I'm looking to build a Rogue/Sorcerer/Unseen Seer/Arcane Trickster type character. I may also give him the air subtype from UA, but I have to reread that to see if he's eligible. I may also go with some Spellthief instead of Rogue, but that's not too important.
I'm playing 3.5, level 1 up, most books are readily available except alternate system books like Bo9S, Psionics, and most campaign specific material.
The goal is to be fairly optimal down the Unseen Seer path, so race/monster choice needs to be along those lines. In particular, if I use a monster class, it needs to advance the Rogue abilities, Arcane casting levels, or both - then I'll finish with whatever base class I'm lacking before going Unseen Seer.
He has weakish stats, so that's one of the reason I'm going with a Monster Class (to bring him up to par with the rest of the group). I'm thinking Aranea (Savage Species, pg 154), because it seems to work well with this particular build.
I am using level adjustment buyoff, combined with the monster class progression, which is key to allowing maximum gain from his spell casting. Speaking of spellcasting, his spells will focus on his primary job (sneak/rogue/face/beguiler and charm type/movement), not blasting, summoning, etc..
Lastly, for story purposes, I like Aranea, because this character will likely create his own small/specialized thieves guild/spy network, and the shapeshifting and even monstrous nature will be a plus.
Here's my questions:
1) Is this a good or poor choice of monster class from an optimization standpoint. I don't need the very best race possible, but I do need a solid race based on my level requirements and class choices. Keep in mind I need to play level one up, and his starting power level should be in the 1st to 2nd level range (thus my use of monster class levels in this case). So he could instead go with a low LA race or template like whisper gnome, or something, but Aranea actually seems very solid to me for this one type of build. I particularly like Aranea sorcerer spell casting, which keeps that fairly up-to-par. I'm not 100% stuck on Aranea, so other race choices are possible, but this seems solid.
2) Where can I find the most up-to-date information regarding what abilities/characteristics the Aranea keeps while in humanoid form? Do his ability scores change for example when changing forms.
2a) What races do I have access to RAW for his humanoid alternate form choice? What are the limitations?
3) In conjunction with #2, what are good choices for this type of character for his humanoid form? Whisper Gnome seems solid, and perhaps even some variety of elf for the secret doors feature and some immunities. But I'm not sure what other races I would have access to RAW.
4) Any tips/advice/links to ways to gain more spells known for the Sorcerer side would be helpful. I don't usually play sorcerers (I prefer Wiz normally).
5) Aranea casts as a Sorcerer and gains spells as such. Is there any RAW way to change this to Wizard?
6) Lastly, let's say I pick up a level of Sorcerer at some point, and gain a familiar. Do his 3 OTHER Sorcerer levels from Aranea have any impact on his level dependent familiar benefits?
I'm not new to 3.5, but I am newish to using monsters as characters. Thanks in advance for any tips and rules clarifications.
If you definitely want a monster race to bolster your stats, I would suggest a sylph from the Monster Manual 2-- I have a monster class for the race on my website. Otherwise, if you want to post your actual stats we can recommend alternatives.
2 and 3) The 3.5 Monster Manual and look at the errata on the Wizards of the Coast site. It doesn't list any, so presumably you can choose whatever you like-- you might want to take a look at something more substantial than the whisper gnome though, like lizardfolk, bugbear, or some of the higher ECL humanoids. Double check with your DM here if you go with aranea.
4) Check out dragon magazine's bloodline feats-- there are a number of other guides as well. Check out the handy links for key words to search on.
5) No.
6) No effect, the sorcerer casting is just that-- casting, it doesn't include other class features. You could use an alternate class feature and substitute it away, then take the Obtain Familiar feat though. At that point it would be based off of your caster level.
1) If you're looking to be on the same power level as other characters with a spellcaster, a monster race is going to need to be very specific. Aranea are ECL 7 with a caster level of 3-- this means that you are going to be 4 levels behind a regular sorcerer, who is already 1 spell level behind a wizard. Multiclassing further into rogue beyond that... well, it just isn't likely to come out as well as you're hoping. You're going to be using 1st level spells when everyone else in the party is using 4th level.
