Fighter 2 / Warblade 18 (I take the 2 fighter levels so that I can manipulate when I get or trade up for maneuvers, as well as learning new stances)
Feats- (assume flaws are allowed) Weapon Finesse, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (elven thinblade), Two-Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Karmic Strike, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Combat Reflexes, Improved Critical (elven thinblade), Ironheart Aura, Robilar's Gambit, Improved Initiative, Stormguard Warrior, Blind-fight, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Skill Ranks- don't really matter much, except that he'll have max ranks in Concentration and Jump, but dependent on maneuver choices
Maneuvers Known- Punishing Stance, Moment of Perfect Mind, Pearl of Black Doubt, Ironheart Surge, Dancing Blade Form, Dancing Mongoose, Pouncing Charge, Ironheart Endurance, Quicksilver Motion, Swooping Dragon Strike, Diamond Nightmare Blade, Raging Mongoose, Mountain Tombstone Strike, Time Stands Still, Strike of Perfect Clarity
Equipment- similar to a scout's list, he wants cheap, or free move actions, IOT get into melee with his chosen enemy, and make a full attack. He also needs to hit, so maxing his Dex and to hit bonuses is key
Strategy- Turn on Robilar's Gambit and Karmic Strike, then make a full attack on your opponent, using Dancing Mongoose, but use Combat Rhythm from Stormguard Warrior to make them all touch attacks that deal no damage. Enemy's turn, he may very well take advantage of your foolishness and full attack you in return, providing you with X + Y AoO's, where X is the total number of melee swings at you, and Y is the number of hits he lands with those attacks; but you don't take any of those attacks, and instead Channel the Storm with your Stormguard Warrior. Your next turn, assuming you lived through the full attack, Swift Action- Raging Mongoose, Full-round Action- Time Stands Still; Full Attack your enemy and power attack for -20 to hit and +20 to damage. Assuming the enemy made 5 attacks at you and they all hit (10 AoO's) you get +40 to hit and damage from Channel the Storm; and +50 damage from Combat Rhythm (hasted, 10 touch attacks that likely all hit) this turn with all your attacks, all 24 of them... 2 full attack actions against the guy, with Power Attack -20 +20, each hit deals a minimum of 115 damage (counting a +5 weapon), and you have +20 to hit above your normal attack bonuses for all 24 attacks. Net Result- dead bad guy.
Thoughts?
2) You don't need a Dex based build. A Dex of 20 gets you six AoO's per round. How often are you going to get attacked more then six times a round, and does it really matter then?
3) Exotic weapon prof is a waste of a feat. Just use shortswords. the extra +1 dmg is meaningless.
4) Pearl of black doubt generates AC. Thicket of Blades generates attacks.
5) Close quarters Combat generates attacks (feat). Defensive Sweep generates attacks. Stand Still locks an opponent down and doesn't let them attack anyone but you...which generates attacks.
6) Combat rhythm is really only effective if a) you get attacked a LOT; b) you have a lot of attacks to send back and c) you can double up on attacks.
An ideal combat rhythm and counterattack build generates AoO's all the time. But unless you can generate a minimum of four, all you want to do is take the AoO.
Do the math.
An AoO is a full damage attack at max BAB...meaning it's likely 95% chance to hit. If your damage is 30 per hit, that means for four attacks you're giving up a guaranteed 120 damage, POSSIBLY 240 if you've got double slice (attack with both weapons on AoO + better crit chance).
OR, you could do +4/+4 per attack in the following round, assuming yuo get a full attack. Now, you're going to have to generate 15 attacks or so, for your bonus damage to add up to what you gave up by NOT taking those AoO.
More attacks is generally more effective then more damage per attack. A counterattack build relies on generating heaps of attacks and then using them, not on generating extra damage that might or might not apply if you're lucky enough to get a full attack.
The best use of Combat Rhythm is against a foe that is very difficult to hit. You stand there, soak his attacks, and get your +20 to hit and damage, and then ream his disbelieving AC 60 ass or something. But if you can hit him normally, you're better off taking your 5 AoO's and killing him on HIS TURN...which leaves you free to go butcher someone else the next turn.
Just saying.
My Lockdown build is effectively a counterattack build, based around Stand Still and Overwhelming Attack. Basically you lock something in place with stand still, hit it for a double damage full attack, and when it attacks you, you slam it back with double dmg AoO's and you kill it on its turn. If it grapples you, AoO. If it moves, AoO and stand still it for a DC 60 reflex save. If it doesn't move, AoO with Defensive Sweep. If it attacks, attack back. With a Dex of 24, that's 8 AoO's a round, averaging 60 pts a hit, which is 500ish damage to something on IT'S TURN. On my turn, I go find something else to lock down, and repeat the strategy.
