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| #1neoxJun 30, 2008 15:49:56 | Hello all, me and my friends are about to start a campaign and I'm in need of help for making a character, I was wondering if you could help me. - The game is a high point buy system, over 32 point buy as far as I know. - Character wealth is by level, we start at level 5 - Our DM is very antimagic characters, he won't allow us to play characters that can gain more than 4th level spells like ranger or paladins. Wizards, clerics, druids and all the like are non-playable, as are Ur-priest and Sublime cord becuase they grant up to 9th level spells. - All books are available, but I have to cover it with the DM first, so cheese is unacceptable. I would like to make a playable character that's powerful but fun too and won't steal the campaign. - Alignment restricitions and multiclass exp penalties are non-existant, so if a class requires evil or good or lawful or whatever, it's available regardless of alignment and basically all races are treated as having favoured class (all). - We are allowed one flaw and a trait. The character concept I'm going for is one that's very ant-imagic user and anti-outsider, as those will likely be our most powerful enemies, and without high level spell casters of our own we don't really have a way of evening the game board. I've already looked at Lockdown 2.0, which is where I get a lot of my ideas from, but I think I would like something more saving throw based who can actually survive in combat against powerful magic users and outsiders. Races I'm looking at: Humans for the extra feat, I see this being a very feat intensive build Assimar for the bonuses, but without level adjustment by taking away the outsider subtype as per the forgetten realms thingy. Classes I'm looking at for this are: Paladin - With the Mystic Fire Knight substitution levels the paladin would make a great 20 level character, capable of dispelling magic and even rendering spell casters incapable of casting their spells for a certain time. I could be a paladin of tyranny or slaughter to lower my enemies saving throws or AC. Lower saving throws would help because then I could enchant or poison my weapons to inflict secondary effects on spell casters with lower fortitudes, and lowering AC by one would give me a better chance of hitting as I don't see this character having high to hit cause everything would be put into charisma. It would be for role playing, but it's really those first few level i'm interested in. Divine Grace for charisma to saving throws would be invaluable against spell casters. Hexblade - A given since it grants charisma again to saving throws against spells, and grants mettle at level 3. The Dark Companion substitution would give him an even better chance of poisoning/status effecting enemies Crusader - This would basically just be a quick dip type character for the Thicket of Blades stance, to attack those pesky mages who want to escape me. More than one level is basically useless because it's second level ability doesn't stack with the paladin's divine grace Prestige classes of interest: Occult Slayer - this speaks for itself, it has that antimagic user ability, though I'm not sure how optimal it is Witch Slayer - gets mettle, but since there's no exp penalties, going 4 levels of hexblade is actually worth it, since the witch slayers abilities won't have any real effect on enemies in the game Knight of the Chalice - Anti-outsider abilites are awesome, though it's basically the paladin with some niffty powers. Divine Oracle - That second level ability to gain evasion even in heavy armor, combined with mettle from another class would make me a monster against spell effects Jordain Viser - This shining south class is full of promise, though the pre-reqs are rather crappy and I'm not sure if the benefits are worth it, I leave that to the wisdom of the CO board members Feats of interest: Mage Slayer -> Pierce magical protection - a powerful combo against any creature that can use spells or spell like abilities, especially mages that buff before hand. Combined with thicket of blades, standstill and a range melee weapon, I would keep enemy spell casters in range and unable to cast spells Standstill - keep spell casters in range cause of their low reflex, problem is I don't think i'll be able to deal much damage Rolibar's Gambit - Against outsiders that can hold their own in melee, the ability to dish damage out not on my turn would be so useful or to punish any mage dumb enough to try to hit me with his enchanted staff... that sounds dirty Defensive sweep - Provoke more AoO? thank you Deft opportunist - since this character seems to focus a lot on AoO, it would help a lot as far as I see. Items of Interest: Vest of Resistance +# Item of Charisma +# -> Belt of Magnificance +# Weapon abilities: Dispelling? Outsider Bane? That's what I've got so far in terms of a build. A paldin of tyranny 3/hexblade 3/curader 1/occult slayer 3/knight of the chalice 8/divine oracle 2 (not necessarily in the order) seems like an optimal build, assuming I can meet the pre-reqs, combined with the above feats. I appreciate all help anyone can offer me, thank you. |
