock used a scroll M's Disjunction. It's fort save was low because of con damage via melee weapons.(we planned this out for a while)
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Also, look at it this way. What does your finely honed charging supreme strength barbarian do against a flying foe with a ranged attack? A foe on the other side of a chasm? An ethereal foe? A foe immune to physical damage? A large group of small foes? Any foe whose attacks target will saves? An invisible foe? A foe with a large amount of DR? A locked door? A pit trap?

A wizard can do all of these things, and at the same time. More importantly, a wizard can BE all of these things.
#10
jameswilliamogle
Mar 24, 2009 14:57:00
In Core only - the Wizard is still going to have the best damage output.

Is this true, though, w/ his group's removal of Shapechange, Polymorph, Timestop, and Wish (EDIT: and Gate), in core? I've been thinking about it, and I'm not seeing how it could be the case on damage basis alone (you're the expert though, so I'm sure you're seeing something I'm not). If we include "debuff, then damage" tactics, then I agree completely, though, but the impulse damage of a warrior-type is going to be really strong over that time frame, too.

Its kind of an odd question; its not a "wizard vs. warrior: who wins" thread; its "who is better at one particular aspect" of DnD with house rules added on, too.
#11
sofawall
Mar 24, 2009 14:59:34 Even with just Complete Warrior melee starts to destroy spellcasters in damage. Shock Trooper+Frenzied Berserker=dead BBEG. Add Leap Attack and a Valorous Weapon, that's some mighty damage.

As for wizards, in core, assuming the whole 4 encounters per day thing, they're going to win. Not only will they likely just plain do more damage, they have the "Imma f*** you up!" spells that let them get their optimal situations, at will. Fighter, on the other hand, who knows when they'll be able to full attack :D

EDIT: Dammit jameswilliamninja... He didn't say Shapechange, but I'm assuming he meant P, PAO and Shapechange.
#12
jameswilliamogle
Mar 24, 2009 15:01:20
As for wizards, in core, assuming the whole 4 encounters per day thing, they're going to win. Not only will they likely just plain do more damage, they have the "Imma f*** you up!" spells that let them get their optimal situations, at will. Fighter, on the other hand, who knows when they'll be able to full attack :D

I agree they're stronger, but how are they dealing the damage in core thats comparable to a Fighter w/ Power Attack? d6 / level damage for an entire spell slot every round?
#13
Treantmonklvl20
Mar 24, 2009 15:17:19
Is this true, though, w/ his group's removal of Shapechange, Polymorph, Timestop, and Wish (EDIT: and Gate), in core? I've been thinking about it, and I'm not seeing how it could be the case on damage basis alone (you're the expert though, so I'm sure you're seeing something I'm not). If we include "debuff, then damage" tactics, then I agree completely, though, but the impulse damage of a warrior-type is going to be really strong over that time frame, too.

Its kind of an odd question; its not a "wizard vs. warrior: who wins" thread; its "who is better at one particular aspect" of DnD with house rules added on, too.

I'm merely looking at the limitations of damage output by non-casters in core only.

This won't hold at low level, but I would say by 8th level or so, the wizard who focuses on spells that do blast can outdamage a core-only non-caster. Neither is doing massive damage mind you - but core only non-casters really do suck.

However, why play a blaster to do damage?

A straight core wizard (or any dedicated caster for that matter) with Augment Summoning can throw sustainable damage that the non-casters won't match onto the battlefield...(add on Planar Binding to make it more uneven). At level 5 the summoner gets Celestial Bisons, and by level 12, he's throwing several summons per round plus is using a Planar Binding for added impact (maybe a Barghest to "rage" all the summons)

Non-casters can really start outputting damage once you bring in splat (Heedless charge, Dungeoncrasher, Lion-totem barbarians, Leap attack, Goliaths, etc) - but beforehand, the damage output of a non-caster is pretty limited.
#14
sofawall
Mar 24, 2009 15:46:24
I agree they're stronger, but how are they dealing the damage in core thats comparable to a Fighter w/ Power Attack? d6 / level damage for an entire spell slot every round?

Fighter does, what, +2 Holy Shocking Flaming Frost Greatsword of Speed?

2d6+2d6+1d6+1d6+1d6=7d6, +40 Power Attack +2 weapon +, what, 9 from str?

