Could use help optimizing a few encounters, CR 11-15 range. - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Could use help optimizing a few encounters, CR 11-15 range.

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Senevri
Jul 02, 2009 13:56:33 Wow, long title.
*ahem*

*edit* This campaign.

I have a couple of encounters planned, for either the trip to Pitchfield, or from there to the Vast Swamp.

1. A noble bandit challenges the PCs to a duel, over a certain amount of wealth.
This might be a good place for me to drop Supernal Clarity on the PCs, but anyway... I am looking for a defensive fighting duelist-not-the-class. Deadly Defense, at least, maybe some feat generation. Light or no armor, a feathered hat, and a rapier. As effectively a single-opponent encounter (additional archers in surrounding woods) this could be in CR 12-14 range, I think.

2. Orcs are scary, don't want to fight them!
I've been thinking of Orcs after exposure to WH40K, especially from other species' point-of-view, and I want to bring some of that level of terror to DnD. So, an orc warband, an individual doesn't need to be that tough, but somehow this encounter should do to orcs what Tucker did to kobolds. Tiger-blooded, bull-rush, player ping-pong? I think the orcs could be up to CR 4 individually - helps when calculating XP. That, or power attack + leap attack, maybe.

Any ideas? Thanks.
#2
pithica
Jul 02, 2009 15:12:36 For #1, a simple Daring Outlaw build fits very well, thematically. Built well, it can also be quite the imposing challenge. A human Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 11 with the Penetrating Strike ACF could work quite well for you. I have a fellow player in my current game playing that (only as a halfling) and he's having both a great time, and very little difficulty keeping up. Just be sure to rapier/dagger it with the TWF tree, and maybe Dual Strike or TWR for extra damage. Add in a little UMD so he can activate a Persistant Blade effect (just before combat) so that he's always flanking, and even your necropolitan ur-priest is going to take some damage from his 7d6 sneak attack.

For #2, in the same campaign, we have a half-orc player playing a Bard-barian, that works EXTREMELY well for tribal situations, as you describe. Something like: Savage Bard 5/Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 1/Battle Howler of Gruumsh 5, optimized a bit for Inspire courage, could pose a serious challenge with even just level 1 and 2 warrior followers. Give a handful of them Bows and/or Javelins, and have them harry from ranged (with the +6 or so to attacks/damage the IC is granting) while a few close for melee and flank/aid another on whomever the main guy is charge-stomping, and you could potentially wreck the party. Battle Howler is in dragon 311, it's honestly a bit overpowered, but considering how much it otherwise sucks to be a half-orc/orc, I think that it ends up being balanced.

Either can pose serious challenges to even a well-prepared party.
#3
Senevri
Jul 02, 2009 16:43:08 #1, no Swashbuckler.
I guess I could go PF Rogue 4 (which is mildly stronger than SRD Rogue 4) / Warblade 8, or something like that... It is, actually, what I've been considering. I guess sufficient BAB for Robilar's Gambit would work nice. Combine with 5 ranks of tumble and Deadly Defense for +3 AC, +1d6 damage, for -4 to hit, which could be taken back with Vexing Flanker + Clarion Commander. That's way too many feats, though.

I was thinking Einhander, but in the end, that's just a flat +2 to AC, at the cost of losing off-hand attacks. It would help the low AC, however... Pearl of Black Doubt?
Rogue 8/Warblade 4? Not too many maneuvers, decent amount of SA dice, Dancing Mongoose.... TWF, gloves of balanced hands....

#2, let's say I go with... 8 4th-level barbarians (still give XP even individually), which is CR 10, and one 12th-level warboss, making it a CR 13 encounter, which would be about right when there's 5 PCs of 12th level.

Orc (ork) barbarians:
Feats: Tiger-blooded, Vexing Flanker. Equipment: Mwk Greataxe and Mwk throwing axe, or some thrown weapon which nets STR bonus.

STR 22 while raging. This is a base +11 to hit with mwk, and the best AC of the bunch is 28, while others have 26. Non-trivial at that point, but +2 from charge and +3 from the Warboss means a decent to-hit chance.

Warboss: elite array (savage)Bard 5/Barbarian 5/Warblade 1. CR 12.
stats: str 20 dex 13 con 14 int 6 wis 8 cha 12
Feats: Melodic Casting, Vexing Flanker, Skill Focus(Intimidate), 7 ,White Raven Defense, Clarion Commander
Spells: (4/2 per day, 4/3 known)
1st -- Inspirational Boost, Focusing Chant, ?, ?
2nd -- Bull's Strength, ?, ?
Stances: Leading the Charge
Strikes: Battle Leader's Charge
Boosts: Lion's Roar
1 more
Max ranks in Intimidate (15) +1 Cha, +3 SF = success on a 1 for per.flank. That's a +17 hit chance on henches, or charging at +19, for +15 points of damage

Idea here is to boost everyone, intimidate an opponent, charge them, thus granting +6 on damage for every charger, and additional +4 to hit.
So, To-hit chance is from +14 to +18, with additional +1 to +7 situational, with damage from +5 to +25 on hit. and weapon. So, it's more like +7 to +27...

