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created a new class, need opinion

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
frankinthecity
Apr 17, 2013 19:36:36 hello everyone, i will play my first game in a few weeks and i have to create my character but i cant find my alter ego!! my favorite class would be like the prestige class deepwood sniper, a mix of ranger/rogue/stealthy/nature. i love the ranger, but i dont think i want to bother with spells for my first game and it is not stealthy enough. and the rogue is very stealthy, but more urban hehe

so basically i created a class and would like your feedback to see if it is balance and fair, not overpowered

class skill would be:
balance
climb
craft
hide
jump
knowledge nature
knowledge dungeonering
knowledge geo
listen
move silently
search
spot
survival
swim
use rope

it would level like this
1 sneak attack (d6) (within 30ft) feat
2 evasion
3 sneak attack (2d6)
4 track
5 sneak attack (3d6)
6 trap finding
7 sneak attack (4d6)
8 uncanny dodge
9 sneak attack (5d6)
10 trap sense
11 sneak attack (6d6)
12 camouflage
13 sneak attack (7d6)
14 trap sense +2
15 sneak attack (8d6)
16 hide in plain sight
17 sneak attack (9d6)
18 trap sense +3
19 sneak attack (10d6)
20 fast movement, extra feat

i would still get the feats at level 1, 4, 8, etc

what do you think??

Francois
#2
StevenO
Apr 17, 2013 20:02:17 I'll just start out by saying that asking "to see if it is balance and fair, not overpowered" is a poor place to start. All of those things require some assumptions and if that assumption is that you need to play an optimized wizard or cleric (or the like) then I can safely say HELL NO to those questions. You are also missing a few key pieces when looking at a non-spellcasting class.

What are it's HD, BAB and Save progressions, and how many skill points does it get?

Now all of those concerns aside I would not allow it even without taking a good look at it. Why? Because you're just reinventing the wheel. What your "request" has me thinking of is simply some Rogue/Ranger multiclass character along with a few of the variations that are already out there. I also look at that and think about the Scout.

To summarize:

You do have enough information listed.

Balance, fair, and overpowered are all relative terms

Your class seems like it is just trying to do what can already be done.

#3
frankinthecity
Apr 17, 2013 20:16:51 thank you for taking the time to help me, you are completely right i forgot a few things

for the BAB, and the saving throws, i will use the same progression of the rogue/scout

for the skill point, it will be the same thing, rogue/scout progression

for the rogue, the problem is the class skills, they are too urban and INT oriented skill (bluff, diplomacy, etc)

#4
frankinthecity
Apr 17, 2013 20:37:58 about balance, fair and not overpowered, by that i am just trying to say that i am willing to give up some skills and special ability to go with a character that i will REALLY enjoy playing, since i am not a pro with DnD i was just making sure my character is not too powerfull compared to the other classes yet not too weak also

thanks again

Francois
#5
Tempest_Stormwind
Apr 17, 2013 21:07:23 Please read the following.

On the Philosophy of Class Design - if you read nothing else, please read that.
Unearthed Arcana - Wilderness Rogue - Basically what you're trying to create.

That's all I can say that Steven didn't already cover, really.
#6
StevenO
Apr 17, 2013 22:14:56 If it is "all about the skills" I really have a hard time seeing it. I'm looking at the Rogue skill list which is just "missing" your Knowledge skills and Survival. A level in Ranger easily makes those class skills and unless I'm missing something major those four skills usually see limited use in games. I don't want to look it up but I suspect that every one of those skills can be taken from the Scout class. Just because a Rogue has all of those "urban and CHA oriented skills" (fixed your INT to CHA for the skills you listed) that doesn't mean you need to put ANY ranks into them. That would leave you just as clueless using them as someone who does NOT have them as class skills.

After looking at your skills your "special abilities" look like a cut/paste from Rogue with a few things shuffled around for a couple Ranger abilities. Again it reminds me of what I recall a Scout's list of abilities looking like.

