Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 post_ironic Mar 01, 2009 15:10:36	Core only build. I have no real experience with Psionics, so suggestions on how to contend with that are very welcome. This will be my first CoCo character. Str 8, Dex 14, Con 16, Wis 18, Int 10, Cha 10. (36 pt buy.) Human, Druid, 3rd Level. Feats: Spell Focus Conjuration, Augment Summoning, (?) Low Level Animal Companion: Riding Dog Trained for War(?) Intended Feats: Natural Spell, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple. Very open to suggestions. Potential Gear (3k gold): Dragonhide Breastplate. Melee weapon-something to be enhanced with Shillelagh. (Short) Spear? Club? Darkwood Heavy Shield. Ranged Weapon of indeterminate type (sling?). Wand of CLW, Entangle, and/or Obscuring Mist. Should I take CWI or Scribe Scroll for reduced consumable cost? Would Psychic Hole be a worthwhile feat to take to neutralize or at least mitigate psionic competitors? Suggestions, criticisms, and interesting tactics are very welcome. I have consulted the Druid Handbook (by Carnivore, I think), and have found it quite helpful.
#2 jameswilliamogle Mar 01, 2009 15:44:32	I'd suggest ignoring the psionics, were I you, as Druids are pretty feat-heavy already. I don't like crafting feats on the Druid, personally... Remember that everything except for Scribe Scroll can be used on other characters.
#3 post_ironic Mar 01, 2009 17:47:55	If I ignore my psionics, what would you suggest for the Human bonus feat then?
#4 jameswilliamogle Mar 01, 2009 17:54:57	I think you got it right: 1,b SF: Conjuration, Augment Summoning 3 Improved Unarmed Strike <- useful for getting your BAB + nattie attacks while w.s. (very useful for pounce forms) 6 Natural Spell 9 Improved Grapple <- useful as an anti-caster strategy (again, useful for pounce forms, which don't always have imp. grab) 12 Quicken Spell 15 Power Attack <- filler feat, at this point 18 Improved Sunder <- sure, you lose your loot, but... you're already near the end of the campaign, so screw it. So, if you want to take the anti-psionic feat, do it at or after L9. I don't think its going to make a big difference: your Will save is going to be awesome, and the worst Psionic powers mess with that.
#5 post_ironic Mar 01, 2009 18:37:28	Improved Sunder won't really make a difference in treasure loss, since CoCo is an arena style combat. Loot and XP are predetermined, and damaged items (not consumables, thought) are returned after a fight cycle. Do you think Power Attack will be worth it? Its just filler, and I fear for my BAB. Im still considering CWI, since gaining stat bump items on the cheap and earlier would result in an advantage. Also, is IUS worth taking that early? I won't have w.s until 5th, and the truly grapple-worthy forms don't really come online immediately. Should something else go there? I'm still trying to round out tactics. Summoning is a must, and grapples once wildshape comes online. I worry about staying competitive against blaster mages and ranged fighters though...
#6 jameswilliamogle Mar 01, 2009 19:24:35	IUS is an extra attack, essentially, as soon as you do get wildshape forms. You can't really take it at 6th, though, so I bumped it up a bit (I'd rather take it at 3rd than 9th). PA, even in core, is worth it with ridiculous Str, which you'll get. It'll apply full damage even if the attack only gets 1/2 your Str mod, which is nice. I've never been a fan of CWI - if you look at the minimum CL required to make items that you'd really want, you can't really do anything cool with it until L10+, when you can reliably afford the items you'd make. Not only that, but depending on which version of Wildshape you play with, you might be screwed out of wearable magic items. Thats nice about the Imp Sunder... Combined w/ a Pounce form, this can be a very effective anti-caster tactic at mid levels (particularly if they're unprepared). Sunder the spell component pouch / holy symbol and then they're screwed (unless they thought of buying multiple). I'd try to take it even earlier in this case. If you can avoid it, I'd skip on the Augment Summoning and prereq, as thats two more nice feats you can have for combat, and just +4 Str / +4 Con isn't quite as effective as I wish it was... Summons are better just to mess up casters and stay in the way, imo.
#7 post_ironic Mar 01, 2009 20:18:40	What about Multiattack feats? Since they're technically core from the MM, I might be able to argue for them. Would they be a worthy investment? I really like the Sundering Pounce tactic, too. If I drop the Augment Summoning chain, that frees up 2 feats. Any suggestions? Extend Spell for buffs? I would consider Improved Trip, but I'd hate to blow a 13 Int just to get Combat Expertise. You have, at least convinced me about CWI. Improved Initiative might help to get the drop on people, especially at low levels when I'm summoning. As an aside, I havent seen anything in the various Druid Handbooks on suggested feats for a companion. Since grappling and tripping is usually included in the animal's normal build, are there any other nice selections?
#8 sofawall Mar 01, 2009 20:40:29	IGNORE THIS LOL! Well, Seeing as how I like the whole Fleshraker/Venomfire combo, Multiattack and Ability Focus (Poison) works for me. CEASE IGNORING! Imp. Natural Armour? Imp. Trip/Grapple? What is your companion going to be used for? Edit: Oops, 3rd level... Hmm... Tricky... Martial Study/Stance?