At 5 attacks, that's 35d6+255, although bear in mind the last couple are almost never going to hit. Average, assuming all hit, 377.5. Hmm, never realized it was that high. Fighters may have a bit of a chance.
#15
carnivore
Mar 24, 2009 16:09:13 actually Archers can be relatively Consistent with Damage output thier entire careers

Wood Elf
Ranger 2/ Fighter 12/ Horizon Walker 6
BAB +20

Attributes: (32 point buy)

28 Str(14 +2 Racial +6 Belt +1 level +5 Tome)
30 Dex(14 +2 Racial +6 Gloves +4 Levels +4 Tome)
18 Con(16 -2 Racial +4 Amulet)
10 Int (12-2 Racial)
12 Wis(12)
8 Cha(8)

Ranger 1 ................ Endurance, Track(ranger bonus)
Ranger 2 ................ Rapid Shot(ranger Bonus)
Fighter 1 ................ Weapon Focus(Composite Longbow), Point Blank Shot(Fighter bonus)
Fighter 2 ................ Precise Shot(Fighter bonus)
Fighter 3
Fighter 4 ................ Manyshot ,Weapon Specialization(Composite longbow)(Fighter bonus)
Horizon Walker 1
Horizon Walker 2
Horizon Walker 3 ..... Improved unarmed Strike
Horizon Walker 4
Horizon Walker 5
Horizon Walker 6 ..... Deflect Arrows
Fighter 5
Fighter 6 ............... Far Shot(Fighter bonus)
Fighter 7 ............... Improved Precise Shot
Fighter 8 ............... Greater Weapon Focus(Composite Longbow)(Fighter bonus)
Fighter 9
Fighter 10 ............. Quicken Spell-like abillity(Dimension Door), Snatch Arrows(Fighter bonus)
Fighter 11
Fighter 12 ............. Greater Weapon Specialization(Composite longbow)(Fighter bonus)

Equipment:
201300gp +1 Shocking Flaming Frost Holy Axiomatic Wounding Composite Longbow(+9 Str)
27000gp 9x Greater magic weapon +5 (oil)
22060 gp +2 Luckblade(0 wishes)+1 Luck to all saves, and reroll any one Roll 1/day
3350gp 50 Adamantine Arrows
700gp 50 Cold Iron Arrows
352gp 50 Alchemical Silver Arrows

247500gp +9 Inherent to Attributes
36000gp +6 belt of Str
46000gp +6 Gloves of Dex + Gloves of Storing
16000gp +4 Amulet of Con
89000gp +8 Bracers of Armor and greater bracers of Archery: +2 competence bonus on attack rolls and a +1 competence bonus on damage rolls with Bow
17500gp Boots of Speed(haste 10 rounds/day) +Boots of Striding and Springing(+10 land Speed, +5 Competence Jump)
25000gp +5 Cloak of Resistance
5000gp Dusty rose Ioun Stone....+1 Insight to AC
20000gp Ring of Invisibility: By activating this simple silver ring, the wearer can benefit from invisibility, as the spell.
2000gp Handy haversack
1800gp Efficient Quiver
2500gp Ring of Sustenance
1500gp 2x Potions Heroism(+2 morale bonus on attack rolls, saves, and skill checks)

758462gp spent .... 1538gp left

Buffed Combat Abilities:

BAB +20
Attack: BAB+20 + 1 Haste + 1 Insight +2 Competence +5 Enhancement+ 10 Dex +2 Morale +2 (GWF+WF)= +43 Attack

Full Attack with Rapid Shot and Haste @ 330'= +37/+37/+37/+32/+27/+22

Damage:
4.5 Composite Arrow + 2 Morale +1 Insight + 1 Competence +9 Str +4 Wpn Spclz + +7 Holy +7 Axiomatic +10.5 Elemental = average 46 points of Damage + 1pt Con damage with each hit

276 Damage per round

Unbuffed Combat abilities.... All day long:
BAB +20
Attack: BAB+20 + 1 Insight +2 Competence +1 Enhancement+ 10 Dex +2 (GWF+WF)= +36 Attack

Full Attack with Rapid Shot @ 330'= +30/+30/+30/+25/+20/+15

Damage:
4.5 Composite Arrow +1 Insight + 1 Competence +9 Str +4 Wpn Spclz + +7 Holy +7 Axiomatic +10.5 Elemental = average 44 points of Damage + 1pt Con damage with each hit

264 damage per round..... all day long
(special Note: for every 2 arrows that hit the same target.. it takes 2 Con Damage = 1xHD extra damage, this can be very large especially if the creature has a lot of HD)

not as much as an Arcane caster can do but not bad... especially if you have a lot of Encounters, or have Long Duration Encounters(waves of attackers over the course of several minutes)

:D
#16
jameswilliamogle
Mar 24, 2009 16:16:23
Fighters may have a bit of a chance.