| #2carnivoreJun 30, 2008 16:03:54 | id say try this: Human: Ranger 1/ Marshal 2/ Monk 2/ Jordain Vizer 5/ Witch Slayer 5/ Occult Slayer 5 :D |
| #3neoxJun 30, 2008 16:56:49 | id say try this: That does seem like a very powerful anti-magic character, it seems very MAD though. I'll write down what I think you were tyring to get across. I counted up it's base saving throws at the end to be 14/8/18, which is very respectable IMO. BAB is 16, so I would just get those 4 attacks, but again it seems like it's not much of an attack characters, though it seems to me it's built more for support anyway. I would probably avoid big hitter and go straight for enemy spell casters. I think for the ranger level I would take favoured enemy (arcansits) from complete mage, that would give me a better bonus against them. I've never played a marshall, but skill focus diplomacy would help with the high charisma build, and the minor aura assisting reflex saves would help, and the major aura increasing all saving throws by 1. This would help make me a party face and team player Monk 2 would grab me all the skills for Jordain Vizer I think, as well as evasion. Here's where it gets a little MAD for my tastes, because wisdom to AC wouldn't help much as a lot of my points would be distributed according to this: CHA>STR>CON>DEX>INT>WIS. The Marshall grants heavy armor and shield proficiencies, so I'll deck out with armor, shield, and a trident or some range melee weapon. Then again, I don't think evasion works in armor, does it? Jordain Vizer grants all sorts of cool powers, including: Arcane Spell Resistance - A great power against arcane spell casters, though the divine kind will **** me probably. Arcane Non-Detection - Sure I would have a good chance against divinations, but my DM doesn't use them often, and like above, it's rather useless against non-arcane users Counter spell - it seems a little useless, especially against higher level spell casters Combat Insight +1 or 2 to attack rolls and dodge bonus to AC Grace - it's what i would get with the hexblade anyway, so I'm happy, charisma to saves against spells helps out so much Witch Slayer is a special interest class, sure it's a little campaign specific, but who knows if it's possession orientated powers would be useful one day, plus it's got **** easy requirements: Smite Spirit Sharer - Useless really, we've never had vestiges or possessed creatures, especially when I'm probably facing good aligned creatures a lot of the time to Mettle - So worth it right here, shrug off instant death effects if i pass the save, screwed if I don't anyway Locate Possession - again, pretty useless unless a specific situation occurs Slippery Mind - Not sure how often mind affecting spells will be used, but it'll be damn useful if the situation comes Momentary Disjunction - ... I love you Occult Slayer - More role playing goodness with sweet bonuses to: Magical Defense +# - useful against any and all spells/spell like abilities, the more saving throws the better Weapon bond - an extra d6 damage is always welcome to this probably low damage build Mind over Magic - spell turning is a powerful effect if it's a single target effect on me Viscious Strike - double damage is great, but what keeps them from moving away from me? Non-detection cloak - makes me immune to divination spells equal to my occult slayer level, but at this level enemies will have 9th level spells and those are so hard to resist. A 19th level cleric will find me out regardless, though I guess my DM doesn't use those spells much anyway Blank thoughts - Permanent Mind Blank? yes please and thank you! Besides feat requirments, any other recommendations? Over all I think this guys got great potential, but sadly my enemies will be a mix of arcane, divine and outsiders, not to mention every other type of enemy in the monster manuals. It's got great role-play-ability and is over all amazing against spell casters, especially arcane ones. However, it's simply to weak against other enemies from what I see, though high saves, mettle and evasion do = win. Thanks for the suggestion and I'll definitely consider it if I die at higher levels and get to remake a character, cause it only seems to come into it's own at high levels. |