If you definitely want a monster race to bolster your stats, I would suggest a sylph from the Monster Manual 2-- I have a monster class for the race on my website. Otherwise, if you want to post your actual stats we can recommend alternatives.
2 and 3) The 3.5 Monster Manual and look at the errata on the Wizards of the Coast site. It doesn't list any, so presumably you can choose whatever you like-- you might want to take a look at something more substantial than the whisper gnome though, like lizardfolk, bugbear, or some of the higher ECL humanoids. Double check with your DM here if you go with aranea.
6) You could use an alternate class feature and substitute it away, then take the Obtain Familiar feat though. At that point it would be based off of your caster level.
Thanks Balthanon - good points...
I'm not super worried about the ecl effects in this case, because this character is primarily a magical Rogue, rather than a straight caster, but it is definitely something I am taking into consideration. Aranea would obviously be a poor choice for straight caster. So my goals would be to ultimately wind up like other Unseen Seer's with some extras. I don't expect this character to be on par with straight casters, but I do expect him to be close to on par with other Unseen Seer type builds as he progresses. With the monster class progression I have 7 ECL, caster level 3, so at early levels I'll be quite behind (especially adding Rogue). However, I'll be using level adjustment buyoff, so before level 20 (with the monster class), I'll be only one caster level behind a typical Unseen Seer. So, early levels I'll be well behind a sorcerer (and will always be), a few levels behind an Unseen Seer, but I'll have a lot more natural capability due to my race (and humanoid race choice/abilities). But at higher levels, I'll all but catch up to other Unseen Seer's of similar level.
The casting goals are to become a more versatile rogue or beguiler type, so I'll be using primarily utility, charm, illusion, divination, and movement spells.
That having been said, it is certainly something I am looking at, so more optimal monster classes are certainly options. Boosting my ability scores is not the primary reason I want a monster class, but it is one of the beneficial pieces of the puzzle. The faster movement, the web, the poison, the climb, the stats, the sorcer levels, the vision, and the alternate forms (with their special abilities) is what caught my attention. The alternate forms alone really fit well with this type of character. My initial build was going to be (UA) air whisper gnome, but I'm in the process of seeing if I can get some general usefulness out of Savage Species.
2 and 3) I'll have to look in more detail about the humanoid race choices. If there is no limitation, and I assume much of their physical capabilities, I will not limit myself to just whisper gnome. However, I will likely take a stealthy type of race rather than a physical one. I don't see this character going toe-to-toe a lot, if he can help it. If I can use wings in my alternate form, I may take a winged humanoid as an option. Of course, that all but eliminates my need for climb...
6) That's pretty much what I figured. ACF then Obtain familiar was my next option if I went down that path - good suggestion.
Other opinions/clarifications/recommendation are definitely welcomed.
I probably should have rephrased the original question somewhat to perhaps get more response:
What low LA races (+0, +1), or what monster classes would make a better Unseen Seer than Aranea (If I use level adjustment buyoff)?
I don't mind being behind the power curve initially (regarding spells), but I'd like to be pretty much on par with other Unseen Seer's by the end of the build with level adjustment buyoff.
Obviously, I'm looking for monster classes that give either good casting progression, or enhance rogue type abilities, or both.
The ONLY reason Aranea works in my situation is because of the level adjustment buyoff, thus bringing the caster levels up to par. Without it, I'd be far behind other Unseen Seers at all levels, let alone straight casters, and I probably wouldn't consider it.
LA buy-off doesn't seem to do much for aranea. Savage species says “a monster character may not multiclass until it completes the full progression of its monster class.” Racial HD and LA don't count toward when you can buy off LA. So, you have to completely finish the monster class before you can work on getting rid of the LA, at which point you'll have LA +4. Your can't reduce LA +4 to +3 until you have 12 class levels, not counting racial HD and LA. That puts you at ECL 19 when LA buy-off first comes into play.
LA buy-off doesn't seem to do much for aranea. Savage species says “a monster character may not multiclass until it completes the full progression of its monster class.” Racial HD and LA don't count toward when you can buy off LA. So, you have to completely finish the monster class before you can work on getting rid of the LA, at which point you'll have LA +4. Your can't reduce LA +4 to +3 until you have 12 class levels, not counting racial HD and LA. That puts you at ECL 19 when LA buy-off first comes into play.