Now with the basic Rogue stats your class can probably work but then it is also so similar to the Rogue that even an more detailed look at your character sheet would make it hard to distiguish that class from a Rogue. You should take a look at those things Tempest linked (I don't have them saved anywhere) and know I'm just trying to inform you.
#7
Slagger_the_Chuul
Apr 18, 2013 2:01:24 I'd say you're looking at it the wrong way by trying to treat it as a new class, Frank. What you are really doing here is creating a wilderness variant for the rogue, in the same sort of way that there are urban variants for the druid and ranger.

There is even an existing Wilderness Rogue variant (from Unearthed Arcana) which does almost exactly what you're attempting. You can read the details of it here.
#8
Seeron
Apr 18, 2013 5:44:03 other points that many people forget. You can take more then one class and you can, in some limits, redefine the fluff of a class. The wilderness rogue was allready named, but you could also go for a rogue/ranger combo. or the classical scout/ranger with the swift hunter feat. ranger are also very goos at stealth, by getting camouflage and hide in plain sight. If you dont want to bother with spells, there is a spell-less ranger variant in Complete Warrior.
#9
Tempest_Stormwind
Apr 18, 2013 11:56:38 Just in case you aren't following the link, because three other people have also mentioned it, here's the Wilderness Rogue.
Rogue Variant: Wilderness Rogue

The wilderness rogue prefers to put her skills to use in the great outdoors, rather than in cramped alleys and dungeon corridors. In many ways, she is similar to the traditional ranger, though with less combat savvy and with none of the ranger's divine link to the natural world.

Class Skills

Remove the following rogue class skills from the wilderness rogue's class skill list: Appraise, Diplomacy, Decipher Script, Forgery, and Gather Information.

Add the following skills to the wilderness rogue's class skill list: Handle Animal, Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (nature), Ride, and Survival.

Class Features

The wilderness rogue has all the standard rogue class features, except as noted below.

Special Abilities

Add woodland stride (as the 7th-level ranger ability), camouflage (as the 13th-level ranger ability) and hide in plain sight (as the 17th-level ranger ability, requires the rogue to already have the camouflage ability) to the list of special abilities that can be chosen by the wilderness rogue.

For what it's worth, we've made use of a wilderness rogue in our optimization showcase before (Quiet Murder) while other builds can easily be wilderness-friendly (Flip the Bird; just don't use the Cityscape substitutions and it's pure wilderness/rogue themed). That's what's already possible with the existing rules, and those rules are what anything you create will be compared against.

Basically, if you're looking to create a new class, the first thing to do is ask if you need it. For a class to be good, it needs to fill a mechanical/fluff niche no others do (more mechanical than fluff, since fluff is completely what you make of it), and it needs to be mechanically unique. What you're looking for - a rogue with wilderness skills - is neither of those.

Don't take this as a put-down - it isn't. I'm just trying to provide constructive criticism.
#10
Balthanon
Apr 18, 2013 12:38:24 All of that said (and they are good points)-- your class isn't going to be a problem in most typical games if you and your DM want to go with that specifically. There are a few alternate rules that allow you to essentially put together your own class and this isn't far off of that or the actual existing variants.

You would likely end up with a slightly more powerful character using some of the variations mentioned above though, if that is a concern for you.
#11
Lord_of_Dragonborns
Apr 18, 2013 14:05:57 Just a note. You gain feats at every third level (3, 6, 9), not fourth.
#12
frankinthecity
Apr 18, 2013 20:32:53 guys, i just found an AWESOME class! im very surprise no one talked about that class before, the wilderness rogue!! LOL joking i didnt know that class guys! thats awesome thats exactly what i needed!!! all that work for nothing haha

thanks again everyone for all your feedback

quick question, should i pick improved initiative for my first feat or i can go ahead and pick point blank shot?

Francois
#13
frankinthecity
Apr 18, 2013 20:33:49
Just a note. You gain feats at every third level (3, 6, 9), not fourth.

hallelujah!!! thats even better!!
#14
Balthanon
Apr 19, 2013 0:41:25
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />quick question, should i pick improved initiative for my first feat or i can go ahead and pick point blank shot?