A vanilla orc would have +7 to ´+9 to hit, +2 more on perpetual flanked opponents, with up to +13 on damage. If my math is correct, I'm sleeepy.

Not sure if Vexing Flanker or Power Attack should be there.
In any case, that's one idea.
#4
croxley_dup
Jul 02, 2009 16:53:34 Just curious.. Why no Swashbuckler?
#5
Senevri
Jul 02, 2009 17:13:02
Just curious.. Why no Swashbuckler?

Simple: No book. It's a honest, old-fashioned pen-and-paper game. A 200yen calculator is the only piece of high-tech used in the table, right now. We actually don't have any of the completes. Not by default, anyway. As I'm the DM I could allow pieces from them, but I'm not going to use stuff the Players don't have easy access to.

Okay, TWF, dodge, combat expertise, deadly defense, melee evasion, WR defense, Clarion commander.
Wait, I can get dodge, mobility, combat expertise, weapon finesse and, say, combat reflexes for free with Rogue Talents... That leaves me with at least two feats. Suggestions? vexing flanker, telling blow?

Using a greatsword, battleaxe or halberd with the orcs would up AC by 1, I guess. Halberd is d10 2h, so I guess that could be it.
#6
Wyvernhand
Jul 02, 2009 18:25:29 Specially cross-bred (in-bred?) orcs known for their shear size and brute strenght. Give them Powerful Build, maybe as a feat or something (similar to Jotunbrud, but for orcs). Then give them the typical Power Attack, Imp Bullrush, Knockback combo. Maybe Shocktrooper if you are going for distance. Dungeoncrasher for the lulz. Back em up with a Bard or Battlehowler (as mentioned above) with a wand or staff of Wall of Fire that his mooks can knock people though.

I'm glad I'm not one of your PCs...
#7
emy
Jul 02, 2009 20:23:07 Do you have Dungeonscape? Because a Factotum/Warblade could totally be a duelist.
#8
Senevri
Jul 03, 2009 3:12:39 Factotum is available, yes.

Huh. Didn't even consider that. I'm a bit worried about too much complexity. A Factotum 8/Warblade 4 would only have 5 inspiration points, though.

Want nasty, though?

Orc Crusader, CR 1
a total of 6 HP...
But, with 5 points in delayed damage pool, Stone Bones, Crusader's strike, Martial Spirit. If you don't deal 11 points of damage in single hit, they very well may cure themselves back to full health on their turn. Fun, for CR1.
#9
Senevri
Jul 03, 2009 17:40:42 I am... a bit underwhelmed; This is what the numbers crunched to:

Swashbuckling Highwayman CR 13:
Elite array Human Factotum 8/Warblade 4
Init +7 (nerveskitter) Senses perception +14
AC 22 = 10+6 armor + 4 dex + 1 amulet +1 ring (+3 defensive)
HP 78 (12 HD)
Saves fort 7, ref 16, will 2
Speed 30ft
Melee +15/+10 rapier 1d6+1/18-20/x2(Supernal Clarity) and 1d6 cold,
fighting defensively +11/+6, 1d6+1/18-20/x2 and 1d6 cold and 1d6 untyped.
Base Atk +10 CMB +10
Atk Options maneuvers, deadly defense, Factotum Cunning
Abilities: str 10 dex 16(modified 18) con 13 int 18(modified 20) wis 8 cha 12
Cunning 5 inspiration points
Maneuvers and Stances Known (IL 8th) *prepared
Blood in the Water, Pearl of Black Doubt
Emerald Razor*, Insightful Strike*, Ruby Nightmare Blade*, Disarming Strike, Death From Above*
Iron Heart Surge(from vest)
Feats: Adaptive Style, Weapon Finesse, Deadly Defense, Two-weapon fighting, Improved Init, Blade Meditation (diamond), Skill Focus(Concentration).
Spells: Nerveskitter, Wraithstrike, Dolorous Blow
Skills: Concentration +21, Intimidate +16, Jump +20
SQ/SA: Battle Clarity(Reflex), Uncanny Dodge, Battle Ardor(Crit Confirm), Cunning Insight(ex), Brains over Brawn(ex), Cunning Defense(ex), 3/day Opportunistic Piety(ex), Cunning Surge(ex)

Possessions: (27K wbl) +1 Elven Chain (6,150gp), M90 Corsair's eyepatch (3000gp), M64 Lesser Crystal of Cold Assault(3000GP), Headband of Intellect +2 (4000gp), Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (2000gp), Ring of Protection +1(2000gp), Ring of Jumping (+5) (2500gp), Gloves of Dex +2(2000gp), novice Iron Heart Vest(3000gp).