==Aelryinth
2) Dex = ac, survivability, you know the thing I need for this build. I asked to help with this build, not tell me to play a completely different one. Plus Dex = to hit, so yah.
3) EWP = +1 avg damage and +1 crit threat range... not a wasted feat.
4) Thicket of Blades requires me to spend 2 feats to get with this build, or didn't you see Warblade 18 up there?
5) IOT to take all those feats, I'd have to completely change the build, it would have to be a 2 handed weapon wielder to do decent damage; but I wanted to dual wield to take advantage of bonus attacks from my boosts.
6) Combat Rhythm only adds bonuses agains the target you attacked with your melee touch attacks. Do you mean Channel the Storm? If so, I do generate a lot of attacks with it, Robilars + Karmic Strike = lots of AoO's against everyone that attacks me. Plus, the way my build is, there really isn't a way of knowing what is about to happen to you until you're dead, with your build, they see plain as a day what happens when they attack you or stand next to you - you hit them... so they will probably try to leave your character for last, meaning you're constantly trying to get into melee with targets, where as my guy gives them incentive to attack them and then on my turn they die.
Double Hit is only good if I do take the attacks, but the build focuses on Stormguard Warrior and surprising the enemy with death on my next turn. It is a great feat, I agree, but not for this build.
This build will get more full attacks on their turn than yours because the enemy doesn't know what is happening to them when they attack me, they just see that hitting me is easier and they can hit me harder. That is why I said his equipment would have a lot of things to do with cheaper, more, or free move actions, so that after I eviscerate one or two guys, I can do it all again next turn.
Both our builds have the same weaknesses - we're melee only guys. But the enemy will focus anti-melee abilities on your build sooner than me, and potentially killing or removing your ability to do what you do.
If I wanted to play a lockdown build, I'd probably be all fighter levels for the feats, but I wanted to use maneuvers with this one, cuz 2 full attack actions every other turn is hilariously lethal when combined with +4 attacks for both full attack actions. Plus, on turns that I recover maneuvers, I can still make a full attack anyways.
The other problem with your build is if you get ganged up on, your trying to use a limited resource on all those threats, whereas I don't use them, so they ALL count. When my full attack comes, and I Time Stands Still for 2 full attacks, I don't have to hit only 1 guy, I can use all those attacks on different targets, so if they swarmed me, well, I get 24 swings to split up, and they ALL have big bonuses to hit and damage, the bonuses may be different for each target, but they are still there.
2) Plenty of ways to get AC other then a Dex based fighter.
3) EWP gets you 1-8 dmg vs 1-6 for a rapier. +1 Dmg. Not worth it. Plus it's a medium weapon and you'll have off hand weapon fighting penalties.
4) Spend the feats. It's worth it. If not, drop one of the fighter levels for a CRusader level around 10th, and get the same benefit, and more manuvers.
5) You get 2hW for the reach, not the damage. The weapon type becomes less and less relevant as you level.
6) Lockdown doesn't give them the choice on who to attack. Your guy they can avoid, because you can't do anything about it. All they have to do is Not Attack You and your combo is basically useless...or get out of your range and limit you to a standard attack.
Anti-Melee gets focused on Anti-Melee. You're also presuming they can't identify a Combat Rhythm, which is a dangerous thing to presume. If someone you were fighting gave up all their attacks to hit you with a bunch of harmless touch attacks, are you going to stand there and take it?
Two full attacks in a round at high level is a wondeful thing, to be sure. The thing is, they are full attacks, and you are dependent upon your enemies to give you the opportunity to take them. They can ignore you, they can avoid you, they can do stuff to you so they don't have to take the full attack by one reason or another. Also be aware that if you're in the middle of a bunch of enemies and they are unleashing full attacks on you, you are likely going to die before your turn...unless you can kill your enemies on their turn!
Pearl of Black Doubt is highly reliant on the enemy missing to be effective. Being reliant on what the enemy does is never the best choice for a stance.
In any campaign with manuvers, the enemy is going to be far more aware of anyone showing any hint of manuvers then with mere feats. If not, your DM is giving you an advantage to exploit that he should not.
I know what you're trying to do, and if you think it'll work with most fights, go ahead and do it. A lot of it depends on your DM and how clever he runs his monsters. I think after the first couple times, he's going to be having his baddies compensate for your tactic just like they would any other fighting pattern, or avoiding the charge of an uber-charger, or whatever.
===Aelryinth
1) It's a sage ruling and accepted on the CHar Ops board. If you want to rule otherwise, go ahead.