Francois

If you're planning on a ranged specialist, I wouldn't bother with Improved Initiative-- ranged combat can be fairly feat intensive. You might want to aim for crossbow sniper incidentally. That will double the distance of your ranged sneak attacks and give you some Dex to damage.
#15
frankinthecity
Apr 21, 2013 12:32:45 perfect thanks again!!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 frankinthecity Apr 17, 2013 19:36:36	hello everyone, i will play my first game in a few weeks and i have to create my character but i cant find my alter ego!! my favorite class would be like the prestige class deepwood sniper, a mix of ranger/rogue/stealthy/nature. i love the ranger, but i dont think i want to bother with spells for my first game and it is not stealthy enough. and the rogue is very stealthy, but more urban hehe so basically i created a class and would like your feedback to see if it is balance and fair, not overpowered class skill would be: balance climb craft hide jump knowledge nature knowledge dungeonering knowledge geo listen move silently search spot survival swim use rope it would level like this 1 sneak attack (d6) (within 30ft) feat 2 evasion 3 sneak attack (2d6) 4 track 5 sneak attack (3d6) 6 trap finding 7 sneak attack (4d6) 8 uncanny dodge 9 sneak attack (5d6) 10 trap sense 11 sneak attack (6d6) 12 camouflage 13 sneak attack (7d6) 14 trap sense +2 15 sneak attack (8d6) 16 hide in plain sight 17 sneak attack (9d6) 18 trap sense +3 19 sneak attack (10d6) 20 fast movement, extra feat i would still get the feats at level 1, 4, 8, etc what do you think?? Francois
#2 StevenO Apr 17, 2013 20:02:17	I'll just start out by saying that asking "to see if it is balance and fair, not overpowered" is a poor place to start. All of those things require some assumptions and if that assumption is that you need to play an optimized wizard or cleric (or the like) then I can safely say HELL NO to those questions. You are also missing a few key pieces when looking at a non-spellcasting class. What are it's HD, BAB and Save progressions, and how many skill points does it get? Now all of those concerns aside I would not allow it even without taking a good look at it. Why? Because you're just reinventing the wheel. What your "request" has me thinking of is simply some Rogue/Ranger multiclass character along with a few of the variations that are already out there. I also look at that and think about the Scout. To summarize: You do have enough information listed. Balance, fair, and overpowered are all relative terms Your class seems like it is just trying to do what can already be done.
#3 frankinthecity Apr 17, 2013 20:16:51	thank you for taking the time to help me, you are completely right i forgot a few things for the BAB, and the saving throws, i will use the same progression of the rogue/scout for the skill point, it will be the same thing, rogue/scout progression for the rogue, the problem is the class skills, they are too urban and INT oriented skill (bluff, diplomacy, etc)
#4 frankinthecity Apr 17, 2013 20:37:58	about balance, fair and not overpowered, by that i am just trying to say that i am willing to give up some skills and special ability to go with a character that i will REALLY enjoy playing, since i am not a pro with DnD i was just making sure my character is not too powerfull compared to the other classes yet not too weak also thanks again Francois
#5 Tempest_Stormwind Apr 17, 2013 21:07:23	Please read the following. On the Philosophy of Class Design - if you read nothing else, please read that. Unearthed Arcana - Wilderness Rogue - Basically what you're trying to create. That's all I can say that Steven didn't already cover, really.
#6 StevenO Apr 17, 2013 22:14:56	If it is "all about the skills" I really have a hard time seeing it. I'm looking at the Rogue skill list which is just "missing" your Knowledge skills and Survival. A level in Ranger easily makes those class skills and unless I'm missing something major those four skills usually see limited use in games. I don't want to look it up but I suspect that every one of those skills can be taken from the Scout class. Just because a Rogue has all of those "urban and CHA oriented skills" (fixed your INT to CHA for the skills you listed) that doesn't mean you need to put ANY ranks into them. That would leave you just as clueless using them as someone who does NOT have them as class skills. After looking at your skills your "special abilities" look like a cut/paste from Rogue with a few things shuffled around for a couple Ranger abilities. Again it reminds me of what I recall a Scout's list of abilities looking like. Now with the basic Rogue stats your class can probably work but then it is also so similar to the Rogue that even an more detailed look at your character sheet would make it hard to distiguish that class from a Rogue. You should take a look at those things Tempest linked (I don't have them saved anywhere) and know I'm just trying to inform you.