Clearly, I can't build this correctly. Halp?
Looking at it, dropping the finesse angle might help, but it ruins AC, pretty much. Ring of Jumping isn't really needed, either. That being said, if those criticals start rolling and Blood in the Water is running, anything might happen.

I'd need one more WB level to access Mongoose line. That would push this to CR 14. Defensive Fighting, while good to keep in mind, isn't really doing all that much here, though. With Einhander or more of a Tiger Claw focus, it might do more good (TC tactical feat has some interesting defensive fighting options.)
I felt I was using Vexing Flanker, WR Defense, Clarion Commander combo a bit much earlier, but it may not be that bad here, as hitting looks like to be a bit of an issue.

Improved Disarm line and Diamond Mind tactical feat could net up to +8 on disarm check, though. A disarmed opponent could be hit to recover disarming maneuver, too. Ug. So many potential paths.
#10
gorthawar
Jul 04, 2009 3:47:36 How do you get to CR13 with a lvl 12 human npc? Is it because of the elite array? They don't increase CR for the npc in the DMG that way. They actually get max hp at first lvl too. And you shouldn't do it according to the SRD either.

Monster’s ability scores based on elite array¹ +1 to CR

¹ Do not apply this increase if you advance a monster by class levels. (Monsters advanced by class levels are assumed to use the elite array.)

Perhaps I'm wrong but I always thought that all the monsters are based upon the idea that the players work with a 25pt build as well and improved all of my npc accordingly to our 28pt buy. Considering the ~45pt buy you're using I'd give him a lot more points for free.
#11
Senevri
Jul 04, 2009 4:35:43 Ah. Well now, that changes things. A bit. So I can get WB 5 and dancing mongoose, which makes a big difference, in that TWFing actually makes some sense. Hm.