| #4neoxJun 30, 2008 16:58:52 | Also, how would an assassin-esque character do against magic users? especially with 5 levels of occult slayer for non detection defense at low levels and blank thoughts? |
| #5womblehunterJul 01, 2008 9:34:23 | Paladin 3/Fighter 2/Occult Slayer 5/Hellreaver 10 |
| #6haksuitteJul 01, 2008 15:02:35 | rogue3/ftr2/hexblade3/any... nets: sneak 2d6, evasion, mettle, cha to saves. bab+7, 5d10+3d6 hitpoints, 2 bonus feats. You could fit in occult slayer5 easy, then ftr3&4 for weapon specialization and mastery. and still 5 levels to use. Perhaps assassin 5 for sneak 3d6, imp.uncanny dodge, lv2 spells. including some very nice swift action spells. and a suggestion for an antimagic race: tome of magic pg.85 karsite Altough LA+2 race, nets human bonusfeat, +2 cha&con, spellresistance of 10+character level, damage resistance 5/magic (very useful at lv5 as not all enemies have magic weapons). and then some. But after that you cant cast any spells, ever. So no for an assassin PrC ability points(32): 16,12,12,10,10,16 +2cha&con -> 16,12,14,10,10,18 if no exp. penalties, go straight for hex3 in the start. full bab, cha to saves etc. lv 5 start: bab+3,saves:5,5,7, hits 3d10+con, dmg res5, spell res 13, 3 feats. btw. Im planning myself a character with: rog3/ftr2/hex3/warblade3/1any/Disiple of Dissapater8 race Karsite with LA-buyoff. and going for TWF-crit build. warblade gets me int to crit confirmations and blood in water stance + some more. |
| #7carnivoreJul 01, 2008 15:59:38 | i will explain why it works great early on ... up thru high levels. it is effective vs most Any enemies... Human: Ranger 1/ Marshal 2/ Monk 2(Sleeping Tiger Style)/ Jordain Vizer 5/ Witch Slayer 5/ Occult Slayer 5 Stats(32pt Buy) 10 Str 28 Dex(14+3 lvls+5 Tome+6 item) 18 Con(14+4 Item) 18 Int(14+4 item) 22 Wis(14+4 Tome+4 item) 26 Cha(14+2 lvls +4 Tome +6 Item) Marshal Aura: Monor: Motivate Charisma= 2xCha for Cha checks(+16) Major: Feats: Iron Will(human Bonus) Track(Ranger Bonus) Skill Focus(Diplomacy)(marshal bonus) Weapon Finnesse(monk bonus) Improved initiative(monk bonus) 1st lvl Spell Wise 3rd lvl Exotic Weapon(Spiked Chain) 6th lvl Knowledge Devotion 9th lvl Weapon Focus(Spiked Chain) 12th lvl Combat Reflexes 15th lvl Quick Reconoiter(free Spot and Listen each round, +2 Initiative) or Mageslayer 18th lvl Robilars Gambit you will be very functional due to Equipment... also since this character focuses on Finnesse and Retributive Attacks.... he makes up for low Str but since you are almost guaranteed to go first due to a very high initiative... you can control the situation... talk your way out of a bad place... or strike first, then strike after every oponent attacks you.... with a Dex 28 and BAB +16... you have 4 attacks(5 with haste from Boots of speed) then 9 more attack if something attacks you...... you will have Reach also due to using a Spiked Chain... :D |
| #8neoxJul 02, 2008 3:16:51 | i will explain why it works great early on ... up thru high levels. Woah, woah woah here, 2 times bonus to charisma checks and charisma based skill checks? Does that actually apply to things like Vizor's spell resistance and grace? If so, you have sold me good sir |
| #9phaxiJul 02, 2008 6:54:46 | Woah, woah woah here, 2 times bonus to charisma checks and charisma based skill checks? Does that actually apply to things like Vizor's spell resistance and grace? If so, you have sold me good sir Marshal, "Motivate Charisma: Bonus on Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks." |
| #10carnivoreJul 02, 2008 11:18:52 | Woah, woah woah here, 2 times bonus to charisma checks and charisma based skill checks? Does that actually apply to things like Vizor's spell resistance and grace? If so, you have sold me good sir as Phaxi noted... it only applies to Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks Jordain Vizers Spell Resistance gets a boost from Cha, but it is not a Cha Check... nor is Grace... they benifit from a High Cha , but are not checks. what the build does....: Gain Int x2 for int Checks Gain Wis x2 for Wis Checks Gain Cha x2 for Cha Checks he will have great saves... excellent skills ... great boosts to mental abilities, good combat abilities.... a nice well rounded character who can even function without any items at all :D |
