Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 kalt Mar 13, 2009 13:10:43	Well my DM requested that I try out a doubly build just to try something different. Problem is I have had zero experience so I could use a little help with feats and what not. We are playing the Second Darkness adventure path and are currently level 9 and it goes to about 18 with plans for the campaign to go to 21. Books allowed are pretty much everything with no flaws and no level adjustments about +2. Right now I have the following build: Bard 5/MB 1/Ur-Priest 2/Divine Oracle 2/Sublime Chord 2/Fochlucan Lyrist 8 Human 1Bard 1 Iron Will, Free 2Bard 2 3Bard 3 Malign Spellfocus 4Bard 4 5Bard 5 6Mindbender 1 - Skill Focus Religion 7Ur-Priest 1 8Ur-Priest 2 9Divine Oracle 1 - Free 10Divine Oracle 2 11Sublime Chord 1 12Sublime Chord 2 - Free 13Fochlucan Lyrist 1 14Fochlucan Lyrist 2 15Fochlucan Lyrist 3 - Free 16Fochlucan Lyrist 4 17Fochlucan Lyrist 5 18Fochlucan Lyrist 6 - Free 19Fochlucan Lyrist 7 20Fochlucan Lyrist 8 The DM did rule that I could use the Divine Oracle ability to qualify and that I could learn Druidic. A second thing I could use is some opinions on the actual playability of a doubly. I mean once you see them at 20th level they look all nice and pretty but I'm a little uncertain from an actual play standpoint. The campaign is pretty difficult and of course there is a lot of SR enemies (Demons and Drow). It was kind of between this and a Killer Gnome build. I'm thinking the killer gnome is probably stronger but if a doubly isn't really gimp id like to give him a shot just to try something different.
#2 phaedrusxy Mar 13, 2009 13:18:37	A killer gnome will certainly be stronger starting at 9th, and they can perform both as a skill character and caster. It is also possible to go into Shadowcraft Mage as a cleric, and be a double caster of sorts without losing any caster levels. Here is a build that you could dump the flaws and Shadowcrafter out of and use. I'd dump Divine Metamagic: Heighten, also... unless you want a DMG thrown at your face. :D So at level 10, it would be something like this: Forest Gnome Cloistered Cleric 7/Shadowcraft Mage 3 (Alignment NG, worships Baravar Cloakshadow, or could worship Cyric if you want to be evil)
#3 kalt Mar 13, 2009 13:36:30	I would tend to agree with that and have a build in the reserve just in case this doesn't come together or isn't up to par or the needs of the party. The problem really lies in the lack of diversity with out party. We have a warlock, a dread necromancer, and then myself. The Dread necro luckily was smart enough to focus solely in his animating/summoning feats so we have a wall of undead meat that seems to replace a BDF fairly well. Thematically I think an Ur-Priest springs to mind and with the build I listed I can't help but think of someone like Socrates or Plato.
#4 phaedrusxy Mar 13, 2009 13:43:53	Well... I am playing an Ur-Priest right now, but I joined the game at level 12, and entered Ur-Priest at 5th and didn't lose any caster levels. So he's actually a bit ahead of a standard character for casting. With your build, at level 9 you'll be behind, and won't catch up for a long, long time. I wouldn't enjoy it, personally. You'll also need the Requiem feat, or your bardic music won't affect the necro's undead, if you care. If you don't care, I'd enter with wizard instead of bard. That feels more like a Socrates or Plato, to me. My build is Sorcerer 1/Binder 1/Anima Mage 3/Ur-Priest 1 starting out, and then finish Anima Mage, but have it progress Ur-Priest instead of Sorcerer. (It's a bit different than that, as I'm using a homebrewed PrC dip). Contemplative is a nice addition for a good domain, and you might consider Magical Trickster for another free metamagic per day. Tenebrous Apostate is another PrC to consider, as it also progresses Binding. I really love the flavor of combining Ur-Priest and Binder/Anima Mage. :D With this build, you get 2nd level sorcerer spells for Wraithstrike and Heroics, full Ur-Priest casting, nearly full Binder progression, and a few free metamagics per day. Featwise, you can afford to fit Persistent Spell in and easily fulfill the role of "tank", or you could take Chain for mass buffing/Dispelling. You have tons of versatility, overall. I went with the Battle Sorcerer variant so I could cast in armor and not have to worry about spending money on mithril twilight crap. The sorcerer casting is a very minor component of the build though, and wizard would probably be better, but would cause a bit more MAD.
#5 kalt Mar 13, 2009 13:50:30	hmm yes I suppose that would be a big problem with the build in general. I am just trying to do something a little different that I typically do which is primarily a battlefield controller. I did think of trying to build a ray specialist but I'm just not sure how to pull that together or possibly a factotum could be a pretty good time. I've just already played the shadowcraft mage and wanted to branch out a bit.
#6 keithio Mar 13, 2009 15:32:18	I like: (Illumian) Wiz3/Spellthief1/Barbarian1/DivineOracle2/Ur-Priest2/Bard1/SublimeChord1/FL8/SC1 A bit more than your build, but I just like Master Spellthief too much these days. The Ur-Priest caster level in this build stinks, but oh well (2UR-P+8others+2illum+4practiced=16). A level of Ur-Priest or Barbarian can be dropped from that build and replaced by mindbender, to given lvl 18 spell stealing. I like rebuke and pounce more though. Replacing Barbarian or UR-P with mindbender also increase SC and UR-P caster level by 1. If you're not using DMM the second level of UR-P should be something arcane.
#7 hogarth Mar 13, 2009 16:35:14	Do you know how much your DM is changing Second Darkness? From what I gather, it only goes up to level 15 or so. As well, I've heard it's not especially difficult, so maybe your DM is changing things around. If I were to play a double-classed character, I'd probably go for something like Wizard 3/Ardent 2/Cerebremancer 4 (with more cerebremancer and some full caster class to finish it off).
#8 kalt Mar 13, 2009 17:09:05	Ohh he has altered the hell out of the thing and optimized pretty much every single NPC/character and encounter out there. ToB enemies are the norm and lets just say incantatrix isn't for PC's only. My last character and the one before that didn't fair so well. The one thing even as written that is kinda more difficult than i would have originally thought is just the sheer amount of people with SR. True sometimes you can bypass it with ease but that one extra dice roll can be frustrating as heck. Okay so I'm thinking of going away from the doubly route and maybe trying out a blaster. I figure this is something I would not normally do and rolling dice is a heck of a good time. Possibly an Evoker/Silver Pyromancer/tempted to say Incantatrix but I have a strong feeling the DM might ban it.
#9 keithio Mar 13, 2009 17:29:34	If Incantatrix is not allowed Wizard4/Beguiler1/UltimateMagus10 is a very nice blaster. Arcane Mastery (Feat from CA) and UM mean you should always beat SR. Actually I continue my master spellthief motif and suggest: Wizard3/Beguiler1/Spellthief1/(Wizard/WizardPRC)1/UM10 I'm surprised I haven't thought of or seen that entry into UM before. Taking Master Spellthief at 6th level makes Ultimate Magus 10/10 wizard advancement, and makes your CL for wizard and beguiler kick ass, and you don't need practiced caster. It's in the UM handbook, guess I should have read it more closely.