Creating a monk doppleganger. - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Creating a monk doppleganger.

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
hodgie25
Apr 22, 2011 23:16:57 Probably an overused build. ECL 9 game, only allowed 1 class level. Doppleganger makes me 8th ECL(+4 LA, 4 from hit die) Monk goes off wisdom, dopplegangers strongest increase. And I qualify for warshaper eventually, which is awesome. Thinking of also going fist of the forest.

I have 7 feats, 2 from doppleganger, 4 from being ECL 9, 1 from first level in monk. I know there are some awesome ones I should take, I just don't know the names of them.

I can increase my ability scores twice, from being ECL 9. Most likely wisdom, it is my most important stat after all.

What I really need are the 7 feats, items (36,000) starting gold. Probably gonna pick up a necklace of natural attacks and enchant my fists with awesome.
#2
Particle_Man
Apr 22, 2011 23:28:13 Swordsage might also be an option. What books are allowed?

But anyhow, a few feats: Improved Natural Attack (MM), Superior Unarmed Strike (Bo9S), maybe Able Learner if you like cross-class skills (Races of Destiny).

I don't think you get 7 feats, though. Feats come from real HD levels, not ECL, so you don't count the +4 LA when calculating feats (or the increase to ability scores, or skill points). Sorry.

So you the feats, etc. of a 5th level character (4 levels of montrous humanoid HD and 1 level of monk). But for getting xp after killing things and taking their stuff you count as a 9th level character. Not sure about whether you count as 9th or 5th for treasure, but I think 9th.
#3
hodgie25
Apr 22, 2011 23:39:15 Just about any book is avaliable. Only book I know of that isn't is the poisoncraft handbook. I see, the HD don't add in for character level, just LA. So yes, this would be a 5th level equivalent character. Oh well, thats still like what, 4 feats? Less, but I can deal. Also, for the improved natural attack, do fists count as natural attacks? I think they should, but that would give all characters natural attacks because they have fists. And aren't there some prestige classes you can only take if you have a natural attack? That kind of breaks those. What book is superior unarmed strike from? I don't know what Bo9S is.
#4
hodgie25
Apr 23, 2011 2:46:11 Also I do have 7 feats cause I'm taking 2 flaws, murky eyed and shaky. Cause when will I use ranged attacks ever when I can just go oh, sorry is that my fist down your throat?
#5
Captain_Kobold
Apr 23, 2011 4:54:55
I see, the HD don't add in for character level, just LA. So yes, this would be a 5th level equivalent character. Oh well, thats still like what, 4 feats? Less, but I can deal.

No. Its just the HD, including dice from character level.
So you have 2 feats: 1 from starting HD, 1 from 3 HD. (Plus any you get from flaws.)

Also, for the improved natural attack, do fists count as natural attacks? I think they should, but that would give all characters natural attacks because they have fists. And aren't there some prestige classes you can only take if you have a natural attack? That kind of breaks those. What book is superior unarmed strike from? I don't know what Bo9S is.

Monks have a special rule that their fists do count as Natural attacks or manufactured weapons for the purposes of effects that improve them, so Improved Natural Attack is fine. You will have to wait until you gain a level to pick that one up though. (The feat you get at 6HD (ECL 10) will be the first one where you count as a Monk.)

Superior Unarmed Strike is from the Tome of Battle (ToB) also known as the Book of Nine Swords (Bo9S).

#6
hodgie25
Apr 23, 2011 9:06:47 I get 7 feats, 2 from 5 hit die (4 from doppleganger, 1 from monk), 2 from monstorous levels, 1 from being monk level 1, and 2 from flaws. Oh, and my monk bonus feat.
#7
Particle_Man
Apr 23, 2011 9:47:24 Sorry but the feats you get from 4 HD doppleganger are, in fact, the feats you get from 4 montrous humanoid levels. So you get 6 feats (2 from 5 HD, 2 from flaws, 2 from monk (one of which is Improved Unarmed Strike)). Since your racial HD come "first", that means you get Improved Unarmed Strike and your other monk bonus feat most recently, so you can't use the other 4 feats to take anything for which Improved Unarmed Strike is a prerequisite (so you have to wait for Superior Unarmed Strike, alas). Similarly, since your non-monk feats come when you have BAB +1 or BAB +3, you cannot yet take Improved Natural Attack.
#8
hodgie25
Apr 23, 2011 10:07:49 Okay, I get you now. That pretty much sucks. So these 4 feats will be dump feats until I can retrain them? Or something else.
#9
Captain_Kobold
Apr 23, 2011 12:26:19 They are feats. Why would they be regarded as "dump" feats?
Remember that you have to obey the prerequisites for the point at which you obtained the feat, even if you retrain it.

What sort of thing do you want to do?
If there are feats with no prerequisites that are required for prestige classes that you are after, you could pick those up.