Thats kind of my thinking (at this one particular aspect with some key spells gone); the sword should be +5 (since his ally casters could do GMW). I'm trying to crunch the numbers, and I'm not seeing a Wizard doing more than 240 pulse damage (using either a Maximize Rod w/ Disintigrate or a 9th level slot). But I haven't really crunched the Barghest + summons numbers, yet.

Carn's build looks good, too.
#17
carnivore
Mar 24, 2009 16:16:42 with approx 9600 round(awake..not counting sleep periods)

@264 damage/round = 2534400 damage per day.... assuming you dont run out of arrows or targets

requires 57600 arrows = cost 2880gp extra... if my build got rid of the 2 potions of Heroism.. he could do it
:D
#18
Dictum_Mortuum
Mar 24, 2009 16:41:09 Half orc wizard with 20 initial strength, etc, casting haste and transformation :p

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 lordhardsize Mar 24, 2009 12:44:11	Hello there. I am stuck in a bit of a dispute with my group over this issue. Basically I am trying to get the 'complete' series allowed in our games under the prextext that Wizards (or rather just arcane casters in general) do more damage than anything else by such a large degree that it is pointless to play anything else at higher levels (assuming the tank / divine caster bases are already being covered). We have a pretty strict setup going. Namely we only used the PHB 3.5, no other books at all, other than allowing people to purchase the magic items from the DMG 3.5. We also ban the leadership feat, use of the spells that are generally considered broken such as wish, gate, time stop etc. All evil alignments, and even polymorph. My position is what I have, over time, learned to be the sad truth, that even with all these restrictions in place, you really cant get close to the damage output of an arcane caster. The other peoples positions are the spells per day limit of arcane casters mean they do less damage that anyone else. I would think that would be the case only under completely unrealistic conditions such as the caster never gets a chance to sleep to regain spells in this mythical dungeon, where there are more encounters than you are ever likely to come accross, and the other classes get extremely lucky in the fact that they never seem to miss, and usually get to full attack. I tried to do a google search, but most of what came out were examples abusing the banned spells, or using a lot of material other than core etc etc, most importantly, its always max level stuff, rather than just at higher levels (say above 11th, since we have never kept a game going long enough to reach l20), not quite what I was looking for. Now given the generally aptitute towards theory crafting present in this forums, I just know this topic has to have come up before, and there has to be a thread that contains exactly the information I want. Can anyone link me to it? Failing that, if anyone has any time to spare / loves this kind of thing perhaps you could provide me with some napkin maths? I am fully prepared to be proven wrong! Many thanks.
#2 bitznarf Mar 24, 2009 12:58:23	Hello there. I am stuck in a bit of a dispute with my group over this issue. Basically I am trying to get the 'complete' series allowed in our games under the prextext that Wizards (or rather just arcane casters in general) do more damage than anything else by such a large degree that it is pointless to play anything else at higher levels (assuming the tank / divine caster bases are already being covered). Damage output isn't the scale on which class effectiveness is determined. Really it's not. Try this thread for a relatively comprehensive explanation of relative power levels. That said, power level really doesn't have much to do with a class being pointless to play. Sure they aren't as powerful but that doesn't make them pointless.
#3 lordhardsize Mar 24, 2009 13:02:02	That is a most excellent thread that contains a lot of the information, with justifications that I was after. I am still curious about the whole damage output thing though.
#4 idontmuchcareforit Mar 24, 2009 13:07:01	@ level 20... disintegrate does 40d6 damage, maximized disintegrate does 240 damage. turn 1 assay spell resistance or whatever you need to do. If it's the bbeg i'll toss a mordenkainen's disjunction if he looks buffed. turn 2 maximized disintegrate, belt of battle: maximized disintegrate, celerity: maximized disintegrate 720 damage gg. did that against a CR 32 colossal II red dragon. I was in a party of 5, the other 4 members did collectively less than half of the damage that i did. You could use a metamagic rod of quicken also since the swift action wasn't used up. pretty hard to keep up with that...