In fact, it's down-right life-altering, as it requires changing feats and chosen maneuvers around.
There's no more time, so I'm using a tweaked version of this now, and see if I can manage a recurring encounter out of this.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Senevri Jul 02, 2009 13:56:33	Wow, long title. ahem edit This campaign. I have a couple of encounters planned, for either the trip to Pitchfield, or from there to the Vast Swamp. 1. A noble bandit challenges the PCs to a duel, over a certain amount of wealth. This might be a good place for me to drop Supernal Clarity on the PCs, but anyway... I am looking for a defensive fighting duelist-not-the-class. Deadly Defense, at least, maybe some feat generation. Light or no armor, a feathered hat, and a rapier. As effectively a single-opponent encounter (additional archers in surrounding woods) this could be in CR 12-14 range, I think. 2. Orcs are scary, don't want to fight them! I've been thinking of Orcs after exposure to WH40K, especially from other species' point-of-view, and I want to bring some of that level of terror to DnD. So, an orc warband, an individual doesn't need to be that tough, but somehow this encounter should do to orcs what Tucker did to kobolds. Tiger-blooded, bull-rush, player ping-pong? I think the orcs could be up to CR 4 individually - helps when calculating XP. That, or power attack + leap attack, maybe. Any ideas? Thanks.
#2 pithica Jul 02, 2009 15:12:36	For #1, a simple Daring Outlaw build fits very well, thematically. Built well, it can also be quite the imposing challenge. A human Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 11 with the Penetrating Strike ACF could work quite well for you. I have a fellow player in my current game playing that (only as a halfling) and he's having both a great time, and very little difficulty keeping up. Just be sure to rapier/dagger it with the TWF tree, and maybe Dual Strike or TWR for extra damage. Add in a little UMD so he can activate a Persistant Blade effect (just before combat) so that he's always flanking, and even your necropolitan ur-priest is going to take some damage from his 7d6 sneak attack. For #2, in the same campaign, we have a half-orc player playing a Bard-barian, that works EXTREMELY well for tribal situations, as you describe. Something like: Savage Bard 5/Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 1/Battle Howler of Gruumsh 5, optimized a bit for Inspire courage, could pose a serious challenge with even just level 1 and 2 warrior followers. Give a handful of them Bows and/or Javelins, and have them harry from ranged (with the +6 or so to attacks/damage the IC is granting) while a few close for melee and flank/aid another on whomever the main guy is charge-stomping, and you could potentially wreck the party. Battle Howler is in dragon 311, it's honestly a bit overpowered, but considering how much it otherwise sucks to be a half-orc/orc, I think that it ends up being balanced. Either can pose serious challenges to even a well-prepared party.
#3 Senevri Jul 02, 2009 16:43:08	#1, no Swashbuckler. I guess I could go PF Rogue 4 (which is mildly stronger than SRD Rogue 4) / Warblade 8, or something like that... It is, actually, what I've been considering. I guess sufficient BAB for Robilar's Gambit would work nice. Combine with 5 ranks of tumble and Deadly Defense for +3 AC, +1d6 damage, for -4 to hit, which could be taken back with Vexing Flanker + Clarion Commander. That's way too many feats, though. I was thinking Einhander, but in the end, that's just a flat +2 to AC, at the cost of losing off-hand attacks. It would help the low AC, however... Pearl of Black Doubt? Rogue 8/Warblade 4? Not too many maneuvers, decent amount of SA dice, Dancing Mongoose.... TWF, gloves of balanced hands.... #2, let's say I go with... 8 4th-level barbarians (still give XP even individually), which is CR 10, and one 12th-level warboss, making it a CR 13 encounter, which would be about right when there's 5 PCs of 12th level. Orc (ork) barbarians: Feats: Tiger-blooded, Vexing Flanker. Equipment: Mwk Greataxe and Mwk throwing axe, or some thrown weapon which nets STR bonus. STR 22 while raging. This is a base +11 to hit with mwk, and the best AC of the bunch is 28, while others have 26. Non-trivial at that point, but +2 from charge and +3 from the Warboss means a decent to-hit chance. Warboss: elite array (savage)Bard 5/Barbarian 5/Warblade 1. CR 12. stats: str 20 dex 13 con 14 int 6 wis 8 cha 12 Feats: Melodic Casting, Vexing Flanker, Skill Focus(Intimidate), 7 ,White Raven Defense, Clarion Commander Spells: (4/2 per day, 4/3 known) 1st -- Inspirational Boost, Focusing Chant, ?, ? 2nd -- Bull's Strength, ?, ? Stances: Leading the Charge Strikes: Battle Leader's Charge Boosts: Lion's Roar 1 more Max ranks in Intimidate (15) +1 Cha, +3 SF = success on a 1 for per.flank. That's a +17 hit chance on henches, or charging at +19, for +15 points of damage Idea here is to boost everyone, intimidate an opponent, charge them, thus granting +6 on damage for every charger, and additional +4 to hit. So, To-hit chance is from +14 to +18, with additional +1 to +7 situational, with damage from +5 to +25 on hit. and weapon. So, it's more like +7 to +27... A vanilla orc would have +7 to ´+9 to hit, +2 more on perpetual flanked opponents, with up to +13 on damage. If my math is correct, I'm sleeepy. Not sure if Vexing Flanker or Power Attack should be there. In any case, that's one idea.
#4 croxley_dup Jul 02, 2009 16:53:34	Just curious.. Why no Swashbuckler?