The DM's I play with go by RAW and FAQ's as well as Errata, hence why I said that I don't believe you, we don't use sage rulings.
2) Plenty of ways to get AC other then a Dex based fighter.
I agree, but the build I presented is dex based, so I wanted to maximize it.
3) EWP gets you 1-8 dmg vs 1-6 for a rapier. +1 Dmg. Not worth it. Plus it's a medium weapon and you'll have off hand weapon fighting penalties.
I suppose I could take Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting instead of EWP so I could use Rapiers instead, but -2 to hit with all attacks doesn't affect this build much at all when he goes off, so thats why I went with the thinblades.
4) Spend the feats. It's worth it. If not, drop one of the fighter levels for a CRusader level around 10th, and get the same benefit, and more manuvers.
If I drop fighter levels, I lose feats and a bonus to my initiator level. I suppose I could start as a Warblade for like 4 levels, then take 2 levels of Crusader, then continue Warblade, but I give up 2 feats.
5) You get 2hW for the reach, not the damage. The weapon type becomes less and less relevant as you level.
What do you mean by this?
6) Lockdown doesn't give them the choice on who to attack. Your guy they can avoid, because you can't do anything about it. All they have to do is Not Attack You and your combo is basically useless...or get out of your range and limit you to a standard attack.
They can avoid me, yes, they can avoid your lockdown guy as well. But the +8 to hit and +4 damage cuz I'm leaning toward them gives them the incentive to not avoid me. Plus, when they attack me, I don't hit them back, and you do... more incentive to either focus fire and kill you sooner, or avoid you sooner. And if the monsters spend their time not attacking my character, without knowledge of what I can do to them, that's cheating on the DM's part. How the hell would , say, a Black Dragon, know not to attack me in melee when he's never met my character before? There's lots of background "what if's" there, so that point isn't worth arguing for. Too much metagaming and/or DM specifically altering all the monsters so that my character isn't worth playing. Monsters want full attacks, so why would they stay away from me, the guy that lets them hit harder and easier? Just because they die on my next turn? well they can't change their minds about it, they're dead.
Anti-Melee gets focused on Anti-Melee. You're also presuming they can't identify a Combat Rhythm, which is a dangerous thing to presume. If someone you were fighting gave up all their attacks to hit you with a bunch of harmless touch attacks, are you going to stand there and take it?
Got a rank in Martial Lore skill? No? You have no idea what I'm doing then, because I'm using a feat that requires maneuvers, which requires at least a rank in a trained only use skill to identify, or even know about. Hey, that guy just hit me with a bunch of touch attacks that didn't hurt, what a moron!
Two full attacks in a round at high level is a wondeful thing, to be sure. The thing is, they are full attacks, and you are dependent upon your enemies to give you the opportunity to take them. They can ignore you, they can avoid you, they can do stuff to you so they don't have to take the full attack by one reason or another. Also be aware that if you're in the middle of a bunch of enemies and they are unleashing full attacks on you, you are likely going to die before your turn...unless you can kill your enemies on their turn!
Ok, now you see why I wanted help making this build more survivable, because when he goes off, yes, he decimates the enemy, but if he gets into a position where all the monsters surround him, he can't use his trick in fear of getting killed. So, instead of talking to me like I don't know what I'm doing, can you help me like I asked in my original post? BTW monsters want full attacks, because 99.9% of the time they aren't martial adepts who only use a standard action to do something spiffy. If they want full attacks, why would they avoid my guy?
Pearl of Black Doubt is highly reliant on the enemy missing to be effective. Being reliant on what the enemy does is never the best choice for a stance.
Maybe not, but it is another boost to defense every time I get missed, by anyone, so if a horde of guys are attacking me, and on their first attacks lets say they all need 15's to hit me for whatever reasons, if the first guy goes and misses with say 3 attacks, now I have +6 ac against EVERYONE until the end of my next turn, including everyone else that has yet to attack me. The problem is they don't have knowledge of WHY if they don't have a rank in Martial Lore, and even then, they need to roll.
In any campaign with manuvers, the enemy is going to be far more aware of anyone showing any hint of manuvers then with mere feats. If not, your DM is giving you an advantage to exploit that he should not.
Right, I forgot, fighters aren't supposed to get nice things; cuz only Wizards, Psions, Sorcerers, and Clerics should be able to have power that the enemy can't defend against very well or often
I know what you're trying to do, and if you think it'll work with most fights, go ahead and do it. A lot of it depends on your DM and how clever he runs his monsters. I think after the first couple times, he's going to be having his baddies compensate for your tactic just like they would any other fighting pattern, or avoiding the charge of an uber-charger, or whatever.