Its probably worth pointing out that you also only have one ability point increase. They follow the same system as feats do.
#10
hodgie25
Apr 23, 2011 14:15:27 Yeah. But I haven't really found any feats that work until I get the 2nd level of monk and the bonus feat that goes with it. Then I get the feat, retrain another into something I can't get until that 2nd level where I actually count as a monk.
#11
Captain_Kobold
Apr 23, 2011 18:24:51 You can't retrain to get a feat that you couldn't have taken when you first got the feat slot.
The two feats that you get from HD for example, could not be retrained into feats that require monk levels, because you didn't have Monk levels when you get those slots. Likewise the feats you get from flaws, since I think you get those at 1st HD.

Basically, the only feat slots that you will be able to use to get feats requiring 2nd level of Monk will be the ones that you get after you hit that 2nd level of Monk.

I think that the only exceptions are feats requiring other feats as prerequisites.
#12
hodgie25
Apr 23, 2011 18:41:29 Oh, that sucks. I understand the rule tho. So which feats should I take then? I want to dish out as much pain as possible (obvious). And whatever else the monk is good at. I also need items, most likely a necklace of natural attacks.
#13
hodgie25
Apr 28, 2011 8:03:04 So I still don't know what feats would be best, because I can't take any monk feats.
#14
Captain_Kobold
Apr 28, 2011 9:39:16 Are there any feats that are prerequisites for Warshaper and Fist of the Forest?
You could also look at things like Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Combat reflexes, Combat Expertise or Blind Fight. These are basic feats with minimal reqiurements but if you want them in your build, you may as well pick them up now.

As to items, a Monk's Belt is the obvious.
An Amulet of Mighty Fists (3.5 ed version of the Amulet of Natural Attacks) is also good, particularly if you don't have a pocket spellcaster to buff your attacks.
Some effect that allows you more mobility such as Flight can also be handy.
For weaponry, if your DM allows Scorpion Kama variations, that can be good.
Bracers of Armour. Again unless you have the pet spellcaster.

You might want to have a good think about whether you will be attacking unarmed or with weapons. Your unarmed attacks will be lagging behind because of your LA and monstrous humanoid levels. Fortunately your weapon attacks won't be, since you have access to ECL 9 wealth.

What sort of person is this monk character going to be? What do you see them doing? What sort of items will help them do it?
#15
hodgie25
Apr 28, 2011 18:42:07 Fist of the forest needs power attack, Improved unarmed strike, and Power attack. Warshaper just needs 4 BAB, and shapechanging.

I will not be using weapons, I'm gonna use the extra money to buy things I need as opposed to enchanting weapons.