#5 Senevri Jul 02, 2009 17:13:02	Just curious.. Why no Swashbuckler? Simple: No book. It's a honest, old-fashioned pen-and-paper game. A 200yen calculator is the only piece of high-tech used in the table, right now. We actually don't have any of the completes. Not by default, anyway. As I'm the DM I could allow pieces from them, but I'm not going to use stuff the Players don't have easy access to. Okay, TWF, dodge, combat expertise, deadly defense, melee evasion, WR defense, Clarion commander. Wait, I can get dodge, mobility, combat expertise, weapon finesse and, say, combat reflexes for free with Rogue Talents... That leaves me with at least two feats. Suggestions? vexing flanker, telling blow? Using a greatsword, battleaxe or halberd with the orcs would up AC by 1, I guess. Halberd is d10 2h, so I guess that could be it.
#6 Wyvernhand Jul 02, 2009 18:25:29	Specially cross-bred (in-bred?) orcs known for their shear size and brute strenght. Give them Powerful Build, maybe as a feat or something (similar to Jotunbrud, but for orcs). Then give them the typical Power Attack, Imp Bullrush, Knockback combo. Maybe Shocktrooper if you are going for distance. Dungeoncrasher for the lulz. Back em up with a Bard or Battlehowler (as mentioned above) with a wand or staff of Wall of Fire that his mooks can knock people though. I'm glad I'm not one of your PCs...
#7 emy Jul 02, 2009 20:23:07	Do you have Dungeonscape? Because a Factotum/Warblade could totally be a duelist.
#8 Senevri Jul 03, 2009 3:12:39	Factotum is available, yes. Huh. Didn't even consider that. I'm a bit worried about too much complexity. A Factotum 8/Warblade 4 would only have 5 inspiration points, though. Want nasty, though? Orc Crusader, CR 1 a total of 6 HP... But, with 5 points in delayed damage pool, Stone Bones, Crusader's strike, Martial Spirit. If you don't deal 11 points of damage in single hit, they very well may cure themselves back to full health on their turn. Fun, for CR1.
#9 Senevri Jul 03, 2009 17:40:42	I am... a bit underwhelmed; This is what the numbers crunched to: Swashbuckling Highwayman CR 13: Elite array Human Factotum 8/Warblade 4 Init +7 (nerveskitter) Senses perception +14 AC 22 = 10+6 armor + 4 dex + 1 amulet +1 ring (+3 defensive) HP 78 (12 HD) Saves fort 7, ref 16, will 2 Speed 30ft Melee +15/+10 rapier 1d6+1/18-20/x2(Supernal Clarity) and 1d6 cold, fighting defensively +11/+6, 1d6+1/18-20/x2 and 1d6 cold and 1d6 untyped. Base Atk +10 CMB +10 Atk Options maneuvers, deadly defense, Factotum Cunning Abilities: str 10 dex 16(modified 18) con 13 int 18(modified 20) wis 8 cha 12 Cunning 5 inspiration points Maneuvers and Stances Known (IL 8th) prepared Blood in the Water, Pearl of Black Doubt Emerald Razor, Insightful Strike, Ruby Nightmare Blade, Disarming Strike, Death From Above* Iron Heart Surge(from vest) Feats: Adaptive Style, Weapon Finesse, Deadly Defense, Two-weapon fighting, Improved Init, Blade Meditation (diamond), Skill Focus(Concentration). Spells: Nerveskitter, Wraithstrike, Dolorous Blow Skills: Concentration +21, Intimidate +16, Jump +20 SQ/SA: Battle Clarity(Reflex), Uncanny Dodge, Battle Ardor(Crit Confirm), Cunning Insight(ex), Brains over Brawn(ex), Cunning Defense(ex), 3/day Opportunistic Piety(ex), Cunning Surge(ex) Possessions: (27K wbl) +1 Elven Chain (6,150gp), M90 Corsair's eyepatch (3000gp), M64 Lesser Crystal of Cold Assault(3000GP), Headband of Intellect +2 (4000gp), Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (2000gp), Ring of Protection +1(2000gp), Ring of Jumping (+5) (2500gp), Gloves of Dex +2(2000gp), novice Iron Heart Vest(3000gp). Clearly, I can't build this correctly. Halp? Looking at it, dropping the finesse angle might help, but it ruins AC, pretty much. Ring of Jumping isn't really needed, either. That being said, if those criticals start rolling and Blood in the Water is running, anything might happen. I'd need one more WB level to access Mongoose line. That would push this to CR 14. Defensive Fighting, while good to keep in mind, isn't really doing all that much here, though. With Einhander or more of a Tiger Claw focus, it might do more good (TC tactical feat has some interesting defensive fighting options.) I felt I was using Vexing Flanker, WR Defense, Clarion Commander combo a bit much earlier, but it may not be that bad here, as hitting looks like to be a bit of an issue. Improved Disarm line and Diamond Mind tactical feat could net up to +8 on disarm check, though. A disarmed opponent could be hit to recover disarming maneuver, too. Ug. So many potential paths.
#10 gorthawar Jul 04, 2009 3:47:36	How do you get to CR13 with a lvl 12 human npc? Is it because of the elite array? They don't increase CR for the npc in the DMG that way. They actually get max hp at first lvl too. And you shouldn't do it according to the SRD either. Monster’s ability scores based on elite array¹ +1 to CR ¹ Do not apply this increase if you advance a monster by class levels. (Monsters advanced by class levels are assumed to use the elite array.) Perhaps I'm wrong but I always thought that all the monsters are based upon the idea that the players work with a 25pt build as well and improved all of my npc accordingly to our 28pt buy. Considering the ~45pt buy you're using I'd give him a lot more points for free.
#11 Senevri Jul 04, 2009 4:35:43	Ah. Well now, that changes things. A bit. So I can get WB 5 and dancing mongoose, which makes a big difference, in that TWFing actually makes some sense. Hm. In fact, it's down-right life-altering, as it requires changing feats and chosen maneuvers around. There's no more time, so I'm using a tweaked version of this now, and see if I can manage a recurring encounter out of this.