Depends on the encounters, the enemy, the plot, etc. Yes. However, monsters with no ranks in Martial Lore, no divination magic or psionics, and/or no way to know about my character because he/she/we never left survivors to go tell them about me; suddenly and immediately adapting to my tactic and/or avoiding me upfront is cheating on the DM's part. If the DM is willing to screw over the martial adept in the party, he should be more than willing to screw over the Tier 1's in the party far more often.
2) -2 to hit for +1 damage is not worth the weapon. Just use shortswords.
3) warblade and crusader levels are 1/2 +IL to the other class, just like Fighters. Look at what you give up for what you gain. It costs you a feat, no +IL to Warblade, and you pick up like 4 manuvers and a stance with an automatic refresh. Make them the Diamond Mind save manuvers and you're golden, or maybe a White Raven technique or two.
4) 2HW is not about the weapon's damage. The 1-6 vs 2-12 becomes less and less important as you level. The power of 2HW is Reach and additional Str dmg.
5) No, they can't avoid Lockdown. As soon as he enters his threat range on them, they can't escape him. That's his shtick. they can try to avoid/flee from ever fighting him, sure. But once he's on, they are locked.
Your reasoning with the Black Dragon is muddled. The Black Dragon might not want to attack you in Melee because in the last three hundred years he's fought dozens of guys with the exact same training you have, and he's Not Stupid. It takes a DC 15 Sense Motive check to ascertain your level and BAB and base dmg and class.
---Wait, now you're relying on a campaign that uses To9S to not adjust monster stats so they have no idea what manuvers is? That's kinda like having a campaign based on psionic use have no creatures that know psicraft and can't understand how these humans have been killing them since the dawn of time, or something.
That's a REALLY bad defense.
And please, tell me what the DC to identify a feat is? Pre reqs are meaningless...identifying a feat is AUTOMATIC. There's no check for it. A monster doesn't need ranks in Martial Lore anymore then you or I do to know that "If someone unleashes a tide of touch attacks on you instead of actually attacking you, he's setting you up for something brutally awesome." It's not even metagaming. And if you can presume that he's listened to stories of famous warriors and their techniques at all, he'll immediately identify what you are trying to do.
---Monsters want to kill you. Full attacks that get them killed are not something an intelligent foe is going to want (some bruiser, maybe). You're assuming a monster is stupid, and just because Core monsters don't have Martial Lore, they don't recognize you or what you're doing. Put yourself in a Int 16 monster's shoes...would you be that stupid?
--Pearl of Black Doubt basically ONLY works if there's mooks around to 'power it up'. You want a stance that aids your offense more then your defense. As an option, sure, it's nice. But, you realize that if you're fighting mooks, they are likely going last, and making them miss by more when they miss doesn't help you against the stuff that is reliably hitting you. To be effective, they'd have to go in initiative before the serious stuff. I suppose trying to manuver yourself in the initiative so that they are 'ahead' of the important guys is another kind of tactic. Also like to point out it's very contingent on there being mooks around.
--If you want AC, the ways to get it are pretty well laid out in multiple formats. I doubt there's much that can be added. TWF sacrifices some AC...you can always get a floating shield to make up for what you lose.
Your Closing Paragraph shows major logic problems.
Core monsters don't have Martial Lore because it's not a Core Skill. You're not in a Core campaign.
You're assuming monsters are totally stupid and don't adapt to what's been slaughtering them.
Monsters don't have to know about your character, they have to know about what PC's are capable of. And you are assuming they only know about fighters and you are a warblade, except in any campaign with both, warblades are likely to be far more famous/infamous then fighters, and word of their techniques spread wide and far. Non-olympian fencers and martial artists still hear about famous martial art technqiues even today.
Furthermore, survivors left behind to blab is meaningless. Tales of your prowess and how you fight aren't going to spread? People are going to want to know. They are going to find out who you've sparred with, trained under, observe you fighting...because that's what people do. Word will spread that you know X fantastic technique and Y OMG finishing move, the same way people will hear the mage knows prismatic spray and meteor swarm. You're assuming monsters haven't heard these tales or seen something with these fantastic techniques before...you're the only warblade that is or ever will be in your campaign?
You're talking about 'screwing over', but you're trying to leverage the fact that monsters have core Spellcraft available, and Knowledge Arcane, and don't have Martial Lore. I think that's about the biggest screw over in the campaign, if the DM lets it pass. Monsters get to know all about famous magic, magic-users, spells and magic items, but don't know anything about famous warriors, mighty generals, the power of the 9 Schools and unbelievably powerful combat ability.
that could get REAL nasty when a Core Black Dragon pops out a Combat Rhythm on YOU that he 'can't learn', because no dragons have Martial Lore.
