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Crafting vs. Falling

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
xeno121
Oct 28, 2008 2:18:32 Quick quesiton, which is more optimal, crafting an item and taking the XP hit, or buying it from a store?
#2
muertog
Oct 28, 2008 2:28:43 Depends. Cheap items, small amounts, the XP hit can be negligable. If the party uses you as their personal "go into the kitchen and make me a sammich" wench, then I would say make them pay full price. ^_^
#3
acereraklives
Oct 28, 2008 4:36:31 Crafting often requires otherwise pointless feats and skills as well. If you get them for free (Scribe Scroll, artificer), then it's better - if not, then buying is usually best.

Of course, in a low-money game, crafting has more value than normal, while in a game with absolutely no downtime between adventures, crafting has even less than usual.
#4
hogarth
Oct 28, 2008 8:16:42 Crafting. Doubling your equipment is worth being a level behind part of the time (at worst).
#5
pithica
Oct 28, 2008 8:35:42 In my groups, downtime is haphazard, at best, and it's rare for a DM to say you can't find a 'standard' item. Even for custom items, we usually can find them in major cities (well someone to make them anyway) with a Gather Information check or a little RP, at worst.

If your group is like mine, I would say that they aren't worth it, unless you get them for free.

Doubling your equipment is worth being a level behind part of the time (at worst).

If you're in Faerun, and can afford the feat (I'd make room, personally), Mercantile Background get's you (potentially) better than double your equipment, and it's one feat. To do the same with crafting requires two or three feats (depending on what equipment you wear), and is limited to the spells/skills you actually possess as to what you can make (unless you're an artificer).

Just something to think about.
#6
eldariel
Oct 28, 2008 9:32:37 Mercantile Background combined with an Artificer makes it more-than-worth-it. Dedicated Wrights also make it worth it as they remove the "downtime" requirement - your Homunculus makes your items as you adventure. Really, I find every party should have at least one crafter (preferably with a Dedicated Wright - and an Archivist, a Wizard or such if Artificers aren't available) with Exceptional Artisan and Legendary Artisan, and one guy with Mercantile Background if at all possible (plus the skills to haggle). This easily multiplies your WPL. Heck, you can easily make money by selling your 37.5%-costing crafts (Exceptional Artisan crafting) for 75% price (Mercantile Background).
#7
pithica
Oct 28, 2008 10:03:05 With *just* mercantile background and a craft skill, you can have a higher profit margin on non-magical crafted goods without all the extra feats or xp costs. Normal craft goods start out with base costs of 1/3 (33.3%) market price and with Mercantile Background sell for 75% (more than double your money). The unseen crafter spell from races of eberron means you can do it without actually doing it yourself, if you like. Pick a skill like 'Bowyering' that's quiet and can be done 'on the road' and just have your crafter work on bows all night while the party sleeps. Pick a skill like 'Jewlery-crafting' and you triple your money (jewelry is a 'trade good' and sells at full price) even without Mercantile Background. Later, when Fabricate becomes available, you can blow that every day during downtime on truly exquisite pieces that would take months to make otherwise. (Metalworking is one of the more profitable skills for that, other than Jewelry-crafting)

If someone in your party wants to play an Artificer, the class is definitely worth it. But you don't need one in your party to make items. One caster with Mercantile Background and a Craft skill is more than enough to double or triple your parties wealth per level. Heck, you could even divide it up and have the crafter/caster and the merchant be two separate characters.
#8
hogarth
Oct 28, 2008 10:34:27
If you're in Faerun, and can afford the feat (I'd make room, personally), Mercantile Background get's you (potentially) better than double your equipment, and it's one feat.

Well, that's if you have a lot of downtime (which, as you said, is a crapshoot). Or maybe I'm misremembering -- I thought Mercantile Background was useful only once a month.

I was exaggerating when I said "double your equipment", but Craft Wondrous Item goes a long way for a wizard (and to a certain extent for a cleric).
#9
pithica
Oct 28, 2008 11:21:50 Mercantile Background lets you sell all non-trade goods (the ones that normally sell for 50% market) for 75% of market instead. Since, on average, a typical character should get about half their wealth from 'gear sold', that means that you're getting roughly 25% more gold on average of the wealth per level chart (to start).