#9 post_ironic Mar 01, 2009 20:52:06	Martial Study/Stance is out, since its core, as is, sadly, the Fleshraker. I did just notice that the Core Coliseum IGNORES CL requirements for magic item crafting. Thus, crafting an Amulet of Health no longer requires CL 8 as per the DMG, just the capactiy to cast Bear's Endurance of the appropriate level. This might make an argument for taking CWI.
#10 jameswilliamogle Mar 01, 2009 21:10:06	Then, CWI is more valuable... I'll let you adjucate how much so, though. I don't know how down-time works for CoCo. You can put both Power Attack and IUS on your Animal Companion; I recomend both. Depending on the form, Imp. Grapple could be good, too, and/or Imp Overrun or Bull Rush. I love Improved Overrun, and put it on almost all my straight-Fighters. Cleave is good, too (though not Great Cleave, oddly enough). IUS is essentially an extra attack w/ a full-round for your natural attack critters, or more, with no penalty.
#11 sofawall Mar 01, 2009 21:14:30	Oh, right, core... IUS? All that comes to mind there is Improved Unarmed Strike, am I thinking of the same thing you are? If so, I don't understand.
#12 hogarth Mar 01, 2009 21:35:58	Just something to point out: if you want to win a lot in the Core Coliseum, you need three out of four things: a (mostly) full caster manifester allies of some sort a huge variety of expendable items good tactics One thing I'll tell you, though; druids in the Core Coliseum almost never fight in melee (that I've seen). By the time you get to level 5 or 6, your opponents will either be able to fly (e.g. riding a hippogriff or casting some sort of spell), or they will be melee monsters who are better than you, or they will be pretty wimpy anyways. In general, the ability to ride a mount and use scrolls/wands is a huge advantage; it's not really worth losing it by being in wild shape all the time. [post=9624404]My CoCo druid Treetall Oakleg[/post] doesn't even have Natural Spell (shock!) or Augment Summoning (double shock! -- although if I had to choose his feats again, I'd probably take it). Another thing: don't rely on your summoning too much; lots of people carry potions of Protection from Evil, which sort of puts a damper on that kind of thing. I think you got it right: 1,b SF: Conjuration, Augment Summoning 3 Improved Unarmed Strike <- useful for getting your BAB + nattie attacks while w.s. (very useful for pounce forms) 6 Natural Spell 9 Improved Grapple <- useful as an anti-caster strategy (again, useful for pounce forms, which don't always have imp. grab) 12 Quicken Spell 15 Power Attack <- filler feat, at this point 18 Improved Sunder <- sure, you lose your loot, but... you're already near the end of the campaign, so screw it. So, if you want to take the anti-psionic feat, do it at or after L9. I don't think its going to make a big difference: your Will save is going to be awesome, and the worst Psionic powers mess with that. My advice: less melee feats, and definitely take Craft Wondrous Item. Scribe Scroll is O.K., but not nearly as good as CWI. For a very successful druid, take a look at [post=11908436]Elrick Flamebrother[/post]; he's had a very successful career. Look at his fights to get a feel for what a druid fight might look like. P.S. Extra cheesy advice -- craft Dust of Sneezing and Choking and get a flunky to deliver it for you.
#13 post_ironic Mar 01, 2009 21:54:48	Thanks for the advice, Hogarth. I'm poring over the druid builds now. Looking at the fights I've seen, I have noticed that CoCoers use and carry a ton of expendables. I am toying with the idea of taking ranks in Ride and making my Animal Companion a mount, though I'm very concerned about facing flying grapplers in that context. I may postpone my build longer than expected, or I may simply just crank out a druid and cast him by the wayside in favor of a better build once I have some experience under my belt. Regarding Prot Evil: I totally forgot about that. That seriously hampers the druids style as far as summons go. Perhaps a druid isn't the way to go at all... I may have to totally rethink this. Sigh. EDIT: I'm reading up on some old fights. Very cute of you to take only free gear at low levels and blow all your cash on the Bag of Tricks. Also, where is the Dust of Sneezing and Choking? I can't find it in the DMG...
#14 hogarth Mar 01, 2009 22:00:25	Regarding Prot Evil: I totally forgot about that. That seriously hampers the druids style as far as summons go. Perhaps a druid isn't the way to go at all... I may have to totally rethink this. Sigh. My advice: Don't be discouraged and play something that you will enjoy. Druids actually do quite well at low levels, generally; the ability to gang up on an enemy (with summons and an animal companion) is priceless. Buy a mount, too (a light horse) for even more fun. Even if your opponent has Protection from Evil going (and that's not a sure thing by any means), you still have great spells like Produce Flame and Entangle to mess around with. There'll be times when it'll be hard to win, but c'est la vie. If you try to avoid every possible losing situation before you even start, you'll just drive yourself crazy!