===Aelryinth
Of course you have to adjust monster stats when you incorporate new material, but making sure EVERY monster knows EXACTLY what makes me good and how to avoid me, despite skill ranks, intelligence, or numbers; means just what I said: the DM's just screwing me over.
I have no way of knowing what the enemy is doing to me if I don't have a rank in Spellcraft or Psicraft. So why would every monster know what I'm doing without a rank in Martial Lore, when I don't even know what is going on against me when a martial adept monster busts out a maneuver and I don't have a rank in Martial Lore... I'll tell you why. It's called game balance. Monsters don't know what spells or psionic powers are, they just know that guy hurt me bad with some crazy looking ability. They also don't know what maneuvers are without the requisite skill rank. The build I designed is focused on killiing the enemy because they attacked me. Yes, it doesn't work as good when they don't attack me, but at the same time, running past me could be a bad idea.
So, with my build in mind, do you have any other suggestions than "play a different build" or are you going to continue to claim your build will never have any problems and mine will always be avoided and sucks?
Right. Down to brass tacks.
As I see it, the main issue with the concept is that it relies on getting hit a lot, but not appropriate to what you are facing.
I'd really recommend getting Stone Power, and at least one of the Stone Dragon effects that grant you Damage Reduction. You rely on getting hit a lot, so surviving those hits has to be your main priority. (As opposed to avoiding them, which wouldn't activate some of your bonuses.)
The extra HP from Stone Power should give you a bit of a buffer, and the DR will take the edge off. (Don't worry about using DR. Against appropriate-level encounters its not going to be able to stop all of the damage from attacks, so you'll still accruebonuses from your karmic-type feats.)
You can probably sacrifice at least one of the Mongoose maneuvers to that end: Raging/Dancing Mongoose does not work with Time Stands Still.
Will you have access to Stoneskin from a friendly spellcaster? That would help.
If you're fighting mooks, you'll only generate a couple of AoOs worth of power (remember that Channel the Storm only works agains a single opponent), but likely enough to kill that mook. Combat Rhythm unleashing only works against the opponent you attacked with the touch attacks however, so you'll either have to spread then around, and risk not killing each one, or concentrating them, only kill a couple.
If you're up against a spellcaster nasty, you're in some trouble: you won't generate any AoO bonuses against them and they are more likely to try to break off from you, wasting Channel the Storm. Your best bet might just be to use the big hitters on them and ignore the "building up" concept.
A melee nasty is where you will shine, but these are often big, overconfident types who lead with Power Attacks, and only throttle it down if they start missing. I've no doubt that if you take a full 5-hit attack routine from them that you'll probably kill them next round, but that involves living through the full set of attacks, since if you're dropping your AC low, they'll probably all hit you.
This is why its important to have as much DR as possible: even the bonus 10 hp from Stone power won't help much when each hit you're taking is dealing 20-40 damage.
Its a cool concept, but you might be better off toning it back a bit and focusing less. As it is, its designed to work against only one of the enemy types you'll be facing. You'll probably either overkill them, which indicates unnecessary effort, or die before you actually do anything against them. You'll be a huge drain on party resources with your requirements for Heal spells and Ressurrections, not to mention the level loss involved.
My advice if you're williong to modify the concept a bit would be dropping Karmic strike at least (since that requires you to actually get hit) and work on boosting your AC to the point where those attacks you're taking aren't all hitting you.
I'll work that one in. Why doesn't a boost work with a strike? Swordsages uses boosts and strikes in the same round, why can't a warblade?
Channel the Storm works individually, but not just against one opponent, for instance if mook A attacks and hits me 3 times, I get 6 AoO's against him to give up... and mook B attacks and hits me 4 times, I get 8 AoO against him to give up... so I get +24 vs mook A if I attack him, and +32 against mook B if I attack him. The bonuses are there, I just need enough attacks to take advantage of the bonuses.
Combat Rhythm I would probably only use against BBEG's, and not mooks. It has its uses though.
Spellcasters are always the downfall of melee, but that's why I've got an Incantatrix and a Radiant Servant in my party, they can handle those guys if I can't get to em... and there's no need to try my trick on them as you said, so I'd probably hit em with either Mountain Tombstone or Strike of Perfect Clarity :P
We're playing max HP in our campaign because the DM didn't want to have to roll hitpoints for monsters so he just said everyone and thing gets Max HP per die.
Are there any pre epic magic items that give DR? maybe I could captialize on that avenue.