#5 jameswilliamogle Mar 24, 2009 13:32:51	@ level 20... disintegrate does 40d6 damage, maximized disintegrate does 240 damage. turn 1 assay spell resistance or whatever you need to do. If it's the bbeg i'll toss a mordenkainen's disjunction if he looks buffed. turn 2 maximized disintegrate, belt of battle: maximized disintegrate, celerity: maximized disintegrate 720 damage gg. did that against a CR 32 colossal II red dragon. I was in a party of 5, the other 4 members did collectively less than half of the damage that i did. You could use a metamagic rod of quicken also since the swift action wasn't used up. pretty hard to keep up with that... The "Core" thing kind of messes up some of that, but the point is valid. Metamagic rods of maximize do amp up the damage output. Outright "kill" effects are more effective in core. Take a core L20 Half-Orc Barbarian w/ Power Attack, who started w/ a 20 Str, boosted it at every level, is raging, has a +6 Str item, bought and used a +5 Str tome, and has a +5 Vicious Greatsword. So, that makes for a Str of 38, +19 to hit, and +26 damage (normally and +66 while using full power attack), and 4 attacks per round. Assuming that all attacks hit, he's doing up to 360 damage per round. The Wizard casts Plane Shift, or Resilient Sphere, or Wail of the Banshee, for example, targeting whatever the low save for that monster is.
#6 bitznarf Mar 24, 2009 13:59:52	'Save or lose' are overrated :P Though I suppose that if you are looking for 'kill shot' type of comparisons they work.
#7 jameswilliamogle Mar 24, 2009 14:11:25	To be honest, I'm not sure that in core that an amped up Barbarian would kill something any slower than a Wizard with their removal of Wish, Gate, Timestop, (and I'm guessing Shapechange). The Wizard could mess up the creature in other ways much more effectively, though (to the point where it doesn't matter how much damage per round the Wizard would do).
#8 Treantmonklvl20 Mar 24, 2009 14:38:30	@ level 20... disintegrate does 40d6 damage, maximized disintegrate does 240 damage. turn 1 assay spell resistance or whatever you need to do. If it's the bbeg i'll toss a mordenkainen's disjunction if he looks buffed. turn 2 maximized disintegrate, belt of battle: maximized disintegrate, celerity: maximized disintegrate 720 damage gg. did that against a CR 32 colossal II red dragon. I was in a party of 5, the other 4 members did collectively less than half of the damage that i did. You could use a metamagic rod of quicken also since the swift action wasn't used up. pretty hard to keep up with that... Technically what you did is illegal unless you found some trick that I am not aware of. The Celerity spell requires an immediate action, and the Belt of Battle requires a swift action, and you can't use an immediate and a swift in the same round. I am curious however how you beat the Colossal CR 32 Red Dragon's SR (nevermind having it fail its saves) without using Assay spell resistance (since you had already double used your immediate action). I am stuck in a bit of a dispute with my group over this issue. Basically I am trying to get the 'complete' series allowed in our games under the prextext that Wizards (or rather just arcane casters in general) do more damage than anything else by such a large degree that it is pointless to play anything else at higher levels (assuming the tank / divine caster bases are already being covered). In Core only - the Wizard is still going to have the best damage output. However, if you include even first generation Complete (Warrior, Arcane, Adventurer, Divine) - this will shift to fighters with the inclusion of tactical feats. However, keep in mind that once you include splat, the Wizard starts building extra layers of defence. The previously squishy wizard will become quite hard indeed. Spellcasters being tougher than non-spellcasters is simply a fact of 3.5. There are of course some advantages to the non-caster - but overall, it's generally accepted that from an optimization standpoint - spellcasting gives you many more options.