#15 post_ironic Mar 01, 2009 22:45:26	Thanks very much for the advice. I've had several character ideas kicking around for CoCo boards, but it seems like I'd be retreading pretty well-worn ground, as so many different character types have been made. I'm also considering taking Middle Aged on my druid to improve his mental stats. The Constitution loss is unfortunate, but worth the gains I think.
#16 jameswilliamogle Mar 02, 2009 7:17:13	Take Hogarth's advice; he seems to be much better versed at CoCo than I (I've never played it, in fact, so my suggestions were more for a core druid in normal campaigns, which I have played).
#17 post_ironic Mar 02, 2009 11:39:21	To be honest, everyone's advice has been helpful. It seems that consumables are the name of the game in CoCo, so I'll definitely have to invest some of my initial 3000 gold in wands and scrolls. Obvious choices include: CLW, Obscuring Mist, Entangle, Faerie Fire, Produce Flame. Are there any particularly awesome Core Druid spells I'm missing?
#18 hogarth Mar 02, 2009 11:57:49	To be honest, everyone's advice has been helpful. It seems that consumables are the name of the game in CoCo, so I'll definitely have to invest some of my initial 3000 gold in wands and scrolls. Obvious choices include: CLW, Obscuring Mist, Entangle, Faerie Fire, Produce Flame. Are there any particularly awesome Core Druid spells I'm missing? A wand of CLW can be a lifesaver. Note that in the Core Coliseum, you can buy scrolls/wands of Subdual Substitution Produce Flame or Energy Substitution [Sonic] Produce Flame for no extra cost (using the appropriate metamagic feats from the Divine SRD). A scroll of Resist Energy or (especially) Delay Poison crafted by a ranger could come in handy; there are characters out there that use drow poison, and Delay Poison can shut them down pretty well. My druid won a few battles by casting Summon Swarm (bat swarm) combined with Hide from Animals + hiding/invisibility. Sleazy, but effective.
#19 post_ironic Mar 03, 2009 2:02:10	In the unlikely event that anyone is paying attention to this thread, [post=17991417]here[/post] is a link to my finalized CoCo Druid. I may post fight results here, if there's even the slightest interest.
#20 sofawall Mar 03, 2009 7:17:48	There is the slightest interest.
#21 post_ironic Mar 11, 2009 11:50:42	First fight is [post=18047110]here[/post]. A surprisingly easy win. If there is continued interest, I may turn this into a CoCo beginner's diary of sorts. The entry under "old fight" was the original combat that was later adjusted due to a minor error caused by some AC enhancement/Touch AC confusion.
#22 jameswilliamogle Mar 11, 2009 12:08:51	First fight is [post=18047110]here[/post]. A surprisingly easy win. If there is continued interest, I may turn this into a CoCo beginner's diary of sorts. The entry under "old fight" was the original combat that was later adjusted due to a minor error caused by some AC enhancement/Touch AC confusion. Very nice!
#23 hogarth Mar 11, 2009 13:26:02	First fight is [post=18047110]here[/post]. A surprisingly easy win. If there is continued interest, I may turn this into a CoCo beginner's diary of sorts. The entry under "old fight" was the original combat that was later adjusted due to a minor error caused by some AC enhancement/Touch AC confusion. I think it would be quite interesting. I've always thought of writing an "Arena Fight Handbook" with suggestions for arena fights (since they're semi-popular), but I've never got off my butt and done anything about it.
#24 post_ironic Mar 11, 2009 13:46:19	While I think I'm a little too new at CoCo to write a full-fledged handbook, I think a beginner's diary might accomplish some similar tasks. It would show what to expect, how things go wrong, how to specify tactics. Since I'm learning as I go as well, I figure it would afford an opportunity for people to learn from my mistakes.
#25 post_ironic Apr 12, 2009 13:17:23	[post=17991417]Niwrad Veridius[/post] has completed his first 3 Fight Cycle in the Core Coliseum. He's achieved 2 wins and one loss. Some observations: 1) The animal companion is truly valuable at low levels. They're fast, obedient, and hard to kill. They can consistently flush out enemies, harry them, and generally irritate your competitors. Definitely a nice bonus for druids in CoCo. 2) Ranged combat is also powerful at low levels. The arena is pretty big, so ranged attacks grant a round or two of attacks against your opponent. Something to consider. 3) Readied actions are very useful. Just make sure your contingency actually goes off. 4) Consumables are very important in CoCo. They allow you to adapt to your enemies tactics and can shut them down entirely. Those little 100 gp potions of Protection Good/Evil might be pricey at low levels, but they can seriously save you against a summoner. Tanglefoot bags, buffing/protective scrolls, etc. are all must haves. The use of magic and psionic activation items tends to encourage cranking UMD skills or taking levels in a casting/manifesting class. 5) Tactics are important. A description of your general tactic helps, but specific contingencies can also save your bacon. Look carefully at your opponents character sheet, so they don't have any surprises for you. Thats all for the moment. I encourage people to check out the Core Coliseum, which now supports both 4E and 3.5! Thanks.