I'm focused for one reason: the other 2 melee guys in the group are a zerker charger with that weapon enhancment that doubles the damage on the charge, and a soulknife. I was thinking if I could help the soulknife flank, that would be my best placement, cuz the zerker's just gonna charge on in at the biggest meanest targets right away and draw fire.
The reason for both karmic and robilar's is for channel the storm build up, if I drop one, I essentially lose half of my potential bonuses for all my attacks.
But I will definitely fit Stone Power in there, and this is where I'll take ael's advice and drop EWP for it. So, Stone Power instead of EWP.
I'll tinker with taking 2 Crusader levels instead of Fighter levels to work a tiny bit with Stone Power as well, and another +1 bonus for having damage in the pool isn't to bad.
Why doesn't a boost work with a strike? Swordsages uses boosts and strikes in the same round, why can't a warblade?
Warblades can use boosts with strikes just fine in general. Its just the Mongoose boosts that don't work because you cannot benefit from effects that grant you extra attacks when making a strike.
Channel the Storm works individually, but not just against one opponent, for instance if mook A attacks and hits me 3 times, I get 6 AoO's against him to give up... and mook B attacks and hits me 4 times, I get 8 AoO against him to give up... so I get +24 vs mook A if I attack him, and +32 against mook B if I attack him. The bonuses are there, I just need enough attacks to take advantage of the bonuses.
If that is your DM's interpretation, fair enough. Note that the wording of Channel the Storm speaks of a single opponent, as opposed to other effects that simply use an opponent.
We're playing max HP in our campaign because the DM didn't want to have to roll hitpoints for monsters so he just said everyone and thing gets Max HP per die.
He is aware that that will massively increase the power of spellcasters compared to warrior-types? As if they needed any more boosts.
There aren't any pre-epic magic items that grant you DR better than that you'd get from Stoneskin or Stone Dragon maneuvers. 5 points of DR isn't going to make much difference against a level-appropriate melee type.
I'm focused for one reason: the other 2 melee guys in the group are a zerker charger with that weapon enhancment that doubles the damage on the charge, and a soulknife. I was thinking if I could help the soulknife flank, that would be my best placement, cuz the zerker's just gonna charge on in at the biggest meanest targets right away and draw fire.
But your build requires you to get attacked a lot even though you don't have any way to encourage people to attack you rather than your friends.
The reason for both karmic and robilar's is for channel the storm build up, if I drop one, I essentially lose half of my potential bonuses for all my attacks.
I know. But you'll likely not need that extra bonus anyway if things go right, and IIRC, while Robilar's just requires you to be attacked, Karmic actually requires you to get hit. If you dropped Karmic, you could work on boosting your AC to hopefully get hit less.
Are you sure that your concept wouldn't work better with Crusader, as opposed to Warblade for the majority of levels? They have the whole taking damage boosts their attack thing already built in, and offsetting the damage pool makes it easier for your party to keep you alive.
If you want to do a bit of party support, some of the White Raven maneuvers are pretty handy and will make your berserker friend love you forever. Devoted Spirit also has a few abilities to encourage monsters to attack you rather than your friends.
DM's interpretation comes from the 2nd sentence, "...from making against the same opponent", he takes that to mean that everyone that provokes I can use channel on, but the bonuses against them are solely based on the number of AoO I refrain from taking against that opponent.
When a Sorcerer gets 1d4 and a Fighter 1d10, maxing the Hit Dice doesn't seem to me to make spellcasters uber powerful, they already have an awesome chance at rolling good hit points for the sake of their hit die being so small... fighters almost never get full hit points and are hampered by that. It really hurts them more when they roll a 1 on their d10, as opposed to the sorc rolling a 1 because the sorc has get out of sticky situation spells and abilities, fighters have to fight their way out :P
I will get attacked a lot, the zerker goes for the BBEG, the rest of us focus on the small fry and eliminate those quickly, if all goes well, the zerker ends up in a force cage, grease pile, grappled, etc... while the small fry are dead... letting me go get the BBEG's attention. Everything doesn't go as planned, but sometimes it will work out, and that's all I'm striving for... outshining everyone when it matters
Karmic is because the Incantatrix likes to cast maximized mass fireshield on the party, so it hurts them more when they hit me or anyone else. So I figure, since they are gonna take like 20 damage for hitting anyone in the party, I might as well make it easier for them to hit me AND drop them on my turn
I went with Warblade cuz of the Tiger Claw maneuvers, they're just awesome. I don't need to tank, just off tank, the zerker has that role.