Mercantile Background also gives you an extra 300gp at start (not a lot of money in and of itself, but it makes it worth the feat at 1st).

Mercantile Background also lets you make a single purchase 1/mo at 75% of market price instead of full price.

A caster with Craft Wondrous Item (and no other feats) can get a single wondrous item worth 30,000gp 1/month at half price. They cannot adventure while doing this without another feat, and it costs them XP. They also cannot (normally) craft or do any other 'strenuous' activity during this time (without another feat/item).

A caster with Mercantile Background (and no other feats) can get a single item of any type and any price 1/month at 75% of market. They can adventure for the entire time they wait for it to refresh, selling any gear got on the adventures at a 50% higher margin than normal. Or, conversely, they can craft the entire time (as downtime), making profit on top of profit, doubling or even tripling their money while they wait for it to refresh.

I'm not saying crafting can't work out. I LOVE playing crafters, and I recommend it to anyone that enjoys that kind of thing. I just think if you can get Mercantile Background, anything else is gravy. Yeah, the purchases are limited to 1/month, but I have found that this is usually plenty. In one recent game, a friend playing a crafter decided to make a Ring of Wizardry IV. In the downtime he took to make that one ring (which, was awesome for only 50k), I used mercantile background and a couple of craft skills + spells to buy 3 comparable items (80-120k market), all of which cost me less, total, than his one (I only spent 45k of my own money) as they were bought from profits made from crafting/unseen crafter/fabricate during the downtime. Now, if he had had any of the 'X Artisan' feats, and bothered to spend skills on 'mundane' crafts, he probably would have came out on top money wise, but he still spent XP to do it, where I didn't.

EDIT: For the record, the above example is flawed, in that, I built that character to abuse Mercantile Background with mundane crafting + wizard spells, where the other player did not build his character to abuse CWI, so it's quite a bit unfair.
#10
eldariel
Oct 28, 2008 13:57:16 The thing is though, Craft-feats can actually generate a profit radical enough to use in an actual game. That is, you make the money much faster. Craft-skills of course can generate infinite money given enough time (as can Tumble, Perform, etc.), but Magic Items can generate the money stat (in a matter of weeks).
#11
pithica
Oct 28, 2008 14:35:37 With a caster (specifically a Wizard), mundane crafts are actually faster AND more profitible. With Unseen Crafter, I can have as many 'employees' as I have 2nd level slots multiplied by my caster level working simultaneously (with my full craft skill). In addition to that, I can be casting Fabricate to produce really expensive items as many times per DAY as I have 5th level slots.

With the right craft skills, and a caster level as a wizard in the teens, you can make several thousand gold per DAY that way (and that's without cheesing)

Now, admitedly, I can do the same thing (except be able to craft myself or make anything requiring a 2nd or 5th level slot) while working on a Magic Item. But, why spend the XP if you don't have to? Why blow 3 or 4 (or more) feats if you don't have to?

An example is a Spyglass. By RaW, it costs 333g and has a market price of 1k with a craft DC of 20. At level 9, with Mercantile Background, I can make one per day with Fabricate, selling for 750gp.

With any Item Creation feat AND Mercantile background AND X Artisan (whichever one lowers base price), the best I can do is the same selling price (750g) per day (it's 1 day per 1k g, without that other artisan feat) with a cost of 375g per day.

Now, if I go all out, with the XP and Time Artisan feats, and that other one from FR, I can make that latter higher. But I can also increase profits with a different Item from the base craft skills (I picked spyglass cause I'm in a hurry and the math was easy). There are mundane items with Market prices in the 4-7k range that I can easily craft at level 9 in one day with a Fabricate and the right craft skill. That's 3k gross/1666 net profit per day for a 4k item. Heck, if I go with Jewelcraft, I don't even need mercantile background since Jewelry is a tradegood, that'll triple my investment instead of just over doubling it. There's no way CWI or anything else can compete (best they can do is 1000g Gross/500g Net per day, I think, assuming I did the math in my head right, and that's with every X Artisan feat possible).
#12
jaronk
Oct 28, 2008 14:41:17 When talking about magical items, remember that you may not be able to find the item in stores, but you certainly can if you make it yourself. That's incredibly useful.