#7 Slagger_the_Chuul Apr 18, 2013 2:01:24	I'd say you're looking at it the wrong way by trying to treat it as a new class, Frank. What you are really doing here is creating a wilderness variant for the rogue, in the same sort of way that there are urban variants for the druid and ranger. There is even an existing Wilderness Rogue variant (from Unearthed Arcana) which does almost exactly what you're attempting. You can read the details of it here.
#8 Seeron Apr 18, 2013 5:44:03	other points that many people forget. You can take more then one class and you can, in some limits, redefine the fluff of a class. The wilderness rogue was allready named, but you could also go for a rogue/ranger combo. or the classical scout/ranger with the swift hunter feat. ranger are also very goos at stealth, by getting camouflage and hide in plain sight. If you dont want to bother with spells, there is a spell-less ranger variant in Complete Warrior.
#9 Tempest_Stormwind Apr 18, 2013 11:56:38	Just in case you aren't following the link, because three other people have also mentioned it, here's the Wilderness Rogue. Rogue Variant: Wilderness Rogue The wilderness rogue prefers to put her skills to use in the great outdoors, rather than in cramped alleys and dungeon corridors. In many ways, she is similar to the traditional ranger, though with less combat savvy and with none of the ranger's divine link to the natural world. Class Skills Remove the following rogue class skills from the wilderness rogue's class skill list: Appraise, Diplomacy, Decipher Script, Forgery, and Gather Information. Add the following skills to the wilderness rogue's class skill list: Handle Animal, Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (nature), Ride, and Survival. Class Features The wilderness rogue has all the standard rogue class features, except as noted below. Special Abilities Add woodland stride (as the 7th-level ranger ability), camouflage (as the 13th-level ranger ability) and hide in plain sight (as the 17th-level ranger ability, requires the rogue to already have the camouflage ability) to the list of special abilities that can be chosen by the wilderness rogue. For what it's worth, we've made use of a wilderness rogue in our optimization showcase before (Quiet Murder) while other builds can easily be wilderness-friendly (Flip the Bird; just don't use the Cityscape substitutions and it's pure wilderness/rogue themed). That's what's already possible with the existing rules, and those rules are what anything you create will be compared against. Basically, if you're looking to create a new class, the first thing to do is ask if you need it. For a class to be good, it needs to fill a mechanical/fluff niche no others do (more mechanical than fluff, since fluff is completely what you make of it), and it needs to be mechanically unique. What you're looking for - a rogue with wilderness skills - is neither of those. Don't take this as a put-down - it isn't. I'm just trying to provide constructive criticism.
#10 Balthanon Apr 18, 2013 12:38:24	All of that said (and they are good points)-- your class isn't going to be a problem in most typical games if you and your DM want to go with that specifically. There are a few alternate rules that allow you to essentially put together your own class and this isn't far off of that or the actual existing variants. You would likely end up with a slightly more powerful character using some of the variations mentioned above though, if that is a concern for you.
#11 Lord_of_Dragonborns Apr 18, 2013 14:05:57	Just a note. You gain feats at every third level (3, 6, 9), not fourth.
#12 frankinthecity Apr 18, 2013 20:32:53	guys, i just found an AWESOME class! im very surprise no one talked about that class before, the wilderness rogue!! LOL joking i didnt know that class guys! thats awesome thats exactly what i needed!!! all that work for nothing haha thanks again everyone for all your feedback quick question, should i pick improved initiative for my first feat or i can go ahead and pick point blank shot? Francois
#13 frankinthecity Apr 18, 2013 20:33:49	Just a note. You gain feats at every third level (3, 6, 9), not fourth. hallelujah!!! thats even better!!
#14 Balthanon Apr 19, 2013 0:41:25	..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />quick question, should i pick improved initiative for my first feat or i can go ahead and pick point blank shot? Francois If you're planning on a ranged specialist, I wouldn't bother with Improved Initiative-- ranged combat can be fairly feat intensive. You might want to aim for crossbow sniper incidentally. That will double the distance of your ranged sneak attacks and give you some Dex to damage.
#15 frankinthecity Apr 21, 2013 12:32:45	perfect thanks again!!