I have a completely different build ready incase my guy dies (DM houserule for the campaign is that no resurrections are possible) and it is a Crusader 20 for survivability. He also houseruled Crusader by bumping down the Stances Known so that I learn new stances at the odd levels instead of even ones (which baffles me because a straight, by the book, crusader 20 CAN'T learn the devoted spirit level 8 stance Immortal Fortitude unless he wastes a feat)
That build has Strength, Charisma, Constitution as its best stats, and he uses the Goad feat with a spiked chain.
Time Stands Still is only labeled as a strike... it requires a full round action to activate but you get 2 full attack actions with it. It's more akin to a full round action boost. So, Mongoose bonus attacks work with that one, but they don't help me Strike of Perfect Clarity anyone :P
If your DM has made that a houserule, then fair enough.
If they haven't then Time Stands Still is still listed as a Strike, whether you think it should actually be a Boost or not.
The max HP thing does not make casters more powerful because it gives them more HP. In fact that aspect of it improves the relative power of the warrior-types. (As well as devaluing Con.)
The max HP rules makes the casters more powerful because the monsters' HP pools are also much larger. While the warriors have to hack their way through a much larger number of HP to kill a monster, a caster throwing a "save or nasty stuff" effect uses only the same amount of effort as they would normally.
Karmic is because the Incantatrix likes to cast maximized mass fireshield on the party, so it hurts them more when they hit me or anyone else. So I figure, since they are gonna take like 20 damage for hitting anyone in the party, I might as well make it easier for them to hit me AND drop them on my turn
Depends whether your healer is willing to put up with/keep you alive through the extra damage for the sake of dealing the extra damage.
Kobold has the point on hit points. Fighters do direct damage. Competent casters do not. Max hit points is basically +8 Con to all monsters. The DM should reciprocate with +4 to all saving throws for monsters, too!
Also like to point out that casters become very hard to kill at later levels due to miss chances and high AC. If you give them a free 1.5 hit points/HD, they just become that much harder to beat down when something finally reaches them.
==Aelryinth
we have never had a problem winning fights via damage before, even with the max hp thing. the only trouble we get in melee are the guys that are immune to con damage (all the melee have wounding and/or greater wounding weapons) and those mobs are handled easily by our casters. Since the DM ruled out 1/day custom items, there are very few humanoid enemies we face that are immune to con damage.. and none of us are, but our radiant servant can heal ability damage pretty darn fast so no biggy.
our healer is more than happy to heal us, he's got touch of healing reserve feat so he can freely heal all of us up to half for free without resource expenditure, then add in complete champion spontaneous domain access and all his cures are empowered and maximized; plus all day long vigorous circle on everyone (fast healing 3) and we're fine.
edit: @crimson, yah I know, I reread the boosts and basically palm-faced myself. any suggestions on what I could use in place of dancing mongoose?
edit2: another thing, our incantatrix likes to open up fights against big enemy spell casters with Reaving Dispel to try to steal already in place buffs, followed up by his x/day free metamagic effect on a spell he casts quickened MDJ centered on all the enemy. We sometimes end up with less loot, but we don't mind, there's always another bad guy in the way.
I'd say keep it! It's usable on a standard action, so basically it's a Pounce attack without the charge bonus (i.e. full attack action and move, only better). The more you can wound stuff, the better.
==Aelryinth
Erm. You're using Wounding weapons and giving up a buff which generates more attacks/wounds?
I'd say keep it! It's usable on a standard action, so basically it's a Pounce attack without the charge bonus (i.e. full attack action and move, only better). The more you can wound stuff, the better.
==Aelryinth
true... hmm... well yah you're right. thats potentially 4 more con damage I can do (i've got greater wounding on my blades)
Should I use kukri's instead of shortswords for the higher crit? the -1 damage isn't that big a deal considering his gimmick bonuses.
The Mongoose attack feats would add on after the Time Stands Still full attacks go off. I.e. You'd get your full attacks, then you'd get your Mongoose attacks. You would not get your mongoose attacks twice. That's what he means by not stacking.
I'm not saying anything about not stacking.
I'm just pointing out that the rules quite clearly state that you cannot benefit from effects that grant you extra attacks when making a strike.
Doesn't matter whether the extra attacks are from a boost maneuver, a haste spell, or a cleave feat. If you make a maneuver listed as a strike, you don't get them.
I haven't found any maneuvers that state that they are exceptions to this rule or that they don't count.
As with all the rules, if you want to bypass this one, you're going to have to get your DM to houserule it away.
My worry with the healer wasn't so much whether they can patch you up after the fight as whether they could actually stop you from dying during it. If you can happily live through absorbing the entirety of a couple of full attacks from some level appropriate encounter without keeling over, something odd is going on, max HP or not.