#9 idontmuchcareforit Mar 24, 2009 14:49:31	The text for immediate action (as per complete adventurer) stipulates that it is the equivilent of using your swift action for your next round. So what I did is not illegal, though it is unsustainable. My character had a lot of spell pen, but i really didn't need it, i used assay spell resistance my first turn, and i think i moved with the rest of it. A warlock used a scroll M's Disjunction. It's fort save was low because of con damage via melee weapons.(we planned this out for a while) ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Also, look at it this way. What does your finely honed charging supreme strength barbarian do against a flying foe with a ranged attack? A foe on the other side of a chasm? An ethereal foe? A foe immune to physical damage? A large group of small foes? Any foe whose attacks target will saves? An invisible foe? A foe with a large amount of DR? A locked door? A pit trap? A wizard can do all of these things, and at the same time. More importantly, a wizard can BE all of these things.
#10 jameswilliamogle Mar 24, 2009 14:57:00	In Core only - the Wizard is still going to have the best damage output. Is this true, though, w/ his group's removal of Shapechange, Polymorph, Timestop, and Wish (EDIT: and Gate), in core? I've been thinking about it, and I'm not seeing how it could be the case on damage basis alone (you're the expert though, so I'm sure you're seeing something I'm not). If we include "debuff, then damage" tactics, then I agree completely, though, but the impulse damage of a warrior-type is going to be really strong over that time frame, too. Its kind of an odd question; its not a "wizard vs. warrior: who wins" thread; its "who is better at one particular aspect" of DnD with house rules added on, too.
#11 sofawall Mar 24, 2009 14:59:34	Even with just Complete Warrior melee starts to destroy spellcasters in damage. Shock Trooper+Frenzied Berserker=dead BBEG. Add Leap Attack and a Valorous Weapon, that's some mighty damage. As for wizards, in core, assuming the whole 4 encounters per day thing, they're going to win. Not only will they likely just plain do more damage, they have the "Imma f*** you up!" spells that let them get their optimal situations, at will. Fighter, on the other hand, who knows when they'll be able to full attack :D EDIT: Dammit jameswilliamninja... He didn't say Shapechange, but I'm assuming he meant P, PAO and Shapechange.
#12 jameswilliamogle Mar 24, 2009 15:01:20	As for wizards, in core, assuming the whole 4 encounters per day thing, they're going to win. Not only will they likely just plain do more damage, they have the "Imma f*** you up!" spells that let them get their optimal situations, at will. Fighter, on the other hand, who knows when they'll be able to full attack :D I agree they're stronger, but how are they dealing the damage in core thats comparable to a Fighter w/ Power Attack? d6 / level damage for an entire spell slot every round?
#13 Treantmonklvl20 Mar 24, 2009 15:17:19	Is this true, though, w/ his group's removal of Shapechange, Polymorph, Timestop, and Wish (EDIT: and Gate), in core? I've been thinking about it, and I'm not seeing how it could be the case on damage basis alone (you're the expert though, so I'm sure you're seeing something I'm not). If we include "debuff, then damage" tactics, then I agree completely, though, but the impulse damage of a warrior-type is going to be really strong over that time frame, too. Its kind of an odd question; its not a "wizard vs. warrior: who wins" thread; its "who is better at one particular aspect" of DnD with house rules added on, too. I'm merely looking at the limitations of damage output by non-casters in core only. This won't hold at low level, but I would say by 8th level or so, the wizard who focuses on spells that do blast can outdamage a core-only non-caster. Neither is doing massive damage mind you - but core only non-casters really do suck. However, why play a blaster to do damage? A straight core wizard (or any dedicated caster for that matter) with Augment Summoning can throw sustainable damage that the non-casters won't match onto the battlefield...(add on Planar Binding to make it more uneven). At level 5 the summoner gets Celestial Bisons, and by level 12, he's throwing several summons per round plus is using a Planar Binding for added impact (maybe a Barghest to "rage" all the summons) Non-casters can really start outputting damage once you bring in splat (Heedless charge, Dungeoncrasher, Lion-totem barbarians, Leap attack, Goliaths, etc) - but beforehand, the damage output of a non-caster is pretty limited.
#14 sofawall Mar 24, 2009 15:46:24	I agree they're stronger, but how are they dealing the damage in core thats comparable to a Fighter w/ Power Attack? d6 / level damage for an entire spell slot every round? Fighter does, what, +2 Holy Shocking Flaming Frost Greatsword of Speed? 2d6+2d6+1d6+1d6+1d6=7d6, +40 Power Attack +2 weapon +, what, 9 from str? At 5 attacks, that's 35d6+255, although bear in mind the last couple are almost never going to hit. Average, assuming all hit, 377.5. Hmm, never realized it was that high. Fighters may have a bit of a chance.