He will be a melee fighter taking on things with fists and elbows flying. Anything that increases his damage output is a good choice.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 hodgie25 Apr 22, 2011 23:16:57	Probably an overused build. ECL 9 game, only allowed 1 class level. Doppleganger makes me 8th ECL(+4 LA, 4 from hit die) Monk goes off wisdom, dopplegangers strongest increase. And I qualify for warshaper eventually, which is awesome. Thinking of also going fist of the forest. I have 7 feats, 2 from doppleganger, 4 from being ECL 9, 1 from first level in monk. I know there are some awesome ones I should take, I just don't know the names of them. I can increase my ability scores twice, from being ECL 9. Most likely wisdom, it is my most important stat after all. What I really need are the 7 feats, items (36,000) starting gold. Probably gonna pick up a necklace of natural attacks and enchant my fists with awesome.
#2 Particle_Man Apr 22, 2011 23:28:13	Swordsage might also be an option. What books are allowed? But anyhow, a few feats: Improved Natural Attack (MM), Superior Unarmed Strike (Bo9S), maybe Able Learner if you like cross-class skills (Races of Destiny). I don't think you get 7 feats, though. Feats come from real HD levels, not ECL, so you don't count the +4 LA when calculating feats (or the increase to ability scores, or skill points). Sorry. So you the feats, etc. of a 5th level character (4 levels of montrous humanoid HD and 1 level of monk). But for getting xp after killing things and taking their stuff you count as a 9th level character. Not sure about whether you count as 9th or 5th for treasure, but I think 9th.
#3 hodgie25 Apr 22, 2011 23:39:15	Just about any book is avaliable. Only book I know of that isn't is the poisoncraft handbook. I see, the HD don't add in for character level, just LA. So yes, this would be a 5th level equivalent character. Oh well, thats still like what, 4 feats? Less, but I can deal. Also, for the improved natural attack, do fists count as natural attacks? I think they should, but that would give all characters natural attacks because they have fists. And aren't there some prestige classes you can only take if you have a natural attack? That kind of breaks those. What book is superior unarmed strike from? I don't know what Bo9S is.
#4 hodgie25 Apr 23, 2011 2:46:11	Also I do have 7 feats cause I'm taking 2 flaws, murky eyed and shaky. Cause when will I use ranged attacks ever when I can just go oh, sorry is that my fist down your throat?
#5 Captain_Kobold Apr 23, 2011 4:54:55	I see, the HD don't add in for character level, just LA. So yes, this would be a 5th level equivalent character. Oh well, thats still like what, 4 feats? Less, but I can deal. No. Its just the HD, including dice from character level. So you have 2 feats: 1 from starting HD, 1 from 3 HD. (Plus any you get from flaws.) Also, for the improved natural attack, do fists count as natural attacks? I think they should, but that would give all characters natural attacks because they have fists. And aren't there some prestige classes you can only take if you have a natural attack? That kind of breaks those. What book is superior unarmed strike from? I don't know what Bo9S is. Monks have a special rule that their fists do count as Natural attacks or manufactured weapons for the purposes of effects that improve them, so Improved Natural Attack is fine. You will have to wait until you gain a level to pick that one up though. (The feat you get at 6HD (ECL 10) will be the first one where you count as a Monk.) Superior Unarmed Strike is from the Tome of Battle (ToB) also known as the Book of Nine Swords (Bo9S).
#6 hodgie25 Apr 23, 2011 9:06:47	I get 7 feats, 2 from 5 hit die (4 from doppleganger, 1 from monk), 2 from monstorous levels, 1 from being monk level 1, and 2 from flaws. Oh, and my monk bonus feat.
#7 Particle_Man Apr 23, 2011 9:47:24	Sorry but the feats you get from 4 HD doppleganger are, in fact, the feats you get from 4 montrous humanoid levels. So you get 6 feats (2 from 5 HD, 2 from flaws, 2 from monk (one of which is Improved Unarmed Strike)). Since your racial HD come "first", that means you get Improved Unarmed Strike and your other monk bonus feat most recently, so you can't use the other 4 feats to take anything for which Improved Unarmed Strike is a prerequisite (so you have to wait for Superior Unarmed Strike, alas). Similarly, since your non-monk feats come when you have BAB +1 or BAB +3, you cannot yet take Improved Natural Attack.
#8 hodgie25 Apr 23, 2011 10:07:49	Okay, I get you now. That pretty much sucks. So these 4 feats will be dump feats until I can retrain them? Or something else.
#9 Captain_Kobold Apr 23, 2011 12:26:19	They are feats. Why would they be regarded as "dump" feats? Remember that you have to obey the prerequisites for the point at which you obtained the feat, even if you retrain it. What sort of thing do you want to do? If there are feats with no prerequisites that are required for prestige classes that you are after, you could pick those up. Its probably worth pointing out that you also only have one ability point increase. They follow the same system as feats do.
#10 hodgie25 Apr 23, 2011 14:15:27	Yeah. But I haven't really found any feats that work until I get the 2nd level of monk and the bonus feat that goes with it. Then I get the feat, retrain another into something I can't get until that 2nd level where I actually count as a monk.
#11 Captain_Kobold Apr 23, 2011 18:24:51	You can't retrain to get a feat that you couldn't have taken when you first got the feat slot. The two feats that you get from HD for example, could not be retrained into feats that require monk levels, because you didn't have Monk levels when you get those slots. Likewise the feats you get from flaws, since I think you get those at 1st HD. Basically, the only feat slots that you will be able to use to get feats requiring 2nd level of Monk will be the ones that you get after you hit that 2nd level of Monk. I think that the only exceptions are feats requiring other feats as prerequisites.
#12 hodgie25 Apr 23, 2011 18:41:29	Oh, that sucks. I understand the rule tho. So which feats should I take then? I want to dish out as much pain as possible (obvious). And whatever else the monk is good at. I also need items, most likely a necklace of natural attacks.
#13 hodgie25 Apr 28, 2011 8:03:04	So I still don't know what feats would be best, because I can't take any monk feats.
#14 Captain_Kobold Apr 28, 2011 9:39:16	Are there any feats that are prerequisites for Warshaper and Fist of the Forest? You could also look at things like Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Combat reflexes, Combat Expertise or Blind Fight. These are basic feats with minimal reqiurements but if you want them in your build, you may as well pick them up now. As to items, a Monk's Belt is the obvious. An Amulet of Mighty Fists (3.5 ed version of the Amulet of Natural Attacks) is also good, particularly if you don't have a pocket spellcaster to buff your attacks. Some effect that allows you more mobility such as Flight can also be handy. For weaponry, if your DM allows Scorpion Kama variations, that can be good. Bracers of Armour. Again unless you have the pet spellcaster. You might want to have a good think about whether you will be attacking unarmed or with weapons. Your unarmed attacks will be lagging behind because of your LA and monstrous humanoid levels. Fortunately your weapon attacks won't be, since you have access to ECL 9 wealth. What sort of person is this monk character going to be? What do you see them doing? What sort of items will help them do it?
#15 hodgie25 Apr 28, 2011 18:42:07	Fist of the forest needs power attack, Improved unarmed strike, and Power attack. Warshaper just needs 4 BAB, and shapechanging. I will not be using weapons, I'm gonna use the extra money to buy things I need as opposed to enchanting weapons. He will be a melee fighter taking on things with fists and elbows flying. Anything that increases his damage output is a good choice.