| #11WyvernhandJul 02, 2008 12:13:27 | I'd post you a link to my Dwarven Urgosh Optimization thread, but the search tool seems to be down. Its a Fighter2/Barb1/Ranger2/Deepwarden2/PiousTemplar7/OccultSlayer5/ExoticWeaponsMaster1. This nets you Mettle, strong fort and will saves to back it up, OS goodness, Con synergy, and a handful of paladin spells which are actually decent when you go looking around in Spell Compendium. The trick involves doing a Flurry of Strikes and a Slashing Fury with one end of the Urgosh 2handed for all the juicy 1.5x str and 2:1 PA. Pounce + Leap Attack + Shocktrooper means you can pretty much decimate any foe you please. Granted, you don't get CHA to saves 3 times, but between OS' +3, Dwarf's +2, and strong fort/will saves in many of the classes mentioned, you'll be well off. This build is a lot less MAD then some of the others, only needing really high Str and Con, while dumping dex (10 max), cha(6 max), int(10 max), and to a point wisdom (14 max for spellcasting). This means you can start with as high a Str and Con as you can. Deepwarden prereqs already qualify you for Steadfast Determination, which further boosts your will saves and keeps you from autofailing fort saves on a 1 (the bane of any high level melee that consistantly takes more than 50 points in a single hit). Your reflex save will lag a little, but typically reflex saves only inflict hp damage, which you'll have plenty of due to high Con prioritization. If you are really worried, get Energy Immunity(MIC) on both your armor and animated shield. This'll keep you cool if things get really hot (or vise versa!). For gear, make your Urgosh versitile. I'd either do all Adamantine with one side Wounding (for general fighting) and the other Transmuting (for special DRs) or if you know you'll have lots of evil outsiders of various flavors, get one side Cold Iron and the other Silvered with Sacred (LM, aligns good +2d6 vs evil outsiders/+1d6 vs undead, +1 equiv) on both. Won't help you with good outsiders though. Magebane would also be decent, since most outsiders and powerful undead have spell-like abilities. Weapon Crystals are also fun to tack onto an Urgosh since its worded funny in MIC, you should only need 1 crystal for both ends. Doesn't really matter, since you are only using 1 end at a time, but hey, might matter. Whenever Gleemin gets their act together and fixes the search feature, just search for Urgosh Optimization and you'll find the thread started by me. |
| #12hsienJul 02, 2008 17:24:47 | Couple things to consider, don't have time to do a complete work up 1: Ranger/Scout with Swift Hunter feat (CoScoundrel) Check out the handbook. If you take sufficient levels to get evasion form both, use alt class fetaure to take Spell Reflection. Pair that with miss chance for added benefit. Ring of Entropic Shield + Panther Mask (MIC) = 50% miss chance whenever you move at least 10', which you'd be doing for Skirmish damage. 2: Arcanopath Monk, from Dragon Compendium One of these wiped a whole group (primarily casters) at Gen Con last year. Has a spell reflect/turning ability, don't recall details |
| #13detectivejabscoJul 02, 2008 23:08:07 | Could you play a Factotem? You could bulk up on reserv feats/ |
| #14jaronkJul 03, 2008 1:49:02 | How about Paladin of Tyranny 3/Hexblade 4/Binder 8/Knight of the Sacred Seal 5, binding Foculor all the time and using the Dark Companion substitution so everyone within range of you is at -6 to saves, which you can combine with another vestige (whatever works for you) to rock out? That double charisma to saves bit is handy as well. JaronK |
| #15surrealJul 03, 2008 11:56:08 | Could you play a Factotem? I think this was shot down by the sage or custserv. |
| #16neoxJul 04, 2008 0:51:56 | I'm now looking into the Athar Defiant as a possibility. It's pre-reqs are a bit of a problem, I think I can convince my DM to let me play a planar paladin, so that would net me the knowledge the planes, but I'll have to take Jack of all trades or Able Learner to get the other pre-reqs, but I think it will work. I know it might not seem feasable, but as long as i come up with a story I should be able to come up with a story to make it happen. Human, worship an Arch Devil Ranger 1 - fav enemy arcanists, able learner, 2 more feats Hexblade 1 hexblade 2 Paladin 1 - feat Paladin 2 Athar Defiant 1 Athar Defiant 2 Athat Defiant 3 Witch Slayer 1-5 occult Slayer 1-5 Knight of the Chailice 1-2 I've come to terms that my character just won't have a good reflex save, so I'll just find away around evasion, like a ring of energy resistence or something. This build would net me mettle, immunity to divine damage (useful against divine spell casters), charisma to saves, 2x charisma to saves against spells, 3x charisma against divine spells, non-detection, mind blank, immunity to fear, etc, etc. Thanks everyone for the great ideas, I'm tyring to incorporate a bit of everything, you've all given me great ideas. |