#15 carnivore Mar 24, 2009 16:09:13	actually Archers can be relatively Consistent with Damage output thier entire careers Wood Elf Ranger 2/ Fighter 12/ Horizon Walker 6 BAB +20 Attributes: (32 point buy) 28 Str(14 +2 Racial +6 Belt +1 level +5 Tome) 30 Dex(14 +2 Racial +6 Gloves +4 Levels +4 Tome) 18 Con(16 -2 Racial +4 Amulet) 10 Int (12-2 Racial) 12 Wis(12) 8 Cha(8) Ranger 1 ................ Endurance, Track(ranger bonus) Ranger 2 ................ Rapid Shot(ranger Bonus) Fighter 1 ................ Weapon Focus(Composite Longbow), Point Blank Shot(Fighter bonus) Fighter 2 ................ Precise Shot(Fighter bonus) Fighter 3 Fighter 4 ................ Manyshot ,Weapon Specialization(Composite longbow)(Fighter bonus) Horizon Walker 1 Horizon Walker 2 Horizon Walker 3 ..... Improved unarmed Strike Horizon Walker 4 Horizon Walker 5 Horizon Walker 6 ..... Deflect Arrows Fighter 5 Fighter 6 ............... Far Shot(Fighter bonus) Fighter 7 ............... Improved Precise Shot Fighter 8 ............... Greater Weapon Focus(Composite Longbow)(Fighter bonus) Fighter 9 Fighter 10 ............. Quicken Spell-like abillity(Dimension Door), Snatch Arrows(Fighter bonus) Fighter 11 Fighter 12 ............. Greater Weapon Specialization(Composite longbow)(Fighter bonus) Equipment: 201300gp +1 Shocking Flaming Frost Holy Axiomatic Wounding Composite Longbow(+9 Str) 27000gp 9x Greater magic weapon +5 (oil) 22060 gp +2 Luckblade(0 wishes)+1 Luck to all saves, and reroll any one Roll 1/day 3350gp 50 Adamantine Arrows 700gp 50 Cold Iron Arrows 352gp 50 Alchemical Silver Arrows 247500gp +9 Inherent to Attributes 36000gp +6 belt of Str 46000gp +6 Gloves of Dex + Gloves of Storing 16000gp +4 Amulet of Con 89000gp +8 Bracers of Armor and greater bracers of Archery: +2 competence bonus on attack rolls and a +1 competence bonus on damage rolls with Bow 17500gp Boots of Speed(haste 10 rounds/day) +Boots of Striding and Springing(+10 land Speed, +5 Competence Jump) 25000gp +5 Cloak of Resistance 5000gp Dusty rose Ioun Stone....+1 Insight to AC 20000gp Ring of Invisibility: By activating this simple silver ring, the wearer can benefit from invisibility, as the spell. 2000gp Handy haversack 1800gp Efficient Quiver 2500gp Ring of Sustenance 1500gp 2x Potions Heroism(+2 morale bonus on attack rolls, saves, and skill checks) 758462gp spent .... 1538gp left Buffed Combat Abilities: BAB +20 Attack: BAB+20 + 1 Haste + 1 Insight +2 Competence +5 Enhancement+ 10 Dex +2 Morale +2 (GWF+WF)= +43 Attack Full Attack with Rapid Shot and Haste @ 330'= +37/+37/+37/+32/+27/+22 Damage: 4.5 Composite Arrow + 2 Morale +1 Insight + 1 Competence +9 Str +4 Wpn Spclz + +7 Holy +7 Axiomatic +10.5 Elemental = average 46 points of Damage + 1pt Con damage with each hit 276 Damage per round Unbuffed Combat abilities.... All day long: BAB +20 Attack: BAB+20 + 1 Insight +2 Competence +1 Enhancement+ 10 Dex +2 (GWF+WF)= +36 Attack Full Attack with Rapid Shot @ 330'= +30/+30/+30/+25/+20/+15 Damage: 4.5 Composite Arrow +1 Insight + 1 Competence +9 Str +4 Wpn Spclz + +7 Holy +7 Axiomatic +10.5 Elemental = average 44 points of Damage + 1pt Con damage with each hit 264 damage per round..... all day long (special Note: for every 2 arrows that hit the same target.. it takes 2 Con Damage = 1xHD extra damage, this can be very large especially if the creature has a lot of HD) not as much as an Arcane caster can do but not bad... especially if you have a lot of Encounters, or have Long Duration Encounters(waves of attackers over the course of several minutes) :D
#16 jameswilliamogle Mar 24, 2009 16:16:23	Fighters may have a bit of a chance. Thats kind of my thinking (at this one particular aspect with some key spells gone); the sword should be +5 (since his ally casters could do GMW). I'm trying to crunch the numbers, and I'm not seeing a Wizard doing more than 240 pulse damage (using either a Maximize Rod w/ Disintigrate or a 9th level slot). But I haven't really crunched the Barghest + summons numbers, yet. Carn's build looks good, too.
#17 carnivore Mar 24, 2009 16:16:42	with approx 9600 round(awake..not counting sleep periods) @264 damage/round = 2534400 damage per day.... assuming you dont run out of arrows or targets requires 57600 arrows = cost 2880gp extra... if my build got rid of the 2 potions of Heroism.. he could do it :D
#18 Dictum_Mortuum Mar 24, 2009 16:41:09	Half orc wizard with 20 initial strength, etc, casting haste and transformation :p