AHA!
That's a great point, and exactly why I posted here. I'm newish to the Monsters as characters thing, so that was very helpful - I had overlooked the HD in the LA buyoff process. I was aware that I wouldn't be using LA buyoff until the moster progression was complete, but miscalculated when I would be able to use it.
So, here's my breakdown of the spell levels if I use Aranea vs. a straight sorcerer:
Aranea:
gets spell levels at 2, 4, 6th level, so...
2nd level = 1st level caster
4th level = 2nd level caster
6th level = 3rd level caster
8th level = 4th level caster
20th level with no rogue and LA buyoff = 17th level caster (8th level spells)
20th level with rogue 1 and LA buyoff = 16th level caster
It wouldn't be until epic level before his caster side catches up to within one spell level of a standard sorcerer, or within 2 if taking a level of Rogue.
Not horrible based on the build goal (Unseen Seer), but certainly far behind in power to a straight sorcerer.
That will impact the available races quite a bit. Savage Species really only had divine casting available in monster classes that were actually worthwhile. Now mind you, at low levels, several of those were more than on par with a regular race. A ghaele eladrin from 1st to 5th level will destroy anything else you put it up against and they only start falling behind in the least way past 15th level in my opinion.
As far as other Unseen Seers are concerned... most of them are actually going to be either full casters or at most a single level of rogue down. They'll also likely be based off of wizard rather than sorcerer (more Int synergy).
In general, of the Savage Species monster races... I would probably go with a Pixie for an Unseen Seer if you don't have access to Sylph. It's the same LA as the Aranea, but it doesn't need to take racial hit dice (you should be able to swap out the 1st hit die for a class level). Beyond that, the special abilities are far superior to an Aranea as a rule and they're incredibly well suited to a stealth character. The ability score bonuses are excellent for a rogue/wizard and overall you should be in very good shape.
I actually played a rogue/wizard pixie before Unseen Seer (and most combination classes or the concept of LA buyoff) were even available and I was satisfied with it. So I doubt you would have any problems. Greater invisibility at will makes things so much easier.
If you have access to other books, there are better options, but we'll need to know which books that includes before we can recommend anything else. If you would rather stick with aranea because you like the flavor, we can work with that too, though you will probably want to focus on the rogue component more than the caster. (Possibly something like Aranea 3/Rogue 2/Unseen Seer 10/Spellwarp Sniper 5?) This would be true of the pixie as well, of course. You're not going to compete with a straight caster with 4 caster levels lost unless you're playing something like a black ethergaunt (which is actually only 3 caster levels lost).
Balthanon:
I have pretty much all non alternate system books (No Psionics/ TOB, for example), or Campaign specific (no Oriental either). Exceptions are: I don't have MM4 or 5, but I do have Eberron Campaign Setting. I pretty much have every other book (including 3.0) with a couple rare exceptions.
So, pretty much any book is okay such as Fiendish Codex's, Fiend Folio, MM1-3, Planar handbook, Race series, environment series, etc.
No Dragon mag, or third party material. (I will use some Dragon mag stuff, but don't have physical access to it).
Normally I use Wiz with Unseen Seer builds (for the Int synergy that you mentioned, and also for more quantity spell access). I often end Unseen Seer with Arcane trickster, but there's some other directions I'll go in such as Shadowdancer, Shadowcraft Mage, etc. depending on the character.
Pixie was the other direction I was considering, but liked Aranea's flavor better for the head of a spy network/thieves guild. But I haven't ruled pixie out by any means at this stage, and that is definitely in the running.
I have no intentions of keeping up to par with a straight caster. The casting side of things is exclusively to enhance his flavor, and to make him more potent at his job - though I do want the spell side to be reasonably solid for illusion/charm, and some bfc spells. In particular, spells will enhance the "beguiler" portion of his job description. Having limited intentions for the spells is one reason I can go Sorcerer instead of Wiz, where normally I'll almost always go Wiz over Sorc.