Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 bloodofgods Mar 28, 2008 17:49:13	The extend feat makes a spell double it duration. Creeping cold has a duration of 3 rounds and it does 1d6 first round 2d6 second round 3d6 third round I was wondering if anyone knew the official rules that states what happens if you double the spells duration? does it continue to improve to do 4d6 and 5d6 and 6d6? does it stay at 3d6 for the remaining rounds, or does nothing happen at all. A second level spell doing 21d6 damage after only being extended is a little insane, and I was wondering if the extent on this is just a house rule for many or if there are any concrete rules on this spell? thanks everyone, and thanks for clarifying the many many gray spots that come with the druid
#2 Chaos_Redefined Mar 28, 2008 18:03:15	The rules are as you say: a 3rd level spell (2nd level, +1 for extend) is capable of dealing 21d6 damage, by RAW. Makes the spell still useful at higher levels. The houserules i've heard of being used are: 1) restart the clock after the 3 rounds, so you deal 1d6, 2d6, 3d6, 1d6, 2d6, 3d6, or something to that effect 2) cap the damage per turn, making it 1d6, 2d6, 3d6, 3d6, 3d6, 3d6.
#3 x-codes Mar 28, 2008 20:05:54	The rules are as you say: a 3rd level spell (2nd level, +1 for extend) is capable of dealing 21d6 damage, by RAW. Makes the spell still useful at higher levels. The houserules i've heard of being used are: 1) restart the clock after the 3 rounds, so you deal 1d6, 2d6, 3d6, 1d6, 2d6, 3d6, or something to that effect 2) cap the damage per turn, making it 1d6, 2d6, 3d6, 3d6, 3d6, 3d6. Both of which are somewhat lacking in brain matter because it's still a single-target spell that deals what eventually amounts to pathetic damage. Anything with Cold Resistance 5 or more can all but ignore the spell, even extended. Now, if you could get it on the Warmage spell list for Warmage Edge, then you're on to something.
#4 bloodofgods Mar 29, 2008 0:25:22	However, the reason I am asking this is because shouldn't the spell be considered an instant cast time? I mean, it lasts 3 rounds, but you don't have to concentrate on it, and the person takes that amount of damage no matter what you do? I often hear the argument that wizards only wanted it to deal the 1d6, 2d6, 3d6, and extend should not work because it can be considered instantaneous casting time. The spell iteself says in the first round they take 1d6, on the second 2d6, and on the third they take 3d6. the reason that I think that it cannot do 21d6 damage is because NO WHERE in the spell does it say the damage continues to increase when the number of rounds are increased. And just because something with cold resistance 5 can mostly negate it does not mean that the spell combination is not still overpowered... Not everything has cold resistance 5, and most things that do you simply don't use it on.... I guess it just seems wrong that a 3rd level spell can do up to 21d6 damage when no other 3rd level spell can come even close to these numbers...
#5 icefractal Mar 29, 2008 2:38:57	no other 3rd level spell can come even close to these numbers... Produce Flame (1st level). Can throw up to (caster level) flame balls dealing up to 1d6+5 each. At 20th level, damage = 20d6+100 = ~48d6. Now yes, that does require continuing actions (which can be combined with other attacks), but it's a 1st level spell. Time is the most important commodity in combat, and the power of damage-over-time spells is determined more by damage/round than total damage. Even with a normal 3-round Creeping Cold, some of the duration is often wasted. With an extended one, it will be a rare circumstance to get the full benefit.
#6 bloodofgods Mar 29, 2008 14:30:31	Produce Flame (1st level). Can throw up to (caster level) flame balls dealing up to 1d6+5 each. At 20th level, damage = 20d6+100 = ~48d6. Now yes, that does require continuing actions (which can be combined with other attacks), but it's a 1st level spell. Time is the most important commodity in combat, and the power of damage-over-time spells is determined more by damage/round than total damage. Even with a normal 3-round Creeping Cold, some of the duration is often wasted. With an extended one, it will be a rare circumstance to get the full benefit. This I have noticed but the group that I play in have just come to rely on the creeping cold by itself. combat basically goes like this. Druid, you see that bad ass boss monster? well i'll take it... You see those 3 dying minions that look like they fell into poison and have 3 constitution.. You 4 take those. And it works that way because of his insane saves, great armor class in wild form. I just find a problem with this logic...
#7 eldritch_lord Mar 29, 2008 15:56:36	the reason that I think that it cannot do 21d6 damage is because NO WHERE in the spell does it say the damage continues to increase when the number of rounds are increased. It says that it deals a cumulative 1d6 per round; the 1d6-2d6-3d6 is an example.
#8 deckinhand Mar 29, 2008 16:11:33	the reason that I think that it cannot do 21d6 damage is because NO WHERE in the spell does it say the damage continues to increase when the number of rounds are increased. You really ought to read more carefully. The spell says "The subject takes 1d6 cumulative points of damage per round" and then gives the example of three rounds, which is the ordinary duration of the spell. A RAW interpretation would not seem to rule out a 1d6, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 5d6, and 6d6 cumulative effect if the spell were extended. Now, I'm not arguing that that's how it should be, but I do think it's useful to actually read the text carefully before WRITING IN ALL CAPS.