JaronK

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 xeno121 Oct 28, 2008 2:18:32	Quick quesiton, which is more optimal, crafting an item and taking the XP hit, or buying it from a store?
#2 muertog Oct 28, 2008 2:28:43	Depends. Cheap items, small amounts, the XP hit can be negligable. If the party uses you as their personal "go into the kitchen and make me a sammich" wench, then I would say make them pay full price. ^_^
#3 acereraklives Oct 28, 2008 4:36:31	Crafting often requires otherwise pointless feats and skills as well. If you get them for free (Scribe Scroll, artificer), then it's better - if not, then buying is usually best. Of course, in a low-money game, crafting has more value than normal, while in a game with absolutely no downtime between adventures, crafting has even less than usual.
#4 hogarth Oct 28, 2008 8:16:42	Crafting. Doubling your equipment is worth being a level behind part of the time (at worst).
#5 pithica Oct 28, 2008 8:35:42	In my groups, downtime is haphazard, at best, and it's rare for a DM to say you can't find a 'standard' item. Even for custom items, we usually can find them in major cities (well someone to make them anyway) with a Gather Information check or a little RP, at worst. If your group is like mine, I would say that they aren't worth it, unless you get them for free. Doubling your equipment is worth being a level behind part of the time (at worst). If you're in Faerun, and can afford the feat (I'd make room, personally), Mercantile Background get's you (potentially) better than double your equipment, and it's one feat. To do the same with crafting requires two or three feats (depending on what equipment you wear), and is limited to the spells/skills you actually possess as to what you can make (unless you're an artificer). Just something to think about.
#6 eldariel Oct 28, 2008 9:32:37	Mercantile Background combined with an Artificer makes it more-than-worth-it. Dedicated Wrights also make it worth it as they remove the "downtime" requirement - your Homunculus makes your items as you adventure. Really, I find every party should have at least one crafter (preferably with a Dedicated Wright - and an Archivist, a Wizard or such if Artificers aren't available) with Exceptional Artisan and Legendary Artisan, and one guy with Mercantile Background if at all possible (plus the skills to haggle). This easily multiplies your WPL. Heck, you can easily make money by selling your 37.5%-costing crafts (Exceptional Artisan crafting) for 75% price (Mercantile Background).
#7 pithica Oct 28, 2008 10:03:05	With just mercantile background and a craft skill, you can have a higher profit margin on non-magical crafted goods without all the extra feats or xp costs. Normal craft goods start out with base costs of 1/3 (33.3%) market price and with Mercantile Background sell for 75% (more than double your money). The unseen crafter spell from races of eberron means you can do it without actually doing it yourself, if you like. Pick a skill like 'Bowyering' that's quiet and can be done 'on the road' and just have your crafter work on bows all night while the party sleeps. Pick a skill like 'Jewlery-crafting' and you triple your money (jewelry is a 'trade good' and sells at full price) even without Mercantile Background. Later, when Fabricate becomes available, you can blow that every day during downtime on truly exquisite pieces that would take months to make otherwise. (Metalworking is one of the more profitable skills for that, other than Jewelry-crafting) If someone in your party wants to play an Artificer, the class is definitely worth it. But you don't need one in your party to make items. One caster with Mercantile Background and a Craft skill is more than enough to double or triple your parties wealth per level. Heck, you could even divide it up and have the crafter/caster and the merchant be two separate characters.
#8 hogarth Oct 28, 2008 10:34:27	If you're in Faerun, and can afford the feat (I'd make room, personally), Mercantile Background get's you (potentially) better than double your equipment, and it's one feat. Well, that's if you have a lot of downtime (which, as you said, is a crapshoot). Or maybe I'm misremembering -- I thought Mercantile Background was useful only once a month. I was exaggerating when I said "double your equipment", but Craft Wondrous Item goes a long way for a wizard (and to a certain extent for a cleric).