If you deal additional Con damage on a crit, then kukris do sound useful compared to shortswords. Just bear in mind that you can't use Power Attack with either.
I'm not saying anything about not stacking.
I'm just pointing out that the rules quite clearly state that you cannot benefit from effects that grant you extra attacks when making a strike.
Doesn't matter whether the extra attacks are from a boost maneuver, a haste spell, or a cleave feat. If you make a maneuver listed as a strike, you don't get them.
I haven't found any maneuvers that state that they are exceptions to this rule or that they don't count.
Time Stands Still is a maneuver that is an obvious exception to those rules. It specifically says for you to make 2 full attacks, and by the rules, you get all your bonuses as normal for those full attacks. So if you are hasted, you do get your extra attack, in both full attack actions. But for Strike of Perfect Clarity, all I would get from haste is a +1 TH.
As with all the rules, if you want to bypass this one, you're going to have to get your DM to houserule it away.
No need to houserule something written clear as day to me and him.
My worry with the healer wasn't so much whether they can patch you up after the fight as whether they could actually stop you from dying during it. If you can happily live through absorbing the entirety of a couple of full attacks from some level appropriate encounter without keeling over, something odd is going on, max HP or not.
He's a persistabuffing radiant servant, and he usually spends a few persistent buffs on the whole party, like vigorous circle. He usually ends up readying an action to cast heal on someone through his greater status effect instead of taking a turn.
If you deal additional Con damage on a crit, then kukris do sound useful compared to shortswords. Just bear in mind that you can't use Power Attack with either.
We're not sure if the 1 con damage from Wounding, or 2 con damage from Greater Wounding would get multiplied by a critical hit, for now the DM ruled no and we are fine with it. What feat should I take in place of Power Attack?
Time Stands Still is a maneuver that is an obvious exception to those rules. It specifically says for you to make 2 full attacks, and by the rules, you get all your bonuses as normal for those full attacks. So if you are hasted, you do get your extra attack, in both full attack actions. But for Strike of Perfect Clarity, all I would get from haste is a +1 TH.
I looked. There is nothing to state that it is an exception, obvious or otherwise.
Generally, you do indeed benefit from extra attacks when you take a full-attack action. In this specific case, by the rules, the full-attack actions are part of a strike maneuver and "you cannot benefit from spells or effects that grant you extra attacks when making a strike".
However this seems to be a moot point. If your DM believes that you should get the benefit of the mongoose boosts while using strike of perfect clarity then you do, although we do disagree as to whether this is an actual houserule or just an interpretation of the current rules. Since that discussion isn't going to help with the subject of the thread however, I'd suggest that we simply agree to disagree on the subject.
We're not sure if the 1 con damage from Wounding, or 2 con damage from Greater Wounding would get multiplied by a critical hit, for now the DM ruled no and we are fine with it. What feat should I take in place of Power Attack?
Good point. Wounding doesn't do additional Con damage on a crit.
If you can scrape up a feat from somewhere else, you could pick up Oversized Two Weapon Fighting. That would allow you to dual-wield rapiers, which you can use Power Attack with.
Isn't there a feat that allows a two-weapon fighter to make Attacks of Opportunity with their off-hand in addition to their main hand? From one of the later books I think. That sounds like something that would help the build.
Someone help me out here: am I imagining it or is there one, and what is it called?
Wielding twin rapiers or scimitars with Oversize TWF would be effectively the same as using Kukri's, you don't spend the feat on EWP, and you net +1 dmg.
Using shortswords saves you a feat. The difference will be what you do with the feat you save.
Not sure if blade meditation would kick in, however, as scims aren't a Tiger weapon.
==Aelryinth
Slightly different prerequisites and wording, but seems to effectively do the same thing.
The reason that I'm mentioning the rapiers is that you can power attack with them. You can't do that with shortswords or kukris. Scimitars couldn't be used with Weapon Finesse.
I don't think that Nezkrul was intending to take Blade Meditation, so that shouldn't be an issue.
I think I can use Raging Mongoose in a turn that I use Strike of Perfect Clarity... the extra attacks are just made after the maneuver, and they are just normal attacks, they don't get +100 damage... so I don't see why that would seem broken to you. I'm not getting extra "strikes of perfect clarity"...
The attack rules are there so these strikes stand on their own. They don't need to be enhanced with more attacks, boosted or otherwise. Mongoose is plainly intended to accentuate a normal standard action or a normal full attack...the Mongoose line is basically equivalent to Time Stands Still, in its own way.
Have to side with the dissenting party. But if your DM lets it pass, he lets it pass. Abuse it to heart's content. I personally think the Raging Mongoose is a Strike under another name, but there you have it.
==Aelryinth