#9 bloodofgods Mar 29, 2008 16:12:21	It says that it deals a cumulative 1d6 per round; the 1d6-2d6-3d6 is an example. Are you absolutely sure that is not greater creeping cold... I know that one says this but im pretty sure regular creeping cold does not
#10 x-codes Mar 29, 2008 16:14:33	This I have noticed but the group that I play in have just come to rely on the creeping cold by itself. combat basically goes like this. Druid, you see that bad ass boss monster? well i'll take it... You see those 3 dying minions that look like they fell into poison and have 3 constitution.. You 4 take those. And it works that way because of his insane saves, great armor class in wild form. I just find a problem with this logic... Druids are overpowered. It's a fact of life. This has nothing to do with Creeping Cold which is a pretty weak spell. Also, your references to instantaneous casting time are making my brain hurt. It's called DURATION. Instantaneous DURATION. Also, as for the rarity of Cold Resistance, it's not that rare. Theres another 2nd/3rd-level spell on just about every spell list called Resist Energy. That can give Cold Resistance 10. It even has a mass version at 3rd/4th level.
#11 bloodofgods Mar 29, 2008 16:16:23	Druids are overpowered. It's a fact of life. This has nothing to do with Creeping Cold which is a pretty weak spell. Also, your references to instantaneous casting time are making my brain hurt. It's called DURATION. Instantaneous DURATION. Also, as for the rarity of Cold Resistance, it's not that rare. Theres another 2nd/3rd-level spell on just about every spell list called Resist Energy. That can give Cold Resistance 10. It even has a mass version at 3rd/4th level. I suppose this is true :D Anyways most people seem set in their ways that this spell increases to 4d6 5d6 and 6d6. Looks like its time to talk to a DM
#12 bloodofgods Mar 29, 2008 16:17:44	And X-Codes, I'm sorry for hurting your fragile brain
#13 eldritch_lord Mar 29, 2008 16:39:50	Are you absolutely sure that is not greater creeping cold... I know that one says this but im pretty sure regular creeping cold does not Both of them say "The subject takes 1d6 cumulative points of damage per round"; the regular gives the 1d6-2d6-3d6 example and greater adds a 4d6-etc. example.
#14 bloodofgods Mar 29, 2008 16:41:52	Both of them say "The subject takes 1d6 cumulative points of damage per round"; the regular gives the 1d6-2d6-3d6 example and greater adds a 4d6-etc. example. Good to know... Stupid D&D. Makes me hate it every day and then love it every night. It's like a life partner.
#15 Chaos_Redefined Mar 29, 2008 17:01:15	As I said, straight at the beginning, RAW it works. An instantaneous duration wouldn't work, because it has an effect that goes for 3 rounds. It does specify that the damage raises by 1d6 each round, hence making it 4, 5, and 6d6 damage in the later rounds. I will agree with the point that most combats don't last 6 rounds. In a lot of cases, the spell will deal 3d6 or 6d6, and the extra spell level will be a waste. However, the fact that cold resistance 5 makes the damage negligible is not that important, since, at level 5 (when extended creeping cold becomes available), cold resistance isn't that common. As for the druid being overpowered: I dump entangle on the lot of them. They aren't moving. I then use (depending on level) a spell, reserve feat or wildshape forms ability to kill them off with a bit of range. They can't hit me when I'm doing this, since they are all over there, while I am over here. That can be done with core, if you really want. (Produce Flame/Call Lightning to kill them off. Or just baboon with a sling.)
#16 bloodofgods Mar 29, 2008 17:05:19	As I said, straight at the beginning, RAW it works. An instantaneous duration wouldn't work, because it has an effect that goes for 3 rounds. It does specify that the damage raises by 1d6 each round, hence making it 4, 5, and 6d6 damage in the later rounds. I will agree with the point that most combats don't last 6 rounds. In a lot of cases, the spell will deal 3d6 or 6d6, and the extra spell level will be a waste. However, the fact that cold resistance 5 makes the damage negligible is not that important, since, at level 5 (when extended creeping cold becomes available), cold resistance isn't that common. As for the druid being overpowered: I dump entangle on the lot of them. They aren't moving. I then use (depending on level) a spell, reserve feat or wildshape forms ability to kill them off with a bit of range. They can't hit me when I'm doing this, since they are all over there, while I am over here. That can be done with core, if you really want. (Produce Flame/Call Lightning to kill them off. Or just baboon with a sling.) Are you saying that to kill a druid you need the DRUID spell entangle? I'm sorry if I misread that but that seems to be what you are saying lol
#17 Chaos_Redefined Mar 29, 2008 18:02:02	No, I'm saying that entangle is a good way of defeating things as a druid. Creeping cold is a 2nd level spell that allows the enemy to beat you over the head while they die. Entangle is a 1st level spell that stops them beating you over the head, and you can choose your favourite method of killing them. Blasting is what casters do when they can't think of anything better to do. Battlefield control, buffs and debuffs make the enemy useless in a much more efficient manner, while leaving your companions that satisfactory feeling that they did something useful.
#18 x-codes Mar 29, 2008 19:36:41	Good to know... Stupid D&D. Makes me hate it every day and then love it every night. It's like a life partner. Don't say that or Erik Sofge will make a web article insulting you.
#19 bloodofgods Mar 30, 2008 0:38:25	No, I'm saying that entangle is a good way of defeating things as a druid. Creeping cold is a 2nd level spell that allows the enemy to beat you over the head while they die. Entangle is a 1st level spell that stops them beating you over the head, and you can choose your favourite method of killing them. Blasting is what casters do when they can't think of anything better to do. Battlefield control, buffs and debuffs make the enemy useless in a much more efficient manner, while leaving your companions that satisfactory feeling that they did something useful. Oh of course bud. Druids are great battle field control, i was just addressing this general point =)