#9 pithica Oct 28, 2008 11:21:50	Mercantile Background lets you sell all non-trade goods (the ones that normally sell for 50% market) for 75% of market instead. Since, on average, a typical character should get about half their wealth from 'gear sold', that means that you're getting roughly 25% more gold on average of the wealth per level chart (to start). Mercantile Background also gives you an extra 300gp at start (not a lot of money in and of itself, but it makes it worth the feat at 1st). Mercantile Background also lets you make a single purchase 1/mo at 75% of market price instead of full price. A caster with Craft Wondrous Item (and no other feats) can get a single wondrous item worth 30,000gp 1/month at half price. They cannot adventure while doing this without another feat, and it costs them XP. They also cannot (normally) craft or do any other 'strenuous' activity during this time (without another feat/item). A caster with Mercantile Background (and no other feats) can get a single item of any type and any price 1/month at 75% of market. They can adventure for the entire time they wait for it to refresh, selling any gear got on the adventures at a 50% higher margin than normal. Or, conversely, they can craft the entire time (as downtime), making profit on top of profit, doubling or even tripling their money while they wait for it to refresh. I'm not saying crafting can't work out. I LOVE playing crafters, and I recommend it to anyone that enjoys that kind of thing. I just think if you can get Mercantile Background, anything else is gravy. Yeah, the purchases are limited to 1/month, but I have found that this is usually plenty. In one recent game, a friend playing a crafter decided to make a Ring of Wizardry IV. In the downtime he took to make that one ring (which, was awesome for only 50k), I used mercantile background and a couple of craft skills + spells to buy 3 comparable items (80-120k market), all of which cost me less, total, than his one (I only spent 45k of my own money) as they were bought from profits made from crafting/unseen crafter/fabricate during the downtime. Now, if he had had any of the 'X Artisan' feats, and bothered to spend skills on 'mundane' crafts, he probably would have came out on top money wise, but he still spent XP to do it, where I didn't. EDIT: For the record, the above example is flawed, in that, I built that character to abuse Mercantile Background with mundane crafting + wizard spells, where the other player did not build his character to abuse CWI, so it's quite a bit unfair.
#10 eldariel Oct 28, 2008 13:57:16	The thing is though, Craft-feats can actually generate a profit radical enough to use in an actual game. That is, you make the money much faster. Craft-skills of course can generate infinite money given enough time (as can Tumble, Perform, etc.), but Magic Items can generate the money stat (in a matter of weeks).
#11 pithica Oct 28, 2008 14:35:37	With a caster (specifically a Wizard), mundane crafts are actually faster AND more profitible. With Unseen Crafter, I can have as many 'employees' as I have 2nd level slots multiplied by my caster level working simultaneously (with my full craft skill). In addition to that, I can be casting Fabricate to produce really expensive items as many times per DAY as I have 5th level slots. With the right craft skills, and a caster level as a wizard in the teens, you can make several thousand gold per DAY that way (and that's without cheesing) Now, admitedly, I can do the same thing (except be able to craft myself or make anything requiring a 2nd or 5th level slot) while working on a Magic Item. But, why spend the XP if you don't have to? Why blow 3 or 4 (or more) feats if you don't have to? An example is a Spyglass. By RaW, it costs 333g and has a market price of 1k with a craft DC of 20. At level 9, with Mercantile Background, I can make one per day with Fabricate, selling for 750gp. With any Item Creation feat AND Mercantile background AND X Artisan (whichever one lowers base price), the best I can do is the same selling price (750g) per day (it's 1 day per 1k g, without that other artisan feat) with a cost of 375g per day. Now, if I go all out, with the XP and Time Artisan feats, and that other one from FR, I can make that latter higher. But I can also increase profits with a different Item from the base craft skills (I picked spyglass cause I'm in a hurry and the math was easy). There are mundane items with Market prices in the 4-7k range that I can easily craft at level 9 in one day with a Fabricate and the right craft skill. That's 3k gross/1666 net profit per day for a 4k item. Heck, if I go with Jewelcraft, I don't even need mercantile background since Jewelry is a tradegood, that'll triple my investment instead of just over doubling it. There's no way CWI or anything else can compete (best they can do is 1000g Gross/500g Net per day, I think, assuming I did the math in my head right, and that's with every X Artisan feat possible).
#12 jaronk Oct 28, 2008 14:41:17	When talking about magical items, remember that you may not be able to find the item in stores, but you certainly can if you make it yourself. That's incredibly useful. JaronK